Eurabian Follies

The shoddy and just plain wrong genre that refuses to die. 

BY JUSTIN VAÏSSE | JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2010

In this sense, many of these books offer a variation on the conservative Cold War vision of Europe as vulnerable to the spread of communism -- only now, Muslims have replaced Soviets and Euro-communists as the enemies. The continuity in clichés with the Europhobic literature of the 1970s and 1980s is striking: In both periods Europe is described with terms like appeasing, impotent, asexual, feminine, post-nationalistic, irreligious, apologetic, self-loathing, naive, decadent, and so forth.

Clichés are not the only reason why the foundations of the Eurabia literature are shaky. By relying chiefly on anecdotes rather than data, these books misrepresent the complex evolving picture of Islam in Europe. They also eliminate social and economic conditions, including discrimination, from the picture. "There is considerably more phobia vis-à-vis Westerners and things Western than Islamophobia," Laqueur opines in The Last Days of Europe (2007). Leaving out poverty and racism (which, pace Laqueur, is a daily problem for Europe's nonwhites, Muslim or not), the Eurabia writers overemphasize culture and religion in explaining tensions and lay the blame solely on Muslims.

After the 2005 riots in French banlieues, for example, independent studies pointed to the same factors: police violence, discrimination, unemployment, and a large youth population in the housing projects where the trouble erupted. But the Eurabia authors weren't impressed. Immigrants don't have much to complain about, they claim, so the riots were all about jihad, or, as Caldwell suggests in his recent book, "the Arab cause." "Even if they did not believe in Islam, they believed in Team Islam," he writes.

This is not, of course, to suggest that things are going well. The bleak vignettes and shocking tales about social tensions and violence linked to Islamism, like the killing of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, are indeed part of the picture. But the paradox of this genre is that it dwells on the heated controversies and tensions taking place in Europe while at the same time claiming that Europeans are in denial of their problems. And the emphasis on the anecdotal tends to obscure the fact that, from the fight over minarets in Switzerland to the debate over headscarves in France, current tensions are part of a normal and democratic process of adjustment, not the first signs of an impending catastrophe.

Beyond all the sloppy anecdotal evidence, the Eurabia literature relies on two major false assumptions. The first is demographic. The literature holds that Europe will be Islamic at the end of the century "at the very latest," with Muslim majorities in some European countries "in the foreseeable future," in the words of Bernard Lewis in his 2007 pamphlet, "Europe and Islam." That's because "native populations are aging and fading and being supplanted remorselessly by a young Muslim demographic," Steyn explains in America Alone (2006). "Europe will be semi-Islamic in its politico-cultural character within a generation."

If these books insist so much on the future, it is because current figures are unimpressive. According to the higher range of estimates by the U.S. National Intelligence Council (NIC), there are already as many as 18 million Muslims in Western Europe, or 4.5 percent of the population. The percentage is even lower for the 27-country European Union as a whole. The future will certainly see an increase, but it's hard to imagine that Europe will even reach the 10 percent mark (except in some countries or cities). For one thing, as the same NIC study indicates and demographers agree, fertility rates among Muslims are sharply declining as children of immigrants gradually conform to prevailing social and economic norms. Nor is immigration still a major source of newly minted European Muslims. Only about 500,000 people a year come legally to Europe from Muslim-majority countries, with an even smaller number coming illegally -- meaning that the annual influx is a fraction of a percent of the European population.

ILLUSTRATION BY HEADS OF STATE FOR FP

 SUBJECTS: RELIGION, ISLAM, EUROPE
 

Justin Vaïsse is senior fellow at the Brookings Institution's Center on the United States and Europe and co-author of Integrating Islam: Political and Religious Challenges in Contemporary France.

ANDREYSHAHMIDYEV

2:39 AM ET

January 4, 2010

Typical Western Hypocrisy

Not good is it ? when its propagandas aimed the " Dying Europe "
with a low Birth Rate in EU like Italy, Greece, Spain, Lithuania, UK, Germany and Estonia, with immigrants compromising 80% of the high birth rates like in France
Germany and Neatherlands...

I suggest the author get a proper education, and learn than demographics
is not everything and is never a basis in foretelling the future of a country

The color of the skin may change but that is expected like in USA
by 2040 Hispanics will make up 60% of the American population due to
Anglo-Americans low birth rates and high hispanic immigration and birth
Sounds like a good propagnda ??? too bad its aimed at the west
as typical , " You get a Panic Reaction " :))

 

SABABA03

9:20 PM ET

January 4, 2010

Ideology and its effect.

I for one, have no problem with people migrating from one country into another. Many countries like USA, Israel, Austrlia, and Canads have been enriched by the influx of immogrants into these country. As long as they bring with them an ideology which can augment, or improve the standard of life in those host countries.

The core issue is not whether "Muslims,", "Jews", "Hindus" or "Christians". Nor a Chinese, Japanese, or a Koeran ones immigrate into new country. Rather, it has everything to do with the core ideology and phylosophy of life, and their affect on their respective surroundings which new immigrants bring with them.

Every year millions of people from all walks of life, race, religion, and color immigrate from their respective country, and seek new life in their new host country - ready to learn and participate with new social, economical and political ideologies, to which they perceive, could provide them with better quality of life.

None of those western countries I had mentioned could have been advanced in technology, freedom of expression, and high level standard livings w/o those immigrants who brought with them pragmatism, and fresh ideas, and "can do" attitiute.

Unfortunately, statistics clearly show that, absolute majority of Muslims who immigrate to Western countries, do not share with these core realities. Due to the rigid and uncompromising of Islam which demands strict adherence to the Quran. Forbids any deviations from a rigidly structured socio/political system, coupled with elaborate and entrenched cultural dogma, Muslim are unable to contribute much to their host counties.

That issue is further exasperated when Islamic clergies throughout the Arab & Islamic countries, drill in the head of the masses that, "Islam is superior to either Judea, or Christianity". In other words, Muslims migrate to western societies, expecting the "backwards", and the "filthy Europeans", will bow to their glory bygone some 900 years ago. while themselves, all they are able to demonstrate, is set of (Sharia) laws which clearly is anathema to Judea-Christianity's core belief in crime & punishment..

What I am trying to stress is,that, Muslims want to take the western societies back to the dark ages of beheading, flogging, and stoning woman for being raped.

Unfortunately they bring nothing of value which locals could embrace and adapt, much like many other immigrants had done in their new adapted countries.

 

SQUEEDLE

5:13 PM ET

January 5, 2010

"What I am trying to stress

"What I am trying to stress is,that, Muslims want to take the western societies back to the dark ages of beheading, flogging, and stoning woman for being raped."

If "they" want that, why did they emigrate to Europe in the first place? One has to ask if a Muslim family prefers Sharia to secular rule, why would they leave a majority Muslim country to go to a majority Christian and/or secularly ruled country? I don't observe any such Muslims butting their way into national politics and instituting the veil. The Muslim immigrants that make it to the public and political scene tend to look like Europeans except for the dark skin. This doesn't really fit your profile very well, eh?

