Presidential Debate

Former President Jimmy Carter and his former National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski respond to Walter Russell Mead's "The Carter Syndrome."

MARCH/APRIL 2010

Although I have refrained from responding to gratuitous and incorrect analyses of my foreign policy, I feel compelled to comment on Walter Russell Mead's cover story ("The Carter Syndrome," January/February 2010), which the editors apparently accepted without checking the author's facts or giving me a chance to comment. I won't criticize or correct his cute and erroneous oversimplistic distortions of presidential biographies and history except when he refers specifically to me. I resent Mead's use of such phrases as "in the worst scenario, turn him [Obama] into a new Jimmy Carter," "weakness and indecision," and "incoherence and reversals" to describe my service. An especially aggravating error is his claiming, "by the end of his tenure he was supporting the resistance to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, increasing the defense budget, and laying the groundwork for an expanded U.S. presence in the Middle East." None of these were late decisions based on a tardy realization of my earlier errors and misjudgments.

Except for obviously unpredictable developments like the fall of the shah, Iraq's invasion of Iran, and the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, all the actions described below were planned and announced even before I took the oath of office. These included energetic moves regarding China, the Middle East, Panama, nuclear arms control, defense budgets, Rhodesia, and human rights.

To ensure clear and continued top-down direction of U.S. foreign policy, I regularly reviewed a comprehensive agenda of international issues with my key advisors. These included the vice president, the secretaries of defense and state, the national security advisor, the chief of staff, and often the director of intelligence services. My decisions were recorded by National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski and quickly shared with others, and when necessary, he convened a meeting of the two secretaries during the following week to ensure compliance with my directives.

It should be remembered that I served as president during the latter years of the Cold War, when mutual assured destruction from a nuclear exchange was an overriding factor in our dealings with the Soviet Union. To avoid a potentially catastrophic military confrontation, we engaged with the Soviets, from a position of strength, in negotiating SALT II in order to ensure constraints and shared reductions in our arsenals.

Related

Read "The Carter Syndrome" by Walter Russell Mead

I also commissioned comprehensive reviews of comparative U.S. and Soviet military and nonmilitary capabilities (undertaken by Brzezinski and Professor Samuel Huntington). On this basis, I decided to modernize our deterrent capabilities, knowing that the United States had great advantages over the Soviet Union in nonmilitary competition. Accordingly, I decided to exploit these Soviet vulnerabilities, peacefully and quietly. One by one, we reached out to nonaligned nations, with the help of Ambassador to the United Nations Andrew Young and others, promoting the attractive appeal of peace, freedom, democracy, and human rights. In these places, where U.S. leaders of previous administrations had not been welcome, we established close and binding friendships, thereby weakening the Soviets.

Often over the objection of our European allies, we publicly and privately condemned the Soviet leaders' mistreatment of their own citizens, especially Jews and human rights activists. This aggressive policy bore rich dividends, as internal challenges to the regime were greatly strengthened and the annual out-migration of Russian Jews increased from a few dozen to more than 5,000. We actively supported the Solidarity movement in Poland, and reacted firmly and also mobilized the support of key allies in response to the threat of Soviet military intervention.

Following 30 years of diplomatic relations with Taiwan as "the One China," I negotiated persistently with Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping for more than a year and was successful in reaching agreement in December 1978. This led to full relations with the People's Republic of China the following month -- while still continuing proper treatment of Taiwan. This was a strategic turning point in U.S.-China relations that my predecessors had not been willing or able to consummate. As China's global influence increased, the Soviet Union's was diminished. This was, perhaps, the most serious challenge to the global status of the Soviet Union. In addition, Moscow's enormous influence with Arab leaders in the Middle East was severely attenuated by our successful peace efforts. Defense Secretary Robert Gates, in his writings, has given this overall policy of challenging the Soviet Union more public credit than have I for its ultimate demise.

There was no pressure on me to launch a peace initiative in the Middle East, but I did so from my first days in office. I realized that there had been four wars against Israel during the preceding quarter-century, with Egypt being the only Arab force that was strong enough to be a real threat. At Camp David and during the following weeks, we negotiated a resolution to the Palestinian issue and a treaty of peace early in 1979 between Egypt and Israel. Although written commitments to the Palestinians have not been honored, not a word of the peace treaty has been broken. Tragically, there has been little if any real progress since that time.

As part of our global emphasis on human rights, a high priority for me was the end of the apartheid regimes in Africa. We began in Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, assisted by Britain and other European allies and by President Julius Nyerere of Tanzania, President Kenneth Kaunda of Zambia, and other black African leaders. This effort was condoned, after much persuasion, even by apartheid South Africa. We persisted in demanding the end of their own oppressive regime, calling for "one man, one vote," which may have had a beneficial impact in later years.

