The God Fraud

Best-selling atheist author Sam Harris pushes back against Karen Armstrong's sympathetic take on religion.

JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2010

In her article ("Think Again: God," November 2009), Karen Armstrong discovers that Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and I have mistaken "fundamentalism" for the totality of religion. (Sorry about that.) But do Richard and Christopher really hold religion responsible for "all human cruelty"? That is a surprise. I hadn't realized that they were idiots.

In any case, I am hopeful that Armstrong's winsome depiction of Islam will shame and enlighten them, as it has me. They will discover that Hassan al-Banna and Tariq Ramadan are paragons of meliorism and wisdom, while we are ignorant bigots who know nothing of theology (of course), politics (Christopher, are you listening?), human nature (what's to know?), or the proper limits of science (um ... narrower?).

I can't quite remember how we got it into our heads that jihad was linked to violence. (Might it have had something to do with the actual history and teachings of Islam?) And how could we have been so foolish as to connect the apparently inexhaustible supply of martyrs in the Muslim world to the Islamic doctrine of martyrdom? In my own defense, let me say that I do get spooked whenever Western Muslims advocate the murder of apostates (as 36 percent of Muslim young adults do in Britain). But I now know that these freedom-loving people just "want to see God reflected more clearly in public life."

I will call my friend Ayaan Hirsi Ali at once and encourage her to come out of hiding: Come on out, dear. Karen says the coast is clear. As it turns out, those people who have been calling for your murder don't understand Islam any better than we do.

Armstrong assures us that because religion has existed for millennia, it is here to stay. Of course, the same could be said about a preoccupation with witchcraft, which has also been a cultural universal. The belief in the curative powers of human flesh is still widespread in Africa, as it used to be in the West. It is said that "mummy paint" (a salve made from ground mummy parts) was applied to Lincoln's wounds as he lay dying.

This is now good for a laugh. But in Kenya elderly men and women are still burned alive for casting malicious spells. In Angola, unlucky boys and girls have been blinded, injected with battery acid, and killed outright in an effort to purge them of demons. In Tanzania, there is a growing criminal trade in the body parts of albino human beings -- as it is widely believed that their flesh has magical properties.

I hope that Armstrong will soon apply her capacious understanding of human nature to these phenomena. Then we will learn that though witchcraft has occasionally been entangled with political injustice, an "inadequate understanding" of demonology and sympathetic magic was really to blame.

People will torture their children with battery acid from time to time anyway -- and who among us hasn't wanted to kill and eat an albino? I sincerely hope that my "new atheist" colleagues are not so naive as to imagine that actual belief in magic might be the issue here. After all, it would be absurd to criticize witchcraft as unscientific, as this would ignore the primordial division between mythos and logos. Let me see if I have this straight: Belief in demons, the evil eye, and the medicinal value of a cannibal feast are perversions of the real witchcraft - -which is drenched with meaning, intrinsically wholesome, integral to our humanity, and here to stay. Do I have that right?

Sam Harris
Co-founder, The Reason Project

Karen Armstrong replies:

It is clear that we need a debate about the role of religion in public life and the relationship between science and religion. I just wish this debate could be conducted in a more Socratic manner. Socrates, founder of the Western rationalist tradition, always insisted that any dialogue must be conducted with gentleness and courtesy, and without malice. In our highly polarized world, we really do not need yet another deliberately contentious and divisive discourse.

When I was a student, I was taught to listen to all sides of a question, examine the evidence impartially, and be prepared to change my mind. For many years, I wanted nothing to do with religion and would have agreed wholeheartedly with Sam Harris; my early writing definitely tended to the Dawkinsesque. But my study of the history of world religion during the past 20 years has compelled me to alter my views.

Religious traditions are highly complex and multifarious. Like art, religion is difficult to do well and is often done badly; like sex, it is often tragically abused. I hold no brief for witchcraft or the superstitious trading of body parts. Like many religious people, I do not believe in demons. I abhor violence of any kind, be it verbal or physical, religious or secular.

I have written at length about the desecration of religion in the crusades, inquisitions, and persecutions that have scarred human history. I have also pointed out that, driven by political humiliation and alienation, far too many Muslims have in recent years distorted the traditional Islamic view of jihad, which originally referred to the "effort" required to implement the will of God in a violent world.

But these abuses do not constitute the whole story. Religion is also about the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning; it was not designed to provide us with the same kind of explanations as science, but to help us to live creatively, serenely, and kindly with the suffering that is an inescapable part of the human condition. As such, it continues to appeal to millions of human beings across the globe. To identify religion with its worst manifestations, claim that they represent the whole, and then demolish the straw dog thus set up does not seem a rational or useful way of conducting this important debate.

Historically, this kind of attack only serves to make religious fundamentalists more extreme. Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens have flung down the gauntlet in their spirited -- some would say intemperate -- manifestos against religion. They cannot be surprised if people challenge their critique in the way that I attempted in my article.

In the past, theologians such as Rudolf Bultmann, Karl Rahner, and Paul Tillich enjoyed fruitful conversations with atheists and found their theology enriched by the encounters. We desperately need such interchange today. A truly Socratic dialogue with atheists could help to counter many of the abuses of faith that Harris so rightly deplores.

 SUBJECTS:
 

MIKENYC

8:14 PM ET

January 4, 2010

Religion

I've been waiting for a response like this one. As much as Karen would like to present religion in it's most glorious form - absolute and ever lasting - there isn't anything wonderful about dogma. Lies and pseudo science in the end of the day fail, religions of all kinds will fill that void eventually. World views don't stand the test of time - society shifts and changes - have fun trying to compete against Carl Sagan's "candle in the dark", with the internet ever growing, more and more idealism's will clash, the candle will grow brighter. Just like witch craft was a bunch of bullsh*t, the defense of an unprovable and racist world view will also.

 

GARTHM11

1:04 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Religion

It's hard to disagree with Sam Harris. However, I believe the issue is much larger than religious dogma. Such cognitive illusions commonly result from the sloppy, sociocentric reasoning that teaches us that unquestioning belief is a virtue, particularly when it serves our self-interest. Our primary educational system is particularly negligent for not teaching the critical thinking skills our children need to cope with the frightening irrationality of so many human institutions and the self-serving dogma they propagate.

 

KAROLUS

1:19 PM ET

January 5, 2010

YYOUR JANUARY 5 COMMENTS

yYOU ARE CORRECT IN YOUR ASSESSMENT. AS LONG AS PEOPLE THINK THEY NEED RELIGION, AND THOSE IN POWER KNOW THEY CAN USE IT TO CONTROL THE MASSES, IT WILL PERSIST. YOU MAY FIND THIS WEBSITE OF INTEREST:
http://www.existenceplainandsimple.org KAROLUS

 

SQUEEDLE

3:27 PM ET

January 5, 2010

As a Jew, when I read the

As a Jew, when I read the arguments that the world should abandon religion altogether not a lot different from the rhetoric from people who have found Jesus and have concluded that everyone should be a Christian, or the Muslim who told me that Islam "makes more sense than" Judaism.

These are all dogma. If you truly wish to abandon dogma then you must examine all belief systems evenhandedly. Atheism isn't going to save the world any more than Jesus will, and it's quite clear from history that when atheists or irreligious rulers are running a country that the people aren't generally better off.

This type of dialogue most of you are so wholeheartedly supporting is pure egotism and is hurting your cause, not helping it. It doesn't convince anyone - it puts people on the defensive and makes them dig in their heels. If you raise your hand to strike someone, they'll put their hand up to stop you - it's the same when you attack people with words, regardless of whether you feel justified. I think you all need to ask yourselves what you are trying to accomplish by writing in such an inflammatory way, and then examine whether your method is working. If your goal is to make yourself feel superior, then I'm sure this is working. If your goal is to belittle others, then you are successful. But if your goal is to win hearts and minds, you are all failing utterly. From a more cynical standpoint, you need to keep in mind that you're in the minority here. You're not the ones with the power and you can't just bulldoze people into going along with your desired policies.

I have studied and observed a variety of religions and cultures, and I see many of your viewpoints as culturally imperialistic. What you are actually asking for is to replace the ancient and rich tapestry of human culture with West European materialism, which elevates the new over the old, progress over tradition, indulgence over discipline, reason over intuition, and ambition over spiritual development. The problem with this, is these pairs of values should be regarded as equally important. You pair this with an insistence that there is only one right way, which historically has never worked and it will never work; it just causes more death, pain and suffering.

I have a better way: Rather than telling people what to think, let's teach people HOW to think - to think critically, to self-examine, to be kind and compassionate, and let them make up their own minds.

 

JONJ

3:38 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Judaism vs atheism

Let's see -- Judaism has centuries of tradition and history and causes people to mutilate their baby sons. Atheism has centuries of tradition and history and doesn't. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

JIMW

5:02 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Religion and its ilk

GARTHM11 is right. As Saul Bellow said, "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." As we have seen, the need for illusion is deep, and frankly I would rather have people believe in God and the more benign scriptures than in ecopurity or anthropogenic global warming with the attendant jihad to halt same by destroying technological civilization. And yes, our schools are to blame. They now devote their time to teaching proper opinions, not proper thought processes. They are greatly reinforced by the media. At least religion has been responsible for monumental works of art, literature, music, and incomparable beauty.

 

FRANZJOSEPH

5:19 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Religion

To JonJ: if you are referring to circumcision, it is a pretty common practice anyway now a day regardless of religion and has actual health benefits. So in essence, yes, even atheists may have there children circumcised.

To Squeedle: I agree. I was an atheist for some time yet could not understand why so many other atheists have picked up there talking points from religious extremists. They present a whole new danger altogether... The simple fact in saying that religion is stupid and therefore should not be allowed could even be interpreted as a call for increased loyalty to the state, or other forms of totalitarian thinking. Religion creates communities when done right, and creates deeper interpersonal connections. This of course excludes extremists who form bonds through perversion of religion to justify ignorance, bigotry and hatred. On the flip side atheistic "extremists" are hateful towards religion, which is also equally intolerant, and it also provides an excuse for indulgence and materialist values, which can be just as harmful as any practice of mortification. Ultimately, extremism, whether in the name of a god or no god, is dangerous.

 

SOURAPPPLES

6:39 PM ET

January 5, 2010

@SQUEEDLE You said "When

@SQUEEDLE

You said "When Irreligious or Atheist people rule, the people are not generally better off."

I am guessing you are talking about Stalin.

What you were implying was that because he was an atheist he was a bad ruler. It is clear that this is a Guilt by association logic fallacy. Atheism was not the driving cause of his bad leadership, it did not propel him to do the bad things he did.

For example Hitler and Stalin both had mustaches, but clearly that is not why they were horrible leaders/people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

 

MF

8:40 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Yes, I agree with the last

Yes, I agree with the last comment. Let's get real.

 

CJOHNSONCALIFORNIA

9:00 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Religion and Education

As a public school teacher, I agree that we don't do a good enough job of teaching critical thinking but this is stiffled by political correctness. Believe me, teachers want to teach it but one parent complaint is all it takes to stop any meaningful conversation we try to have in the classroom. Even a discussion about Tom Sawyer got a call from a parent because we discussed the "church goers" views of the town drunk. I'm not making this up. It gets pretty rediculous at times. In my experience it has only been the highly conservative parents who complain. I assigned the kids a "scrapbook" page to make of an imaginary person from society that was part of a "misunderstood" group. One kid chose to do a gay person and the parent threw a fit. The assignment was to just "show" the person as "normal" as any of us. This is middle school btw. So yes. We have failed in teaching critical thinking but we need support to address the tough subjects without rediculous censorships. Many teachers get disheartned and avoid classroom discussions but the discussions are why most of us wanted to be teachers. It is stimulating to observe the students debate but it takes teacher as moderator and that's where things can get tricky because assumptions can be made where none intended and the student goes home with the assumption and that's the end of discussion.

 

FRANZJOSEPH

9:11 PM ET

January 5, 2010

@ sourapples

When was Stalin mentioned? You are assuming a lot in your comment.
But thank you for pointing out a good example of an irreligious ruler.

 

SOURAPPPLES

9:25 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Usually when people mention

Usually when people mention atheist/irreligious leaders from history they mention Stalin. I have been in numerous debates with religious people and they always bring up his name.

You are right though, I am putting words into his mouth. If he would come back and further explain his claim, that would help clear things up.

 

MAROONBLAZER

10:07 PM ET

January 5, 2010

"I would rather have people

"I would rather have people believe in God and the more benign scriptures..."

If you're a homosexual or a resident of sub-saharan Africa today (or a woman or black person in the late 19th/early 20th centuries) then scripture is anything but "benign".

 

PATIENTSPIDER

11:17 PM ET

January 5, 2010

No, life is responsible for

No, life is responsible for great art, literature and music. And when a massive civilization is structured as a theocracy for a couple of millennia and the most powerful institutions in that civilization commission the most talented artists to propagate their central messages through artistic works and when theocratic institutions dominate all major aspects of life you're gonna find that religious themes will predominate pretty much everything.
But how about the present? Religious institutions are in far less control and beautiful things are still being produced every day and the percentage of that output inspired by religious dogma is now shrunken to virtual irrelevance.
For crying out loud, wars and murder are responsible for countless beautiful artistic statements.
Were "Schindler's List" and the "The Diary of Anne Frank," not beautiful? They were inspired by the Holocaust no less.
You're probably fixated on the Sistine Chapel ceiling and other such faith-based productions in your assessments of art and it's history. It makes religious people swoon at the power of their God in inspiring beauty. However, if Michelangelo was busy designing software or civil infrastructure or cures for diseases or jet aircraft at his job in a modern, secular nation state, the painting would never have existed. I'll take a cure for polio or a sewage system over the painting any day. Likewise, if a few billion of us were still trapped under the dirty, brutish, totally unjust conditions of theocratic Medieval Europe we'd probably have Sistines coming out of our wazoos and people would still be wasting their time doing useless things inside of them as they, their friends and their families led wretched lives outside of them.
"I would rather have people believe in God and the more benign scriptures than in ecopurity or anthropogenic global warming with the attendant jihad to halt same by destroying technological civilization."
Does ecopurity mean not wanting to poison ourselves and destroy our life sustaining ecosystem? Is the jihad not a religious phenomenon, but rather, your pet name for climate science?
Yeah, good thing none of these holy crusaders decide to become . . . gulp . . . biologists. Wouldn't that be scary?

 

BBC HATER

3:56 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Religion

We don't need to overthink this issue. Islam is clearly and indisputably a retarded religion and culture. The scariest thing is that, at prevailing birth rates, it will win out over time simply by muslims outbreeding and then outvoting the rest of us.

 

FRANZJOSEPH

11:32 AM ET

January 6, 2010

@ BBC

That is ridiculous. I got that chain mail letter too, and no way could that happen. It's such a xenophobic claim, to make everyone fear Muslims and paint them as an insidious force that is taking over America. Worry more about our own government and its problems, because Muslims only make up less than 1 to 3 percent of the total population in America.

 

DEMOTIC

1:52 PM ET

January 6, 2010

@Squeedle

"What you are actually asking for is to replace the ancient and rich tapestry of human culture with West European materialism"

That's a distortion. What about the enlightenment? It's already at work in our western democracies and laws. And as I'm sure you realise, though it got lost when you were oversimplifying your point, materialism is found in every place where business can grow. I have Indian friends that drive BMW X5 4x4s

 

TDYDIMOS2

3:29 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Squeedle... the egotist.

"As a Jew..." Your opening line speaks volumes on egotism. After all, Jews first declared they were the 'chosen people,' favorites of the biggest, baddest god of all who gave them permission to declare all other humans expendable.
Atheism is not dogmatic. As soon as your god opens up the sky and shows himself to the human race, I'm quite certain atheists the world over will be happy to believe in him. But we're sure as hell not going to give your rabbi 10% in the meantime.
You're 100% right about two things: neither Atheism nor Jesus will save the world. One: because Atheism does not promise any such thing, in fact we think the world doesn't need saving, (in the twisted logic, salvation context), and Two: because Jesus doesn't exist.
As for history, you are dead wrong. People living in Western Industrial countries that are primarily unreligious, (Holland, Scandinavia, Germany, England, Canada) are much better off. They have higher literacy rates, lower crime rates, lower rates of drug addiction and teen pregnancy, universal health care and a lower differential between the highest and lowest standard of living.
Just compare the highly religious U.S. to any one of them. How is the standard of living in Israel, by the way? Still enjoying 1000% inflation? How is it that the yearly GDP of all 22 Arab nations is roughly equivalent to that of Spain? The point is, what advantage can really be claimed by being religious? You have no monopoly on morality or depth of feeling... Atheists are just as capable of compassion and love as believers.
The, "...ancient and rich tapestry of human (Jewish) culture," you are so endeared to is steeped in blood and ignorance. Why not bring back animal sacrifice...? Why not revert to offering up the firstborn...? Should we stone adulterers? Isn't that rich?
It is not atheists who raise their hands to strike anyone, or to steal their land. It seems as if every other line in the bible is another command from your god to smite some less fortunate culture.
Isn't Jehovah the ultimate imperialist? Doesn't he continually promise that Israel will "rule over all the nations of the earth?" And you're upset at harsh words...? Get real!
As for your value pairs, lets consider these: The old way... Earth is flat. The new way... Earth is round... Are these values of equal importance? Should we continue to consider them both when teaching our children? Progress does not automatically translate into sterility... We can still enjoy the beauty of existence while we illuminate reality.
You announce that atheists should be more diplomatic, because they're in the minority.... What does that have to do with anything? A minority of facts is not eclipsed by a majority of unproven beliefs. You have the right to believe the moon is made of cheese. But I also have the right to point out that belief is nonsense. Sorry if that offends you.
You equate atheism and egotism, but you're the one who says, "I have a better way..." You, among all the people of the earth, you have a better way? It doesn't get much more egotistical than that. Atheists are not telling anyone what to believe... you are.

 

TIN-TIN

11:12 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Whatt ?

I read through all this discourse (below, too) and I think "What are they arguing about??" Atheism as some sort of fundamentalism or dogma? Good grief, it's just someone not believing in something. Atheism is belief like not collecting stamps is a hobby. You might say it's a belief in no-god, but please -- there's no end to the non-thoughts of any person in any instant. Don't think about them, that's what they're not there for!

There are plenty of real issues that merit concern, don't worry about what someone else doesn't think.

not sure where this comment will appear in the thread, tried to place it appropriately

 

CRAZYSAILR

1:54 AM ET

January 7, 2010

not collecting stamps

Great analogy, TinTin! I think though, that the folks who are arguing here that the "new atheists" have become as dogmatic as the fundamentalists are responding to the somewhat antagonistic and sarcastic tone of Sam Harris' original post. Karen Armstrong to her credit, I suppose, responded in measured and even handed way, but I think you and I both can agree that Sam is correct on every point he makes in his saractic way, and Karen is a bit naive when she states:

"I abhor violence of any kind, be it verbal or physical, religious or secular. " Well, duh! So do I, but abhorring violence does nothing to stop it. In point of fact, this is a violent and chaotic world we live in, and no one gets out alive.

However, if Homo sapiens had evolved down a different (i.e. less religious and nationalistic) path, we could have been more united in our fight against the violent nature of the world we live in. I think Sam rails against religion because he believes that we would be better off without. I definitely agree, but sadly, I am coming to believe that ridding ourselves of religion will be an evolutionary process, and so it could take either too long or too short a period of time to be a pleasant experience for those of us alive today. (Hint: the "too short" choice would probably mean the extinction of the human race. Talk about abhorrent!)

I still hold out a hope that perhaps we as a species can somehow find the strength to admit we were wrong about god and religion and international politics, put down our weapons (of mass destruction and otherwise) and take up our "weapons of mass creativity". I hope and believe it is still not too late to save this rare, beautiful, and yes, naturally dangerous planet, but the time when it will be to late is getting closer every day that we foolishly choose to fight about things that don't matter, rather than focusing ever more clearly on the things that do. (Energy, water, greenhouse gasses, overpopulation, disease, hunger, arts and science, to name a few of my personal faves)

Wow, talk about naive. I can't imagine where I get the nerve to call Karen Armstrong naive. LOL.

 

SMARTSOCIETY

7:10 AM ET

January 7, 2010

SQUEEDLE

I disagree with just about everything you wrote, but, your last paragraph does make sense:

I have a better way: Rather than telling people what to think, let's teach people HOW to think - to think critically, to self-examine, to be kind and compassionate, and let them make up their own minds.

Yes, Yes, Yes! And lets begin that process by destroying the whole notion of "faith" schools. SO much trouble in the world is caused by indoctrinated adults. But most of them didn't become indoctrinated as adults - from the day they were born they were raised (i.e. indoctrinated) into their particular religion. We can't, as yet anyway, do much to curtail that abuse by parents, but we can work towards SQUEEDLES last paragraph through an enlightened school system that strives to teach children ABOUT religion and forbids absolutely any child being indoctrinated INTO any one of them.

Let's ensure that all religions keep their hands off our children, literally and figuratively, and that they make their sales pitch to adults only.

 

TIN-TIN

3:08 PM ET

January 7, 2010

Squeedle I think you misunderstand

Religious people almost reflexively accuse athiests of being dogmatic because they don't understand the difference between faith-based and evidence-based beliefs. There is a world of difference. Religions require faith. Atheism is simply a lack of faith. Sure there are practical reasons to pitch in with the religious: (1) you may have the feeling that you are looked after, and/or will live forever, etc. (2) you have a tribe which makes reciprocal altruism easier to establish (3) it's conformist and socially encouraged. (4) you get to enjoy the music, art, literature, etc., (5) it's tax-free ...

Just the first has anything to do with GOD existing, and it's the one that requires faith. The rest are pretty self serving, really. "Atheists" are those who don't take it on faith, and in my opinion (having been through and continuing to go through the process), its almost inevitable to shed the belief when you do look for -- and can't find -- evidence -- and when you see how logical alternative explanations are for religious belief. Faith, to put it quite bluntly, is an odd form of ignorance because people are actually proud of it.

There are more GOD-doubters than admit it, I'd bet, because you can get hated for what you don't believe. Why is that, anyway. Atheism is a *serious challenge to all of the religions because it alone can call entirely on reason, does not require a bit of blind faith. With the new discourse opened by the brave work of Harris, Dawkins, Dennett, Barker, Hitchins, Wright and others, it's safe for normal people like me to say "well, yes, I had wondered that myself, never *really been convinced, you have a good point, yes, hmmm, maybe the there *is no GOD." And then the faith will just fall away, at least for those like me who are willing to give up their tax-free tribes, their oh-so-meanful rituals (though you can still do it for fun), the tapestries you mentioned, and all the other trappings. And the hubris, too. That should go.

 

KTSOLARAZ

5:48 PM ET

January 7, 2010

Religion

As long as religion holds dominion over ignorance, and perpetuates the myths to control the masses, then man will suffer the consequences. I can sympathize with Sam Harris' tone - one gets so frustrated with the absurdity of the religion(s), perpetrating hatred and xenophobia, and the selfrighteousness of their belief to the point where they must kill someone who is a nonbeliever, sinner or cartoonist. Islam may have many docile followers, but the religion itself is violent and most of the good works (music, art,science) have been produced in spite of it not because of it.