Perhaps what "they" really want, aside from a scant handful, is a better life for themselves and their children. Maybe Europeans should consider letting them have access that. But since Europeans have continued to hone their bigotry skills on Rroma and Jews, I'm not holding my breath.

 

SABABA03

10:13 PM ET

January 5, 2010

Don't lsiten to me. Listen to Wafa Sultan

In case you are not familiar with this remarkable lady. She is a psycahtorist who was born and grew up in Syria. After witnessing her own professor being murdered in front of his class by an Islamist, She fled not only her country, also left Islam altogether.

Today she resides "somewhere" in Los Angeles area. For more the 10 years she was involved with the Muslims communities in the LA area, where she heard Muslims confiding to her (her words not mine), of their real agenda here in US. Covert American under Islam, and replace US constituton with Sharia Law.
Please watch her saying it with her own words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8n-JYdpxU4

 

SEYASI

7:51 AM ET

January 12, 2010

So you believe anyything Wafa Sultan says?

Some poeple say that Jews want to rule the world! There is even a book called “The Protocols of The Elders of Zionism.” Should I believe that too? Are you aware that Sultan has stated in the past that the Christian Crusades, where many Muslims and Jews were slaughtered, were just & right? She made many such hatful statements against Muslims & Islam as a religion. There are many fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. who wish to end the separation of church and state & to impose their own values on the rest of society, what do you propose to do with them? Does Sultan address these people too, or is she only against Muslims?

 

RAUL

7:29 PM ET

January 5, 2010

I hope you are right but you are not convincing me

Mr Vaisse,

I don't see any reason to share your optimism. Your own figures are very disconcerting. You write that even though muslims are a small minority in Europe today, they are in fact producing between 10 and 20 % of births in what you term "high immigration countries". I presume that these high immigration countries are the U.K., Germany, France, Italy, and the Netherlands.

A baby born today will be a parent in 20 to 35 years time. When you say that between 10 and 20 % of babies born in a country are muslim in 2010, that tells us that by 2030 to 2045, 10 to 20% of that country's reproducing population will be muslim. This is of course is an understatement since it does not take into account that muslim immigration will very likely continue over the next 20 to 35 years. Even if comparative birth rates among the new immigrants fall over time to a rate closer to the native one what kind of picture are we looking at the end of thirty years? How about for the generation after that? Frankly I don't see how you can mention that 10 to 20 % statistic and brush it aside as cavalierly as you do.

 

ASIAN7

5:40 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Pro-Muslim Propaganda, Mr. Vaisse?

I am a non-Muslim from a predominantly Muslim country in Asia. YOUR article is the myth rather than those authors who raised the alarm of Arabidization or Islaminization of Europe and the West! Mr. Vaisse....either you are naive or you are deceived or are you part of the pro-Muslim Western 'liberal' propaganda spin-doctor? There is a WAR going on out there between secular, previously Judeo-Christian West and Islam - a war for power, influence and control. For centuries, the Islamic world had been ENVIOUS of Western success and humiliated by Western civilization. This time , they have a better way of absorbing the West - not by war or juhad only - but by demographically swamping your countries with THEIR people. And demography changes nations, Mr. Vaisse. My non-Muslim people are slowly becoming less in my country and soon the Muslim-majority will take what is left of our rights. It will happen to Europe if people like you deny the undeniable.

 

ASIAN7

5:52 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Islam vs Communism

Islam is a far more dangerous doctrine compared to communism. Why? Because at least in communism, their adherents knew the doctrines came from men nad can be rehabilitated but Islam claims its doctrines came from God! Don't think, in your naivete, that radical Muslims will 'succumb' to secularization once they are in the West. They believe they have a 'higher' calling - to Islamize the kaffir Europeans. Don't think they come to the West with no agenda. Be wise! Their agenda is this: Islaminization of the West. That means absolute power in the hands of the clerics. They will win if people like you continue to produce such a politically-correct trash as this.

 

KEITH5000

11:48 AM ET

January 6, 2010

Where are the facts?

I was hoping to read an article that would credibly challenge the "Eurabian" hypotheses. Instead this article is merely an assertion of the author's opinion (that Eurabia is merely hot air blown by American 9/11 scaremongers) with no facts to back it up. The only statistic you cite is that only 4.5% of Western Europe is Muslim, which a) is missing the point because your detractors are focused primarily on Britain, France, and Germany, and b) you ignore your detractors' claim that the population increase is tipped favorably towards the Muslim population, which even common sense gives credence to the theory that there will be double or triple the number of Muslims in just 50 years. The other claim you do you not dare confront is that while the adult & elderly Muslim population are mostly moderate, it is the younger generation that is much more radicalized. Either you've completely missed the points made by your detractors or you have the same affliction of perception we all saw in the infamous and hilariously naive Baghdad Bob as he asserted "The Americans are not in Baghdad!" while the bombs fell around him.

 

CJ

1:38 PM ET

January 6, 2010

Superficial demographics

Two key points:
1. Muslims do not have to be a majority to significantly alter political dynamics in a country. A politicized and self-identifying minority in a democracy can create major changes. Look at Europe's Green parties.

2. Age matters. 10% or 20% of a population doesn't sound like much, but if the majority of that 20% is under 40, and the majority of the remaining population is over 40, you will see a great deal of social strife.

Why should the admittedly un-assimilated, under-employed victims of discrimination, (as Mr. Vaisse describes them), look forward to paying high taxes to support the welfare state obligations to those they admittedly despise? Expect vocal and "rambunctious" opposition to the traditional European welfare state model in the future from the Muslim minority, among other groups.

Credit to Mark Steyn for the above points, whose book, "America Alone", Justin Vaisse has clearly not actually read.

 

BRICKO

3:00 PM ET

January 6, 2010

On Islam

Its now apparent that Mr. VAÏSSE is either in the wrong field or is very bad at his job.

Since what he is spouting is complete nonsense. He apparently has not been to Dearbornistan in the US.

They will actually kill you and will tell you so.

Thats why God makes .357 Smith & Wesson. We will eventually have to unleash it to survive.

 

ASIAN7

2:52 AM ET

January 7, 2010

Some Statistics Refuting Mr Vaisse

Below are some statistics from ONE European country - viz. Norway which completely refute this mythical article by Mr. Vaisse. All the statistics are from Statistics Norway - in case anyone thinks that I got them from 'anti-Muslim' authors. The Norwegian Government(I am not sure about the Norwegian people) are doing their best in 'de-Norwegianization' and 'de-Europeanization' as the statistics clearly show. I also believe that Islam will be the fastest growing religion in Norway and in the whole of Western Europe. Norway will be among the first European nations to de-Europeanize and others will follow. I hope we Asians will not follow the folly of these Europeans.....

http://www.ssb.no/innvstat_en/
Even now, the immigrant population in Norway has increased from negligible to more than 10% in a matter of decades.

