Running the Table

How to beat your uncle in a foreign-policy debate at Thanksgiving dinner.

BY JOSHUA KEATING | NOVEMBER 25, 2009

Afghanistan

We need a surge in Afghanistan. It worked in Iraq!

Nope. Take it from Gen. David Petraeus himself: "We cannot just take the tactics, techniques, and procedures that worked in Iraq and employ them in Afghanistan."

Afghanistan has lower rates of literacy, little experience with central government, a far more complex tribal structure, and a homegrown insurgent movement that remains largely a mystery to Western policymakers and military planners. In any event, to do counterinsurgency effectively, most strategists believe that a ratio of at least 25 troops per thousand local residents is necessary. Even if President Obama complied with Gen. Stanley McChrystal's reported full request for 40,000 new troops, that would bring the ratio up to only 12.5 per 1,000. Counterinsurgency also requires a legitimate central government, which given Hamid Karzai's botched re-election, seems near impossible to achieve in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan is Obama's Vietnam!

Pretty unlikely. As AfPak channel editor Peter Bergen wrote last summer, the number of Taliban is likely in the tens of thousands, compared with the superpower-backed force of half a million that the U.S. military faced in Vietnam. While the 298 U.S. troops killed in Afghanistan this year represents a disturbing increase, at least that many Americans were dying nearly every week at the height of the Vietnam War. Thanks to the end of the draft, the domestic political debate on the war is far less contentious than in the late 1960s as well. None of this is to say that the task won't be brutal and painful, but America's favorite antiwar analogy just doesn't withstand scrutiny in this case.

Afghanistan will turn into an al Qaeda safe haven unless more troops are sent!

That's debatable. First of all, most of al Qaeda's senior leadership is likely across the border in Pakistan. Secondly, it's far from clear how much al Qaeda still needs large swathes of territory in order to operate. Since 2001, the terrorist has largely transformed from a coherent centralized organization into a disaggregated network of cells that, if they communicate with the central leadership at all, do so online rather than at training camps in Afghanistan. Eight years of fighting in Afghanistan has succeeded in pushing Osama bin Laden and his core followers underground, but their message is still spreading to a willing audience. In any case, even if we could turn Afghanistan into Switzerland, the world is full of ungoverned spaces where terrorists could operate. Just look at Somalia or Yemen.

There's no reason for the war in Afghanistan. We should pull out now!

No. The consequences of leaving Afghanistan to its own devices are vastly more serious than advocates of immediate withdrawal often like to admit. The Taliban would likely overrun the tottering Western-backed government, which could conceivably lead to a full-on civil war between Taliban-supporting Pashtuns and anti-Taliban non-Pashtuns in the north of Afghanistan. Pulling out would constitute an abandonment of Afghanistan's population -- particularly its women -- to the whims of the Taliban. Even if most Americans can live with that, they probably can't live with the boost that an Afghan victory would give to the Taliban and various other militant groups in neighboring Pakistan -- a nuclear armed state where the geopolitical stakes are even higher.

ConstructionDealMkting

 

Joshua Keating is deputy Web editor at Foreign Policy.


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MOK

8:08 AM ET

November 26, 2009

Perfect!

Prior to reading this, I was pouring through my head for potential discussions and points to be made with by my more knee-jerk, over-simplifying family members. Now lets see how much I can remember.

 

ALLENELI

9:28 AM ET

November 26, 2009

Afghanistan as al Qaeda's safe haven

Peter Bergen offers a strong critique of the type of argument you put forward. Great piece in TNR: http://www.tnr.com/article/world/the-front

 

KUNINO

5:19 PM ET

November 26, 2009

An al-Qaeda return?

Wonderful article, thank you.

Al-Qaeda didn't particularly want to go there in the first place, but chose Afghanistan as a place abandoned and ignored by the West after it was expelled from Africa.That abandonment is now costing American lives unnecessarily. The long-held idea that the terrorists were nurtured and protected by whatever was passing for an Afghan government at the time, seems an error.

In any case, neither al-Qaeda nor anybody in Afghanistan can now think that the eyes of the West are not on local events.