That one religion is less malevolent than another is no great recommendation - they all perpetuate ignorance for the sake of traditions - many which would be better if forgotten. Mankind has a need for traditions, community, closeness - he doesn't need religion to accomplish it.

 

BILL H.

5:16 PM ET

January 18, 2010

A Socratic Response

Why is the division between mythos and logos “primordial”?
Does the division itself give rise to both mythos and logos?
How can logos be known, but by contrast with mythos?
If logos is made ascendant, does mythos disappear?
Does it become more difficult to see and thus more dangerous?
If mythos is made ascendant, does logos disappear?
Does mythos lose its way?
Would Sam Harris like logos to lead us to the future?
Would Karen Armstrong like to avoid leaving mythos behind?

 

TRISH

7:45 PM ET

January 27, 2010

Stalin - atheist?

Stalin is often used as an example of how bad it would be if atheists were ever to be in political power. Interestingly, he went to a seminary and his mother tried to convince him to be a priest. I think that his regime's posture towards reigion wasn't so much about promoting atheism as it was opposing any persons or organizations that could threaten his power. If instead of the Russian Orthodox Church, the biggest organization in Russia outside the government had been the Russian Orthodox Atheist Meetup, he would have crushed that organization. He was notoriously paranoid and feared even his close associates - as well as giving those associates good reason to fear him.

 

MOWAHID.KIANI

9:15 PM ET

January 4, 2010

Religion...it starts with Believing

I agree with Karen in many aspects. As far as the religion is considered, many societies haven't left a choice for baptised or muslimized or any other -ized kids to explore different religions. I don't agree to this because in this particular way they are forcing them to believe, what they believe...either right or wrong.
There is a very revered Sufi Philosopher known as Imam Ghazali, in his book one can find a whole chapter on how to groom a kid into becoming a "proper muslim"... (not the ones blowing up these days). That is almost a century old text... it requires you to do stuff thats unthinkable today. But the approach is completely analytic and deals with psychology rather than mythos and logos.
And what we truly need is a debate. Karen is absolutely right there. But just debating within the boundaries of a conference hall won't do. There is a need for a bigger platform... common man has to hear what the uncommon people think.
Well, alot can be said about religion, but what about the believing part. It is important, because if a person believes in a God that is cruel and wants blood then he/she will end up taking lives for the cruel deity. But the beauty of belief lies in this mystic idea that it is no different than a dream. Many do dream but only few realize the grandeur of their dreams. So spreading the messages of peace or godlessness won't help. You'll have to make them believe in a just god and nothing else.

 

TDYDIMOS2

3:24 PM ET

January 5, 2010

For Mowahid.Kiani

You start by saying you disagree with societies that force kids to believe one way or another and deny them the right to explore other religions, but you close by saying, "You'll have to make them believe in a just god and nothing else." It may be hard for you as a believer, but try to make up your mind.

In between, you wander on about dreams and the importance of belief. Dreams reflect reality, but they are not real. If beliefs reflect dreams, then I'd say belief is twice removed from reality. There are people who still believe the world is flat... would you say they were having a beautiful dream? Or would you say are they ignorant of a proven fact?

You couldn't separate their belief in a flat world from that ignorance any more than you could separate belief, or practice, from religion. Belief in gods, cruel or otherwise, in the face of an absolute lack of evidence does nothing to ennoble the human race. It only leaves us mired in ignorance.

This is what the so called new atheists are trying to point out... It is belief itself that is the problem. Belief in mythical beings with secret plans and grand dreams, is no different than belief in a flat earth... no different than a Peter Pan, pixie dust fairy tale.

More than any other motivation, it is belief itself that has pitted humans against one another for five millennia of mayhem... in the name of imaginary beings. Belief has held back the human race and crushed man's spirit with guilt and self incrimination...

The logic of belief in such gods is beyond ridiculous. They create us, imperfect as we are, then punish us... for acting like imperfect beings. God supposedly gives us free will, yet he threatens us with eternal damnation if we choose to exercise it. It doesn't matter one iota what you believe about god if, in the sacred writings of that faith, he calls for violence.

God knows everything in advance, so even before the universe was created he knew exactly who would believe and who wouldn't. Therefore, he's created billions of people he knows will choose not to believe in him and who will be punished in hell... forever. That is about as violent as you can get.

PLEASE! This is primitive nonsense and the human race must abandon these bloody superstitions before we suffer any more needless agony. Apologist Armstrong calls for a less 'contentious debate...

OK, all of us atheists will put down our harsh words...

But first, GOD and all you Believers, put down the bombs, missiles, guns, swords, fire and brimstone... No more acid to the face or honor rape, no stoning or genital mutilation, no more pedophilia, and no more extortion by threats of eternal damnation... No more land grabbing, slavery or genocide either!

 

KAT

2:21 AM ET

January 6, 2010

For TDYDIMO S2

TDYDIMO S2,

God is really a frog named, Ralph (Ha-Ha)! Religious brainwashing started when I was a child. My brain isn't wired for religion so I'm okay...never needed therapy.

I feel it's child abuse to brainwash children. I felt some fear because I thought the adults were crazy, and then what is a child supposed to do?

I call this planet a funny farm. Humans will drop religion in a few thousand years if they haven't killed each other off. Be patient.

 

TIN-TIN

9:25 AM ET

January 8, 2010

Kiani

I may agree with your goal but have a couple of problems with your reasoning. The most popular God today is all over the board when it comes to morality -- whatever interpretation you might make of the scriptures is a human interpretation. If you turn to the scriptures for the word of god you turn to yourself, just add a little righteousness.

When you conclude "make them believe in a just god and nothing else" it gives me the shivers. "Make them believe" which goes against evidence-based belief. "a Just god" could mean ANYTHING, holy cow! ... "and nothing else..." sorry. Really? Whatt!?

 

JDULIN

9:39 PM ET

January 4, 2010

Religion will survive

Although I personally came to the realization that it is very hard for an educated and observant person to believe any religon and by no means consider myself religious, I must say that I agree mostly with Karen Armstrong. While religion certainly fuels violence, it does just that. Religion provides an excuse to commit violence and it fuels the flames of hate for ongoing conflicts, but I think it is very hard to find even one conflict that started completely on the basis of faith, and did not have some other factor such as land, wealth, or oil adding to the war. It is not a very good catalyst to start totally new battles. It would also be naive to say the current wars had nothing to do with oil and American interventionist foreign policy.

Furthermore, it is doubtful that faith will ever truly die in the world. I think that many of these fire-breathing atheists don't recognize religion's ability to, for lack of a better term...evolve. For instance, the ancient bible advocates polygamy and genocide in many cases. However, no reasonable denomination would even think of preaching those practices today if it wanted to survive. Over time, mainstream religion will adapt to fit modern principles and moral codes and survive, just as it has done in the past.

 

QUEEF

1:16 AM ET

January 5, 2010

Blah blah blah

These things never go anywhere truly productive. Armstrong wants to defend the idea of "pure" religion on the basis that human beings have wanted really, really badly for there to be supernatural things in the universe. Harris wants to point out (rightly so) the dangerous things that come alongside certain flavors of supernatural thinking. At the end of the day, I think it's best for both to just condemn violence, beliefs which fly in the face of sound science, institutional sexism/racism/homophobia, dismantling the separation of church and state, profiteering off of despair, misuse of history, and misuse of the word "know" (such as in "I know that there is an afterlife" when anyone with any critical thinking skills whatsoever knows that, so far, that is a pretty dubious claim). Otherwise, whatever.

 

CRAZYSAILR

2:42 PM ET

January 6, 2010

I quite agree with QUEEF. The

I quite agree with QUEEF. The best reponse to one who claims to "know" things which clearely are not known (e.g. there is an afterlife), or one who reacts in anger and frustration to the fact that religion still exists in our world, as Sam unfortunately did in his rant to Karen Armstrong, is to be as humanistic as possible. Lets all keep our eyes on the ball here people.

Our world is coming apart at the seams, and what we need is less war, polution, murder and violence of all stripes, and more justice, altruism, gun control and population control.

BTW, I am not speaking here of population control brough about by the practice of the things that we need less of, but rather by the application of education and resource managment principles which should be self evident to every thinking person on this planet, but sadly remain hidden to most by our blind spots to the world around us. These blind spots in many cases are enhanced by our species appearent need to believe in a power higher than ourselves, when the reality is that as the prime species on this planet, there is no higher power than our own to which we can turn.

I pray to us it's not too late to change our world for the better by caring more about each other. Those few that would try to bring down the modern world through acts of terror not-withstanding. They deserve justice too, yet we can't be opposed to killing in defense of the species as a whole. True justice is kind, blind, and never out of line.

 

FRANZJOSEPH

10:51 PM ET

January 6, 2010

true justice is also

true justice is also relative.

 

CRAZYSAILR

12:33 AM ET

January 7, 2010

To "true justice is also" from FranzJoseph

Correct. This is what I meant by "never out of line" Justice, when applied fairly always seeks to be a proportional response. In other words, justice should always be deserved.

Unfortunately, in our world, this seems about as rare as a red diamond.

 

KOZMOZ4

7:57 AM ET

January 5, 2010

Interesting choice of words by Karen Armstrong

She likens religion to art, which is a creation of men. She says that religion is hard to do. She also says that religion was designed as a guide in the search for meaning. After reading Karen Armstrong's article, I have the feeling that she believes that religion, and its specific varieties, are creations of men as a result of their philosophical search for meaning and improvement. Hence, that the holy books, per ce, are basically imperfect lies based on good intentions. And that people who adhere to the laws of religion to the letter, are of course misguided by those imperfections or by those who abuse or misunderstand these wonderful lies. That religion is best followed by taking in only the moral code, not the teachings.

What she is suggesting is highly subjective; anyone can derive their own set of morals from any of the books, which would result in more people being mislead and abused, the very same result that she shies away from. Perhaps she implies, as was the custom in the ancient Roman times, that only the elite should do the debating and deriving conclusions or, to use one of her verbs, doing.

I think she should first do some soul searching and decide if she is religious or just elitist. Then she might start making some sense.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

1:54 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Nailed it!

Armstrong is absolutely an elitist. (All vowel-starting words, weird) She has decided what's the best way to interpret scriptures, just like every other believer, and said everybody else is wrong. Her brand of elitism is called apophatic theology, if you're interested.

 

BUYPARTISAN

2:04 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Karen A's Omission

While Karen’s statement is true, she omitted the most important reason that religion was invented by man, Power. Power over his fellow man, without deserving that position. What brighter vestment could any (wannabe) person of authority wear than the guise of talking for and with the full approval of the Creator of the Universe? There is nothing that this person has to work for, no physical requirement, no mental requirement, no monetary requirement; they only have to speak convincingly.
Clergy will decode the Bible for you and explain what it REALLY means, regardless of what you have heard before. No questions are allowed, for who are you to query the word of God.
That is what you call instant power, the power of religion.

 

ANTIDOGMA

6:23 PM ET

January 5, 2010

God - Gene theory

I agree that religion is primitive politics and that politics demand control, authority, power and profit over people.

I will go out on a limb and share my genetic-behavior theory of 20 years:

The mystery of a supernatural god lies in our ego's relationship with our ever-evolving genes. Assuming that our human gene-banks (46 chromosomes) light up and shut down as we evolve (age) and that feelings are the vehicles of communication between our conscience ego and our programmable genetic hard-wiring / software, maybe the mysteries of a supernatural god can be resolved and formulated. Assuming that - experience triggers genes and that genes trigger experiences - our genes may be the mysterious gods that we claim to be so personal. Our ego, by interpreting these mysterious feelings / god-like influences, bring all these gods down to one god. Unfortunately, for our fragile (I am the value, I am the authority, I am entitled) egos, this theory gives our illusive, on-again, off-again genes credit of much of our conflictive, do-want / don’t want emotions and our observable attitudes and behaviors.

What is a theory? I perceive that a theory is another, definite, guaranteed maybe.

Regards, Gary DeVaney (The God Murders)

 

MOHAIR.SAM

10:01 AM ET

January 5, 2010

This debate will never go anywhere

It's absolutely pointless. Nothing to be gained, for the theistic or atheistic, by even discussing religion and its place in society. Believers will believe; disbelievers don't; somehow we all muddle along. As for violence, humans have been slaughtering each other en masse since the beginning, and most of the 20th century's unparalleled achievements in total warfare and mass murder happened without reference to religion at all, so let's all drop the canard that religion, or atheism, causes horrific violence. Humans are violent, venal, monstrous, and cruel, regardless of what they believe materially or immaterially about themselves and the world around them. The best we can do is make sure we can defend ourselves adequately from each other's worst tendencies toward violence, as neither side has proven particularly adept at tolerating dissent.

 

CITYWORKER

1:04 PM ET

January 5, 2010

But it doesn't have to be that way

Although I agree it would be a long time coming before reason prevails, I do believe civilization could do better with the acceptance that there is no afterlife. We each have but one life, to live as fully as we can for our own satisfaction and happiness, and one life to leave to the rest of the world, to create a lasting legacy of whatever it is we are individually good at. Nothing else is out there, it is only here and now that matters. I was formerly a born-again, bible believing charismatic Christian. Though I was totally devout, I always had questions and doubts. (Questions are frowned upon and answers defy reason). I could not down deep accept that all people who didn't believe like me (accept Jesus as LaS) would go to hell. I saw so many people who were devout in their own different religions and in a long drawing out process over years, rejected what I was being spoon fed from preachers, teachers (went to bible college), and accepted that there is no God. I was still afraid to call myself an athiest (absence of belief) until I read Dawkins, Harris, etc. The scales are off my eyes and I now live my life to the fullest, knowing it's the only one I have, appreciating my loved ones, my friends, my animals all the more and taking nothing for granted. No more guilt, no more worry that this thought or that little infraction has put my afterlife in jeopardy. No more schizophrenia, wondering if that thought in my head came from god or the devil. What a waste of time and energy! I feel so badly for the young people who get their heads full of all that and waste their entire lives trying to please a ghost. Athiesm does not corrupt the individual, it does just the opposite - it frees us to live a moral, full life.

 

GREENTHING

1:42 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Well said

Almost ditto on the above for me. Sam and Richard did a lot for me. Finding them was like finding family. I was born into a "hell-fire and brimstone" baptist family and had always believed but had the nagging doubt that we were "right" and everyone else was going to hell. I went to church and rarely missed for years and years. I first read Sam Harris' "End of Faith" and that was it...it was the end of my faith.

No more torturing myself over every little "sin" and lack of enough worshipfulness while I tried to live in our modern world. I would have dreams of being chased by the devil through my house and wake up shreaking because I didn't think I was being "his obedient servant." In religion, it seemed to me, that I could never be good enough and that if anything bad befell me, it was my fault for not being sufficiently christlike.

I enjoyed both of the essays. I love Sam's witty sarcastic style. He makes his points with humor and I laughed out loud at the first paragraph. Ms. Armstrong, you are a good writer as well, but just because you've changed your mind, as have I, doesn't mean you're now right, even if it took 20 years and it only took me a few hours. Doesn't mean I'm right either, of course, but it feels so much better to me to have put down the bible and be free to think for myself and no longer be afraid that I'm going to burn in hell. I'm going to die and it is going to be just like it was for me, awareness wise, as it was before I was born. Nothingness. I will just cease to exist. Why is this so difficult to handle? It really makes you enjoy everything just a bit more it seems to me.

Good luck to you both and may you both keep writing because maybe just maybe, someone will come along who will be freed from the non-sense by reading the responses.

 

MAROONBLAZER

10:14 PM ET

January 5, 2010

"...total warfare and mass

"...total warfare and mass murder happened without reference to religion at all, so let's all drop the canard that religion, or atheism, causes horrific violence."

Actually, it was dogma that was responsible for most (all?) of the killing in the 20th century, and before. Religion is a kind of dogma.

 

POCKETS

11:50 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Its a matter of time

I have read most of the comments with interest and agree with the vast majority. Its great that people can let their ideas and concept of a god come thru. Even as a very young boy I doubted, and raised as a Catholic, that was not easy.
But it persisted, it was just an awareness at a very young age that religion was a scam. I tried to go along with it but lingering doubt persisted. I felt a real sense of relief when I finally admitted that I too will drift off to nothingness and be the better for it. No false illusions about a 'promised land'. No virgins waiting on the other side, no milk and honey. Just nothingness. What that did for me was put each day into perspective, it could be my last day on earth,so how do I choose to spend it. I think helping others come to the same conlusion is a worthy goal, or just being open in conversation about the subject.
No sense in rabble rousing, those who believe in peasant folk lore will remain ignorant and those who see it for what its worth, will hopefully understand and help those that don't, let's hope its only a matter of time before the ignorant see the truth.
Keep up the train of thought Sam. Don't stop telling it like it is.

 

F1FAN

10:28 AM ET

January 5, 2010

I'll Say It Again

Faith is still just willful ignorance, and once you've accepted as truth something which cannot be proved you've already suspended critical thinking. This of course does not allow for Socratic debate about religion which is why those who have embraced faith often need to kill those who haven't or who haven't embraced their particular brand of faith. The Socratic debate needs to be about religion itself and how likely gods and deities are to exist, the debate needs to be about applying critical think to god and religion. Prove there is a god and then we can have the debate about what part he or she should play in society.

'The Jews, the Muslims and the Christians, They've all got it wrong. The people of the world only divide into two kinds, One sort with brains who hold no religion, The other with religion and no brain. '

- Abu-al-Ala al-Marri, 10th century Syrian poet

 

BAJIMAX

12:59 PM ET

January 5, 2010

That's a pretty awesome quote

That's a pretty awesome quote even if this whole mess is more about deep honesty than brains

 

DANGEROUSTALK

10:43 AM ET

January 5, 2010

two of my favorite authors

Sam Harris and Karen Armstrong are two of my favorite authors. As an atheist, I frequently recommend The History of God and The Bible: A Biography to my Christian friends. I also recommend Letter to a Christian Nation.

Is all of religion to blame for all the world's problems? I think there are two too many uses if the word "all" here. The fact is that we can debate mythos and logos all day, but how many religious believers really ponder about such things? Not many. On a practical level, religion in general has been and continues to be a destructive force in human society. Not all religion, but certainly, an extremely large majority of religion has been and continues to be a threat to human progress, human liberty, and even human survival on this planet.

There are good things about religion however as Armstrong has mentioned (the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning). However, as Harris has mentioned in The End of Faith, we can do all of those things without believing in superstitions and mythologies without sufficient evidence.

Why should religion have the monopoly on these things. Atheists can and do quest for transcendence, tend to embrace the discipline of compassion usually more then the average god-believer, and search for meaning in a more existential way rather then just forfeiting that meaning to a deity often blindly.

I think Harris and Armstrong can agree that we need to educate religious believers about science and history. Once they learn and understand these things they will either end their faith or transcend the mythos in favor of the logos. But the important part here is not the ends, but the means. Education is the key.

Both Harris and Armstrong are great educators and I strongly support them both.

 

THEKIDDE

12:28 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Growing up in Mormon country

As a premed student at the U of Utah, I queried a mormon student about the contradictions of his faith and the realities of science courses. His reply was that he just separated them in his mind so there was no conflict between his religious delusions and reality. Okay, but when delusion leads to murder, incest, rape, misogyny, imperialism, pillage, greed, etc. it is time to step into reality and forgo b.s. for the golden rule - better than any god I've ever heard of.

 

TODDKSHACKELFORD

12:29 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Thank you Sam!

Thank you Sam for taking the time to reply to Armstrong's nonsense.

 

FRANZJOSEPH

5:29 PM ET

January 5, 2010

If only...

If only atheists could be less bitter and more eloquent... I would have taken his response more seriously. Her reply was cool and even keeled. I don't care if she is for religion but at least she can reply without having to make childish jabs to show how witty she is.

 

EARL WORICK

5:33 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Thanks to all Atheists

I will always remain on the side of Sam Harris. We live in a society where myths prevail and give the people a false impression of their worth and capabilities. I find it both amazing and shocking to witness in Christians their absolute belief that prayers are answered. It becomes even scarier when it is practiced in our congress and with all presidents. My one big hope in life, which is impossible, is to see what the world would be like without any religions. I believe we would weed out most of the people whom we don’t need anyway; those left would stand on their own two feet and deal with the good and bad without a pet rock or a mystic God. If Islam did not exist, there would never have been a suicide bomber.

 

EVN

2:28 AM ET

January 6, 2010

If only

she answered the questions.

 

ZILCH1110

2:34 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Agreed. To quote an

Agreed. To quote an irreverent man: “It is not he who gains the exact point in dispute who scores most in controversy -- but he who has shown the better temper.” (Samuel Butler) Armstrong wins on that count, hands down. Of course, it's difficult to show a good temper when you think your opponent is coddling cretinism--it might help for Harris to see religion as more than pure idiocy (and it SHOULD be seen as more than that). It helps to note that many of the world's most brilliant thinkers have been religious, orthodox and otherwise. A few I've been challenged by: G.K. Chesterton, George MacDonald, William Blake; Gary Wills and Flannery O'Connor are in the dock. Brilliant skeptics abound too, but why not mix in a few strong voices contending for the Faith, and take them seriously? It is easy to abuse, less easy to understand.

P.S. The "new atheists" are pamphlateers carrying on the tradition of Thomas Paine (a religious man, in his way); pamphlets have their place, but there are better reads. Take Walter Kaufmann, a Princeton scholar and incisive atheist, now almost totally neglected. His Religion in Four Dimensions is one of the most enlightening takes on Religion I've ever enountered (that work is now hard to find, but his Critique of Religion and Philosophy can be found in most Barnes and Noble; check out the three dialogues). I wish I could get Armstrong and Kaufmann in the same room together: the debate would be civil and profound. Rationalist assassins set their sights narrowly, and while this may be useful for creative invective, it is bound to miss much of some very complex pictures.

 

PURELL

12:33 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Same Arguments

If you are intellectually honest, you can clearly see that religion is man-made. You may still enjoy the many aesthetic contributions that have been made as a result. No one advocates otherwise. Just stop lying to yourself and others.

 

BOB LAVELLE

12:35 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Have mercy!

I am a fan of Ms. A., but she her discussions of religious tradition tend to veer in the direction of preciousness. She wants to spare everyone's feelings and seems often to make everyone's point at once, which is the same as no point at all. This is no time for equivocation.

 

FLATIRON

7:42 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Help me out here...

Just what does this parting sentence from Ms. A's reply even mean?

"A truly Socratic dialogue with atheists could help to counter many of the abuses of faith that Harris so rightly deplores."

How can any dialog with atheists do anything to alter the situation with abuses of faith?

The atheists aren't/weren't even involved in the abuses...

 

JOLIM

12:35 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Does transcendence require dogma?

Religion's apologists often offer to Armstrong's argument, that "religion is also about the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning...."

These are important pursuits; however, they can be found in many sources that are not tainted by calls to violence, intolerance and willful ignorance.