http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/03/innvfram_en/
If you click on the projections, it is estimated that there will be substantial increase of non-Western migrants(and by extension, Muslim migrants) to up to 1 million people in 2060 even by 'medium' estimates. Remember Norway has a population of ~ 5 million or so AND the 'natural increase' of ethnic Norwegians will be negligible or may be even decreasing in the future due to below replacement TFR of about 1.8 for ethnic Norwegians('replacement TFR' is about 2.1 for most population projections). Although 'Eastern Europeans' were included in the projections involving African and Asian migrants, I consider them as 'negligible' contributions(except maybe the Poles currently but I doubt they will be in the future) because 1. The population of Eastern Europe is shrinking and cannot contribute to the migrant pool indefinitely. 2. Demographic explosion in Africa and Muslim Asia will fuel further African and Muslim Asian migrations 3. Even in the ‘medium’ variant, the TFR of Asian and African migrants will be significantly higher than the below-replacement TFR of ethnic Norwegians.

http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/01/fobinv_en/
The non-Western immigrant family has larger families than ethnic Norwegians. And believe me, Muslim non-Western families have more children than non-Muslim non-Western families. It is their religious obligation to out-breed non-Muslims.

http://www.ssb.no/innvutv_en/tab-2009-05-07-03-en.htm
Migrants by country from 1966-2008; increasing non-Western migrants – ‘top’-performers are Muslims: Iraq, Somalia, Pakistan, some Indian nationals may also be Muslims.

The end-result: the demographic demise and extinction of European peoples; Islamization and de-Europeanization of Europe.

 

NADIA BADLI

10:59 AM ET

January 7, 2010

where does this crazy guy live?

This article is a shame. This Vaisse (ofcourse a frenchman, the biggest dhimmi's of europe) just another establishment-puppet who writes down what the governing eliteswant usto believe. He so alienated, or just a pirfidious liar.

I wished he lives in my town, in belgium, where in almost one generation we have 30% muslilms and streets full with veiled women. Don't ask me where they come from, how they get here, and we have tyo do with them, or what they can do for us. It's all madness and liars like Vaisse are trying to cover it up. He's a traitor and a liar.

 

KAUTILYA

1:17 AM ET

January 8, 2010

Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics

I will make this a statistic free post for the sanity of all concerned.

Europe's Islamic minority feels alienated and rejected. This much is obvious. They don't want to assimilate because they feel that they are being made to give up something central to their identity to get... second class citizenship and pejoratives from the mainstream.

I think Europe, as opposed to India or the US has more to fear from a radicalization of its Muslim youth because for all its secular pablum, Europe still finds it difficult to properly deal with non-Christian, religious minorities.

Moreover, "integration" or "assimilation" itself has nasty connotations for minorities who feel that what they are is being classed as worthless and backward and they should adopt alien mannerisms, behaviour and thought processes because they are good and modern. If the goal of assimilation is to Europeanize all of Europe's new Islamic minorities, then I am afraid it is doomed to fail.

Europe's "Islam Problem" would diminish to a much greater extent if they stopped being hysterical (as some of the above posters are) about headscarves and minarets and learn to respect religious practices unfamiliar and non threatening to them.

 

ASIAN7

5:36 AM ET

January 8, 2010

Kautiliya and Khalid Mufti

To Kautiliya - your reply are mere ASSERTIONS but not REFUTATIONS of your antagonists.
>>I will make this a statistic free post for the sanity of all concerned. <<
So will this post be also. The statistics are not to provoke insanity but merely as proofs of points written in the posts. Without proofs, statements are mere statements.

>>I think Europe, as opposed to India or the US has more to fear from a radicalization of its Muslim youth because for all its secular pablum, Europe still finds it difficult to properly deal with non-Christian, religious minorities.
<<
This assertion is, to put it mildly, a non-truth or at best a half-truth. One wonders WHY there are NO(or at least hardly known) Hindu radicalization, Buddhist radicalization, Zorasterian radicalization in Europe if you diagnose 'secularism' as the CAUSE of Islamic radicalization. We do not hear of Hindus, Buddhists and many adherents of 'non-Christian' religions in Europe becoming suicide bombers or becoming radicals. Why? Because there is nothing inherent in these religions that SUGGESTS violence as a recourse whereas Islam is INHERENTLY a religion that at least TOLERATES VIOLENCE as a means to justify the ends. If other 'non-Christian' religious clerics and adherents in the West do not become violent even though they are minorities and face secularism as a threat to their religious beliefs, then logic has it that it is not secularism that is the cause of the violence which logic tells us that Islam is. Islam is opposed to all other religions , including philosophies like 'secularism'. While you claim of Europe's 'intolerence' you blatantly ignore the intolerance of Islam towards other faiths and ways of life. All religions are truth-claims and thus by logic intolerant of other truth claims but at least in other non-Christian religions like Buddhism and Hinduism, the policy is NON-VIOLENCE and PEACEFUL preaching but in Islam it is jihad/the sword for kaffirs to SUBMIT to the 'one pure religion of Islam'.

>>I think Europe, as opposed to India or the US has more to fear from a radicalization of its Muslim youth because for all its secular pablum, Europe still finds it difficult to properly deal with non-Christian, religious minorities. <<
Are you kidding me? Or are you being TRUE to the title of your post 'Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics'? Hello! What single communal violence had been the core of India's problems? Muslim-Hindu conflicts! How many had died in INdia - both Muslims and Hindus. Only in India do we see Hindu radicals and why so? Because of the threat they feel posed by the Indian-Muslims. Don't forget the Partition of India where the Indian-Muslim majority states broke away from former India to become the states of West and East Pakistan. Later, atrocities were committed by Pakistan against their Bangladeshi cousins that led to the division of those countries into Pakistan and Bangladesh. So many Hindus fled to India from those two states during partition for fear of Muslim wrath and reprisals. You really do not have a grip of history and reality or are you trying to pull our legs?
USA less radicalization of Muslims....you are kidding me. There are more TRUE Christians in USA than Europe and believe me they think Islam is a FALSE religion. Do you think the Muslims will accept this doctrine? Which country has the most terror attack? Which country was attacked in 9/11? Which country is the Great Satan according to the Theocratic Iranian government? Which country had a Muslim army personel murder people recently? Is that country in Europe, Kautiliya?

>>Europe's Islamic minority feels alienated and rejected. This much is obvious. They don't want to assimilate because they feel that they are being made to give up something central to their identity to get... second class citizenship and pejoratives from the mainstream<<
I want you to change some NOUNS:-
Philipine's Islamic minority(Moro) feels alienated and rejected.
Thailand's Islamic minority (south Thailand) feels alienated and rejected.
Myanmar's Islamic minority(Rohingya) feels alienated and rejected.
Nigeria's Islamic minority feels alienated and rejected.
Etc.
what do they resort to? Non-violence, Kautiliya?

>>They don't want to assimilate because they feel that they are being made to give up something central to their identity to get<<
Then, why migrate to societies they refuse to become part of? Why not remain in their home nations?

>>second class citizenship and pejoratives from the mainstream. <<
Excuse me, the typical 'excuse' for the violent feelings and hatred that Muslims have towards 'the European mainstream'. Tell that to the second-class citizens in Muslim-majority nations like the Chinese(predominantly non-Muslim) in Indonesia , or a Zoraasterian in Iran or a Christian convert in Pakistan. What about the rights of these people? Were Muslims 'nice' to these people? Weren't the Chinese looted and their women raped in the racial riots in Indonesia while their Muslim rapists shout Allahuakbhar("God is Great')? Even currently, three churches are burned and cars with rosaries or 'Christian articles' smashed in Malaysia(a Muslim-majority nation) as Muslim demonstrators march against a court order that allows the use of "Allah" in a Catholic newsletter. So much for Islamic 'tolerance' and treatment of non-Muslims when they are the majority and in power!