This would be true even if the foreign militaries were all to withdraw -- unless, of course, the current or future presidents choose to take the carefree or dishonorable Reagan line, and abandon Afghanistan once again.

has anybody yet examined the proposition that the foreign armies, including the Amerivan one, are in part enablers of the current corruption we persist in hanging on Karzai? .

 

MEIMEIMEI

3:10 AM ET

November 27, 2009

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A BALANCED VIEW

9:22 PM ET

November 27, 2009

Regarding putting pressure on Israel

Peace would be the ultimate settlement freeze. It would entail razing many settlements to the ground, and swapping land for the most populated ones that hug the border only. It would entail relinquishing East Jerusalem, and the "suburbs" like Gilo that have been allowed to illegally pop up around it.

All that being said (did you watch Larry David?) asking for peace negotiations is asking for a GREAT deal more than a freeze, unless your intention is to draw out negotiations indefinitely, until the 2 state solution seems hopelessly drowned in settlements and radical settlers.

So far, all Obama has done is ask for something that would be dwarfed by what would occur if negotiations are actually engaged in good faith.

Therefore, if we expect the Israeli public to ever accept a fair resolution (one that entails the actual END of almost all settlements) then their reactions to a request for a freeze should not really matter at all.

It could be that Obama's new approach of describing the envisioned peace plan as one that would end in an almost complete return to 67 borders is the beginning of a more realistic policy regarding Israel.

We have coddled their self destructive behavior for so long that it has finally come back to haunt US is in the form of increased terrorism against the US, and if we allow them (let the popularity numbers be damned) to continue on their current path, it will either mean some new horrible series of terrorist events in either Israel, the US, or both.

For Israels own good, we need to stop allowing their politics to interfere with ours. They need to accept the will of the rest of world, or face an end to aid, sanctions, boycotts, or even embargoes until they see the light

 

AHSON HASAN

2:53 PM ET

November 29, 2009

Anyone thought about the possibility of a military coup in Pak?

Here's my take on the debate and at the very outset I apologize for sounding like a prophet of doom but have we lately paid attention to the Pakistani domestic political situation? We’ve been so busy externally analyzing the onslaught of terrorism but hardly discuss its ramifications within that country. What are the main role-players thinking in terms of actively pursuing a ‘corrective action’ option?

Historically speaking, it is not hard to pinpoint who calls the shots in Pakistan. Obviously the army is a ‘natural’ first and perhaps the only choice. Being the most powerful and the most organized institution in a country where state institutions are in shambles otherwise, various military dictators have ruled Pakistan collectively for more years than the civilian, political leadership in its 62 years of existence.

Why would the army rock the boat and takeover yet another time? Not much has gone Pakistan’s way for the quite some time now.

Relations with the United States: From the position of the most allied ally in the war against terror, Pakistan’s relationship with the US hasn’t been too steady lately. Pakistan’s credibility vis-à-vis taking ‘real’ action against the Taliban has been brought into focus a few times in the recent months.

The Kerry-Lugar Bill (2009) demonstrates that after years of providing financial assistance in the hope of getting Pakistan to move against the militants, Washington’s patience is slowly running out. Measures in the legislation aimed at ensuring the money isn't misspent have been perceived by Pakistanis as levers that Washington can use to exert control over their country.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s remarks on her recent visit to Pakistan show how much US mistrust has grown in recent times. “I find it hard to believe that nobody in your government knows where they (al-Qaeda operatives) are, and couldn’t get to them if they really wanted to, she was quoted as saying to a group of Pakistan journalists. “Maybe that’s the case; maybe they’re not gettable. I don’t know.”

On November 29, 2009, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown urged Pakistan to step up action against al-Qaeda. Brown said: "People are going to ask why, eight years after 2001, Osama bin Laden has never been near to being caught ... and what can the Pakistan authorities do that is far more effective," According to Reuters, Brown also questioned why there had been no evidence to lead to the capture of bin Laden and his second in command Ayman al-Zawahri, despite people in Pakistan knowing where they are.

Relations with the neighbors: Not all of Pakistan’s neighbors are happy; in fact none of them feels safe from Pakistan’s outrageous religious fundamentalists!