We can find transcendence, compassion and meaning in philosophy, novels, family and friends. We don't have to believe in bronze-age mythologies, endure disfiguring rituals and engage in suppression of or violence against others.

 

RYANATL

12:37 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Be Civil...

I'm a big fan of Sam's, but believe these types of sarcastic diatribes do little to further dialogue. I have to agree with Karen that a Socratic exchange would be more successful in encouraging a broader audience to think critically about religious practices (that's the goal, right?)

 

PIERO

1:12 PM ET

January 5, 2010

The tone is not the message

I wish that Karen Armstrong and people such as yourself would stop whining about bad manners and sarcasm, and offered instead a reasoned response to Sam's arguments.

 

SALAMANTIS

2:03 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Oops!

Umm...remember what happened to the original Socrates before you start demanding Socratic dialogue from atheists; he was forced by the pious Athenians to drink hemlock for daring to question the objective existence of their gods.

 

JDHUEY

2:47 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Harris was (and is) civil

I contend that the sarcasm used by Harris to show the absurdity of Armstrong's position was perfectly civil. He did not call HER any names or impugn her motives. He did show that her position is contradicted by reality and he did show that Armstrong's criticism of the so-called New Atheists was really just a hollow bit of mis-direction. Showing how a persons words are just drivel is not uncivil it is just straightforward and honest.

 

EVN

1:17 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Socrates?

Was he not the chap who used a method of question and answer? Sam Harris asked a few pointed questions. What are the answers? It is no use advocating the Socratic Method when the advocate refuses to use it.

 

CLAIREDBARRETT

12:42 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Who is the 'Fraud'? Us or God

I have yet to discover s ‘religion that is a quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning.’ The word ‘religion’ shares an epistomological root as ‘religature’, knot, and yoga, all which mean to ‘reconnect; mend’. It is painfully obvious that virtually brand of religion today falls far short of that mark. The word ‘sin’ literally means ‘to forget’. It seems to me that if we were ‘born into sin’ as so many would have us believe, then our most significant spiritual quest is ‘to remember’.

What is it that the human family is so terrified of remembering? How to be loved, love in return, and thus live creatively, serenely, and kindly without the suffering that we have been taught to believe is an inescapable part of the human condition? Einstein said, ‘the most incomprehensible thing about our universe is that it is comprehensible.” Perhaps when we remember we will discover that our reprehensible behaviour is merely a long engrained bad habit. As a scientist applying principles of physics to social science, I dare to live a life that is both meaningful and logical, this for me the ever evolving questioning and answering that is a spiritual quest. Imagine what the world would be like if only a conscious few had the courage (cour ‘age—an expansive heart) and were willing to honour uniqueness and celebrate our ‘sameness’, and then from this place and space, cooperate and work together co-create an equally coherent world…

 

FLATIRON

8:31 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Who's the fraud? That would be Us

Well, it's one in the same actually...

In our nearly blind quest to discover the answers to our endless preoccupation with "why" questions, Science is really about "how", we invented "God" with our thinking organ.

It's us, plain and simple. Well, It's in us. We aren't supernatural by any stretch, but we can sure crank out those figments of our imagination.

And after centuries and centuries those figments have become well-honed (and published) stories woven with grandeur and illogic to be floated upon our boundless capacity for denial.

We ache to "find ourselves" when the ignored task is to create ourselves. We should refocus our efforts to know the deities -- onto our actual growth as fairly self-aware animals.

Until we stop failing the Sendak test, "Tell them anything you want. Just tell 'em if it's true.", we'll be stuck right here at this same old popsicle stand.

 

POWDERHOG

12:44 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Karen misses the fundamental point

At one point Karen Armstrong makes the incredibly naive and irresponsible statement, "as such, it (religion) continues to appeal to millions of human beings across the globe". Appeals? More accurately it continues to be brainwashed into the undeveloped brains of millions and millions of children by the most trusted authority figure in their lives, their parents. Told from infancy that God punishes and sends non believers to burn in eternal hell fire. Wake up Karen! Religion only "appeals" to those brainwashed by the society they were born into. The fact that so many people still believe is not a testament to how "appealing" religion is, but a testament to how incredibly powerful it is as a brain washing tool on children.

 

WOROBI

12:57 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Pointless discussion

For us “adults” it seems pointless to explain a young child that there are no monsters in the closet. Although we are 100% certain, it physically proven and there is no reasonable doubt that there are no monsters, we will never fully convince a kid of the tangible fact. Until the kid grows up, gets educated and has an understanding of reality. We do grow out of the monster-in-the closet in 15 to 20 years as individuals. As a society it’s just taking us a few million years to get this type of education. But we get closer and every time at a faster pace and thanks to reasonable individuals like Harris we get a better chance to speed this learning with educated facts and research. Thanks Sam.

 

TIN-TIN

9:51 AM ET

January 8, 2010

Monster in the Closet!

Worobi, that's a new one, excellent metaphor. I've compared God to a Santa Claus that kids are taught to believe in, but with God the parents never break the news. The Monster in the Closet is the other part of it, lol. Very true, very true.

Raised liberal Quaker, discovered Tom Paine's "The Age of Reason" at 15, always had doubts and uncertainty -- was a sort of "who knows?" bit-wishful agnostic, until Sam Harris' End of Faith really cleared my head, thank you Sam! I clearly remember the relief of finally feeling certain that there is no Monster. And it's still a good feeling!

 

DAPHNE

1:03 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Sam and Karen

Religion is a form of control, of men over women, of parents over children. Otherwise, it is for the childish and afraid. It gives no permanent relief, if it did, then churches would all be out of business by now. So they have to keep you afraid, then appear to comfort you.
The problem with “reason” is that life refuses to be reasonable. Stuff happens, and to assume we can plan cause and effect is ludicrous on the face of it.
That’s no reason to retreat into gods and witchcraft, and books that claim to have ‘answers.’

 

TILBERIAN

1:09 PM ET

January 5, 2010

The real problem

Of course Harris is right when he says religious people do a lot of bad things and Armstrong is right when she says they do a lot of good things. As she pointed out, religion is a big institution with more than enough room inside to hold the full range of human behaviour. Heck, even the Nazis weren't all bad. The spotlight in this discussion is off the mark.

Faith is the problem, and the principle that beliefs created and held through faith are just as valid as those created through reason. Look at Harris' list of grievances toward religion and Armstrong's list of benefits. In each case, the bad actions come from erroneous, superstitious beliefs held on faith, and the good things come from a reasoned approach to bettering one's life or the lives of others. Where religions encourage rational contemplation of meaning and relationships, they are not a problem. Politics and science can be just as pernicious as religion when they are poisoned by faith-based beliefs. People can find justification for evil deeds through reason, but it is much harder than doing so through faith.

So the question becomes, do religions promote faith?

 

GPAGAN

1:14 PM ET

January 5, 2010

doing bad things

good people do good things. Bad people do bad things, but it takes a religion for good people to do bad things........

We don't need religion in order to be moral, altruistic, or generous. Religious dogma in and of itself may not be detrimental, but those who apply it to justify their own "righteous" acts are completely disillusioned.

 

JONJ

3:43 PM ET

January 5, 2010

The real problem

"So the question becomes, do religions promote faith?"

Er...Yes? Unless of course you are Karen Armstrong and want to weasel out of the implications of your religious belief by asserting that God doesn't actually exist -- except, you know, he's still really IMPORTANT and stuff...

With 'friends' like Armstrong, religion really doesn't need enemies.

 

PASSACAGLIA

9:39 AM ET

January 6, 2010

The Nazis were not all bad? Is that right?

For posterity's sake, please list the Nazis who were not "bad."

 

JOHNUS0

1:13 PM ET

January 5, 2010

The God Fraud

I was told that the reason we exist it's because we produce some kind of energy that some entity uses. For us to produce it, we have to be excited somehow, whether by pain, love, anguish, sex, fights, you name it. We even get excited when we dream. The way we are programmed causes our state of mind and there isn't much we can do about it. When you think that we all know how bad wars are and that eventually they end and things go back to what they were before or worse, and still we keep on creating them and following the leaders like lemmings, it gives you an idea of how fixed our purpose in life is. Religion is another form of excitement. Everything else it's irrelevant. As long as we think with tunnel vision where we are the masters of our fate, we won't be able to understand why we are the way we are.

 

MAROONBLAZER

10:24 PM ET

January 5, 2010

The God Fraud?

"I was told that the reason we exist it's because we produce some kind of energy that some entity uses."

Exactly who told you that? Did you just accept it on faith? Have you questioned it? Tested it? If not then you're being dogmatic. Religion is a kind of dogma.

 

RITAVILLE

1:15 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Sam Harris is childish . . .

First off, I am an atheist.

I have read both of Sam Harris' books and have watched many of his lecture/debates in person. I find him to be insufferable. However, I am quite happy that he made public this wholly embarrassing article. Since the publication of his books Harris has had his @ss handed to him repeatedly in one debate after another -- essentially because he doesn't possess the tools necessary to rise above ponderous repetition. The childish sarcasm above illustrates his frustration with the continuing non-effect his arguments have on scientific community as a whole -- it is also a strong indication of his future contribution to science, if there is one (there hasn't been one so far).

Can any of us fathom Bertrand Russel writing this article? Would Russel soil intelligent, adult debate by responding to his critics with petulant sophistry?

 

GPAGAN

1:27 PM ET

January 5, 2010

You Da Man, Sam!

I pledge allegiance to Sam and his being a harbinger of Reason, not under God, and justice for all...
Sam Harris should be praised for his efforts. He has been tireless in encouraging free thought. Dialogue like this one is your litmus. He has shown courage by putting his best foot forward, subjecting himself to the scrutiny of those evn on his own team...
Those who criticise - what have you done lately?

 

DADAMAX

1:41 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Agree

I agree with you about Harris. Of the atheist square of Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennet, and Harris, Harris is definitely the weakest in the area of argument. All four, however, seem a bit uncivil in their discourse (although I do love to see Hitchens tear into an opponent). I think the most Socratic book (to meet Armstrong's conditions) by an atheist is The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality by French philosopher Andre Comte-Sponville. It is extremely well-written with little or no hyperbole and doesn't contain one single personal attack: recommended reading for both atheists and the religious.

 

DANGEROUSTALK

1:56 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Teapot

Have you heard about Russell's Teapot?

Also, I think Sam is one of the best debaters. His standard opening about the three defenses of religion is right on the mark. In fact, Armstrong (who I also love) seems to be arguing for religion's usefulness rather than whether it is true.

Third, Harris is working in neuro-science to understand morality. If successful, this will be groundbreaking.

 

RITAVILLE

2:01 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Thanks!

Thank you for the book recommendation. I found it on Amazon, purchased it, and I am looking forward to reading it.

Cheers

 

RITAVILLE

2:08 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Point taken . . .

"Harris is working in neuro-science to understand morality. If successful, this will be groundbreaking."

I respect this. But I do feel that Harris shows that has an increasingly heavy chip on his shoulder.

 

RITAVILLE

2:09 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Point taken . . .

"Harris is working in neuro-science to understand morality. If successful, this will be groundbreaking."

I respect this. But I do feel that Harris shows that he has an increasingly heavy chip on his shoulder.

 

CAMOGUARD

2:13 PM ET

January 5, 2010

It's not how you say it

It's what you say. My issues with religion are Sam's. I get just as frustrated by religion inspired bullshit like when abortion doctors are assassinated. I get just as frustrated with religions that decide not to include a healthy understanding of the known world in with their mysticism. It's like these days in America, those that can't do form a church.

It's okay to scoff at idiots. And jihaders and albino-eaters are as idiotic as they get underscoring people's ability to delude themselves with wacky rules that run strongly in the face of reason. We're allowed to laugh at those people. That's why I'm still laughing at Bush. He may have done a lot of things right, but he wielded his religion stupidly. Therefor, for that reason, I scoff.

Childish? No, reasonable.

 

METASAPIEN

2:26 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Russell?

I would have concluded from your - baseless and puerile - criticism of Harris that your are a god-botherer, RITAVILLE, but then you cite Bertrand Russell, surely one of the most avowedly ATHEIST philosophers of the 20th century. Perhaps you are not aware of this. Let me quote to you some of his remarks on the matter of religion:

"I mean by intellectual integrity the habit of deciding vexed questions in accordance with the evidence, or of leaving them undecided where the evidence is inconclusive. This virtue, though it is underestimated by almost all adherents of any system of dogma, is to my mind of the very greatest social importance and far more likely to benefit the world than Christianity or any other system of organized beliefs."

"Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones."

"Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false."

"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."

"My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."

"Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by the help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it."

"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd; indeed, in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible."

"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing."

I could go on, but I hope you get the point. And I think you will find that there is far more resonance between Russell's views of religion and those of Sam Harris, than with those of Karen Armstrong.

 

QUEEF

2:43 PM ET

January 5, 2010

You should read some of

You should read some of Russell's political articles and op-eds from back in the day. Russell was no saint. He said some pretty foolish things here and there.

 

SCARR66

3:57 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Harris is childish? how else do you argue against nonsense?

Once again an atheist is told to rethink how they present their argument - this time, apparently by one of our own (?). It's never good enough is it? Whether it is reason, sarcasm, intemperate, hostile, patronizing etc. etc....the style of argument always becomes the main point for believers...and apparently some non-believers. As another replier noted: even Socrates himself was put to death for being 'Socratic' on his view about god.

 

RODE

4:21 PM ET

January 5, 2010

What?

"The childish sarcasm above illustrates his frustration with the continuing non-effect his arguments have on scientific community as a whole.."
RITAVILLE, is there at least one point you might argue with instead of showing only your frustration with Sam's style? I find his arguments simple and to the point, in the style of, "Well, if you say I don't understand the depths of theology, then show me the deep parts of the Bible that will make me realize I'm wrong and that someone really did walk on water." How is that "insufferable"? And what does it have to do with affecting the scientific community? (Most of whom already agree with him.) His sarcasm is superb and rightly directed at people who don't see where superstition is the engine for idiocy; "I apologize for my lack of empathy. I forgot just how painful it must be for a some of the devout when they see a young girl going to school." Priceless.

I've seen his debates as well, and to characterize them as him coming out on the short end is unbelievable.

 

RITAVILLE

5:55 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Jeez . . .

I am as much an atheist as humanly possible. I have ZERO faith in any religion. Do all atheist have to think alike or agree on everything? If anyone has read Scott Atran or Bertrand Russell's books (I've read them all), you might have a better idea of where I stand on religion. Harris is not in Russell, Dawkins, or Atran's intellectual or Socratic league by any stretch. Here is what I basically think: I honestly don't understand why people get so emotionally worked-up over the left/right, atheist/theist debate. There is certainly a left/right component to human nature: the level of anxiety/denial or insecurity someone feels in the face of Nature is directly proportional to the position that person occupies on the left/right/theist scale. More anxiety = more need for the illusion that Nature (especially sex and death) can be controlled. Ted Haggard exemplifies this beautifully. No aspect of Nature (including human-nature) can be controlled -- and certainly not by human beings. To put this into context, I refer to Nature as phenomena which functions intact irregardless of human interaction. (Parenthetically, in theory, God or some other supernatural entity could control Nature). Yet, belief in false or non-existent hierarchies such as god, government, race, or affluence reduces anxiety. All of us deny nature to some degree, there is no getting around that. We live our entire lives as if we will not die tomorrow, but we can, some of us will, and eventually all of us do. In the mean time I choose not to bash religion as it is the wellspring by which so many people find meaning and reduce anxiety. I just wish everyone would keep their faith to themselves. The horrible things that have and do happen as a result of religion is bad religion, not religion in total. Is there any phenomena/thought that can be said to be 100% good or 100% evil? I LOVE and have read all of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens' books, as cranky as they can be. But personally, I find "the new atheism" rigid, close minded and a mirror of all that it works to confront. And yet, I agree with almost all of what they say -- except for Harris who I find to be infantile.

 

FLATIRON

8:47 PM ET

January 5, 2010

 

PIERO

9:07 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Jeez...

Ritaville, your rant about Nature (capitalized) is nonsensical and irrelevant.
You contradict yourself by claiming to LOVE (in all-capitals) Dawkins's and Hitchens's books, and simultaneously finding the "new atheism" rigid and close minded, though you agree with almost all of what they say.
If you feel you have the right to call Sam Harris "infantile" I can only attribute that to a diminished cognitive capacity.

 

RITAVILLE

11:30 PM ET

January 5, 2010

No it isn't . . .

There isn't a rant here, nor is anything I wrote nonsensical, and surely not irrelevant. If your having trouble understanding what I wrote, try reading it again. It's very straight forward. If you still cant' understand it: I can only conclude that the syphilis your brother gave you has finally spread to your brain.

Why can't I love books by Dawkins and Hitchins, agree with most of what they say and still see the new atheism as being chuck full of philodox, Sophistry, and ad ad homonym aggression?

 

BRUCE GORTON

8:03 AM ET

January 6, 2010

What your entire argument summarises to

An ad-hominem attack. You don't point out anything about what he is actually saying, you are just trying to discredit it by the way he says it. This demonstrates that you have no cogent points to disagree with him on.

Further, while I personally have not seen Harris in any debates (I am not a fan of his), I have to wonder where you got the idea that how good someone is in a debate has any bearing on how their scientific career is likely to go.

Debate is after all, about persuasion rather than truth.

As to Betrand Russel, Russel was actually somewhat more brutal that Harris is, yet now that he is safely "past" he is trotted out as being a nice, gentle soul because the chance of him biting your head off for the insult he would see in that is safely past too.

 

RITAVILLE

2:35 PM ET

January 6, 2010

I agree with you . . .

You are absolutely right. Other than the my long post in the middle, everything I have written is satire and irony aimed at the nature of these debates. I like your snazzy use of the word cogent. I don't see the point of bickering over the minutia of Harris' arguments. I find his arguments to be couched in childish/reactionary tactics which implode his reasoning. Plus, he's added nothing NEW to this debate. Incidentally, Neither has Dawkins or Hitchens. They've just added more debate -- which is always fun, but seldom enlightening, at least for me. Armstrong is at least trying to discuss theology positively, even if her reasoning is self-edited. If nothing else she is advocating flexibility and fluidity. The four horsemen advocate accepting what IS and what ISN'T. And although I think they are 100% correct, religion isn't going away. No amount of satirical quotes from the bible and scientific reasoning is going to change this. This seems to me more to the point of what IS.

 

SCARR66

4:23 PM ET

January 7, 2010

"ritaville"

Such hypocrisy and contradictions throughout all your commentary. People of reason should stick together regardless of any small difference in style. Be part of the solution or part of the problem right? - it's unclear where you stand, despite all your self-congratulatory verbal bs. Sorry but YOU are the insufferable one.

 

RITAVILLE

9:14 PM ET

January 7, 2010

Well, I agree with you too . ..

Most of this kind of dialogue is self-congratulatory, and insufferable -- I put my name first on the list! I'm fairly intelligent, but I am also a buffoon who can laugh at himself. As for a position, I am flexible to all sides of this debate and I support everyone's point of view; and yet, I am an atheist. I just don't think this problem can be settled, and I don't think that all of this needs to be so emotional. I have never had any type of faith, and if I had to bet, I'd bet that there is no god; but this is somewhat irrelevant, because even if god or gods showed up tomorrow, my life wouldn't change much. I still wouldn't see any reason for worship or seek moral counsel. I agree with you that intellectuals should stick together and seek truth/ideas, but that does not necessitate siding with all atheists. You have to admit, the vast majority of these posts in here are close minded and ridged. Everyone is so damned sure about one side or the other, and they are quite angry. Whatever works for the individual is fine with me -- as long as it isn't violent. That said, I am not a public figure, Harris is. Thus I feel he should act professional in his replies.

 

BRONXBOY47

4:56 PM ET

January 10, 2010

"I don't see the point of

"I don't see the point of bickering over the minutia of Harris' arguments."

What a cop out. How conveniently you dismiss the substance of Harris' arguments as minutia, while simultaneously continuing your ad hominem sniper attacks on both his character and the character of his arguments.

 

RITAVILLE

6:29 PM ET

January 17, 2010

Ok . . .

Let me clarify: I don't see the point in arguing the minutia of this particular article by Harris, because I see no "substance" within. If Harris is going to act like a baby in public because someone disagrees with him, then I prefer to look at the psychological aspects that drove him to write such an insufferable article rather than analyze the sarcastic cliches that this article is overflowing with. When, and if, Harris ever says something original, I'll give it the attention it deserves. As of yet, he hasn't added anything to this theist/non-theist argument. Bashing a broad and deep concept like religion is too easy; just as bashing the concept of atheism is too easy. Instead of bashing or throwing tantrums, we could respectfully look at all arguments and apply to our life that which is relevant to our life. Taking a staunch stand on what "is" and what "isn't" is typical 50/50 Americana, and I can't/don't/won't think in those terms. I don't have sympathy for those who think in terms of "my people"/"your people." 50/50 thinking does nothing other than feed everyone's hysteric emotions.

 

PHONEYBALONEY

1:16 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Armstrong confuses religion with spirituality.

Armstrong declares:

"Religion is also about the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning; ..."

Simply put, no it isn't. That investigation -- i.e., into what makes life worth living -- is called "spirituality," and is pursued by both atheists and religionists (even the homicidal jihadiin) worldwide, regardless of their religion.

Religion -- all religion, including Ms. Armstrong's -- is the assertion of the truth of an Ultimate Story, and the drawing of conclusions from that truth. The Christians admit this all the time when they, obnoxiously and at length, capitalize the letter "t" when they refer to their iron age fairy tale as "the Truth."

Many individuals need spirituality; but no one needs religion, except to agglomerate personal power.

 

RITAVILLE

1:21 PM ET

January 5, 2010

I apologize . . .

I apologize for misspelling RUSSELL.

 

PEACEFULL1

1:27 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Religion an ideological cancer

Armstrong is clearly out of her league. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths some will go to try to argue that living your life based on superstition is a good idea. Hopefully more of us will wake up to the fact that religion is a ideological cancer. Try talking an atheist, agnostic, "non-believer" into flying a plane into a skyscraper or blowing up a building in Oklahoma City and see how far you get.

 

IAMB

1:28 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Incapable of Morality

To be filed under "Pots calling Kettles Black", is the strange idea that "those who know not the Lord" are incapable of empathy, tolerance, compassion or morality.

If it were true that evolutionists (those who believe that the Earth's biological complexity is a product of evolutionary process rather then by a highly subjective supernatural entity) are incapable of these "divine" qualities, then it stands to reason that we would have long ago embarked on a campaign to severely reduce or eliminate creationist representation in the gene pool. But we haven't. (Sigh!) No, we haven't.

While I often feel that waging a public war against the widespread tendency to "believe what one wants to believe" is a losing one, I also stand solidly behind the Four Horsemen (Harris, Hitchens, Dennett & Dawkins) for attempting to do so. The sooner that we can isolate public and foreign policy from religious thought, the saner this over-crowded, dying world will be for us all.