When Muslims are a minority in a non-Muslim country they CLAIM their rights and accuse non-Muslims ignore their rights and are 'hysterical' towards them. When Muslims become a majority , they consider non-Muslims as second class citizens whose rights will be even more trampled than any Muslim in Europe and whose lives can be snuffed out anytime as they are bound to Hellfire anyway.

The Europeans who posted so-called 'hysterical' posts are NOT hysterical. They are NOT ignorant of what Islam really is and are fearful of what entails their nations. By the way, I am not European. I am a non-Muslim Asian in a Muslim-majority Asian country and can concur with those Europeans who fear of the security threat that Islam and Muslims post to their nations. My answer to them is: their fears are NOT unfounded.

Khalid Mufti's post by itself refutes Kautiliya's and proves that the 'hysteria' of some Europeans who posted are NOT unfounded. His post reveals much about the way Muslims in general(including moderates who do not explicitly support radicals but their silence and non-condemnation implicitly do) and reveals that Islam is a threat by this last sentence "You have been warned."

>>Remember what White Christians did to the Jews of Europe, and not just in the Nazi era, but for hundreds of years before that.<<
The whites were not innocent but at least they are willing to admit their faults and guilt. Unlike Muslims who in general claim superiority and moral higher ground in spite of CURRENT and ONGOING atrocities they commit against non-Muslims in the name of religion and God. Moreover Nazism and the atrocities of white colonialists of the past were NOT consistent with the TRUE teachings of Christianity which is doctrinically a non-violent religion.

>>If violence is used against the Muslim, he will reply in kind. <<
No violence had been commited against Muslims by the victims of 9/11 and countless terrorist attacks yet they were butchered because they are 'in the West'. Buddhists, Christians, atheists, Hindus, Sikhs and even fellow Muslims died in those terrorist attacks. It also shows the shallowness of Muslim doctrine. You repay evil with evil. You think two wrongs make a right. Whereas Christ says repay evil with kindness , you repay evil with evil. Wheras the Buddhist strives for non-violence and are willing to die for non-violence, you repay violence with violence.

The way to counter fears and threats of Islam is to report and descibe what Islam REALLY is and not hide behind the facade of political-correctness.

 

KAUTILYA

12:08 AM ET

January 9, 2010

Long blocks of text hurt my eyes...

... so to re-iterate what I already said, and to counter the blatant misinterpretation of my words, a few short numbered points.

1. Europe's approach to dealing with its Islamic minorities is flawed and dangerous. Flawed because it is forcing integration where it should preach tolerance first and then look to gradually integrate. Dangerous because it can become an easy recruiting tool for radicals among Muslims.

2. Demographics are no clue to a future problem because the whole situation can change in one generation. Doomsayers from Malthusian times have been time and again been proved wrong because demographics do not follow nice linear patterns to make easy guesses about the future. That is why I refuse to use population and birth statistics to make any claim about "Europe's Islamic problem". Immigration to Europe, legitimate or otherwise, will continue to happen as long as Europe is richer and more prosperous than the rest of the world.

3. I am not excusing any violent or dangerous behaviour but only challenging the prejudice of certain persons who wish to call ALL Muslims hate-filled fascists worth of quick extermination. You can no more dump all the Muslims of Europe into the Mediterranean than you can re-start the gas chambers of Auschwitz so lets have a little less hysteria please.

4. I am not denying the existence of a problem (as some European commentators sometimes do) but only trying to point out where the fault may actually lie and it is something remediable through a little bit of thinking and understanding as opposed to "churn out the babies and start burning the Korans, the Muslims are coming!".

 

UZBEKPOLICY

1:38 PM ET

January 8, 2010

The Best Quote of the Article

"For most of these authors, Muslims are "different people," and Muslim identity is incompatible with anything else -- an assumption they share with Islamists." That is SO ON POINT AND SO TRUE, especially about most of the hysterical and arrogant posts above!

 

FAZLIDDIN

2:56 PM ET

January 8, 2010

I am American Muslim and...

I am a Muslim. I migrated to America when I was 23. I love this country more than anything else in my life. I came here because I believe I stand for our nation's values and thank God everyday that I was given this blessing to live here. And I feel proud everytime I call myself American!

For some reason, you guys above are brushing all Muslims in the world with the same color. I undersstand that it is Islam that makes the agenda these days, but I hope you realize that not all Muslims are bloody barbarians as you tend to discribe them in your scary stories. The recent study shows that majority of Muslims nowadays live in Asia (with modern civil law systems and somewhat developing democratic orders), not in Arabic countries (with complete Shariah systems and repressive orders). Russia and France are the two countries with the biggest Muslim populations in Europe.

Yes, I know not every Muslim immigrant (or even American/European born Muslim) share all these values I share with my fellow citizens. But then, not every Christian (or Jew, or atheist) American does. Here in America (or elsewhere in Europe, too), there are some Christian white boys who would happily shoot you in your head or blow you up just because, say, you believe in abortion. Bible, they say, gives them right to "kill". Or Old Tastement, for example, says a mother must kill her daughet shall she disobey her order. Believe or not, but I've actually met people defending these rules, too.

Yes, Judeo-Christian sociaeties in the West created orders outlawing this kind of religious practices. Yes, Muslim societies in Africa failed. But lets help them to catch up instead of bashing them all the day. I am sure that if we learn more about each other, we will find ways to peacefully co-exist on this planet.

And P.S. FOR THOSE GUYS posing as "Khalid Mufti" (which just made me laugh), PLEASE, GROW UP! Fake names and angry posts ain't going to bull anybody here. Yes boys, you are just trying to prove your point, I understand, but your methods deserve a smirk at best.

 

ZAOTAR

4:35 PM ET

January 8, 2010

Exemplary Delusion

Somebody forgot to hand the Swiss, the Austrians, the Germans, the Italians, et al. the memorandum explaining that they are not concerned about Muslim immigration, and that Islamophobia is simply an American myth which they fortunately do not share.

This article exemplifies a signature delusional style rife amongst the EU bureaucratic elites -- insist adamantly that there is no problem with immigration, and thus there is no problem. Then, every so often, act completely stunned and uncomprehending when vast swathes of the populace reject your inane PC mantras.

People like the author are congenitally incapable of perceiving the comic schism between their cheery official proclamations and the empirical electoral realities they are unwilling, or unable, to face. For example, it genuinely baffles them that the Swiss would have voted against new mosque minarets. They really aren't faking; such things astound them anew each time.