Perhaps the most important and certainly the most difficult political challenge for me was the negotiation and then Senate ratification of the Panama Canal treaties. This extremely unpopular but requisite task had been promised since the time of President Lyndon Johnson but delayed because of the obvious negative political consequences. For instance, among the 20 brave men who faced re-election in 1978 after supporting this action, only seven returned to the Senate. This decision strengthened greatly our nation's ties with the people of Latin America and many others within the Non-Aligned Movement who had former ties with the Soviet Union.

Our support of human rights and the people who espoused them had a far-reaching beneficial effect in many nations. Most of the countries in South America, for instance, were governed by personal despots or military juntas when I took office. We abandoned the long-standing U.S. policy of supporting and protecting these friendly dictators in the face of human rights and indigenous movements, and within four years a large number of them had initiated procedures or pledged to permit democratic elections, prodded by us and the heroes brave enough to challenge the oppressive regimes. Soon, all of them became democracies.

NATO was strengthened, U.S. military budgets steadily increased (despite my spending levels being somewhat reduced by Congress), and many technical innovations were introduced under Defense Secretary Harold Brown, a noted physicist and former president of the California Institute of Technology. This included precision bombs, seminal improvements in ground- and air-launched cruise missiles, and development of stealth aircraft.

We had no hesitation in providing weapons to the Afghan resistance after the Soviet invasion in December 1979, and I made it clear in my speech to Congress a month later that I condemned this action and had informed the Soviets that any further aggression would be construed as a direct threat to our nation's security and I would respond accordingly, not necessarily limiting ourselves to the use of conventional weapons.

Our policy in Iran was to make it possible for the shah to retain his leadership by urging him to adopt political reforms while preventing fanatical extremists from seizing power, but ultimately that could only be accomplished by the Iranians themselves. The unwarranted capture and holding of U.S. diplomats by militants was the major cause of my defeat for re-election, but my decision to refrain from military action -- unless they harmed a hostage -- proved to be well-advised. I could have ordered massive destruction in Iran with our mighty military power, but this would have resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent Iranians, and it is certain that our hostages would have been assassinated.

Instead, we persisted with patience, exhausting every possible mediation avenue that might have been helpful. Finally, with the assistance of the Algerians and others, I negotiated around the clock for the last three days I was in office, while President-elect Ronald Reagan and his advisors chose not to be involved or even informed about progress. The hostages were on a plane and waiting for takeoff several hours before the midday inauguration, and they were finally permitted to depart immediately after I was no longer in office -- all of them safe and free.

Although it is true that we did not become involved in military combat during my presidency, I do not consider this a sign of weakness or reason for apology. While maintaining the peace, for ourselves and many others, we greatly expanded our global influence and also protected the security, strength, ideals, and integrity of the United States.

—Jimmy Carter
39th President of the United States
Atlanta, Ga.

 

Walter Russell Mead's appraisal of President Barack Obama's foreign policy was gratuitously titled "The Carter Syndrome" even though it contained no analysis of President Jimmy Carter's foreign policy. Nonetheless, its message was that in "the worst scenario" Obama could turn out to be like Carter, whose presidency Mead associates with "weakness and indecision."

Since Mead provides no examples, here are a few geopolitical accomplishments of Carter's four years:

  • He reconnected the United States with the quest for human rights in both the communist states and those under right-wing dictatorships, in sharp contrast to his predecessor.
  • Confronting an initially hostile Congress, he pushed through the treaties that resolved the Panama Canal issue, which was threatening to poison U.S. relations with Latin America.
  • He tackled the Middle Eastern conundrum, personally achieving the first peace treaty ever between Israel and an Arab neighbor.
  • He not only managed to normalize relations with China, but in the process fashioned a quiet partnership against the Soviet Union.
  • He actively supported the Solidarity movement in Poland and secretly assisted the national aspirations of the non-Russian peoples of the Soviet Union.
  • He promoted the modernization of U.S. strategic forces and approved the deployment of the MX missile and the development of the Rapid Deployment Force.
  • He initiated a command and a support structure for a U.S. military capability in the Persian Gulf.
  • Through prolonged but determined negotiations, he reached the SALT II agreement with the Soviet Union (subsequently not submitted for congressional ratification because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan).
  • Following that invasion, under his leadership the United States took the initiative in organizing a cooperative effort of a number of leading European, Middle Eastern, and East Asian states in providing military aid to the Afghan resistance, and that resistance contributed to the internal crisis that eventually broke up the Soviet Union.

His major geopolitical setback, in my view, was in Iran, but ultimately Iran was not America's alone to save. If after four years -- as I truly hope -- Obama has to his credit contemporary equivalents for every one of the above, Mead will be justified in bestowing on him the praise for firmness and decisiveness which he so casually denies to Carter.