 

GPAGAN

1:37 PM ET

January 5, 2010

6 Horsemen

Don't forget Dan Barker and Michel Onfray.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

2:10 PM ET

January 5, 2010

And cow girl

Inuendo intended. Greta Christina is great! It's even there, right in her name. it must be true! Wait, Christ is there, too. Oh, noe, what should I believe? Ina?!? Inca? Ani-stazi? Ain't it the truth, Ruth?

Other public women atheists here.

 

SALAMANTIS

2:13 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Some other less famous horsemen:

Steven Pinker - The Blank Slate
Victor J. Stenger - The New Atheism and God: The Failed Hypothesis (among others)
Pascal Boyer - Religion Explained
John Allen Paulos - Irreligion
Darrel W. Ray - The God Virus
Scott Atran - In Gods We Trust
David Sloan Wilson - Darwin's Cathedral

 

YOLANDE

3:52 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Not all atheists are horsemen

For a comprehensive list of female atheists and their work

http://www.blaghag.com/2010/01/large-list-of-awesome-female-atheists.html

 

GPAGAN

4:08 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Atheist -ette

Like Harris, I don't care for the term atheist. It is too negative. ex.: people who don't believe in astronomy don't call themselves non-astronomers.

Likewise, it is wrong to assume the masculine all the time and say "horseMEN". The single largest issue I have with religion is how women are (mis)treated. Please continue to send list of authoresses and other women free thinking leaders. Our community is small and we need all the input we can get.

 

BUCKSTEPHENH

1:51 PM ET

January 5, 2010

God = We

A simple mental exercise that you undertake when anyone uses the word "God":

replace the word with "We".

When you do the easy mental flip, everything that is said will come into perfect focus. We have been taught not to speak for ourselves or others, and instead use the moniker God to represent tribalism and ethnocentrism. It's also beneficial to research how many people the speaker is actually representing to gauge its relevance. It's amazing how the personal views of someone comes shouting loud and clear when you do this simple trick, yet they unknowingly anthropomorphize the remaining gap of scientific knowledge with attributes for which they have no evidence. It is faith (belief without evidence) afterall.

 

GPAGAN

2:07 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Who's God

To understand the motive and agenda, understand that the mere mention of "God" begs the question, "Who's God?"

Christians are all too quick to assume that the atheist will rise to the occassion to debate against the Christian God. All religions ar eequally silly. The absolutist morality concept is not unique to the Christian. Examples of objective morality from an atheist view must be presented constantly for this is the religious' greatest dilema: How can an athiest be moral? Even if he is proven to be moral, where does he derive is basis of morality, and finally is there a reason to be moral in the first place?

 

GILBERT

5:03 PM ET

January 5, 2010

God = we

We get the politicians we deserve and gods we create.

 

SCHLOFSTER

2:01 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Is delusion is acceptable as long as it is useful?

"Religion is also about the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning; it was not designed to provide us with the same kind of explanations as science, but to help us to live creatively, serenely, and kindly with the suffering that is an inescapable part of the human condition."

Karen, do you mean to say here that delusion is acceptable as long as it is useful?

If this is what you mean, then I humbly disagree with you.
Understanding of this universe, and the desire acquire it & teach it, is what distinguishes us from other higher primates.

 

MACTHORNBERG

2:02 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Apologist!

Armstrong's note avoids the regrettable but inevitable force majeure that IS political islam, by lumping it with all religion. Is there any other type? Don't tell me about the few scores of different flavours and interpretations of it, when I believe that its originator was in the least unbalanced, and more probably a power hungry maniac in love with fear and death as a tool for social engineering.

When will the nettle be grasped, and why are mainstream media avoiding the awful conclusions any thinking person has to come to, when they consider the mechanism of political islam?

I tire of the generalisation of all religion. In terms of growth, there is only one which grows at a rate which emulates the speed of growth of some aggressive form of cancer. The checks and balances are in place to ensure that mutations from the true faith are destroyed as soon as they are spawned, and that its growth rate is epic because of the way families are grown like a hatchery. It is taking over. It never seeks to coexist. It always seeks to absorb, convert or destroy the original culture and populace.

As the population of the world grows, apparently unchecked, and political islam proceeds in its characteristic and inexorable growth, there is less and less room to breathe. I would liken it to putting too many fully armed and very passionate people in a locked closet and waiting to see what happens. We already know the answer. If religion is to be allowed, it must become very private; an individual pursuit; free of proselytisation of others, else we must grow out of it as a species, more quickly that it seems we are able.

 

CAMOGUARD

2:04 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Debate Done Wrong

I think this exchange highlights Karen's inability to actually advance a point. Sam's argument is that religiosity includes beliefs that cost lives. Therefore religion is deadly. Karen's argument is that Sam's argument could be more nicely done and overlooks religion. But Karen's job is to relate the transcendent elements of religion as being more important than the deadly consequences of religion gone wild. After all, if the transcendent elements save X lives and the rogue religions kill Y lives, is X > Y or not?

Karen Armstrong's rebuttal = fail. Advance a point.

 

MONTSTER70

2:09 PM ET

January 5, 2010

While I generally side with

While I generally side with Sam Harris ( I support his organization), Richard Dawkins et al., I feel the attacks on Ms. Armstrong's article are a bit unjustified. I don't read this as much an attack on modern secularism as I do reporting on the state of the way things currently are. It's like the old argument whether rap/hip hop is merely reflecting the thoughts of the youth who listen to it or is inspiring them act out the lyrics. I wish we could move beyond needing belief in some magical realm as much as anyone here, but the reality is many people need a belief in something outside our rational world to guide them. Not everyone is strong enough to endure the hardships of the modern world without a belief that things will be perfect in the afterlife. It would seem to them just too damn unfair to slog it out in this life with hunger, disease and violence on a daily basis not to be rewarded with paradise for eternity. Actually, one could argue these theological "promises" are what have sustained religion to this point and will continue to sustain it. Pretty clever doctrine me thinks. I too agree religion has been used for evil, and I agree that unspeakable acts have been committed by secular leaders. The ranks may swell in the camp of secularist at times and apologists at other times, but neither is ever going to eliminate the other. The concept of "God" has served humankind well in the past and many will continue to hold onto it. Sam's responses should be more respectful to prevent further inflammation of people's personal feelings and beliefs. Sarcasm with regard to this subject matter will always be perceived as hostile and will only set back the efforts Sam is working so hard towards.

 

NIBOR321

2:11 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Socratic irony?

Am I the only one to find it ironic that Karen Armstrong should summon Socrates, condemned to death for blasphemy, to her defense in attacking Sam Harris for daring to use irony in his response to having 'listened to both sides of the question and considered the evidence'? Karen Armstrong gives whole new meaning to the word 'obfuscation'.

It seems to be a standard moves for such apologists of evil to appeal for 'civil discourse' when the idiocy of their arguments is pointed out to them.

 

EVN

1:53 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Civil discourse?

With a person who mutilates the genitals of little girls? I think not.

 

NORWEGIAN SHOOTER

2:17 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Really good comments

Although I wouldn't take the majority backing of Harris as significant. There aren't any Christians standing up for Armstrong because most would consider her an atheist in all but name. If Harris responded to an orthodox Christian (of any stripe) believer, there would surely be trolls all over the place.

 

RALPH137

2:26 PM ET

January 5, 2010

afterlife

"Religion is also about the quest for transcendence," I am assuming this is where the hope of an afterlife enters, with some memories of this life.
Consider what is known about that very physical thing, our brain. Just consider memories. Memories arise to a subjective awareness with the physical firing of patterns of neurons. A pattern of differences that can allow us a precept of difference between cat and dog. When a memories pattern of different neurons reaching the proper voltage to respond are gone, either by damage to the brain or death, that memory is gone. No violation to the laws of thermodynamics.
If religions wants transcendence it needs to fund research in alternate ways of encoding knowledge in the spirit world where there is no known difference between anything.
Spirits, souls, demons were so easy to imagine before humanity found out there was a very complicated physical structure called the brain.
Enjoy your mind's use of it's brain in this world. Once out of the shrink wrap it is a single use only.

 

LOGICALBOB

2:29 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Karen simply lacks understanding of God belief

Her comment about religion:
.."and the endless search for meaning; it was not designed to provide us with the same kind of explanations as science, but to help us to live creatively, serenely, and kindly with the suffering that is an inescapable part of the human condition".

WRONG. Wow..I can't believe you have studied any history of the various religions. Gods and Supreme Deities were INVENTED by Bronze age tribes to EXPLAIN (give answers) to unknown questions. Mostly questions about origins and who is GODs favorite. Most of these weirdo's in robes also had the inside track on what is a sin and why women should be valued as much as a cow. There was no serenity or kindly attitudes involved. Creativity was stifled, not encouraged.

The only reason religion continues to appeal to millions around the world is because we tolerate these nutballs and their looney ideas. We need to CALL BS on all god belief and put such beliefs in the same catagory as belief in Witchcraft, evil spirits and invisible magic zombies who watch over you. Make religion a laughing matter. Teach children that GOD IS JUST PRETEND. Hey..thanks Sam.!

 

FINCHER

2:31 PM ET

January 5, 2010

"God" or Santa Claus?

"God" is useful to scare people into acceptable behavior.
But so does Santa Claus.
"God" rewards good behavior.
But so does Santa Claus.
I'll take Santa Claus. He's not so hung up on this "Heaven & Hell Thing".

 

RAYPEREDA

2:58 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Religion will go the way of witchcraft, but hurry please

Sam's comparison of religious non-sense to witchcraft is just great. Few people grasp the moment of the zeitgeist moving over the last 3,000 years as we become more rational. Sam has a wonderful sense of this progress but he's not just an observer. God is not great, this holds us back from making so much better use of our thinking.

The rate of history is accelerating. The amount of social change in my life time is greater than that of the previous 200 years. I hope that America becomes as secular as Europe before I die. I'm counting of writers like Sam to keep the ball rolling.

Growing up with religious non-sense in your head weakens your ability to see non-sense when it is all around. Karen's thinking that religion makes you not just moral but exceptionally gentle is non-sense. Atheist are some of the most moral, pleasant people I've met at the Atheist Alliance International conventions.

 

DENNISCAV

3:01 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Armstrong vs. Harris

I am an atheist, But here, I do agree more with Karen Armstrong than with Sam Harris. Harris obviously does not understand the beneficial role that religious beliefs have played for many generations, including his own. I agree also with the need for Harris to use more of the, 'Socratic' approach, to debate than he has shown in the past and continues to demonstrate.

 

FLATIRON

9:12 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Life is an experiment without a control sample

The claim that religion breeds good outcomes is unsupportable on it's face. There is no comparison sample by which to make this judgement. Just how is it that you understand what would have happened in the situations you are imagining if non-religious persons had been involved.

For all you know, many great things religious persons have done had some other cause than their religion. So get serious, your conclusions are fabrications based on biased opinion and sloppy thinking.

Let's just leave the what-if calculations to the spreadsheets shall we?

 

GINGERBAKER

2:19 PM ET

January 6, 2010

wrong

Harris most certainly does understand the beneficial effects of religion - have you read his work? . The problem is that religion does not uniquely offer these services.

Hamas builds schools, you know, and it also promotes suicide bombers. Secular entities can also build schools. Secular agencies can also offer a sense of community, spirituality, and moral living.

 

ALCANNISTRARO

3:26 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Can these two have an intelligent debate?

The discussion I'd like to see would have Armstrong and Harris acknowledge their points and areas of agreement, and also have them respectfully and constructively explicating their disagreements. But to do that they'd both have to be discussing the same concepts -- understood in the same ways. Maybe they would need a strong moderator, or maybe Sam just needs to keep his emotions under proper control.

On second thought, these two might not have sufficient mutual respect for an intelligent discussion to be possible for them. Pity. I enjoy reading them both, but not together.

 

SQUEEDLE

3:41 PM ET

January 5, 2010

What about men?

One can make at least as strong a case that MEN are responsible for the worst tragedies and crimes against humanity. Men are the ones who take us into war, men are mass murderers, men make all the weapons and men failed to reach an agreement at Copenhagen. Men are the ones who are raping women by the tens of thousands in the Congo. Men are the ones who demand prostitutes and oppress women in countless other ways. Men are the ones who are the biggest religious leaders and men are the ones who are being the most smug, snide and aggressive about their atheism, their politics, their religion, or whatever their current belief is.

"Men are the problem" is the rhetoric of the lesbian separatist movement. All of the above may be right, but is this a productive way to frame these problems? Do you really think it's reasonable to find a way to eliminate men from society somehow? Is it going to reduce the ills of the world to belittle men and make them feel like they are evil and bad for humanity? How successful has the lesbian separatist movement been?

 

WHARRYMAN

3:59 PM ET

January 5, 2010

It's about worldviews

Armstrong is a believer in religion, and Harris hates all religion - there can be no coherent debate between them because they come from different worldviews, and each thinks their own view is the ONLY correct view.

But this issue is not limited to these smart folks alone.

The views that Harris fights so hard against in his writings are those held by preconventional and conventional developmental stage religious people. They tend to be much more engaged in magical thinking and black-and-white thinking, whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Buddhist.

Postconventional believers are not dogmatic or authoritarian, and tend to be much more rational in their beliefs (which are still beliefs, but they tend to know that they have chosen to believe and have not done so reflexively). This is where Armstrong comes from in her writings, and this is how she tends to see other religions, while pointing out their preconventional and conventional beliefs as part of their development, but now representing the dysfunctional elements of those traditions in most cases.

[See Lawrence Kohlberg and Carol Gilligan to better understand how moral development and cognitive development, which create specific worldviews, are linked.]

When all the parties to this "debate" can get clear on the developmental (moral, cognitive, spiritual, values, etc) worldviews they are talking about, then we might have a coherent discussion.

 

GREGHART

4:12 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Remarkable blindness

Ms. Armstrong while very ironically calling for a Socratic exchange, steps far away from any evidence and declares that she has no time for witchcraft and the like but thinks religion is an entirely different thing.

Um, the point of Harris' satire was that they are the same thing. These few paragraphs of 'reasoning' seriously call into question Ms. Armstrong's credibility on this or any other subject. And she wasn't in particularly good shape after her original column.

 

MONTSTER70

10:11 AM ET

January 6, 2010

I wouldn't characterize Sam's

I wouldn't characterize Sam's response as 'satire' as much as sarcasm. Ms. Armstrong's response was more eloquent and would have a greater ability to sway folks sitting on the fence away from what Sam is trying to make them realize. That's the problem we face. If we just make our point with arrogant attacks we risk appearing pontificate and will only increase resistence to what we are saying.

 

JDHUEY

2:57 PM ET

January 6, 2010

An interesting conjecture but ..

This is an interesting conjecture but do we really have any data that supports the idea that sharp stinging sarcasm is less effective than mealy mouth twaddle at convincing people that are on the borderline? My guess is, I suspect, as good as yours and I would conjecture that the sarcastic approach is more effective: I think it attracts a greater number of readers and generates a greater amount of thought and feedback. I also guess that the number of people that are put off by the sarcasm to the extent that it would influence their opinion on the topic is vanishingly small.

 

RBALDWIN

4:24 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Respect for Harris and Armstrong

I have immense respect for both Harris and Armstrong, but I will have to admit that when I read Armstrong's book on Islam, I was stuck by what I percieved as her naivete, and here she repeats it with defining jihad as "the 'effort' required to implement the will of God in a violent world" without realizing what that obviously entails for many Muslims given the violent history of Islam. I know all about al-Andalus, but toleration seems to be an exception not the rule in Islamic controlled countries. Besides al-Andalus was not a tolerant society in the sense of our beloved American secular democracy (which many unpatriotic Christians in our society would like to dismantle into a theocracy). Too many Muslims believe in a theocratic society, and many that Sharia should be the law of the land. And I don't want someone replying to this by saying the majority of Muslims are not terrorists; most of the Germans were not Nazis. So what's the point? That culture is producing the most dangerous people on the planet right now that feel it's even okay to kill there own. We must be vigilant.

I do realize that Harris uses sarcasm, but is that a disallowed rhetorical device? It often succinctly makes the point. Religion is evil, not just because of its historical violence, but because of its epistemology: faith (believing the ridiculous without evidence) rather than evidential reasoning.

 

WOMAN WITHOUT SUPERSTITION

5:02 PM ET

January 5, 2010

New definitions for gods and religion by Karen Armstrong

Karen Armstrong says:

Religion is also about the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning; it was not designed to provide us with the same kind of explanations as science, but to help us to live creatively, serenely, and kindly with the suffering that is an inescapable part of the human condition. As such, it continues to appeal to millions of human beings across the globe.

This is what drives me nuts. Where did you come up with that Ms. Armstrong? I’ve read the bible, & I don’t get that message. That’s the message that society says is in the bible. That isn’t reality. When can we just look at these “sacred” texts honestly? They’re all pretty horrific. Murder, rape, human & animal sacrifices, misogyny & slavery is what I saw in the bible. There’s some nice stuff sprinkled in there too, but it doesn’t make up for the cruelty and craziness.

What kind of god allows that stuff to be published? I personally have no qualifications for becoming a goddess. But I know for certain, that nobody would get away with publishing the Sodom and Gomorrah story in my name. Lot offered up his two daughters to be gang raped by an angry mob and he was the good guy in the story? His wife turns her head & she’s turned to salt? WTF! If somebody tried to pass off that crap as something I approved of or participated in, I would be doing some SERIOUS smiting - smiting like nobody has ever seen. No book with that story and so many others would see the light of day. As a goddess, I would have no desire to confuse the people who for some reason feel like they need to worship something.

I see sacred texts as IQ tests. Read the books, listen to what you’ve been told all your life by religious people, and make a choice. You can make excuses like this holy book is contextual which means your god can’t see into the future, or he’s immoral. There is no context past present or future that makes slavery acceptable. Or, maybe the book is made up by some sadistic men, & all the crazy miracles didn’t happen.

I’m sure Ms. Armstrong believes I am being disrespectful, but I feel like I am being honest. Many decent people believe I will burn in hell. I have known many parents who ache because they think they will not see their beloved atheist child in the afterlife. Surely a god can find a way for people to not be bothered by a loved one being tortured for eternity. There are some ugly, painful truths about the divide between theism and atheism. I don’t see why we can’t discuss them honestly.

I bet Ms. Armstrong isn’t a big fan of hell either. When I have heard Ms. Armstrong speak about god, it doesn’t sound like any god I’ve heard of. Her god is swell. Her god likes women. The problem is she and many others are leaving the bible behind and making up a new one that we can stomach as people who have long since improved in the morality department.

Ms. Armstrong, you’ve made up a nice god. I don’t see any evidence to support your claim. You’ve changed all the definitions of just about every aspect of religion that I’m familiar with. I just want some truth and some clear definitions. We can't have a conversation without agreeing on the definitions.

 

SHAYNE

5:04 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Karen's remarks

Religionists begin with a faulty argument and things get worse from there. Karen says religion is difficult to do well. I say it's impossible because it is founded on arbitrary, jumbled, prejudicial, archaic, narrow-minded, bastardized tenets. Karen says she abhors violence of any kind, yet she tolerates violent agendas and commandments within the doctrines of religion. She says religion is about the discipline for compassion. If compassion takes discipline, it is not compassion. She writes " it was not designed to provide us with the same kind of explanations as science, but to help us to live creatively, serenely, and kindly with the suffering that is an inescapable part of the human condition..." This is what makes religious ideas so absurd -- they are allowed to exist in narrow minds somehow outside of the realm of scientific scrutiny. And creative? Once you step outside the box of religious thinking you become a pariah.

The bottom line is that people will always embrace some ridiculous, baseless set of ideas and try to convince others that their delusions are real. But the problem is that the deluded expect to be accorded respect for their lunacy.

 

STEVEN THOMAS SMITH

5:08 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Armstrong is "Not Even Wrong"

The "new" atheism sure does sound exactly like the "old" atheism, whether expressed in the Christendom or the Islamic world. Where, exactly, is the line between the "new" atheism and the old? Any attempt to draw one shows what nonsense is the term "New Atheism", and also illustrates the long standing non-response of the religious to their critics.

"By what gods will you swear? For, in the first place, gods are not a current coin with us. … What Jupiter? Do not trifle. There is no Jupiter. … [responding to the question of who makes the rain fall if not Jupiter] Have you not heard me, that I said that the Clouds, when full of moisture, dash against each other and clap by reason of their density?
" —Socrates, in Aristophanes's The Clouds" (5th c. BCE) (for which Plato credits the trial and execution of Socrates for atheism)

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is God both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" —Epicurus (3d c. BCE)

"The inhabitants of the earth are of two sorts: Those with brains, but no religion, And those with religion, but no brains." —Al-Ma'arri (10th c. CE)

"The Koran! well, come put me to the test—
Lovely old book in hideous error drest—
Believe me, I can quote the Koran too,
The unbeliever knows his Koran best.

And do you think that unto such as you,
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
God gave the secret, and denied it me?—
Well, well, what matters it! believe that too."
—Omar Khayyám (11th c.)

"Don't you see that the appalling history of sectarianism, persecution, heresy hunting, shows you that this way of thinking about the world is intrinsically unsound?" —Thomas Hobbes (17th c.)

"God's power is infinite, Whatever he wills is executed; But neither man nor any other animal is happy; therefore he does not will their happiness. Epicurus' old questions are yet unanswered. Is he both able and willing to prevent evil? Then whence cometh evil?" —David Hume (18th c.)

"There is no need for that hypothesis." —Laplace (18th c.)

"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government;" —Atatürk (20th c.)

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." —Steven Weinberg (21st c.)

Rather than confront millenia of acidic criticism head on, Armstrong dismisses it all as impolite and, without a trace of irony, non-Socratic. Her writing, which always addresses what makes people feel good and never addresses what is actually true, is the real parody, not Harris's.

 

CRAZYSAILR

8:42 PM ET

January 8, 2010

Well quoted, Well spoken

Well spoken and well quoted, Mr. Smith.
You wondered, though where the line is between the "New Atheism and the old? For me, it is in the minds of narrow minded dymo label makers, who need to first label everyone as either "Friend or Foe". "Good or evil". "Black or White". The world is a much more complex place than those who are hung up on labels generally like to admit, and I think it best to try to strive to leave room for people to stand or fall on their own merit. This “need to label” seems pretty equally distributed on either side of the god or no god debate. How many of us have also fallen into the habit of name calling histrionics while jousting with believers? And even when we don’t actually call them names or rant about what fools they are for holding on to their unsupportable faith based belief systems, we are probably thinking it aren’t we? I suppose this is one of the big reasons some hate atheists with such passion. People don’t enjoy being made out to be a fool. But what choice do we have other than to try and show them how insane their world view is? Based on sheer numbers, believers hold sway over the world, and it is we who find ourselves living in their world… a world gone utterly mad in my eyes. It’s a good thing I’m already crazy… about sailing, anyway ;-)

 

ERICNYC

5:30 PM ET

January 5, 2010

atheist history

in his excellent "Treatise on the Gods" , HL Mencken also attacked religion like Harris, Hitchens, and Dawkins are doing now.
In the preface he said that all books on religion are written by 2 kinds of men. Those that love religion too much and those that hate it too much....
He also says that Religion began when the first witchdoctor convinced the first cavemen that he could control the weather...or give luck with the hunt... by appealing to supernatural powers... All the rest is just bells and whistles.
I am glad to see that 8 out of 10 remarks have come down against idiot apologists like Ms. Armstrong who is probably under the pay of some university who likes her message...of appeasement.
In the last 50 years we have made great strides against institutionalized racism and sexism. Now we need to patiently begin to dismantle religion and religious beliefs (which is the single biggest supporter of racism and sexism)...once and for all!
We need to roll up our sleeves and get going!
We've got a lot of work to do!
We've got the truth ( a very powerful ally) on our side.