 

ASIAN7

4:58 PM ET

January 8, 2010

To Fazlidin and others

Fazlidin, I concur with some of your points. Agreed, some who call themselves "Christians" have misinterprated the Bible for violent ends. I have to admit that in many of my posts I might have painted ALL Muslims as bad, barbaric people. This , I believe and have to say is too sweeping a generalization. There are many Muslims I personally know who are peace-loving as well. However, there is no way that we can deny that GENERALLY in reality those things I have posted about are true. Plus for me, having read and studied the Quran myself and having an innate interest in comparative religion- although you being a Muslim yourself may angrily and vehemently disagree with me and think me ignorant or misrepresenting your faith - believe that inherent in Islam itself is a tendency for violence. Those terrorisms and cries of jihad must have supported verses in the Quran else why would any Muslim be persuaded to be one? I suggest - to Muslims and non-Muslims alike - to find out more about Islam from Muslim and non-Muslim sources in a contextual, historical and analytical way with regards to both the Quran and the Hadith. Put sense, logic, ethical standards that supposedly 'transcends' all organized religions/ethical philosophies and examining all verses(especially regarding jihad/holy war and Muhammad's historical relations with non-Muslim peoples during his lifetime) in historical and contextual analysis would, I believe, reveal Islam as a religion which does promote intolerance and violence to non-Muslims. I do think that peace-loving, moderate Muslims who oppose the violence of the Jihadist or are against terrorism of the Wahhibists have the wrong understanding of the true teachings of Islam. I hold the Al-Qaeda and the terrorists as truly practicing what Islam really preaches. Yes...my contention is a serious one with serious moral/ethical ramifications. I challenge Muslims and non-Muslims to examine my contention and not resort to such shallow propangadistic, Islam-apolegitic piece like Mr. Vaisse but examine Islam(just like critics examine Christianity, Buddhism, etc.) critically. Similarly mere assertions with no proofs(such as those by Kaultilya and Khalid Mufti) would not be good refutations of contrawise opinions. This will be my last post. I am glad that this article provoked and piqued the interests of various readers with different views. While there are many books out there critisizing Christianity in a negative way, there are hardly any balanced books on Islam which speak about views of those who view Islam in a negative sense. If any religion claims itself to be true - it must allow the freedom for everyone to critically allow its tenets and truth-claims be analysed even if the conclusion might be a negative one. Christians and Buddhists have generally allowed this to happen peacefully though of course with emotionally-charged rebuttals. I challenge Muslims who believe that some non-Muslims are WRONG about what they believe are negative aspects of Islam to allow that freedom without resorting to violence and threats and intimidation to others who may not think too positively of their faiths.

 

FAZLIDDIN

12:39 AM ET

January 10, 2010

To ASIAN7 and Mr. Balram

Sir, if you studied Islam in the same way as when you twice misspelled my name, no wonder you came to those conclusions. Besides, I really, really doubt that you did study Koran yourself, provided that there is no single version of that book in English that can mirror all the complexity of the original one, written in old Arabic, subject to all sorts of discussions and interpretations.

You drew your own conclusions but didn't provide any reasons to support them. You said you have Muslim friends and that they are peace-loving individuals, and at the same time, you agreed you tend to generalize them as "bad". How come? What kind of logic is that? In contrast to your example, I have friends who go to Church every Sunday and, at the same time, truly hate blacks and asians. This doesn't make me brush everybody in that Church with the same color.

Islam teaches us peace and tolerance, this is what I was taught by my parents. When I went to Mosque, there were some idiots who -- just like some Christians, Hindus or Jews -- tried to interpret Islam to justify violence against somebody they hated. We kicked them out. I don't know what they are doing now, maybe growing crop in Afghanistan imagining paradise when they get high, but they are CERTAINLY NOT enjoying popular support in any Muslim-dominated country.

In Islam, if you kill your self, you go to hell, if you inflict pain (physical or moral) on others, you go to hell, period. If you want to know why those religious fanatics do what they do (and, actually, that's why we call them exactly "fanatics", not normal ordinary Muslims), you better ask them because ordinary Muslim like me (or anyone in my family or pool of friends) don't know. We've never read Koran specifically to find justification for violence in it, as you did, apparently. We never needed that. When 911 happened, we were shocked and disgusted, too. And also let me remind you that Mr. Wolfowitz and President Cheney, who've had written they wished something like this happened, are not Muslims.

And to our Hindu friend above, posted as Rakesh Balram, I want to say that, with all due respect to you, you are being dishonest here. Have you ever tried to answer why your Muslim neighbors became so distanced from you? You didn't try to provide us with the answer because you know it's ugly and unpleasant to you to say -- your neighbors suffered from violence and injustice all these years from you, didn't they!?

You probably freaked out, just like your government, when they awarded Oscar to 'Slumdog Millionaire' last year because it exposed the truth about daily life in India, showed us in part how cruelly Muslim women and children can get killed in brutal violence over there. If you can tell us with a clear conscience that it doesn't happen or never happened in your country and that all Muslims are treated as equal members of Indian citizenry, I am ready to apologize for saying you are being dishonest. But, unfortunately, documented facts (of UN and other agencies) aren't on your side.

Violence promotes violence, not religions. We got freaks all over the planet. I remember how Mr. W once famously declared that his "global war on terror [+Iraq]" is mandated by God. Nevertheless, we reelected him for the second term and many people say they would vote for him again. I assume freaking Bin Laden says the same to his followers, who apparently reelect him all the time. Now, sane people can either laugh at or cry over all this.

 

ASIAN7

4:00 AM ET

January 10, 2010

To Fazliddin

I wanted that post to by my last but since you have brought up some issues, I shall try to answer some of your questions.
>>when you twice misspelled my name<<
Sorry for mispelling your name. Well, I got your name right this time, I hope. Spelling isn't my forte, admittedly.

>>Besides, I really, really doubt that you did study Koran yourself, provided that there is no single version of that book in English that can mirror all the complexity of the original one, written in old Arabic, subject to all sorts of discussions and interpretations. <<
Well, whether you believe me or not, I cannot of course 'prove' it to you unless we meet in person and can really show you the Quran and the books I have read. I will leave the doubts to your goodself.
It is a COMPLEX issue, surely. But not BEYOND discussion. This is the same rhetoric that many Muslims give whenever any non-Muslim say some pertinent points about the Quran ..."no single version of that book in English that can mirror all the complexicity of the original one, written in old Arabic". But does that mean that a non-Arabic, non-Muslim person cannot and can never attempt to understand nor interpret it? How can anyone be CONVINCED to accept Islam as his/her credo if he/she cannot really understand or at least understand the Quran, if such a person is not speaking native or archaic Arabic? I do not accept the excuse of inability to understand Arab or complexicity so as to brush aside all claims of non-Muslims about the Quran inasmuch as non-Pali speaking scholars/laymen or non-Hebrew or non-Koine Greek speaking scholars/laymen have interprated the Buddhist scriptures and the Bible.