India has a history of accusing and proving Pakistan’s involvement in inciting Islamic militancy. The scars of November 2008 Mumbai killings by Pakistan based insurgents are still fresh. However, despite India’s insistence Pakistan has failed to take any mentionable action against the suspects involved or better still hand them over to India.

Iran accuses Pakistan of supporting the Balouch insurgent group, Jundallah, an offshoot of Baitullah Mehsud’s Taliban faction. Tensions rose between Islamabad and Tehran back in May this year when a Jundallah suicide bomber blew himself up at a Shiite festival in Zahedan, Iran. In October, another suicide attack by the same outfit killed top Revolutionary Guard commanders and dozens of others.

China’s 8.5 million Uighurs are a threat to its national security. They are the Muslim terrorists who are linked to similar groups operating camps in Pakistan. Based mostly in the country’s northwest Xinjiang province, the Chinese authorities have had to closely monitor the Uighur places of worship, allegedly financed by Pakistan.

Inability to come up with a conscientiousness anti-terrorism policy: After years of carelessly ignoring the issue, Pakistan has yet to recognize the need for formulating an anti-terrorism policy. It appears that an effective plan to deal with terrorism is not in place. The worst part of this deal is that Islamabad continues to refuse the offer of US troops helping out in the action against the Taliban. This is perhaps an indicator that the Pakistanis do not want to share information with the rest of the world!

Also, Pakistan refuses to recognize that it needs physical outside help and hence has to seek hands on assistance. It is of no use to brush aside one’s disability and be shy about opening up to the world.

Turmoil within the corridors of power: President Zardari is becoming increasingly unpopular. Since he has no credible political background, he seems to be at a loss to get into grips with the situation.

The army seems to be itself in disarray. General Kayani finds himself in a catch-22. Walking on a tight rope, he has to keep the ‘Islam sympathizing’ commanders happy as well as show the world that he’s serious in taking action against the Talban. This is not making matters easy to handle. The US and its allies should understand by now it is politically, socially and religious beyond Pakistan’s ability to curb militancy.

A ‘Saudi Camp’ nation: Pakistan is determined to stay on as a Saudi ally. The Saudis are big-time aid-givers as well as ‘spiritual masters’, aggressively spreading the dreadful concept of Wahabism. The mosques/madrassahs and the vernacular press continue to play a major role in disseminating anti-West, anti-India and anti-Israel sentiments.

In these circumstances, a coup is a real and obvious possibility. And, mind you, it will not be General Kayani doing it. It’ll be some wretched, ‘Islam-oriented’ officer, someone like Zia-ul-Haque who will take over this time. It’ll all about protecting Islam, security of national interests, safeguarding the nuclear program from anti-Islam forces, and, of course, driving the foreign powers away from the ‘land of the pure’.

Once an extremist-Islam sympathizing dictator successfully carries out the coup in Pakistan, the outside world will have to deal with an almost impossible situation. Pakistan is too important to be ignored. Yet, being that it is a failed state, it would have been great if the Western powers were able to turn their respective backs away and move on. Unfortunately that is not the case. It’ll be prudent for all concerned to think about the scenario and strategize ahead of time for a possible coup in Pakistan. After all, we know that Pakistan is an unpredictable polity and hence anything is possible.

Before a destructive militant commander takes over the reins of power in Islamabad, we must preempt such an eventuality and take charge of the situation.

 

SIR_MIXXALOT

8:38 AM ET

November 30, 2009

Fordow facility in Iran

You said : "The inspectors who toured the site said that with only 3,000 centrifuges, it was too small for a civilian nuclear enrichment material but could potentially be used to make fissile material for bombs."

You are wrong, and my uncle, and me, are right.

Here is the article in the bulletin:

http://thebulletin.org/web-edition/features/technical-evaluation-of-the-fordow-fuel-enrichment-plant

Article Highlights

* Revelations about Iran's secret Fordow fuel enrichment plant have been seen as proof that Tehran is pursuing nuclear weapons.

* But the facility's small capacity makes enriching either reactor-grade or even bomb-grade uranium extremely time-consuming and impractical.

* Although it is significant that Iran has officially declared that there are no further secret nuclear facilities such as Fordow inside the country, it's possible that this facility could be one of several that has been either built or planned.

 
January/February 2010