 

TIN-TIN

3:16 PM ET

January 7, 2010

ERICNYC

That's good about the witch doctor controlling weather. An oyster around a grain of sand, a church around a flim-flam man. I've come to wonder whether all religious have at their core three memes, core ideas: 1) there is an invisible entity that (2) can and will hurt you if you don't obey its rules, and (3) the first rule is believe in *it.

Faith is needed to keep these three circulating, and the rest of the religion -- all of it -- becomes rational.

 

TGBARTON

5:48 PM ET

January 5, 2010

They're both right (subjective vs. objective)

Armstrong is correct in arguing that the subjective side of religion is irreproachable. No religious zealot has cited their preference for a type of hymn as a motive for martyrdom, for example.

However, Harris is correct in arguing that showing appreciation for the subjective value of religion is far too commonly conflated with condoning a theology's objective claims (e.g. an afterlife; deities appearing in human form; etc.).

What's the best way of telling people that it's OK to enjoy going to church as long as they don't buy any of the dogma?

 

FLATIRON

10:19 PM ET

January 5, 2010

why church?

What could replace religion to provide the human condition with what it seems to need, to crave, to subject itself to?

Of course that question starts out presuming something worthwhile is being addressed with religion.

It seems equally possible that we just can't face the reality of our existence and have erected this massive blind that twarts the gaze of most upon the plain and simple answers to the pesky questions.

If the latter is true, and we just can't face the "hole in our souls", the only survival move is evolving denial. In our reality, that would be religion.

 

KWILS

5:55 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Religion....Compassionate?

People have been slaughtering each other all over this planet to defend their religious beliefs and still do today. Christians are right in the thick of it. Compassion? Why is that the streets are not filled with christians demanding an end to war? Isn't that where your Jesus would be? Christians are the first ones in line when it comes to violent behaviour. Compassion? I was born and raised Catholic and held christian beliefs until I realized that I never ,ever, ever met a christian that even came close to living up to the teachings of their saviour. This country is supposedly 75 to 85 % christian and it's the most violent dishonest place on the planet. Apparently it's the 15 to 25% non-christians that are committing all of the rape, murder, theft, corporate crime, racial intolerance, gay bashing, bigotry....etc.
Science is the endless search for meaning. Religion thinks it can dictate the meaning of life and convince you to end the search because it has all of the answers. There is absolutely no need to believe in an invisible entity to achieve high moral character. In fact the history of religion shows quite the opposite.

 

RUSHING

6:01 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Evolution of Religion

Religion is the earliest written account of the discovery of the way to know the Creator and Ruler of all that exists - God. The wandering tribes of Judea asked and received the name of the true God - Yahweh. Their daily survival required they by guided to make right decisions on pain of death or enslavement. They came to know the ways of God and made right decisions and prospered. The Hebrew became know as the people of the book. Their book announced the birth of Reason. They named their God Yahweh, or, I am that I am, which translates into A is A and A = A is the formula for correct reasoning. This revelation was the source of logic and logic is the source of science. So, religion has evolved into Science and the evolved name of God is Reason. To Reason correctly, is to know God. Reason gave birth to Rational Love and Rational Freedom. The father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, three forces necessary for the growth of morality in man were born and nursed by religion - messy like the birth of a man but necessary "in the beginning."

 

SHAYNE

8:43 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Too much respect for religion

No, religion is not the first way to know the creator, as if there was one anyway. Reading the works of Joseph Campbell, you'll see that the attempts to understand the nature of things began with mythology, not religion. The religion you are describing is tribal politics with a focus on keeping people in line. When you take your argument from the very source that is being debated, you get circular logic, not fact.

 

MARK SEIGLER

6:38 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Just a comment

Science and religion are and always have been separate pursuits. Science, by it's own parameters will never be able to flush out a "supreme being". The pursuit of "scientific" non-empirical experiments into the character of nature and existence is called Metaphysics. A different science discipline altogether. Any of that going on here? Doesn't look like it. Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris fall a bit short of being taken seriously by any philosopher or theologian since they are neither. Even lesser theological thinkers like David Bently Hart or Dinesh D'Souza can dismantle these guys quite handily. Who knows what Armstrong is. To scientifically or biologically try to disprove the existence of God has never met with success. If it were so, the debate would be long over.

To say " Faith is still just willful ignorance, and once you've accepted as truth something which cannot be proved you've already suspended critical thinking." is to suspend critical thinking itself. Too many values exist within humanity that have no empirical "proof" for that to hold water.

Also "That religion is best followed by taking in only the moral code, not the teachings." defeats the purpose of the teachings. That's like saying "I believe two equals two, but I don't believe in Mathematics. How can you accept moral code from a teacher you don't respect?

Since recorded history, a much better case can be made to accuse man's cruelty to man by personal greed, lust for power or land and the SUPPRESSION of religion, rather than the pursuit of religion. Stalin, Hitler, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot to name a few have certainly exploited and taken more human lives (several hundred million in less than 80 years) in order to suppress freedom of thought AND religion than all "religious" wars put together. All of them humanists. As scientific methods mature, nations industrialize and humans press through time to frantically eliminate God, I still see war, I still see hunger, I still see hate. I disagree that science will eliminate all things bad.

I must be the only idiot here, but I haven't found anyone who can tell me with definitive CERTAINTY what happens after I die. Only opinions and conjecture. Both atheists and non-atheists let their opinions fly with little more than faith on either side.

In the end. It IS good to debate. It's been going on for several thousand years, with great thinkers on both sides. I doubt any harm will come to either side.

 

GREGHART

7:02 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Maybe you have a list?

Mark Seigler said:
Too many values exist within humanity that have no empirical "proof" for that to hold water.

Perhaps you could list those for us? Even two or three would be a terrific start.

 

MARK SEIGLER

8:12 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Here you go. . .

Love, hope, faith, joy, depression, sadness, wonder, intuition, belief. . . I don't have empirical proof that everyone has these emotions. You and I don't empirically experience other's emotions,
only their outward manifestations. I wouldn't consider it ignorant to believe everyone does have them. But I don't have proof. Why on Earth would I suspend critical thinking just because I can't "feel" someone's emotions? Or I can't "prove" them. I can't feel them, therefore, you don't have them?

 

PIERO

9:30 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Bollocks!

I'm sorry, Mark, but your list is rather pathetic. "Love", like "God", is one of those words you can distort ad libitum to make it fit any meaning you like. Do you love your partner? Do you love your children? Do you love your parents? Is your feeling the same in each case? If not, then why use the word "love" as if it meant something definite and unequivocal?

Is faith a value? Why?

Is depression a value?

Is sadness a value? We can agree it is a mental state, but a value?

Is wonder a value?

Is intuition a value?

Is belief a value? The nazis believed they were the superior race. Is that a commendable state of mind?

Maybe you need a couple of quiet hours when you can try to reconcile your opinions with logic.

 

FLATIRON

9:42 PM ET

January 5, 2010

You ask for the proof of a negative?

says MARK SEIGLER: "To scientifically or biologically try to disprove the existence of God has never met with success."

If you base your opinion on an outcome impossible by definition, you've already packed it in...

No negative will ever be proven.

On the alternate front, just one credible piece of evidence that something other than a rotting body is all that follows death and you've got a whole new ballgame!

Regarding the professers of religion that do evil vs. the non-religious evil persons of historical note.

Maybe they are all just psychopaths, making such comparisons pointless. Still, when such actions are done in the name of a religion or the state, and the public does not rise in opposition, there is some complicity be it religious or statist.

Saying "I don't have any way to know" and "you haven't shown me evidence" is not what I would classify as faith.

 

MARK SEIGLER

11:09 AM ET

January 6, 2010

And here YOU go.

Gosh. . . You really got me there with the regurgitated questions.

Beyond (correctly so) pointing out that "value" was poor choice or words, I think you missed the point here Piero. I could have really stuck ANY word in. Let's can them attributes, and concentrate on "faith".

Here's the premise that was said. "Faith is still just willful ignorance, and once you've accepted as truth something which cannot be proved you've already suspended critical thinking."

Let me ask the burning question again. Can you tell me with definitive CERTAINTY what happens after I die. No? Ok. I have "faith" that some part of me will continue on after my body dies (although I have NO EMPIRICAL SCIENTIFIC PROOF). I'm assuming you have "faith" that you won't continue after your body dies (although you have NO EMPIRICAL SCIENTIFIC PROOF).

Now, stay with me Betty, you and I both would have to SUSPEND CRITICAL THINKING because we are accepting as truth, by faith, that there either is, or is not an afterlife without being able to prove either.

I'm not going to assume you are "willfully ignorant" because you have "faith" you will not continue, even though you cannot "prove" you won't continue. You and I can still have a critically thought out dialog.

 

MARK SEIGLER

11:22 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Ok.

Sounds reasonable FLATIRON. Good point.

The afterlife is still one of those unknowns.

 

PIERO

1:40 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Reasonable and unreasonable conjectures

Mark, as you rightly point out, I cannot prove to you that an afterlife does not exist. However, it is the nature of non-existence that no evidence can be found to support it. Can you prove to me that you've never eaten a cockroach?

However, when we make claims about non-existence what we usually mean is that there is no evidence for existence. If this were not so, we woud have to be agnostic about an infinite amount of crazy claims.

I don't believe in an afterlife for the same reasons you don't believe in the tooth fairy: there is no evidence for it. I suppose you consider it reasonable not to believe in the tooth fairy, and hence you should consider it reasonable not to believe in an afterlife. The fact that your emotional response to the second is more intense has no bearing on the likelihood of the claim.

 

MARK SEIGLER

3:23 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Fair enough . . .

Christianity hangs it hat on the historical resurrection of Jesus. Dead guy coming back to life. Without that, there would be no Christianity. How does history treat that? Well, in all honesty, 50/50. Tooth fairies don't make this claim. After 2000 years of microscopic scrutiny, there's still a possibility (credible evidence) this was an historic event. There really is no definitive yes or no. I've studied both sides for 40 years. So what do we do with the central figure of the historical Jesus? Fortunately, we are free to believe or not.

Looks like there are plenty of people who have had faith and lost it, and those who have lost it and re-acquired it. Mine, I fumble like a wet football down an endless field.

I'm pretty sure I've eaten cockroach bits and pieces according to consumer data on processed foods. Yuck. I also apologize to you for spilling over sarcastically.

 

JDHUEY

3:28 PM ET

January 6, 2010

"No negative will ever be proven." Not so.

This statement gets tossed around so much that people just accept that it is true but it is not universally true. It is possible, under certain conditions, to prove that a negative is true. There are formal treatments on the subject that show when you can prove a negative but I will leave that research to the interested reader. But basically, when you can do a universal search and the positive consequence that would result if the negative were false don't show up then you have proved your negative. For example, you can prove that there are no blue socks in a drawer by searching the drawer and failing to find blue socks proves that negative statement. The problem of proving a negative is when that universal search is either extremely difficult or impossible. For example, the claim that life does not exist on any other planet in the galaxy is effectively impossible to prove because it is effectively impossible to search all the planets in the galaxy. And the non-existence of 'God' is impossible to disprove for some of the formulations of 'God' (but not all). One example is when the concept is so poorly formulated that it makes no meaningful statements about the world (I think that Armstrong's drivel fits this condition), another is when the formulation includes a non-detection clause - the Pink Invisible Unicorn is a prime example. And then you have the "whack-a-mole" formulation: which ever attribute of God you are examining, the WAM God has some other attribute.

 

ERICNYC

6:39 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Ignorant Bronze Age Bedouins

The fact that we still argue over the ignorant 3200 year old pronouncements of tent dwelling bedouins only underscores how primitive we still are as a race.
Only 54 years ago... cases of books containing Ginsburgs poem: "Howl" were seized in San Francisco Harbor by the Catholic legion of decency and no one did anything to stop them.
Anyone who has taken the time to stop and talk (as I often do) to one of those people
handing out religious pamphlets on street corners knows... that once you begin to reason with them.. and make a point... thier eyes glaze over... and their minds shut off...
When faith enters... reason departs...
They are brainwashed, they are scary.... and they are dangerous...
We must recognize religion for what it really is.... A CONTAGIOUS FORM OF MENTAL ILLNESS that is deliberately spread by those who gain power and profit from it.
We ARE in a CULTURE WAR... between the forces of science and reason and modernity... and the forces of superstition, medievelism and faith.
It is a real WAR....
Decide what side you are on and sharpen your swords... friends.

 

ECCLES64

6:47 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Religious debates

I am a bedraggled refugee from the Roman Cathilic Church, now Atheist. I belong to many Atheist Groups on the Internet. Sometimes Christians join these groups, some to prosletzye, some just for curiosity. I find debating them a waste of time. I can never change their beliefs and they will never change mine.

I have Sam Harris: "End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation". They should be required reading in state schools where relgion, or "Intelligent Design" are taught as an alternative to Science.

My belief: No Creator'/God,, no Supernatural, no Afterlife.

 

AROUETE

7:02 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Arouete

Wonderful Sam!

I adore Kareen Armstrong but what she misses is addressed in a book on your wonderful reading list. “The Wings of Illusion” by John Schumaker.

Those interested in this issue might like to take a look at “Uganda Be Kidding! Ecrasez l'infame!” by San Francisco activist and retired attorney John Mortimer. See the short version at salon http://open.salon.com/blog/john_mortimer_esq/2010/01/04/uganda_be_kidding_ecrasez_linfame

And if you want to read the entire article it is as Scribd. http://www.scribd.com/doc/24795393/Ecrasez-l-infame

 

ONLEIN

7:05 PM ET

January 5, 2010

empiricism

I've been an agnostic twice and a Catholic thrice, a fallen away agnostic twice and a fallen away Catholic twice. I could never quite take on the absolutism of atheism.

Unless you have sincerely sampled something, tried it, you can't make valid blanket statements about it. So I can't say much about atheism except that I haven't really tried it, although I functioned for two separate decades as though there were no God.

Harris meditates but he seems closed to all the possibilities this practice may open to him. He keeps a lid on it. My meditation led to major distraction problems, which I sought to solve by prayer beads, hoping the mindless repitition would help. I choose beads I was familiar from my childhood: the rosary. I mouthed the sounds for a few months, paying no attention to them other than as a way of maintaining focus. I should have known better. I couldn't sincerely continue this without experiencing a change. Gradually I got over my problem with the Vatican. I drifted back to my parish. I'm now a very liberal, social justice Catholic who many Catholics would like to keep away from communion. Yet there is a reality there I have found nowhere else.

Call it a delusion or other pejoratives, I think I have been more empirical on the religion matter than many atheists, Though I am intrigued by Harris and admire his meditating and seeing something to consciousness more than an irrelevent epiphemonon. End of ramble.

 

ROYSPECKHARDT

7:26 PM ET

January 5, 2010

The danger of making religion sacred

Harris does a terrific job catching Armstrong in the biggest error of religious lefties like herself.

Progressives, religious and secular alike, must understand that protecting religion from criticism simply provides a clear path to power for fundamentalists.

When dangerous myths and bad ideas have religious origins they deserve no defense from those like Armstrong who should know better.

 

GLENNZAAH

7:29 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Disappointed

I've been impressed with a lot of what Sam has written in the past but I was disappointed with this piece.

The style of what Sam has written shows a defensiveness that makes him appear weaker than he needs to. I also think that if Sam can relax a little on the defensiveness and view Karen more as another exploring mind like himself, he will find a surprising amount of resonance between her work and his own.

It may be that our world is finally coming to grips with the bugbear of religion and perhaps we may be learning to immunise ourselves from its toxic aspects. I certainly like to think so. Perhaps some of us could assist the progress of this crucial project by being less willing to add heat to a conflict like the current one and instead to challenge minds like Sam and Karen to find the level at which they are aligned.

Fingers crossed.

 

MAXANDGUDI

7:34 PM ET

January 5, 2010

The God Fraud

I found that Sam Harris' comments were more a diatribe than a debate. Karen Armstrong's statements were much more consistent with a reasoned mind. She could easily have enumerated the many atrocities and genocides of atheists, but did not.
Neither religion nor atheism is the reason for humans' tendency to attack their own species. Ignorance and our inherited aggressive instinct (presumably an evolutionary survival trait) are the reasons We can't do much about aggression, but ignorance can be overcome by a concerted effort to promote universal liberal education. :This would be more productive than bashing religion.

 

SHAYNE

8:50 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Ignorance and religion

Unfortunately, ignorance is the foundation of all religions. Not only ignorance, but willful ignorance.

 

JNOL

7:57 PM ET

January 5, 2010

The God Fraud

All of the activities that Armstrong cites as the reason for people choosing religion can be achieved without a belief in a perfect parent in the sky. Unfortunately, one outgrowth of our very long dependency on parents as we develop into adult members of our species, is a very strong desire to maintain the wish for a perfect parent. And as we develop we either begin to realize that our mortal parentsare indeed imperfect and flawed or we maintain the illusion of the possibility of returning to the embrace of the perfect parent through religion. Along the way people are drawn to religions inwhich their parents believed, or they seek to rebell or redo their childhoods by choosing other religions. The damage that that the zealots wreak in the name of their psychological immaturity is not outweighed by the good done in the name of religion. In fact, all those good deeds can be done without being inspired by a fantasy. It's time to rid our planet of this scourge.

 

LMERRYANGEL

8:25 PM ET

January 5, 2010

MOST major religions have values/rules that promote good!

Dear Sam et.al.,
WHy can't you see that MOST major religions have come up with moral rules to keep their people/society safe and happy.
Why can't you atheists adopt those same secular values like commandments like NOT stealing--NOT killing, and the value of placing human sexuality in a sacred boundary that all major religions place it--tradtional marriage.
You might think religion has done so much harm, and with the Crusades, they were fighting savage people who would kill/rape/plunder-they fought to defend their values.
As a nurse practitioner, I have witnessed MUCH harm and researched how people who abandon the religious boundaries of mutual monogamous marriage commitment, and now millions are suffering with STD"s and teen moms with out-of-wedlock babies-trapped in poverty, , and I've interviewed many women who are now depressed , some suicidal for choosing to KILL their unborn baby-Sam, our godless society has killed over 50 million unborn babies in abortion so that people can continue to engage in hedonistic llust--they are NOT making love!
Here is a summary letter that I send to those who want to continue the LIBERAL LIE that Hollywood and atheists want to continue to spread, and I don't see Sam Harris et.al. focusing on the HARM of those secular godless views!
I want Sam et/al. to come up with a new belief system that focuses on what values keep societies healthy---start with 4-10 commandments-how can you atheists not see the value to society with rules like -NOT stealing, NOT killing, NOT stepping out of the marital boundary? --I might consider joining a secular group that includes those basic civil values, but not godless people who don't want rules!
My research focuses on the HARM to the black minority, as our own CDC shows they are engaging in pre-marital uncommitted sex at higher rates than their peers--THUS more devastation!-
Have the courage to read and respond:

I am sending you MUCH of the research -most from our own CDC and the U.S. Census Bureau, and as an abstinence educator for the last 10 years, was honored to write a chapter in a social ethics text (summary article enclosed) which details the HIGH disparities in social ills, particularly devastating blacks and other minorities, including rates of poverty, rates of STD’s, abortion rates, as well as the devastation to youth in fatherless homes-with increased rates of criminal behavior, drug and alcohol abuse, school drop out rates, and increasing pre-term labor and infant mortality rates, as well as many other devastating statistics like emotional rates of depression and suicide rates. I hope you agree that directing ALL American youth to the HIGH expectation of abstinence education is the social IDEAL that would greatly reduce all of these ills.--We have been teaching ALL youth to abstain from drugs, alcohol, and smoking, because they harm our youth, but especially it is time NOW to direct ALL American youth to abstain from sexual activity as there are many more negative consequences related to that ONE behavioral choice
If you are NOT aware, ALL of these social ills are directly linked to people choosing to engage in pre-marital sex, and, according to your own CDC surveillance reports, black youth have MUCH higher rates of engaging in sex with more partners and at younger ages. So--why isn't the CDC, whose statistics showed a great reductions in black youth engaging in sex from 1991-2005- a drop from 81% in 1991 down to 67% in 2005, and for ALL High School students the drop was from 54 % in 1991 to 47%--again the most significant drops were for black youth, DEMANDING more money to be targeted to abstinence programs which direct youth to exercise self control and not be exposed to all of the negative consequences? . THe Heritage Foundation credits abstinence education as the most effective contributing factor to these great reductions. NOW-Planned Parenthood and SIECUS--condom advocate groups-- want to end funding for this healthy, responsible directive, and I think groups like yours with the detailed data on health disparities need to ask for a bi-partisan panel to look at how successful abstinence funding has been since 1996!
I believe the CDC should be using a medical cessation model like the one we use in our women's care clinic for all sexually active youth, similar to the 5 A's smoking cessation model-why wouldn't the CDC mandate that healthy directive in ALL health Departments, and state and federally-funded family planning clinics, and begin a healthy behavioral model to reduce these sad statistics? THe Medical Cessation Model was started at the Medical Institute for Sexual Health http://medinstitute.org -you REALLY need to join this highly successful team who TRULY care about our youth!

I hope you will take some time to review the data, as there is GREAT news on the reduction of teen sexual activity and other social ills like STD’s and fatherless households, since we began funding this healthy responsible directive in 1996-the decreases in sexual activity for black youth are especially hopeful! We are now seeing the dramatic results, and I also am hoping that you will promote policies in schools, and faith-based organizations to join the abstinence advocates in this country who want EVERY American child to have access to this healthy, responsible directive, so that we continue to see dramatic reductions in all of these social ills.

The condom advocates who want ALL of the sex-ed funding purposely misled with this Mathmatica study, because it about the MONEY--not the health of American youth, the new administration has proposed cutting the funding for abstinence on the basis of the misleading data.
PLEASE read the information carefully, and I would be honored to discuss in detail how abstinence directives should be a HIGH priority for ALL concerned about these ills. Although we have numbers for white and Hispanic youth, which are also very troubling, the sad numbers reflect that black youth are particularly negatively affected.