>>You said you have Muslim friends and that they are peace-loving individuals, and at the same time, you agreed you tend to generalize them as "bad". How come? What kind of logic is that?<<
I will tell you why. Yes, there are many Muslims who are peace-loving. Yet there are many Muslims who are also NOT peace-loving. Plus, even though these peace-loving Muslims friends I have do not get involved in Al Qaeda, I was utterly shocked one day when these same peace-loving Muslims told me America DESERVES 9/11. They said that they do not actively support acts of terrorism but they SYMPHATIZE with it. To me, such statements are tantamount to IMPLICIT support of the terror attacks. Hence, these peace-loving Muslim friends I have are to an extend 'peace-loving' in not actively supporting Al-Qaeda but in NOT castigating terror and a policy of silence against terror are thus, to me IMPLICIT supportors and SYMPHATIZERS. Maybe there are Muslims who are against terror whom I PERSONALLY do not know. But as I have said, I said IN GENERAL, Muslims, even peace-loving one IMPLICITLY supported 9/11 and terror. I said the word 'in general' because I do not want it to mean ALL Muslims because unless I am God, how would I know? You may say we should not generalize. But generalization is part of self-preservation. Let me ask you, if you meet thug-looking people at a certain dark place - isn't it a normal tendency to avoid being in that place? Why? Thug-looking individuals do not mean they are neccessarily thugs and a dark place is not certainly/absolutely dangerous. Why, we have some 'generalization' about such situations because of experience. I don't agree that generalizations are ALL bad and that there is NO truth in generalizations. Generalizations are not TRUE for ALL that/who are generalized but there is some element of truth in those generalization, otherwise why would anyone believe them? My experience with Muslims around me - friends, acquaintances; fundamentalists and those with less knowledge of their own faith - led to those generalizations.And as I have admitted in my last post, I sought to correct the impression that I view ALL Muslims as pro-terrorists but I will not recant the statement that in general (that means majority and not ALL)Muslims are at least not against terrorism IMPLICITLY - my experience with many Muslims seem to confirm that generalization.

>> In contrast to your example, I have friends who go to Church every Sunday and, at the same time, truly hate blacks and asians. This doesn't make me brush everybody in that Church with the same color. <<
As I have explained, a generalization is not INCLUSIVE(i.e. saying ALL) but majority/many. As to those people in that church whom you know, I can generalize that people from that church hate Asians and blacks. Does that mean ALL people in that church? I would not know that, but many/majority does so that generalization is valid.

>>Islam teaches us peace and tolerance, this is what I was taught by my parents.<<
I respect that you have been taught this way by your parents. It is a good thing that your parents taught you about peace and tolerance and that is commendable. If I had thought that you were an unreasonable person, I would not have wasted my time on this post. But my issue is not what your parents taught you ABOUT Islam and that the religion teaches peace and tolerance. My issue is what does Islam REALLY teach about peace, tolerance, jihad and relations with non-Muslims. Inasmuch as you may say I have misrepresented or misundertood the interpretations of the surahs in the Quran, I may also question your interpretation of Islam. Isn't the fear of Muslims as threats for peace, cultures and freedom of worship of non-Muslims etc. the issue at hand? And what is more important than PROVING to your detractors based on surahs in the Quran and the quotations in the Hadith and the history of Islam and Muhammad that Islam is REALLY a religion that preaches tolerance towards non-Muslims and other faiths/way of life?

>>You drew your own conclusions but didn't provide any reasons to support them.<<
I did not provide the reasons because that would entail long discussions and quotations and interpretations thereof of surahs in the Quran. This website is a foreign policy website and to discuss them would be us veering into comparative religion. And there are so many aspects to discuss about - the history of Islam and Muhammad's life in comparison to other religious founders such as Siddharta Gautama, Jesus, Confucius among others. And also the history and development of the writings in the Quran and interpretation of the surahs in context and in relation to the specific pronouncements of those surahs in phases of Muhammad's life. These are complex issues which cannot be wholly discussed in this website. Muslim and non-Muslim scholars and laity have dwelled on these topics but they are not readily available in the internet. If you want to discuss with me about these issues, I suggest we create or go to a blog to discuss them and post that blog in this webpage so that others who have the interest may see the discussion. To quote surahs that, to me I believe , support violence in the Quran without discussion thereof would not do justice to a balanced discussion of that issue in Islam. If you are interested, give me your email and we can discuss this.

 

ASIAN7

4:42 AM ET

January 10, 2010

To Kautilya with less text.....

1.Europe's approach to dealing with its Islamic minorities is flawed and dangerous.
Flawed ?- why do Buddhist / Hindus /Sikhs etc. find tolerance in Europe but Muslims generally claim intolerance in Europe? I think Europe is very tolerant and secular. So I don't agree that Europe is intolerant. Maybe the question is why specifically to Islam does it seem intolerant?
Dangerous - more dangerous is your lack of understanding about Islam.

2.>> Demographics are no clue to a future problem because the whole situation can change in one generation. <<
Yes, demographic projections are NOT prophetic at all times. But some clues are better than being clueless. Looking at trends, how can you say that the possibility of Islamization of Europe is mass hysterics?

3. I do not believe ALL Muslims are hate-filled fascists. But I do believe and generalize that many, are at least sympathetic to terrorism towards non-Muslims. Prejudice is when one is sure ALL of a particular group have some negative trait. I think it is not wrong to generalize - in the sense that MANY/MAJORITY of a particular group has some negative trait. There is TRUTH in generalizations.

4. The fault lies with the Europeans(who are generally non-Muslims) - especially the ruling elites and 'liberals' ; and also the radical Muslim migrants. Of course I am saying this as a generalization(not saying ALL, get it?). "Liberals" who like to deny the existence of the anxieties of the local population towards Muslim migrants and coming up with politically-correct articles like the one by Mr. Vaisse. A lack of knowledge about Islam is another problem and the ones you see on international TV do not give a true discussion about the issue 'does Islam inherently have an inbuilt tendency for violence'. Analogous to seeing Communists or Nazis behave badly but refusing to unbiasly analyze the tenets of communism or Nazism. Radicals amongst the Muslim migrants who worsen the anxieties of non-Muslims.

 

ASIAN7

8:09 AM ET

January 10, 2010

Websites on Criticism on Islam

Fazliddin, Kautilya and others(pro-Islam, anti-Islam, neutral etc.) -
There was a website called Faith Freedom International(FFI) formerly holding articles, experiences and views of agnostics, ex-Muslims and others of varied beliefs but that website is gone - I hope not because of hacking by Muslim radicals.

I found 2 other websites discussing Criticism of Islam - the morality and tenets of Islam and its founder, Muhammad. Interested people who want to view things unbiasly should read these websites AS WELL AS websites by Islam apologists which I am sure our Muslim readers can provide. The websites are:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Ethics,_Moral_Relativism_and_Islam

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Main_Page

I think the wikiislam website has some articles originally from FFI. There are also many websites critical on Islam by Christians, ex-Muslims only, Hindus and Buddhists but I have avoided naming them in this post for 2 reasons:-

1. To ensure no charge of 'bias' is levelled because there are written by others of opposing religious beliefs whereas FFI and wikiislam are written by people of diverse backgrounds and opinions.

2.To make sure that radical Muslims don't have these websites so as to threaten those authors whereas wikiislam is at least well known by all including Muslim radicals.

For those who are interested in some English translations of the Quran to check the verses mentioned in articles, the following website may be helpful:-

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/

That website, Muslims should agree, I believe , would not be 'too biased for translations that might view negatively towards Islam' since it is a website trying to bridge Jews and Muslims right?