—Zbigniew Brzezinski
Counselor and Trustee
Center for Strategic and International Studies
National Security Advisor to President Carter
Washington, D.C.

 

Walter Russell Mead replies:

It's an honor that President Jimmy Carter chose to respond to my article with an impassioned and eloquent defense of his presidential stewardship. I cast my first presidential ballot for Carter's re-election in 1980 and continue to regard him with great respect. I am also a great admirer of Zbigniew Brzezinski; reviewing one of his recent books, I wrote that "no statesman of his generation is in his league" when it comes to the study of U.S. foreign policy against the background of the deeper movements of world history.

That said, my recent Foreign Policy article was not really about Carter or his administration. It was about the current U.S. president and the intellectual, cultural, and political challenges he faces, so the treatment of past presidents was necessarily less detailed and nuanced. In that context, I referred to some of the difficulties that Carter encountered in managing the U.S. relationship with the Soviet Union. I have attended meetings at which high-ranking officials from both the Soviet Union and the Carter administration have clearly stated that Carter's support for human rights was seen from the Soviet side as a repudiation of détente and a return to Cold War hostility -- and that, especially in the beginning, Carter did not fully grasp the tension between his two goals of détente with the Soviets and the promotion of human rights. Obama faces, potentially, a similar tradeoff between the promotion of human rights and the development of stable relations with countries such as China and Iran; he is likely to find it as difficult to manage the tension between those goals as Carter once did.

Someday I hope to write a more systematically historical account of U.S. foreign policy than the essentially thematic treatment I gave it in Special Providence. When I do, I will endeavor to do full justice to Carter, a man who is justifiably unhappy that his presidency's complex story is so rarely treated with the respect and sympathy that it deserves.

 

SCOTTGOOSE

12:32 AM ET

February 22, 2010

Cough, anti-Semite, cough, damage control

I'll leave those far more historically steeped than I to critique his rebuttal to W.R. Mead, whose become something of a hero of mine. I also have an exam in the morning, so I'll only ask one question:

If you were Jimmy Carter, wouldn't you rehash your accomplishments while concomitantly omitting your failures if a Yale Prof and Henry A. Kissinger Scholar of CoFR ripped you a new asshole?

I know charges of anti-Semitism is en-vogue nowadays for any critic of Israel, but no damage control Carter does retroactively will convince the millions of people who are convinced that he, at the very least, is very pro-Palestinian and has made borderline anti-Semitic accusations countless times.

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

7:39 AM ET

February 22, 2010

Arguing X is fatuous; I will now argue X

"I know charges of anti-Semitism is en-vogue nowadays for any critic of Israel, but no damage control Carter does retroactively will convince the millions of people who are convinced that he, at the very least, is very pro-Palestinian and has made borderline anti-Semitic accusations countless times."

You can't be serious. You acknowledge that the charge of antisemitism is used as a cudgel against anyone critical of Israel, and then you proceed to call Carter an anti-Semite for criticizing Israel. Sorry, but unless you can give an example of antisemitism (advocating better treatment of millions of Palestinians who were just plain-old born into something beyond their control does not count as antisemitism), you are making the same poor argument you acknowledge to be "en-vogue".

I have no interest in defending the ridiculous positions of the political parties/militants in Palestine. However, this idea that Israel--a state that receives much largess from the US--cannot be subjected to criticism because the Jews have a history of being persecuted is beyond ridiculous, it's pernicious. It allows radical Jews (and let's be honest, as is the case with the Palestinians, Israel has its nut-jobs) to say "we'll set up settlements wherever we please, because our book says we can, and if you say anything that goes against our wishes you are Hitler".

Sorry, but it's too stupid for me to avoid responding to.

 

FSILBER

8:02 AM ET

February 22, 2010

"However, this idea that

"However, this idea that Israel ...-cannot be subjected to criticism because the Jews have a history of being persecuted is beyond ridiculous, it's pernicious."

That's why no one, including the Jewish critics of Jimmy Carter, makes such an argument. Jimmy Carter is condemned not for criticizing Israel, but for _unfairly_ and _maliciously_ criticizing Israel. Reasonable criticisms would have been accepted.

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

8:31 AM ET

February 22, 2010

Such as?

When you say "unfairly_ and _maliciously_ criticizing Israel" what do you mean?

What has he said exactly? Why was it unfair?

 

SCOTTGOOSE

5:14 PM ET

February 22, 2010

BFDMIDWILSHIRE -you were just being lazy, evidence is everywhere

In response to your question: What has Jimmy Carter done that makes him an anti-Semite?