Blacks account for 12-13% of the U.S. population--yet they have higher numbers as a percentage of their race in all of the following social ills:
POVERTY-The #1 group trapped in poverty are single female -headed
households--NO marriage--sadly, blacks have a 70% out--of-wedlock birth rate--so more will be trapped in poverty. Choosing to engage in sex before marriage is the contributing factor! Time Magazine recently had the statistic that we spend $500 billion on poverty-related programs.
STD's --Blacks have higher numbers of ALL STD's -not just HIV/AIDS--which in
some areas they account for 50% of the new cases--but also for Herpes,
Chlamydia, Gonorrhea..and others,.-we know that STD’s are directly related to sexual choices-very few to rape/incest! One estimate noted that we spend $20 billion on screening/treatment.
CRIME--We know that black youth engage in higher rates of criminal behavior and on
more black victims--we also know that 70% of the men in prison came from
homes with NO fathers--NO marriage--thus NO positive role model--people
making sexual choices, but then abandon their responsibility! How does one begin to factor the costs of an unproductive life spent behind bars, along with the estimated $40,000/year per inmate for upkeep in prison?
ABORTION--We know that since 1973-Roe v. Wade that 45 million unborn babies
have been KILLED in legal abortion--BUT 1/3rd of those-15 million-- were
black and Planned Parenthood-et.al. sets up more inner city abortion clinics
targeting blacks-Black Americans for Life calls it genocide-! Statistics show that 85% of abortions are choices made by unmarried women.

If any of you claim that abortion should remain legal--PLEASE go to www.abortionno.org and view the IMMORAL reality--how can any sane person support this atrocity?

My research from the CDC states that black youth engage in sex at younger ages and with more partners than their white and Hispanic peers--so we will see more of ALL of these devastating numbers!

Now for the solution--conservatives have funded and want to expand abstinence until MARRIAGE funding so that ALL youth will understand the consequences of that behavior -teach them how to exercise self-control to avoid STD's, and so that they will not end up in poverty as a single mom or have to choose to KILL her baby in abortion. Also, we would like to teach young men that if they engage in these sexual choices, they have an obligation to commit to the mom in MARRIAGE-that it is healthy for the child to grow up with a father and a mother as we have much data on the increased rates of criminal behaviors, school drop out rates, drug and alcohol abuse from youth growing up fatherless.
I have a tape of some politicians from C-Span who say it is "unrealistic" to teach some youth abstinence--isn't that soft bigotry of LOW expectation--that blacks cannot
be taught self-control like their white peers? I believe that it is our obligation to teach
them the HIGH standard of abstinence, and we have studies which state black
youth do abstain after this healthy, responsible, moral directive of abstinence
education-! So--I hope we will begin to challenge those who say they want less poverty, less crime, less STD's, less abortion -to join with conservatives and demand abstinence education for ALL youth--so that we can greatly reduce these sad statistics-especially for blacks!
I also want to include the devastation from emotional effects of pre-marital sex like
increased rates of depression and suicide, loss of self-esteem and many
other emotional negative effects that we spend millions on counseling! Two new books, "Unprotected" by Dr. Miriam Grossman and "Hooked" by Dr. McIlhaney discuss the hormonal influence with sexual choices, and how many youth do not understand why they feel so depressed after being used/dumped after casual sex.

I PRAY that you will consider looking at the UNBELIEVABLE individual and societal costs discussed, and join those who want to make a priority to fund the healthy directive that could greatly reduce all of the aforementioned social ills.

[
We have MUCH data to support the benefits of mutual monogamous MARRAIGE-- defined by EVERY major religion as the sacred union of 1 man and 1 woman. The new data on the hormonal bonding from chemicals like oxytocin in the woman, and vasopressin and testosterone in the male, which increase with sexual activity and are designed for 2 purposes-bonding AND procreation, sadly we have seen the emotionally devastated women/men who have engaged in uncommitted casual sex !
I hope you will have the courage to respond and look at the detailed data which I can send you, which shows the individual and societal devastation, and join those like the Medical Institute in transforming the CDC in directing youth to the healthy, responsible directive.

GOD BLESS-US-EVERYONE!
Ret. Major Laura Merriott
a PROUD abstinence educator
814 835-0249 5235 Wolf Rd. Erie, Pa. 16505

Here's another sad story:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/06/29/abortions-double-premature-tot-risk-115875-21480051/

 

SOURAPPPLES

10:07 PM ET

January 5, 2010

"Why can't you atheists adopt

"Why can't you atheists adopt those same secular values like commandments like NOT stealing--NOT killing, and the value of placing human sexuality in a sacred boundary that all major religions place it--tradtional marriage."

You just made a huge claim, with no evidence and totally butchered the word secular
-Secularity (adjective form secular) is the state of being separate from religion.

Atheists generally do adapt values like not killing and not stealing, just as much as any other person would with a religion. (If not more)

And calling "traditional marriage" secular! Don't make me laugh. Go grab a dictionary, get some evidence for your claim and then come back.

 

FLATIRON

10:39 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Where do moral codes come from?

Who can demonstrate that the religions didn't adopt existing moral codes from predecessor or contemporary philosophies?

Who can show moral judgements aren't just part of our basic existence, even proceeding creation of language?

I know, it's impossible to prove a negative. On the other hand though, no one has evidence as to the source of morality.

No one truly knows where morality comes from...

BTW, did the European crusaders return the land to the Byzantine authority, i.e. their allies?

Nope, and that means those crusaders were conducting a war of aggression.

 

JONATHANBOHBOT

9:28 PM ET

January 5, 2010

On ideas, dogma, testing and their intersection

Dogma is a built-in need for useful meaning and control. Grounded in reality or not is irrelevant. Testing these ideas can be naturally uncomfortable and carries social perils.

This most powerful phenomenon is shared by the ideologist and the religionist alike. The former believes it knows while the latter knows it believes.

As long as these beliefs are useful to someone, they will resist extinction.

Necessity in whatever forms is the surest way to modify this pattern, not discourse.

Once upon a time there was a Japanese God-emperor, war changed that.
Once upon a time the roman pantheon was replaced by Christianity, top down societal engineering changed that.

Talks are self-promoting, provocative and in-group moral boosters. They are mostly entertaining.

 

ALLAHSONETRUEPROPHET

9:47 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Monotheism is the Enemy

Let the monotheists rage that their one god (whichever it may be) is the one true god. All the gods are the true gods. How many are there? Infinite! THERE IS AN "InfInItheoI." What do they want from us? To be left alone. We are ants at the picnic of the gods. Now there are a great number of bad players amongst the infinitude of gods. We are quite familiar with some of their names: "allah, yhwh, ishua." These are the kids who get off torturing the ants. And they love nothing more than setting us against one another. You know, red ants against black ants against amber ants, and so on. While it seems that all three are abominations in the mouths of the other gods, ismal is the most mean spirited of the three. Not because of any great genius of its inventor, one Mudhatmut, but rather due to the fact that he could compound his own hatefulness with the many terrible elements provided by the self-designated "chosen people" and the false apostles of ishua. The gods only want us to never bother them with our inane and conflicted prayers; not to invoke their blessing on the words that are put in their mouths; not to honor priests, mullahs, prophets and all other classes of falsifiers and purveyors of falsehood. Until we do this we will never have a moments peace.

 

RANDYLEEPUBLIC

10:10 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Just one small point re the comments here

Any individual who performs male genital mutilation on a child because the chlid's parents ask them to should have all his or her assets confiscated and held in trust to be distributed to the victims as they reach adulthood. If the parents were talked into it by a doctor, the doctor should be prosecuted as a sexual child molestor as well. The parents should be placed on probation for child abuse.

Jews who want to continue the barbarism should confine their predations to adults. If they can convince an adult to have himself disfigured, that is the right of the ADULTS involved. Leave children alone you monsters!

 

RANDYLEEPUBLIC

10:15 PM ET

January 5, 2010

I had to repeat this one.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." —Steven Weinberg (21st c.)

 

RANDYLEEPUBLIC

10:19 PM ET

January 5, 2010

One last comment

Just replace the word "religion" with the word "fear-porn" and your understanding will blossom.

 

MIKETHEINFIDEL

10:25 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Thank you, Karen Armstrong

For the lengthy bit of concern trolling.

If you don't know the meaning of that phrase, Google it. Because that is *all* her response was. There was no substance to it, apart from "gosh, guys, you sure do sound angry, maybe we should tone it down and be nicer or we'll turn everybody off."

 

MIKETHEINFIDEL

10:29 PM ET

January 5, 2010

From UrbanDictionary:

In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally.

See: Karen Armstrong.

 

RADBADGER

11:07 PM ET

January 5, 2010

religion

religion is often used to manipulate people. One of many vehicles for propaganda,like government dangerous in the wrong hands. What you believe won't change what is true. Live by the golden rule.

 

JNOL

11:36 PM ET

January 5, 2010

God as fraud

Frankly, I'm a bit tired of being "accepting" of all points of view, even if some views are so obviously childish or harmful or misguided. We're expected in "civil and polite" discourse to make room for all contributions, so much so that the conversation becomes diluted and almost meaningless. In this era of everyone's opinion being equally valid, what is of greater importance or profundity is given the same weight as the frivolous and shallow. The wish for a perfect parent - read father - in the sky is a childish, immature fantasy and should not be the basis for policy decisions or legislation. Especially nowadays when we are in such a perilous sitution caused by over population of our own species ( this being mostly driven by religiously-based misogyny preventing women from having control over their own reproduction).

 

MIMS CARTER

11:41 PM ET

January 5, 2010

religion

Karen Armstrong and her 'Charter For Compassion' campaign has tried to interpret compassion and love as the central messages of religion, saying all the bad stuff is a distortion of the true religious attitude. How I wish this were so. I have studied religion for decades and I truly do not see this. My contribution to the Charter For Compassion open discussion was to say that we should abandon all the old texts, all the old dogmas, and start fresh. Let us start the dialogue about the human condition over again, with all that we know now, all that we have recently learned. This was not a very popular attitude. However well meaning all this inter-faith, Charter For Compassion movement is, I don't see it getting us anywhere.

 

RIGHTONJEFF

11:52 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Armstrong is so blinded by

Armstrong is so blinded by political correctness she has become a classical opportunist of the first degree. Harris should not have even wasted his time with a response to the likes of her. He reflexively went to her level but skipped the political correctness. He must get bored responding to the same old apologist strategies.

 

ENLITND99

2:31 AM ET

January 6, 2010

FP does the right thing

Bravo Sam! Amazing piece. --- and thankfully Foreign Policy finally posted a reply to Armstrong's (and Wright's) absurdity.

 

RAZAUSMAN

2:34 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Karen needs a course in logic

I never gave Karen a lot of credit. Now I give her none.
Lets put aside the glaring logical errors in your argument can you please tell me where is the peaceful nature of Islam. Remember Quran is the word of God.
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

 

SEAHOUND

2:48 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Sma's Need For Calm

Sam, Sam, Sam,

Too snide, too edged, too extreme.

Your voice needs to be more relaxed and calm.

I have been enriched by your writings, as I have Karen Armstrong's.

Don't poison the waters by looping out toward the polemical fringe. Your voice too important to be damaged by that. Stay clear, calm and centered. Keep distilling the facts and arguments for us.

 

DIDACTOR

7:32 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Sam's need for calm?

I've often admired Sam for his equanimity - how he manages to keep calm when he is regularly subjected to nonsense that is facile and intellectually insulting I don't know. I suspect he must receive constant death threats and insults from the loons but I've never heard him complain. Instead, like the other non-believing champions (Hitch in particular), who regularly raise their heads above the trenches to engage and confront the worst of the drivel when it's aired in public, Sam has to bear the consequences of harsh criticism for doing so.

So, Sam, you are on my hero list and I for one thank you for taking the flak for me and others like me. You have my full trust and confidence to engage with the purveyors of nonsense in any way you see fit - we all know believers don't usually respond to reason or logic and sometimes it needs a different strategy. So go for it, you have an army of thousands (one day soon to be millions) right behind you. :-)

 

COZMIKBLINKS

8:36 AM ET

January 6, 2010

my mind.

After reading through the debate and some of the comments,it was obvious the dreary karen and some of those who commented are of the view ,religion will always persist, well, they are entitled to their opinions but they should also consider the rapid rate at which religion is waning especially among the youth,the middle class and the highly educated,this should clearly suggest a rethink to them since these category of people seem to have more involvement in the day to day activities of the world,which i'm sure will be the trend as time goes on.She also stated quite surprisingly that ''religion is about the endless search for meaning '',what a paradoxic statement ! what better way is there to find meaning than science?. In her concluding paragraph,she sounded to be begging for tolerance to debate with atheists as it enriches their knowledge base, i'm not sure any atheist who values time will waste his /her time debating with such illogical and unreasonable folks unless he/she has a lot of time to spend or for mockery and only when it becomes very necessary as in sam's case.Finally i'll like to categorically state that religion is only for the imbeciles and the mentally enslaved and since there are a lot of such people in the world i can understand why she believes people will always be running into religion or begging for it if i heard her right.

 

PASSACAGLIA

8:42 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Armstrong's oblique view

Without rancor, yes, as it is evident in the Platonic dialogues. Socrates did conduct his interrogations without malice but certainly not without his unique style of verbal harpooning against the sophists such as Gorgias, Protagoras, and especially Thrasymachos , the militant sophist of the Republic, and the self-deluded, such as the rhetorician Ion. Socrates himself was the recipient of a voiced gentleness in Plato's dialogue, Parmenides, as Parmenides, Socrates' mentor, and Zeno,Parmenides' partner in the crime of preaching monism, as they discussed the young Socrates's "coming along" in his understanding of how to come to a more truthful understanding of difficult matters. It was the Parmenidean view of a single deity, and a turn away from pantheism, that got Socrates in trouble and used, along with the charge of corruption of the Athenian youth, as an excuse to execute him although it was a subterfuge as his enemy Miletus wanted to get rid of that thorn in his side.

Contentious and divisive discourse is exactly what is needed although it is also true that listening to all sides of a question, examination of the evidence in a detached way, and open to a change in opinion is typically the rational part of the Socratic project. That is actually his whole intention: for real evidence to present a reason for conclusions.

Armstrong says her study of the history of world religion changed her views about the uselessness of religion from the assumption from her own words that for many years she wanted "nothing to do with religion," but she does not say what in the last 20 years actually compelled her to alter her views. She does not explain her epiphany.

To say that religion is a quest for transcendence is to say nothing unless there is some explanation of what transcendence means to Armstrong. Compassion is not within the sole province of religion and there is much about religions in the world today that eschews the idea of compassion, particularly the Islamic religion that she cannot deny. The rest of her list such as the endless search for meaning, creativity, and serenity, whatever that might mean, and altruistic attitude toward those suffering are also not exclusively the concerns of most of the religious, though I doubt even those things are the essential concerns of 'most' of the religious based on observation of religious peoples in the world.

The criticism of the religious fundamentalists is not a straw dog attack, there is no setting up of a proposed parallel example that is attacked then supposing criticism of real practices has been effectively dispatched. The worst manifestations of religion must be taken into account because of all the misery that can directly be attributed to religious practitioners.

I would also encourage a Socratic approach but with the clear understanding of what the Socratic method is.

 

EVERETTATTEBURY

10:54 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Karen Armstrong says: "I have

Karen Armstrong says:
"I have written at length about the desecration of religion in the crusades, inquisitions, and persecutions that have scarred human history."

You see the crusades etc as desecrations of RELIGION? No, these were the tortures and murders of PEOPLE, with religion used as the blindfold to keep others from seeing that it was wrong.

You remind me of the Muslims whose only condemnation of a terrorist attack is that it was "un-Islamic." You are more concerned with protecting the reverence given to ideas than with the actual well-being of real people. THAT is the danger of religion. But you will probably never see it.

 

DAVID Y

11:28 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Reply to Karen

Lets break down Karens example of what religion is in a Socratic manner.

“Religion is also about the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning; it was not designed to provide us with the same kind of explanations as science, but to help us to live creatively, serenely, and kindly with the suffering that is an inescapable part of the human condition.’

1. Religion is a quest for transcendence:

The quest for transcendence means the quest for the unknown, the search for what lies beyond the ordinary limits of reality or experience, being in a transcendent state.
Joseph Campbell gave this as a definition of spirituality;

“Spirituality is thus a search
For the same basic, unknown force
From which everything came,
Within which everything currently exists,
And into which everything will eventually return.
This elemental force is ultimately “unknowable.”

Religion then is a search for the truth behind the unknown, also a quest for being one and in harmony with the unknown and when ultimately reached, the unknown will not be unknown any longer. This is not any different from what science is. Science is a new and improved search method for the unknown. Instead of just thinking about what a stone, science will think about it and pick up the stone and examine it. It is searching for the same truths only with a more rational approach. It doesn’t mean all religious and spiritual searches are irrational it just means they are limited in there approach.

2. Religion is the discipline of compassion:

Science has revealed that compassion is not just a human quality. It is an inherited trait that has been passed down by our animal ancestors. Empathetic and altruistic behavior has been observed in many animal species. Compassion is a natural state of behavior for human beings with the goal of obtaining an evolutionary advantage. The golden rule has evolved not because we want to be close to God, but because we want to survive without being trampled upon by others, compassion was and still is the means. Do we need to be religious to apply compassion in our daily lives? No.

3. Religion is the endless search for meaning:

As an Atheist I’ve searched for meaning everyday of my life. What Karen has disregarded is that whether you are an Atheist or Spiritual or Religious, we are Human beings first and always. Religious people have de-humanized Atheists and put them on the defensive for thousands of years. Now when Atheist are not afraid of being killed any longer and are speaking out to be heard, the religious cry fowl, no fair, you hurt my feelings. Atheists are not calling for death; Why? Because we are compassionate despite what you may think of us. If religions are to survive, then they must evolve. They must conform to the Ethics and Morality of the times. There was a time when the search for knowledge, transcendence, and meaning where all one. it can be again, if religions and the spiritual apply the scientific method.

4. Religion was not designed to provide us with the same kind of explanations as science, but to help us to live creatively, serenely, and kindly with the suffering that is an inescapable part of the human condition:

If Mother Theresa used scientifically generated medications to ease the suffering of her patients in her dying clinics they would have suffered even less they did under her care.
Science has created technologies that have enabled humans to live with less suffering worldwide. It has opened unlimited creative possibilities with the new knowledge it has discovered. Lastly Karen you are wrong about why religion was designed. Firstly religion was not designed it evolved; perhaps it evolved because it had an evolutionary advantage or perhaps it evolved as a by-product or spandrel of some other evolutionary advantage.
The original purpose of religion was to understand, communicate and be a part of the unknown; all of which science is, and the quest for understanding is now. We now understand more than we ever did. We can’t communicate with the unknown but the unknown does communicate with us, by revealing it’s secrets one equation at a time or one discovery at a time. Lastly we have always been a part of the unknown, the unknown is that in which we live and are a part of. There is no need to feel like we are part of something bigger or transcendent because we are part of it, we have always been in a transcendental state.

 

FRANZJOSEPH

12:02 PM ET

January 6, 2010

What is so wrong with..

What is so wrong with having faith?
I'm not talking about the kind of faith that turns into a justification for being intellectually lazy, hateful or otherwise, I'm talking about the kind of faith that inspires people to act upon kindness, forgiveness, and helping those in need of help. I am not religious, but I do see value in these teachings. What so many atheists don't understand is why people believe in God(s)... For the same reason atheists so strongly believe there is no God. It's about taking a stand for something, and as a result Atheism in it's own right has become a religion, of non belief in the supernatural. I do not believe in god, but as long as a person has those fundamental teachings, forgoing any outdated values (stoning adulteresses, homophobia, sexism etc), and keeping in mind that the bible was written by man, and has continuously been re written through out history to serve a purpose for a time period, what is wrong with faith? Atheists are practicing faith as well, which many of them don't realize or refuse to admit. But it is also intellectually lazy to assume that you know what happens when you die... Which is what this boils down to. Religion is also a means for coping with death, and while many Christians believe with absolute certainty that they are going to heaven, don't most atheists also believe with certainty that there isn't an afterlife? The real problem is ego. Nobody wants to accept the fact that they may or may not be wrong, and as a result we wage wars in the name of being right, or more right than who we are fighting.

 

USALLERP

1:44 PM ET

January 6, 2010

What is wrong with Faith?

I was not brainwashed into any religion as a child, I went to Sunday School but asked the wrong questions about Dinosaurs and Noah's flood, this was back in 1963, the same auguments are been debated in Sunday school now in 2010. Incredible but true. How did we get to the Moon?

Anyway lets assume I now want to turn to God, which religion do I choose:

Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, 7thday adventist, Judaism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Janism, Shinto, Bahai'i, Sikhism, Taoism, Norse, Druid, Wicca, Witchcraft, Caodaism, Damanhur, Deism, Druze, Eckankar, Gnosticism, Hare Krishna (love the orange clothes), Ifa, Lukumi, Macumba, Voodoo, Mowahhidoon, Satanism (love the orgies), Scientology (Battlefield Earth), Unitarian, Creativity Movement, ID, Yazidi, Zoroastrianism, of course then there are the Greek and Roman Pantheons, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Flying teapot (tell me I'm wrong). Buddhist (I know not a religion wa wa). All who follow their religion are certain they are right, their God/s are the truth. And this is by no means an absolute list.

Maybe I'll create a religion aroung Lord of the Rings, it makes as much sense as the others listed above. At least we would get to kill Orcs!

What I am trying to say here is its all imaginary, most of it ancient and based upon 3rd world ignorance, its all supernatural. We owe it to ourselves to rise above these fairy tales, use our time, energy and money to address the Worlds problems not add to them. And if there is a God, rest assured he/she/it will be p***** at how we have squandered our time here.
Here endeth today's lesson

 

FRANZJOSEPH

2:47 PM ET

January 6, 2010

3rd world ignorance

Who are we as a culture though to claim that we are so much more enlightened than any 3rd world country or person. We squander the worlds resources and abuse 3rd world countries by occupying them or sending our business over there so they can work 12 hour days for pennies.
I think assuming that western culture is less ignorant than the 3rd world is an ignorant statement... I mean thats why christians send missionaries to the third world right? to make them less ignorant? A lot of horrible things happen in the name of religion in many 3rd world countries but many horrible things happen in "civilized" countries as well for religious and non religious reasons. Not to mention in the name of business, patriotism, partisanship, government... We are technologically forward, and yet we still (directly and indirectly now) oppress minorities.

 

AMA2002

1:15 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Book Sales

"But my study of the history of world religion during the past 20 years has compelled me to alter my views".

I'm sorry Karen, what has compelled you to alter your views is implicit in the effort it takes to produce a book and how to sell it to a world full of ignorant and uneducated people whose "passed down LEARNED CONCEPT of religion" poisons the world of reason.

With 85% or more of the populous religious, why would you be expected to try and market your ideas to the 15% who can think for themselves????

What a feminine point of view Armstrong, you can't possibly believe what you are saying................

 

READINGGIRL

1:52 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Religion = spirituality + politics

Karen points out that Atheists dwell on the abuses that rise from religion, and do not tell the whole story. How dull, typical and unimaginative, as EVERY argument/debate/discussion (Socratic or not) with a pro-religious acolyte hides the political agenda of religion behind the spiritual cloak that provides it justification for abuse. Kind of like buying carbon off-sets so you feel good about polluting or becoming a priest as well as a pedophile so you feel good about... (only God knows, but he has a plan).