Basically to summarize my view :-
There is something wrong with ISLAM(the religion) and that's why SOME MUSLIMS are into terrorism and violence. Focusing on Muslims as a group or as an individual is not enough. What does Islam actually teach? THAT is the question. Does Islam truly preach tolerance and peace or violence or a combination of BOTH? My challenge to Muslims and non-Muslims.

Fazliddin- interested to debate with me about Islam? Give me your email or let's enter a blog.

 

ASIAN7

8:58 AM ET

January 10, 2010

Violence in Islam(the religion)

2 websites regarding the ethics of Muhammad and a comparison of violence in Judeo-Christian THEOLOGY vs violence in Islamic THEOLOGY.

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Muhammad:_The_Example_of_Ethical_Behavior

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Are_Judaism_and_Christianity_as_Violent_as_Islam%3F

 

ASIAN7

10:43 AM ET

January 10, 2010

Even more websites on criticism of Islam

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Myths-of-Islam.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Games-Muslims-Play.htm

 

ASIAN7

12:23 PM ET

January 10, 2010

An interesting website about the "Western" elites' mindset

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=30714

 

FAZLIDDIN

8:14 PM ET

January 10, 2010

To ASIAN7

Sir, judging from the very fact that you've posted six more posts since the one you promised us to be last, and all this maniacal obsessiveness about Islam you've shown us through your posts, I just made a conclusion that you have had already made you mind about Islam. I think there is nobody in this whole world who you will HEAR.

And, excuse me, but I have to work and take care of my family. I have no time to debate with a person, who lacks reasoning, has poor logical thinking, tends to generalize everything and everybody, and is dangerously obsessive about his beliefs.

I think you better find Bin Laden or other from his party and talk to them -- since you all share the same or at least very similar (apocalyptic) views on Islam. I think you will find mutual understanding with them :-)

I my original country, NO ONE thought America "deserved" 911. It's in my new country, America, where people like Mr. Wolfowitz and Mr. Cheney think like that. I don't why your Muslim friends said what they said, but I am inclined to believe that it's not their religion but most likely their ethnic heritage (and historical role of US in their region) that might have provoked them to make such inaccurate comments.

Speaking about religious violence, however, let me remind you that, historically, it is NOT Islam (or Muslims) who brought most of the deaths under the name of single God.

Good luck with your studies :^)

 

FAZLIDDIN

8:20 PM ET

January 10, 2010

and sorry for

and sorry for grammatical mistakes in my post. I am in a hurry.

 

ASIAN7

5:18 AM ET

January 11, 2010

To Fazliddin

Sir,
It's alright that you do not wish to debate. It's OK if you had said that you don't want to debate because you are sure about Islam being the best religion, it's a dogma you accept etc. but to resort to calling me some of the below is downright character-assasination:-

>>all this maniacal obsessiveness about Islam<<
I am NOT 'maniacally obsessive' about Islam. Just think that people should know what is Islam about and NOT only from the side of Muslim apologists and political-correct articles. Those articles are not only for you, they are also for others who want to have unbiased analysis of Islam. Did I not say that they(the unbiased who want to know the truth) should not only hear from 'my' side but also from pro-Islam/Islam apologists' side? For surely I will be thought of as 'biased' regarding Islam- as you said rightly I've made up my mind about Islam. But I've made up my mind based on analysis of evidences - which you render as NOT LOGICAL. Similarly, pro-Islam/Islam apologists are seen as 'biased' for Islam. People who want to know the truth should analyse the claims and arguments of these opposing sides to come with their own conclusions. Isn't that what critical/logical assesment should be all about?

>>I have no time to debate with a person, who lacks reasoning, has poor logical thinking, tends to generalize everything and everybody, and is dangerously obsessive about his beliefs. <<

In what way do I lack reasoning? Did you even see the articles I posted? Poor logical thinking? Where is that lack of logical thinking? I generalize everything and everybody? Did I not say generalization means MAJORITY and not ALL(everything, everybody) and I even wrote posts to admit that some of my earlier posts seem to mean 'all' and so sought to amend these? In what way am I dangerously obsessive about my beliefs? Did I ever say threatening words like your fellow Muslim Khalid Mufti does?
>>If violence is used against the Muslim, he will reply in kind.
You have been warned.<<
Isn't that a threat? Isn't that a more dangerous statement than my so-called 'maniacal obsession with Islam'(which is your allegation of me)?
Your response to him was not that he has a dangerous mindset of threats but , to me a milder answer of:-
>>Yes boys, you are just trying to prove your point, I understand, but your methods deserve a smirk at best.<<
A smirk only? Not a rebuke?

>>I think you better find Bin Laden or other from his party and talk to them -- since you all share the same or at least very similar (apocalyptic) views on Islam. I think you will find mutual understanding with them :-) <<
I know you meant that as a sarcasm. But to answer sarcasm with sarcasm, I don't need to talk to them about their views of Islam because I already know their view of Islam BUT of course am AGAINST THEM AND THEIR VIEW OF ISLAM(which I think is what Islam REALLY IS). It's you who need to talk to them to understand your own religion/faith in its purest doctrines/tenets/history. ;)

>>Speaking about religious violence, however, let me remind you that, historically, it is NOT Islam (or Muslims) who brought most of the deaths under the name of single God. <<
Oh don't worry, I've studied it. I know this fallacy churned out everytime a Muslim wants to 'defend' Islam.

>>I just made a conclusion that you have had already made you mind about Islam.<<
That same statement can be said of you. You have already made up your mind on Islam(or your interpretation of it thereof). I can accept your refusal to debate because you have complete faith in Islam and will not entertain all statements made critical to Islam. I, however, cannot accept you calling me illogical bla bla bla.

>>you've posted six more posts since the one you promised us to be last<<
My grave error for making such a promise. I admit, I am but a mortal and fallible man and no founder of any religion. ;)But 'fallible' and 'sinful' that I am, it does not mean that my views on Islam can immediately be rendered untrue and false without scrutiny and analysis.
I shall now refrain from making a promise I cannot keep - a lesson I've learned indeed. ;)

I think those websites already have extensive links(some I agree, some I don't) on articles/authors critical on Islam for anyone interested to go to.

Good luck to you. Hope you remain the peaceful person you are as you study more about Islam. ;)

 

CARLSONLOGGIE

10:45 AM ET

January 11, 2010

The Force of Reason

The author references Oriana Fallaci's book "The Rage and the Pride", written in a brief period following the 9/11 attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon.

The book he should have (referenced and perhaps intended to reference) is "The Force of Reason", which was more carefully researched and written over a longer period. I lived in Italy for three years, and personally witnessed the creeping Islamization of Italian society, lending credence to Fallaci and causing me do doubt the premise and conclusions of Justin Vaïsse.

 

MPDIV

5:29 PM ET

January 11, 2010

Wow.

This was one of the worst articles I have ever read.