Her point that Athiests ignore that religion is also about the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning exposes the very heart of religious abuse: all justification for religion as a spiritual path is an inherently political act. I too seek transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning, but I prefer my spirituality without politics. I am an Athiest. Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens merely expose how politics has corrupted spirituality, and does not own the spiritual or moral high ground that it uses to achieve a political agenda of control.

 

TRUTHS33K3R

2:35 PM ET

January 6, 2010

WW I & II

For those who blindly believes that religion is the cause of most violence among human beings, I have to say "WW I & II", end of arguments (almost). None of these most violent wars with big brother WWII killing almost 100 million people, was about religion, but was about power, and securing/stealing resources. All the millions of people that the Colonialist Europe has killed also had very little to do with religion.
So, sorry Frank Harris, you do have a big bull horn, but your arguments have more holes than you can count. Do check out this very informative piece http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/30/why_they_hate_us_ii_how_many_muslims_has_the_us_killed_in_the_past_30_years
by Stephen Walt in FP.

One thing is that human beings can be devious and can use anything (dog ate my homework) as an excuse to justify killing unarmed/innocent people (my money/oil was in his wallet/land, they ate our religion, we're trying to civilize/pacify/educate them, etc.). Hitler pinned Germany's poor situation on Jews, and began mass killing them, for example. In the US, settlers had to kill/drive away the natives because they (natives) were savages, and were occupying lands and resources that the settlers needed, and the list keeps going on and on...all over the world.

 

METROPHILIAC

3:15 PM ET

January 6, 2010

"[F]ar too many Muslims have

"[F]ar too many Muslims have in recent years distorted the traditional Islamic view of jihad.'

If religion did not exist, it could not be distorted. It is that simple.

Ms. Armstrong, to call your your article a "challenge" is akin to calling a mosquito bite a morbid wound. Get over yourself.

 

ABUSTRYKER

3:37 PM ET

January 6, 2010

The problems with athiests and believers

Atheists such as Harris and Chris Hitchens as well as the majority of those who posted comments here have a couple of problems they need to deal with (or keep their beliefs to themselves):
There is a great amount of disrespect to religion, God, and people who believe in religions all together by the few "enlightened" non-believers. To be able to say that "anyone with any intellect" or "anyone with any intellectual honesty" or anyone who knows anything about human nature can't believe in God is ludicrous - especially when you speak of the ethnocentrism of religious people [which I'm not arguing against here], the elitism of Karen Armstrong. Hypocrisy at it's best if you ask me.
You disrespect billions around the world because you so clearly know better in your 10-50 years of life (though, I'm assuming most of you neo-atheist groupies are college-age and young professionals) than the accumulated knowledge throughout history and the advances in the world is laughable. I pity such arrogance.
To those that say that all this technological innovation around us and art and advancement around us happened in vacuum from the beliefs and faiths of those who made them, I scoff. You don't understand the intricacies of human nature; nor do I, but I try my best and still respect others' understandings. To those who choose to purely attack Islam, I have little to say, as you get your soundbites from Islamophobes and neo-Cons and don't have the slightest idea about the debates within the religion or about the religion's teachings as a whole.

To the believers who have whimpered their responses here, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or simply agnostics who believe in God but are not adherent to a specific religion: Your responses have been very defensive and apologist. There is nothing wrong with faith and belief; no matter how hard the neo-atheists and their prophets (Hitchens, Harris, and
Dawkins primarily) try to vilify, offend, and desecrate religions and those of us who believe in them, they will not succeed. The best solution is to let their hateful rhetoric be and ignore it. All they're succeeding at is pissing people off by being offensive, thinking that they know all and will win in the end; but they don't and they won't.

Best wishes to my friends of faith, and hopefully some of the neo-atheists on here will reach enlightenment and use rationality and intellect and let go of their elitism... but then who would lead the cheer squads for Harris and his ilk?

PS: Identity groups and the political (and, of course, some religious) leaders who use them to unite their people around a cause are what lead to wars and blind ignorance - not religion itself. These leaders abuse the existence of commonalities between people, be it racial, nationalist, religious, atheist, or lingual... You are but the newest buffoons to blindly follow a leader into the darkness of blind hate and dangerous self-aggrandizement. Bravo neo-athiests... oh and Bravo, FP for leaving many many racist comments on here.

 

METROPHILIAC

4:12 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Ignoring your pompous and

Ignoring your pompous and braindead remark about "college-age and young professionals" (what use are your ostensibly advanced years if you've wasted them shaking sticks from your yard?), remember that religion is a choice one makes, and I do not have to respect anyone's choice. I respect innate qualities in people: their race, their heritage, their sexuality, their gender, and so on. These things are inalienable from the person. Religion is fleeting, so if one chooses to embrace it and its years of hatred and crime (which Armstrong, by being its foremost apologist, implicitly does), I should not have to care about or respect it any more than I should "respect" the color of one's car, or one's favorite television show, or what spice one believes produces the most delicious pasta. Religion is an opinion.

That does not mean I hate or fear any religion person. You speak of hypocrisy but your closing statement -- "You are but the newest buffoons to blindly follow a leader into the darkness of blind hate and dangerous self-aggrandizement." -- has been applied to religion since its first inception at the dawn of man, and yet you have chosen to address with it the group that is least likely to use blind faith.

 

ABUSTRYKER

8:10 PM ET

January 6, 2010

metrophiliac, I'm not talking

metrophiliac, I'm not talking about myself; Im in my 20s. I'm talking about the past few thousand years and how society has evolved. You speak of innate qualities that you respect, but to many people their religion or their relation with God are as an innate quality as their race.
And your last point, you're right and I was being sarcastic. Extremists from all religions do just that, and people who've taken Hitchens and others' manner of talking (and repeat their arguments) about the majority of the world aren't doing much better.

 

USAMA2

4:50 PM ET

January 6, 2010

The error in this debate

The error in this debate begins with the failure to group the level of the thought, rather than grouping thoughts based on spirituality. Meaning, its not reasonable to group all religions together. It is correct to mention that superstitions cannot be equal to an ideology. Animism of 1000s of years are distinct in many ways from the Abrahamic religions.

Ideology is the most comprehensive thought and religion cannot compare to it. Thus, there are grounds for discounting the role and significance of religion IF that religion does not address reality, satisfy the intellect, or fulfill mankind's needs and instincts.

However, Islam is as comprehensive if not more so as an ideology than either capitalism or communism. So merely grouping all religions together is insufficient. Islam, and some say Judaism as well, stand out from all other religions in that Islam represents an ideology comparable to capitalism and communism.

That being said, its particularly misleading to attempt to define an idea, in particular an ideology, based on its anecdotal misapplication. While there are Muslim terrorists, terrorism is a tactic used by many kinds of people regardless of their beliefs. Rather, if one wants to discuss JIHAD, then one must examine what it is, how its practiced, what is its criteria, and so forth. Its disingeniune for atheists to judge Islam as unacceptable because of the belief and practice of Jihad, given that Islam is MORE than a religion as atheists and Western thinkers depict religion: a spiritual bond only. Rather, Islam IS also an ideology.

In comparison to Jihad, the Capitalist nations, led by the West, have shown that colonial imperialism, whether the British or American styles, are its own likeness. And for Communism, ideological imperialism and assimilation are its hallmark. America, Britain, the UN at this very moment, engage in colonial imperialism in Central Asia. Almost all of the world today is defined by the conquests and legalization of capitalist imperialism wherein Western powers invaded, conquered, either completely destroyed a society and reconstructed it in their own image, or very close to this. Thus military force is critical to the perpetuity of capitalist global dominance eventhough peoples may not want it, such as in the Muslim world. Thus, The world powers and their proxies whom they have established in power throughout the world routinely use military violence and force to repress any people who do NOT want the capitalist rule over them.

Many other issues can be addressed in the light of reframing this debate based on the nature of the ideas being discussed, rather than simply accepting the academic, and prejudical, categorizations which are biased and slanted.

 

MARIANO

7:52 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Harris' hypocrisy

Was Harris out to prove that he believes that “religion responsible for ‘all human cruelty’”?
Because what he did was to strengthen that assertion by going on yet another anti-religion tirade.

He makes statements such as “If I could wave a magic wand and get rid of either rape or religion I would not hesitate to get rid of religion.”

He blames the atrocities of atheist Communists on religion.

He prescribes capital punishment for thought crime.

He blames the Jews for the Holocaust.

He titled his book “The End of Faith—Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason” and not “The End of the Various Human Nature Related Dangers to the World—Whether Faith-Based or Not.”

In short, he consistently makes extremist statements, demonstrates no balanced view and is then shocked that he is viewed as believing that “religion responsible for ‘all human cruelty.’”

If he does not like that conclusion he should change his tune.

More of his statements are listed here:
http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2009/08/atheist-quotes-atheism-quotes-sam.html

 

GARRYG24

9:45 PM ET

January 6, 2010

I tried

I tried to read Armstrong's "Think Again: God" article, but had to give up about halfway through. It was so full of nonsense, I couldn't continue without losing my temper. I refuse to let religious nuts stir me up that much anymore.

I do agree with one statement Armstrong made in her reply to Sam Harris. In reacting to Harris' "attack" on believers, she remarked that "Historically, this kind of attack only serves to make religious fundamentalists more extreme. " I'm not sure I would have used the word "extreme". "Goofy" might have been a better term. But, certainly, taking issue with the religious nuts does nothing to get them back of the track when it comes to thinking clearly or with logic.

Witness Dennis Prager and Michael Medved, radio talk-show hosts with excellently evolved minds. Both of them are perfectly willing to abandon the use of those minds when it comes to questions of religion. Prager, the worst of the two, will speak regularly with impatience and authority about what his god thinks about this or that subject.

 

LAURANCE

10:09 PM ET

January 6, 2010

No True Scotsman

First I have to grin at Sam (I'm a Sam Fan, gotta love Sam). He writes, " Let me see if I have this straight: Belief in demons, the evil eye, and the medicinal value of a cannibal feast are perversions of the real witchcraft - -which is drenched with meaning, intrinsically wholesome, integral to our humanity, and here to stay. Do I have that right?"

Oh Sam! I gather you don't know many Wiccans! This is the very exact sort of thing many new-age Wiccans assert, I kid you not! I've bumped into Wiccans who don't have a clue how the rest of the world outside of new-age woo-woo-land views witchcraft.

What you have shown us with this example is the No True Scotsman fallacy.

And I see the No True Scotsman fallacy in Karen's apology. Religion is just ducky-dandy. it's those crusaders and inquisitors who desecrated it. It's those misguided Muslims who have distorted jihad. And Karen isn't the only one. I have believer friends who tell me that no real Christian would do ____, and those terrorists aren't really proper, correct Muslims. Karen has company.

Changing the subject now, Karen writes, " Religion is also about the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning; it was not designed to provide us with the same kind of explanations as science, but to help us to live creatively, serenely, and kindly with the suffering that is an inescapable part of the human condition."

#1. What does this have to do with the existence or non-existence of some sort of deity? You don't have to have anything to do with religion and God to have compassion for other people and living things. You don't have to believe in God to experience transcendent states. You don't need any sort of religious entity to live well and cope with suffering.

My mother was a radical atheist. She said, "There's nobody here but us chickens. There's nobody up there in the sky who is going to do anything for us. Therefore it's up to us to take care of each other and be good to each other."

#2. Meaning? Why on earth must the universe mean anything? I see no need for life, existence, the universe, all the wonderful stuff that is going on to mean something else. Why isn't every moment, every minute, every nanosecond good enough without having to refer to something elsewhere?

#3. Not the same kinds of explanations as science? God created the world in six days, stopped the sun, impregnated a virgin, etc. Yes, yes, I know that moderate Christians see this as metaphor and poetry, but Christianity is a wide, wide umbrella. Forget the No True Scotsman, Karen, there are people who believe this stuff and are coming on heavy and hard with their Creationism and Intelligent Design and such-like. They believe that the Bible is literal truth. They are Christians, too, and it won't do for you to dismiss them and marginalize them. You moderate Christians and moderate Muslims need to take a hard look at your religion and ask yourselves what is happening and if there's something you should be doing about it.

Quoting Karen again, "To identify religion with its worst manifestations, claim that they represent the whole, and then demolish the straw dog thus set up does not seem a rational or useful way of conducting this important debate."

Uhhh....when did Sam and our other so-called "new atheists" (what fun! I've just discovered that Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens are referred to as "the Four Horsemen"! Isn't the internet grand? I love those guys) claim that the worst excesses represent the whole? Shame on you, Karen, you're not paying attention.

Rather, I hear these guys telling us that excesses are a significant part of religion and god-belief, and should not be whitewashed and ignored by the religious moderates. The No True Scotsman fallacy is a way for believers to distance themselves and pretend that they need not be involved and have no responsibility because it doesn't concern them.

Karen sez, "Historically, this kind of attack only serves to make religious fundamentalists more extreme."

Wow....okay, I get it. It's Sam and his buddies, those Four Horsemen, who are to blame for fundamentalist extremism. You moderates have no responsibility or need for concern whatsoever.

"Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens have flung down the gauntlet in their spirited -- some would say intemperate -- manifestos against religion. They cannot be surprised if people challenge their critique in the way that I attempted in my article."

Please don't be surprised if people challenge your rebuttal. You're missing the boat.

 

UU-RENNER

11:02 PM ET

January 6, 2010

SAM - Sarcastic Atheistic Mysticism

O.K - All this commentary is certainly interesting. I think my brain is fried, but better that it is energized by actually thinking rather that the brainwashing involved in praising all the Gods created by man to give him hope that there is something beyond this life and to somehow provide all the answers. I will forever have questions. I support science and not superstition!
There are certainly millions of degrees of adherance to reason and/or religion and none will have the best conclusion because it is all relative and the compliment of truth is ever changing. So why travel on a slippery slope? - Why not? To quote Elbert Hubbard, "Truth lies at the end of a line that makes a circle." My take is that we all should have the freedom to determine where on that circle our line might end. My true hope is that the 'determining' really involves more thinking and less blind faith. It is a never ending search.
I am of the opinion that the principles of Humanism represent the best map for my travel through this life as opposed to religious dogma. The best thing to have faith in is yourself. To live life is to enjoy the trip and the destination holds no promise.
A more important question might be what ultimate common purpose for humankind should either religion or reason support? I 'pray' that it not be residing in heaven with some supernatural God. Why can it not be a sacred or sensible regard for nature? It certainly sustains us and we should sustain it. Let religion praise it and science explain it. Our grand purpose should be simply to sustain the human species. The recent movie Avatar obviously has a somewhat pantheistic theme akin to this direction and more and more people worldwide are embracing this kind of so called 'spirituality'.
Perhaps Sam and Karen are traveling in the same general direction but taking different roads. Does our fate depend on who is in the driver's seat?
It need not be a race in either vehicle - let's enjoy the trip!
P.S - I will ride in Sam's vehicle.

 

RADBADGER

11:56 PM ET

January 6, 2010

This Blog

Man this is so much better than Dawkins book you guys should get paid

 

JACKDAVIS36

12:21 AM ET

January 7, 2010

they both have a point

There are two separate issues, as I see it. I would say Harris is right about Islam, as if there was any doubt the recent suicide bomber in Afghanistan openly advocated jihad, often saying that his ultimate dream in life was to die as a martyr in the holy war against the US and Israel. Armstrong apologizes far too much for Islam.

On a different question, the utility of religion in totality, I think Armstrong is closer to the mark. The "New Atheist" books, as many critics point out, never admit to any positive benefits from religion. (See Scott Atran and Mel Konner argue with Harris at the Beyond Belief conference in 2006.) Arthur Brooks has pointed out in an excellent book (title escapes me now) that there is a positive correlation between religion and charity, at least in the U.S. Religion is just not comparable to witchcraft, no matter how often Harris uses that analogy.

 

LAURANCE

9:07 AM ET

January 7, 2010

response to JackDavis

I can't find the page, so I can't quote. Was it Hitchens, or was it Sam? One of those guys pointed out in lovely language that religion represented early mankind's attempt to understand the universe, and as such was something positive. The author also wrote that there were good and noble things that came from religion. While our atheists are indeed plenty hard on religion (and I think religion deserves harsh criticism), they are not the overly simple, black-and-white thinkers people imagine they are.

As for religion and charity, I've noticed the seeming correlation between the two. I've wondered why, because the atheists I've known are not at all uncharitable. My atheist mother was very active in doing good works and was an example to me.

I wonder if it's because Christians have churches. They're organized. They can start soup kitchens and thrift shops. Their charities have a Christian label on them. Their good works are visible.

We atheists don't have well-organized atheist churches that allow us to found charities. The volunteer work we do is invisible. We're there, we're doing good works, too, but our work doesn't have an "atheist" label on it. Sometimes we are working, in the closet and unlabeled, among clearly identified Christians. Much of the time, however, we work in secular organizations, and the fact that we are atheists is not mentioned.

 

MIKETHEINFIDEL

6:22 PM ET

January 7, 2010

Eh?

"The "New Atheist" books, as many critics point out, never admit to any positive benefits from religion. "

Clearly you have read not even a single one of them, because they ALL do. They also suggest that we can get the same benefits without fairy tales.

 

ANTON

1:44 AM ET

January 7, 2010

God - The lazy mans answer to

God - The lazy mans answer to everything. (Unproven)
Science - Facts (answers) accumulated over many years of hard, peer reviewed, and repeatable work. (Proven)

It's your choice which one you follow.

 

DSMCCOY

1:59 AM ET

January 7, 2010

Armstrong claims to have

Armstrong claims to have formerly been something of an atheist.
She should be thankful that, unlike Islam, atheism has no death penalty for changing your mind.

She answers none of Harris's points, but merely waves her hands about muttering her usual vague distractions about "transcendence". For all her talk about examining all the evidence, she seems to have selected out the evidence which makes her feel good and ignored the rest.

Sure, maybe there was an impulse towards something like transcendence in religions of the past, but books chronicling the dream lives of superstitious men of the bronze age and medieval times are of less use to us in the modern age than the physics or biology of Aristotle.

 

VINASSA

7:37 AM ET

January 7, 2010

Religion and Nationalism

As a Brazillian observer, I figure that much of the "new atheists" radicalism against religion is based on how religion works on moralist cultures like those of the anglo-saxon countries. I think that is Sam that says that even if there are many religious moderates, religion holds the seed of extremism; but if he knew the way Catholicism happens in my country, that holds the biggest Catholic population worldwide, and where we have dozens of religious holidays when everyone go to beach instead of going to church, he´d see things by another perspective.

Also, many think that religion doesn´t match with modern western materialism. They forget how the Masonry, wich was involved in the arisal of many democracies, is mystical. And Kardecism, a 19th century version of Christianism, is a faith that preaches the importance of science, knowledge, progress, a evolving society... its Humanism with ghosts, all from a Christian point of view.

And it is also very comfortable to point the crazy atitudes of people who live literally at the other side of Earth, but the major "delusional mind-state" of Westerdon, the one the most freaks out our politics, thus our security and daily lives, is nationalism, not religion. If Latin America burns in the next 20 years, it won´t be beause of religion. If the US people bought that Hussein, sworn enemy of the Al Qaeda, was a thread to them, and believed that the raid that began in 2002 was suposed to protect them, we can´t blame it on faith either.

So, yes, I partially agree that religion is intrinsecally problematic. But why ain´t we, westerns, discussing something that is more like the top pain in the butt for our countries? I think that its because its funnier to try to change people´s mind than try to change people´s atitudes.

By the way, modern terrorism began with the Russian nihilists, who were atheists and inspired Islamic terror.

 

RADBADGER

11:08 AM ET

January 7, 2010

"science fact"

Less and less can atheists rely on science to back them. All along the physical scientists couched their theories in the term "theory". String theorists in Quantum physics now are saying all particles may be made from the same thing. They don't name the thing but its vibrational frequency is the determination of its qualities. What is the source of this vibrational energy? Some of the physicists for some time have deduced consciousness as being a part of all quantum mechanical processes. Very interesting. I read an article in "Wired" once where many of the scientists thought that only a god could explain what they have observed.

 

MIKETHEINFIDEL

6:21 PM ET

January 7, 2010

No.

You're talking about the nonsense idea of Quantum Consciousness, which has no basis in science, and only a basis in the ramblings of Deepak Chopra. Consciousness and quantum theory have NOTHING to do with each other.

Oh, and as for "many of the scientists thought that only a god could explain what they have observed", do you really not understand that this has historically been the case until we DID find an explanation? Thunder and lightning, plagues, floods, etc. It used to be the gods doing everything. Now we (most of us at least) know better.

 

RADBADGER

8:56 PM ET

January 7, 2010

Max Plank

I quote Plank " I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything we talk about,everything we regard as existing, postulates consciousness." from The Observer Jan 25 1931 He is not alone I don't think Depok Chopra is a Physisist but I do like what he has to say also.

 

GWPOLLEY

4:39 PM ET

January 7, 2010

"The God Fraud"

Fraud? How is Karen Armstrong's article fraudulent? Or is Mr. Harris saying, as he seems increasingly to do, that any sympathetic view of religion is "fraudulent"? And if he is doing that, how is his response "rational"? Reading Mr. Harris's response to Ms. Armstrong's article is like reading Ann Coulter or listening to Rush Limbaugh: the same dismissiveness, the same ridicule, sarcasm, accusations and b.s.

Dismissiveness and ridicule solve nothing. The one using it ends with egg on his own face. He gathers around him a coterie of sour, resentful people who grumble and attack everyone who don't agree with them as "the enemy".

Mr. Harris has some legitimate concerns about organized religion, which he gave eloquent voice to in his book "The End of Faith". What I've seen him give voice to recently is neither eloquent nor is it very rational. He sounds more and more like an atheist version of Jerry Falwell, and that is terribly sad.

George Polley,
Sapporo, Japan

 

MIKETHEINFIDEL

6:12 PM ET

January 7, 2010

Very simple.

It's a fraud because religion is NOT about benefiting humanity. It's about submission to authority. The 'god' that Armstrong is promoting is absolutely unfamiliar to any kind of actually religious person. She's also essentially telling the ACTUAL believers that they're doing it wrong, and they should be like her. It's elitist drivel.

 

RITAVILLE

9:24 PM ET

January 7, 2010

But so what . . .

Don't you support the right of the individual to submit to authority if they so please? People have a right to be simple and moronic in this country -- and it looks as if they are the majority. The greatest offense is a kind gesture, and the majority of the people on this planet are moral -- with or without religion. What does it achieve to put people of faith down? They aren't going to change their minds irregardless of the fact that the authority they submit to is nonexistent.

 

BOMOORE

5:23 PM ET

January 7, 2010

What is religion?

Without some agreement on what religion is, we may as well stop talking. Joe Campbell's definition (he ought to know) is that religion is the ritual presentation of the culture myth. So we can stop arguing about religion and look at cultures (and subcultures.) What is the myth and how do members act out the myth? This defination does not specify religion as having deities, or supernatural content. Nazism, communism, capitolism - all are religions. It seems a bit odd to include atheism, but it is a subculture of science; I'm not sure that we have rituals.....any ideas?