 

CACHORRO QUENTE

5:31 PM ET

January 11, 2010

Oriana Fallaci

There's not such thing as "Italian Islamization".
We have an immigration problem (due to a rapid and relatively recent growth of foreign population) but with a relatively low "burden" of Muslim immigrates compared to subsaharian africans and eastern europeans (it's true that most Albanians are muslims, but of a really secular kind). A recent survey, by the Rodolfo DeBenedetti foundation (I don't find a link in English) discovered that muslim residents, compared to other foreign communities (such as Chinese) are more likely to speak Italian and sending children to school .

Oriana Fallaci lived in New York most of the last years of her life, and "The Force of Reason" as and maybe more than "The rage and a pride" is a bitter, livorous anti-muslim libel with entire chapters dedicated to medieval atrocities of Saracens and Moors, not a rational study on Islamism in Europe.

Vaisse's article is a really good one, with solid facts beside cultural analysis (which is as important in this matter). I also have noticed before the analogy between the Eurabia Myth and view of Europe by American conservatives in the 80's (as I could see it in movies like "Red Dawn", where the States are left alone by European country such as Germany in which the Green Party wins the election [sic!]).
He didn't deny that there were and there'll be problems of coexistency between muslim and not-muslim Europeans, as Theo Van Gogh's story and others, less known (for instance Hina's, a girl from a Pakistani family in Italy that was killed by her own father for her westernized lifestyle), but criticize some apocalyptic opinions which have'nt any solid base.

(I apologize for the awful English, but I'm out of practice and also writing in a hurry)

 

SCOTIAN

12:48 AM ET

January 12, 2010

Do we live in the same world ?

Reading most of those comments, I have a doubt... As a European christian who lived in Canada, Algeria, Egypt, Jordan and had the chance to travel for shorter time in other parts of the world, and, as far as I experienced it, this "Eurabia" thing is nothing more to me than a paranoid fantasy.

I will not say that we leave in a peaceful world, and that there are no major issue in the muslim world today, and that these issues have repercussions in our western societies. But all these invasion fears or calls to crusade are blowing the thing out of proportion. And I'm not talking from the comfort of some "liberal idealism". I have already been waken up by bombs exploding a few km away from me. I've been in places that I probably should have avoided, and often alone. But, never, not a single time ever, have I been personally threatened, neither was my western origin.

The more I know the place I've lived in and the people I've met, the less this "civilization clash" idea makes sense to me.

Honestly, some people should get out of their backyard talks and have a life.

 

FAZLIDDIN

11:51 AM ET

January 12, 2010

To ASIAN7

Sir,
First of all, let me, too, apologize for making conclusions about you that I realize may not be true. But "maniacal obsessiveness" was indeed my first impression from your continued posts and criticism of Islamic religion as such. Again, my apologies.
I certainly am open for discussion about Islam and can politely listen to everything you want to say about it. But, as you've correctly assumed, I have made up my mind about my religion and it is generally good. So, what's the point of debating with each other if we both know each is gonna stay on his own? Those who want to find out about Islam, I am sure can do so themselves.
Even if you will convince two or ten or even one hundred people on the Internet that Islam is "evil", there are still more than a billion people out there who will most likely stay unconvinced. So, what would be your ultimate goal here? What are you trying to achieve? A Crusade like one jerk suggested above?
Isn't it better if we together preach the promotion of mutual understanding, co-existence, development to everybody, especially to those troubled young Muslim folk who turn for violence or blow out themselves even though Koran clearly prohibits such things. After all, Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in a single God. I think it is better if we fight those who preach violence this way. And I still think that it is violence that creates violence. Middle East is a bright example.
I replied with a smirk to the guy posted as "Khalif mufti" because that's the best I can give them. How you want me to rebuke to a guy who says "you've been warned". Jerks are jerks. I don't do any business with them. I despise them.
And another jerk above may disagree, but I feel myself pretty much "white American" and I have no problem integrating my Muslim and White American identities into one moderate identity and; I definitely don't need an opinion from Israel as to who am I and what should I do.

 

ASIAN7

12:28 PM ET

January 12, 2010

To Fazliddin

Sir,

>>Again, my apologies.<<
Apology accepted.

>>So, what would be your ultimate goal here? What are you trying to achieve? A Crusade like one jerk suggested above?<<
Well, you know my views about Islam. I was just trying to explain my views on it, believing that many have misconceptions. Of course, since we are both with opposite beliefs on the issue - we will of course view each other as having misconceptions. DEFINITELY NOT a Crusade. I view the atrocities of Roman Catholicism in the Inquisition and other religious wars(eg Catholics vs Protestants) as evil and acts of terror. In fact, if one examines the doctrines of Christianity, those involved in those atrocities who called themselves Christians are to me, not true Christians because they act opposite to what Christ commanded(eg love your enemies, bless them who curse you etc.).
I have already provided links for websites that are close(but not completely in agreement) whith my views on the issue so those who are interested can go and see for themselves and come up with their own conclusions. No need to reiterate.

>>I think it is better if we fight those who preach violence this way. And I still think that it is violence that creates violence. Middle East is a bright example.<<
Although you and I are much in disgareement about Islam, what you say here is commendable. As you know by now, I have no problem seeing mutual coexistence with atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, agnostics, etc. etc.(although all of these are against each other with regards to doctrines). So-far, non-Muslims and 'moderate' Muslims have against-all-odds co-existed as long as both parties are 'peace-loving'. I don't want to repeat myself like a spoiled tape-recorder but you know I think that the issue-at-hand(for me) is about what Islam really teaches in which we disagree. Let's leave it as that we remain in disagreement about this.
You are correct that violence breeds violence. But violence is only contributary and, to me, never a primary reason for more violence.

>>I definitely don't need an opinion from Israel as to who am I and what should I do.<<
Not sure why the allusion to Israel.

My conclusion is though we disagree(with me making such serious contentions!), I have to say as long as we are peaceble, we can amicably disagree. All the best to you! :)

 

NALLAWHITE

12:42 PM ET

January 12, 2010

No offense, but

@ Allan Green: "American and Europeans and Israelis own nothing to any tomato pickers and janitors. We have our pics, and I'd prefer choosing someone who assimilates into my culture, than someone who's gonna wake me up with a damn Call to Prayer, or clog up the welfare lines!"
I first thought it was an excerpt from the 30's Nazi speech. It's very similar, isn't it? No offense, but when did Israelis become part of white society? 20-30 years ago?

 

FAZLIDDIN

1:27 PM ET

January 12, 2010

To ASIAN7

Thank you for making your position clear. I agree with everything you've said in your last post in regards to our discussion and difference in positions. I am glad that we're able to respectfully disagree with each other.
The thing about Israel wasn't addressed to you, but to another commentator, whose posts with fierce defense of Israel I had read. Just to make it clear -- I am not an antisemit (in fact, I have a Jewish girlfriend) and I am certainly NOT against of a Jewish state. As a former law-student, I believe that every nation deserves its own dedicated land. (Though I think the location for Israel was kinda not the best. But, hey, that's my personal opinion, which is not based on my religious beliefs. If they can come to peace with their neighbors, I will be more than happy for all of them who live over those lands).
God bless you all and, if any orthodox here, Happy Old New Year!