 

JEFW

1:25 AM ET

January 8, 2010

Karen Armstrong article

In her article, Ms Armstrong states that people need religion for transcendence, compassion, search for meaning, live creatively and serenely etc..... Nothing could be further from the truth. No one needs religion to achieve any of these emotional plateaus. In fact, I have found the absence of religion and the addition of critical thinking and common sense a much more positive, and very much less violent way, of achieving peace.
The fact that religions believe that they have cornered the market on "the only way to be compassionate, live creatively" is through their brand of monotheistic religious dogma is ludicrous. When will this elephant in the room finally be addressed?

 

RITAVILLE

5:06 AM ET

January 8, 2010

What other people need . . .

Why are you so definitive about what other people need? You may not need "religion for transcendence, compassion, search for meaning, live creatively and serenely etc," but there are those that do. You suggest:"The fact that religions believe that they have cornered the market on 'the only way to be compassionate, live creatively' is through their brand of monotheistic religious dogma is ludicrous." Yet, that is what the "new atheism" believes. This elephant has been addressed for thousands of years. I certainly can live without religion, but I'd never be so bold as to decide for billions of other people what they need and what they can live without.

 

TELMI

2:59 AM ET

January 8, 2010

The God Fraud

Karen, I have read several of your books, and heard that you were a nun previously. But from reading your response to Sam Harris, it is not exactly clear as to what you believe in, presently. Are you still a Catholic?

You say: "Like many religious people, I do not believe in demons." But many religious people believe in demons; Christians, for example, believe in Jesus casting out demons and there are presently over 2 billion Christians. You can’t be like many religious people, if you have stopped believing in God, because there are presently about 3.5 billion people who believe in God.

This statement of yours presents another mystery: "I have written at length about the desecration of religion in the crusades, inquisitions, and persecutions that have scarred human history." People cannot be considered to be desecrating their own religion when they are merely acting in accordance with their religious teachings. Any religion that teaches its followers to inflict destruction on outsiders – non-believers and believers of other faiths – is a religion that deserves to be bashed, not praised, would you agree?

Can you be more specific: Which religion[s] help[s] us “to live creatively, serenely, and kindly with the suffering that is an inescapable part of the human condition”?

Have you read the controversy that is raging on in Malaysia about the use of the term “Allah”? Are you aware that the Malaysian government is against the Catholic Church using the word Allah as a reference to God? Do you agree that it is absolutely unreasonable to say that “Allah” is a term that only Muslims can use and that this is another freakish, puerile example of some religious believers? If your answer is Yes, would you write to the Prime Minister of Malaysia and tell him how wrong his government is in proscribing the use of the term "Allah" by non-Muslims.

 

ABUSTRYKER

10:10 AM ET

January 8, 2010

Malaysia

Telmi, as a Muslim, I tell you that this is absolutely unreasonable. I've lived in the Arab world and all Christians openly use the term Allah for God. It is simply the Arabic term for the word God, unlike what some conservatives here think and apparently some ignorant Malaysians think, trying to hijack God's name all for themselves.

FYI, the Mlaysian High Court has overturned the 2007 decision of making the word solely for Muslims. And Christians in Malaysia have been using the term in their scriptures and other religious literature for many many years. Just because some people with nothing better to do on their hands than whine about something that should not be anyone's business in the first place. On the other hand, people here on this very post continue to show outrage and disrespect of people's belief in God/Allah because of the actions and ignorance of few people of faith. When 4.5-5 bil (at the least) people believe in a creator, and 1.2 billion Muslims believe in God, (e.g.), while only a thousand or two are Alqaeda members, and not much more actually sympathize with them, how can anyone with a straight face blame religion, rather than blame twisted worldviews of small minorities?

 

TELMI

10:26 AM ET

January 9, 2010

The God Fraud

Thank you, ABUSTRYKER, for your comment.

Although the Malaysian High Court has ruled against the Malaysian government, the latter has lodged an appeal and the High Court has issued a stay of execution of its ruling. This means until the next court judgment, the Catholic Church [and other non-Muslim parties, I suppose] are prohibited from using the term Allah; for the Church it means its publication, The Herald, cannot now use Allah to refer to God.

Allah is a term that is said to predate Islam. It seems Muslims or some Muslims in Malaysia do not want to associate Allah with the “Christian God.” But anyone reading the Koran would know that Allah is reported to be none other than the God of so-called Abraham, Moses, King David, etc.

I can’t understand the irrationality or stupidity of people who are holding positions of power, for example, government ministers, with regard to such matters. Mind-boggling! The comments coming from some politicians who are opposed to the ruling of the High Court are unbelievable.

About your views on disrespect shown to people’s belief in God/Allah, we need to review all comments on a case by case basis. I have read several debates about God/religion between non-believers and believers and found they were conducted in a very civil manner. Things can of course get out of hand whenever sensitive issues are discussed. And the subject of God/Allah is one of them.

 

CRAZYSAILR

5:59 AM ET

January 8, 2010

Quenching the thirst for knowledge

I think it was MACTHORNBERG, that made a point about the unchecked growth of Islam. This comment reminded me of a great scene in the film 'The Matrix" where Agent Smith, while interrogating Morpheus says:

"I'd like to share a revelation that I had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realized that you're not actually mammals... Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not... You move to an area, and you multiply and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. And the only way you can survive is to spread to another area... There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus... Human beings are a disease... a cancer of this planet. You are a plague. And we are the cure."

Of course in the movie, Agent Smith is one of the bad guys, and so I don’t need to tell you what happens to him.

My point is that while this is only a scene in an epic science fiction / action adventure film, it does raise an interesting and salient point about our species. Generally, I agree that we behave more like a disease than a cure.

My thought for the day... I think China has it right with their "One child" policy to control population growth. The rest of the nations of the world would do well to take a page from their playbook on this one.

The planet can't even support the number of people we currently have - much less the additional 21 million - give or take - new humans added to the planetary population each year. The new births are trending slightly downward, but not nearly enough. (77 million or so new humans are currently being born each year minus roughly 56 million deaths each year = 21 million new mouths to feed) The water alone that would be needed to quench the thirst of that many new people - if they were all using as much as we use each year here in the US, is 52 trillion, 500 billion liters per year. (52,500,000,000,000). Fortunately, the rest of the world uses about half as much water per capita than we do here in the US. Put another way, the US used 2.5 million liters of fresh water per person in 2009. That is one Olympic swimming pool per person and the rest of the world averages half an Olympic swimming pool per person.
So this means that even if we say that all of the new people coming next year use the world average, rather than the US average, we will still need an additional 26.25 trillion liters of fresh water next year.

I’m thirsty…

 

TELMI

10:43 AM ET

January 9, 2010

Quenching the thirst for knowledge

I have heard that galloping population growth is the cause of demographers' hair turning white.

You have raised a subject that truly concerns all of us.

Suffice to say, governments, and all people, worldwide should give this subject serious attention, if they have not done so.

rgds

 

CRAZYSAILR

3:57 AM ET

January 10, 2010

For Telmi's reply to "Qunching the Thirst for Knowledge"

Hi TELMI. If any governments - other than China - have given uncontrolled population growth the concern it warrants, I have seen no sign of it whatsoever.

In fact, quite to the contrary, most governments, and certainly most religions, encourage increasing their populations / followers rather than decreasing them, when it is a decrease in human population which is required if we are to have any hope of saving our world. Our insistence on ignoring the hard realities that face our planet is a form of mass insanity in my opinion.

Think tax incentives for having kids, the proselytizing of most religions, prohibition against birth control of some religions, other ways that many religions subtly encourage members to have lots of kids, the fundamentalist pro-lifers - who insist on "saving" every unborn child, regardless of whether or not the child is wanted or has a known genetic defect before being born. etc.

I'm sure someone cleverer than I could come up with many more examples of the ways in which we are ignoring the plain fact that we should be thinking about ways to intelligently shrink the population rather than increasing it. Failure to do so means the natural forces which are an important aspect of Darwinian selection must continue to try to do it for us - in ways that are usually extremely unpleasant. By that I mean famine, disease, war, genocide, severe drought and a host of other ugly indications of an unhealthy human population and by the nature of our top dog position in within it, the unwholesomeness of the current world order.

Nature seeks balance.

In other words, The human race is going to reap what it has sown, and when you open your eyes and your mind it is pretty easy to see that we have not sown enough positive in our world, and we have sown far too much negative. Nature seeks balance. So the further out of balance we allow our world to become, the more nature will try to crush us. And we don’t stand a change against the force of nature, when it is arrayed against us. If you think Hurricane Katrina or the H1N1 Flu virus was bad, these will seem like the good old days if we keep on traveling the road we currently ride on.

I realize that most of what I have mentioned as ‘proof” for my argument, is anti-religious in nature and yet I am laying the solution at the feet of our governments. Unfortunately, many of our governments have been co-opted by religion.

Here in the US, the separation of church and state that was so wisely built into our form of government by our founding fathers has been under attack by the religious for so long that in many cases, it no longer functions as it was intended to. Most people living in any western style democracy would agree that prime function of government should be to protect it’s citizens from harm to the most extent that is possible. No government that I know of except the Chinese have taken the perceived radical step of allowing only one child per family (there are some exemptions from this policy, but for the most part it is enforced and they are planning on keeping it in place for at least another 10 years. It is estimated that during the past 10 years, it has prevented more than 250 million births in China. Western governments, including the one I am proud to be a member of, seem totally incapable of even considering such a thing because of the way we toss around the term “Freedom”, and also I think to a large degree because of the unholy uproar that the religious minority would cause if anyone in power were to even suggest it. Instead, we let sleeping dogs lay, let the people have as many kids as they want - whether they can afford them or not, whether the government can keep them safe or not, whether they are going to be born healthy or not, whether the planet can support them or not. Just keep on making babies people, because more of a good thing is always good, right? I don’t think so…

So I want to leave anyone reading this with a question. What good is our freedom, going to do use after we have destroyed the one thing that every free society should cherish most – the health and happiness of its populace?

 

BOMOORE

11:22 AM ET

January 8, 2010

Brains versus Hormones

Terrorists are not peculiar to any religion: the terrorism in Northern Ireland was perpetrated by Christians, both Catholic and Protestants. Christians in the US were actively recruited by both sides to contribute money, guns, and people. Christianity is an aggressive, proselytizing movement that uses not only missionaries, but American pop culture, governmental interference and war in order to push our agenda.
Is it really that difficult to see that this might push the buttons of another aggressive proselytizing religion like Islam? And if we look to history, this is nothing new! Thestruggle between the West and East has been going on since Carthage and Rome - the battle for dominance has not been decided - no rational accomodations have been made, so we continue to blow each other up: it's Holy war, it's culture war. It's a failure to understand and solve the clash through brain power: testosterone still rules the day.
Religion is giving people false cause to be violent instead of being reasonable.

 

CLEARPURSUIT

6:18 PM ET

January 9, 2010

Civil Intercourse?!

As a secular humanist living in the United States, I am wondering if Karen Armstrong kindly would offer a helpful time-frame to the monotheists living here. Within this time-frame, the monotheists must, finally, "get their religion right," or dissolve their religion.

This may seem harsh, but many of us have been waiting for a long time and our patience understandably is running thin. You see, the last fifty centuries of Judeo-Christian religion have created a bulwark preventing gay and lesbian people from loving and creating families. That religious bulwark maintains its injustice, shockingly, under the color of the Constitution of the United States. As other nations abandon this relic of tribal religious barbarism, religious believers in the United States primarily are responsible for thwarting such efforts. We'd like to have our families now, thank you.

Oh, one more thing, those darned airports. Maybe Karen Armstrong could propose a time-line that would shorten those dreadful lines. You see, while there is no network of devoted atheists running around the globe detonating themselves and killing thousands of innocents, there is such a religious network. How about a helpful time-line for them, too? Thanks a bunch.

 

CRAZYSAILR

4:32 AM ET

January 10, 2010

Not sure what you mean: "get their religion right,"

Hi ClearPursuit,

I am also a secular humanist living in the US, but I'm not sure what you meant by "get their religion right," or dissolve their religion."

Can you expound on this concept a bit? What I mean is how can a religion be made "right"? And how would they disband if they fail to meet their target date? Tell everyone: "go home and never come back to church, mosque or synagogue again?" LOL. Sorry. I'm not giving you a hard time... it's kinda late here on the west coast, and I should probably get some sleep ;-)

Cheers!

 

CLEARPURSUIT

12:34 PM ET

January 10, 2010

Karen Armstrong and "Getting Religion Right"

Hi Crazysailr.

I have no idea what it would mean for monotheists to "get their religion right." What I do know is that Karen Armstrong says "Like art, religion is difficult to do well and is often done badly; like sex, it is often tragically abused." That is a frank admission (and one that is hard to avoid in light of the largely religious bloodbath that we call Western Civilization, as well as ongoing human detonations and LGBT persecutions). Perhaps Armstrong means "stop doing your religion that way - do it my way." It is difficult to know what so-called "religious moderates" mean when their religious texts and centuries of religious tradition float in-and-out of allegorical interpretation. This is especially true when the most literal and barbaric religious interpretations are flourishing, such as the increasing network of Islamic violence and the proposed execution/imprisonment of LGBT people by African Christians.

In any event, civilized societies and ordinary human decency abhor human detonations and the execution of LGBT people. Nevertheless, perhaps the monotheists need a bit more time. Giving Karen Armstrong's interpretation a generous benefit of the doubt, the question is how long should we wait before suggesting that these religions dissolve?

 

CRAZYSAILR

2:53 PM ET

January 10, 2010

Keep on trying...

It’s an interesting question. “… how long should we wait before suggesting that these religions dissolve?”
I’m curious if you were hoping Karen Armstrong to attempt an answer this question for you, what would you want her answer to be?

Since I have never known any of the authors of articles that get posted into these kind of forums to actually involve themselves in the forum conversations themselves, I’m afraid we would be waiting a long time for a response for Karen herself… However, that being said, I think that if you have ever asked a religious person whether they would be willing to abandon their faith and their religion even if you could prove to them beyond any doubt that it would do the world some real good, most would turn you down cold. Most would not hear the question, nor would they understand any proof which you might offer up.

My answer - for what it’s worth - is we should not wait any time at all. In my opinion, religions can’t dissolve themselves; any more than a rock can dissolve itself. It takes eons of time and a lot of water to dissolve a rock, and the same can probably be said of dissolving a religion. It’s an evolutionary process, and given the heavily fortified and dug in nature of the major religions “alive” in our world today, it is going to take more time than you or I have to spend on the effort. Sorry to be such bummer, but I try to call it like I see it.

However, don’t get me wrong. I definitely advocate keeping up the struggle. The best way to change the world is by engaging in the pursuit of what make you truly happy. Keep thinking, writing and acting in ways that prove to the people around you that you don’t need religion to be a happy contributing member of our society, and keep struggling to be the best planetary citizen that you can be in the most creative ways that you can think of. Think globally and act locally.

 

ANORACLE

9:03 PM ET

January 9, 2010

GOD FREAKS

Religious Freedom is Freedom To Corrupt Humanity

------------------------------------------GOD FREAKS
Isn’t it time YOU “God” freaks wake! to the fact that every truly intelligent person on earth today is anti-religious, anti-supersticious, ANTI-"GOD" anti-first cause, anti-creator, anti-intelligent designer, and, anti-anything else some thieving charlatan pedophile, OR other HOPELESS IDIOT, decides to refer to or ‘designate’ as a “God”?
People that reject, and expose such schemes as the Ponzi-racketeering religious enterprises that pretend to benefit mankind by promoting outrageous lies, and brainwashing, mesmerizing and indoctrinating innocent children and fools ought to be highly respected for their sometimes dangerous efforts to rid humanity of those corrupters of people they convert to shills and criminal cohorts in their ceaseless felonious efforts to enslave all mankind! And, America’s right-wing Christian fundamentalists are a major part of this very serious threat!
The worst form of child abuse is corrupting their minds!

 

MARK SEIGLER

1:26 PM ET

January 12, 2010

Re: GOD FREAKS

Is it embarrassing for you to be so incredibly hateful and misinformed? If not, then that explains your pointless rant.

To your "people that reject, and expose such schemes as the Ponzi-racketeering religious enterprises . . ." I say bravo! You are right.

To your "Isn’t it time YOU “God” freaks wake! to the fact that every truly intelligent person on earth today is anti-religious. . ." Have you attended any form of school yet? Even Eienstein believed in the existence of God in the recanting of the "Cosmological constant". Or maybe you just don't know that being anti-first-cause, no matter spawns matter, flies in the face of every branch of science. Ever heard of Anthony Flew, atheist kingpin? The go to guy, the agent K of atheism? Obviously not. Check him out and then tell me he's a hopeless idiot. Like him, if you "follow the evidence", you'll back off being so rude.

 

ANORACLE

9:24 PM ET

January 9, 2010

----------------------------Religions are 'Organized Crime'!

------------------Religious Freedom is Freedom To Corrupt Humanity
------------
-----------------------------Religions are 'Organized Crime'!
------------
--------------Religious Freedom is Freedom To Corrupt Humanity

Centuries ago 'Creationsts' decided to use INDOCTRINATION of innocent young children as the absolute most effective method of spreading and infecting the masses with a sick disease of the mind through all following generations of Humanity with the devastating effect of creating millions upon millions of imbercile toady enslaved robotic cohortic proselytizers who unwittingly abet the 'Creationists' horrendous scheme of mental debauchery for the purpose of enriching themselves through perpetrating never ending
----------------------------------------MIND CONTROL!
------------
-----------------The worst form of chld abuse is corrupting their minds!

 

SALBERS

7:22 AM ET

January 10, 2010

Stephen

Karen Armstrong completely misses one very important and perhaps transcendent function of “what religion is about”, namely entertainment. Even more than explaining existence, worldwide organized religion is very much in the “boredom-killing business”. Add to that a dark pervasive lemming-like human trait and you have a discipline where the truth hardly matters, just like the truth does not matter in the “Star Wars” trilogy. Looking upon it as pure entertainment explains a great deal of its appeal – the bloodier the better.

 

SA

10:00 PM ET

January 10, 2010

Valid Points by Both

I'm a huge fan of Sam Harris, and he is absolutely correct in his views of religion -- it's silly, it's dangerous, it's illogical, it's infuriating, it's not based on any evidence whatsoever, etc.

Yet Karen Armstrong is also correct with her approach. You can't cram anything down anyone's throat and expect acceptance. Berating people's religion (although justified on an intellectual level) will only makes the religious crowd dig in deeper to defend what they see as sacred and holy.

Nothing about religion is rational. The way to "cure" it is gradually through better education, by teaching critical thinking skills, and by exposing people to different cultures and thought processes.

 

ANONYMOUS_BLOGGER

8:55 AM ET

January 11, 2010

Adjective

I will describe here 200+ comments on FP with just ONE adjective!

NAIVE.

Wikipedia: "Naïve is a French loanword (adjective, form of naïf) indicating having or showing a lack of experience, understanding or sophistication."

 

RADBADGER

10:33 AM ET

January 11, 2010

Naive?

Oh Please Mr Anonymous, most gracious, eloquant, benefactor, source of all Knowing teach me how to spell and fill us all into your insight an overall view of the problems we face here. My idea that I think would help matters would be i f the government would refrain from establishment of religion by giving their favorite herrings tax exemption. Allso making all charitable tax exempt orgs. contribute at least half the money they take in to those in need before they reach tax exempt status.

 

PATRICK ALTENA

12:54 PM ET

January 13, 2010

One simple question remains open..

Karen Amstrong is right: there are many religious people who are friendly, compassionate, peaceful and wise and most of them will tell you that this is becaus God or the gods wants them be like that. But there are also many people who are violent, full of hate, narrow-minded and stupid because and they and many of them will say this is because God of the gds want them to be like that...
And believe it or not, there are even atheists who are...get my point?

In one word: neither atheïsm nor the belief in God as such make people compassionate and wise. As the philosopher Kant observed more than two centuries ago, there is no foundation for moral.
'
If religion means 'believing in the existence of a supreme being that is interested our human existence and capable of influencing it' there is simply no argument for the existence of such a being. This discussion shouldn't be confused with discussions about morality, which Armstrong, as so many theologians often tend to do.

A long introducton to my simple question: Wha's the point of believing in the existence of an entity (let's call it god) of which it is very unlikely that it exists if it can either used as an argument for violent as for peaceful behavior, for stupidity as for wisdom?

For it worth: I'm nearly fifty, started my life as a Roman Catholic , studied theology and even seriously considered to become a priest. Unlike Karen Armstrong I developped in quite the opposite direction. Although it might be considered rude, but I fail to see why the mere fact that Karen Armstrong develloped from atheïsm towards religion should be mentioned.

 

MANYAKPISCO

12:33 PM ET

January 15, 2010

adam

t me say that I do get spooked whenever Western Muslims advocate the murder of apos-indirmeden izle-inndir-albüm indir-liseli kizlar-sex-firikik-yesilcam pornosu-anal sikis-macini izle-full indir-canli sikis--uzun pornolar----full porno indir-----18lik porno--canli porno kanallari--tates (as 36 percent of Muslim young adults do in Britain). But I now know that these freedom-loving people just "want to see God reflected more clearly in public life."

I will call my friend Ayaan Hirsi Ali at once and encourage her to come out of hiding: Come on out, dear. Karen says the ünlü pornosu-
xvideos--vidyo---">günlükfilm----ünlü pornosu-
-----
coast is clear. As it turns out, those people who have been calling for your murder don't understand Islam any better than we do.

Armstrong assures us that because religion has existed for millennia, it is here to stay. Of course, the same couhemsire sikisld be said about a preoccupation with witchcraft, which has also been a cultural universal. The belief in the curative powers of h

 

JESPERK

7:28 AM ET

January 31, 2010

One kinda stops listening when

someone presuably knowledable says "Religion is also about the quest for transcendence, the discipline of compassion, and the endless search for meaning; it was not designed to provide us with the same kind of explanations as science"

Come on. It's in plain view that religion does indeed try to provide us with explanations of real, observable phenomena. If Karen can't see that she's must have some sort of mental condition. Of course religious explanations aren't the *same* as those science provides since most religious explanations were created at the time in history where humans knew almost nothing about anything.

Through evolution humans have been equipped with a very powerful model: intentionality. It works great for explaining and predicting other people's behavior, and for a big part it works on inanimate objects as well and for the majority of humanity's evolutioin it's been a rather moot point to try and get at the real causes for things happening, because it's only rather lately we've been able to crack up the lid to the Universe's secrets.

Some people, of course, can't seem to let go of this strong desire to interpret things as if an intentional sentient being were behind things that happen. We've all heard the distasteful comments of even higher up clergy blaming decadence, immorality and homosexuality for the 9/11 incident, the tsunami in Asia and, well, I bet some felt Haiti had it coming too.

In other words: real stuff in the real world happens BECAUSE of something, and the "something" offered as the cause is God. Namely, the God of the Gaps.