I concede that my last sentence was poorly constructed and rushed for the sake of brevity, as I had a huge test this morning I was concomitantly cramming for. What I meant to say is that after years of playing soft-ball in regards to Palestinian terrorism, while constantly making insidious and unsubstantiated charges that Israel is an "apartheid state" guilty of myriad atrocities, is evidence enough of at the minimum bias against Israel. What makes my pointed allegation somewhat legitimate is the fact his vitriol towards Israel (and seemingly Jew's in general, despite his objections to the contrary) is compounded by the disproportionate sums relative to the number of allegations made against Palestinians. Sheer support for the Palestinian cause is prerogative and he has the right to feel however he wants. However, based on his historically anti-Israel and borderline anti-Semitic comments, it is not illogical to at least accuse former-President Carter of potentially being anti-Semitic. The same goes for his former NSA advisor and scholar Zbig.

However, I take little pride in belittling a former President (however poor of a job he did) for his beliefs. Fact is, if he is actually anti-Semitic -- which I am only alleging based on his past remarks -- it is his right. What I take offense to is that the imprimatur of being a former President gives him the credibility to espouse very negative country that I hold dear, thus rendering them more credibility than they deserve.

If you want evidence of his past anti-Semitic-like behavior, just look at the book titles of his books, and watch a couple of speeches via youtube or something like that. I am not just making completed capricious and arbitrary accusations against a former President of the United States.

**** THE SMOKING GUN
He recently offered an "al het" -- which means asking for forgiveness -- to the Jewish people, in general. In doing so, he admits that he can understand why people have perceived him as harboring much of the resent against the Jews that I just stated. The link is:

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/12/21/1009832/carter-offers-jewish-community-al-het

However, there are many others. You were either lazy or disingenuous if you are actually going to ask such a question. Do your research.

 

ITGURU42

5:24 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Start with the old

Start with the old "apartheid" libel. Look at his ridiculous, anti-semitic book. http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/carter-anti-semitic/

Come observe his tacit approval of countless blood-libel attacks over the years, including the bizarre claims that the Israeli army "harvests" organs from dead Palestinians (patently ridiculous but that never stops the nutballs).

Carter ignores the fact that the pseudo-religion of Islam (more political than religion, the same as the cult of $cientology) is the "official religion" of more than 27 nations, yet he believes the recognition of Israel as a Jewish homeland is "an obstacle to peace." This despite the fact that Judaism, Christianity, and anything else not Muslim is banned from those nations, while Israel recognizes freedom of religion for its citizens and legal residents.

Sounds plenty anti-semitic to me.

 

VMCARRERA

6:47 PM ET

February 22, 2010

anti-Semite

But aren't the Palestinians Semites?

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

8:41 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Hope your test went well, your case against Carter gets a D

So far as I can tell, your case against Carter has 5 major components:

1. Carter spent "years of playing soft-ball in regards to Palestinian terrorism". This charge is too vague to refute. But that's not really my job. If you're claiming that Carter was soft on the PLO, tell me what he did that say, Regan, would have done differently. I am not a Carter booster by any stretch, and I would certainly be interested to hear your arguments as to why the way in which he dealt with the PLO was particularity inept, but don't expect me to make them for you.

2. As for the charge that Carter is "constantly making insidious and unsubstantiated charges that Israel is...guilty of myriad atrocities", I think there is plenty of substantiation available. You may think that bombing Lebanon's infrastructure and civilians in 2006 was totally justified, but I think that it was out of proportion to the event that set the campaign in motion (an attack on a pair of Israeli military vehicles). No doubt about it, the Israeli's have to deal with a bunch of fanatics who will do anything they can to win a victory. You can bet Hezbollah will hide their rockets in buildings filled with civilians and fire rockets into Israeli towns until the day a peace is reached (and at this point, I'm not so sure that day will come). But the more powerful force does have a moral obligation to obtain from causing civilian causalities, and Israel has not always done so--the 2006 campaign is a prime example.

I should perhaps mention that I served in Iraq (USMC), and so I have an understanding of some of the tactics used by groups like Hezbollah. But if a platoon of Marines comes gets fired on from a building that contains civilians, they cannot--and don't--just call in airstrikes. They, due to the United States' military superiority, have to risk being killed in order to ensure minimum damage to the civilian population. Despite the efforts ensure minimum casualties, sometimes atrocities do happen--war is messy. However, in the conduct of the incursion into Lebanon, Israel did exercise such restraint. The guilt of the Palestinian militants in no way absolves Israel of its responsibility.

3. As for the "Carter called Israel an "apartheid state" business, see my reply to ITGURU42.

4. You criticize Carter for his "his historically anti-Israel and borderline anti-Semitic comments". I'm sorry, again, I have no idea what you are talking about. If you're referring to the Carter describing the state as an apartheid state, I'll have to refer you back to my reply to ITGURU. Otherwise, you should really avoid making a statement and then telling me to go and find support for your statement.

5. Finally, your "smoking gun". He apologized to Jewish people by way of a traditional Jewish apology (an "al het"). If he was such an antisemite, why on earth would he go through the trouble of issuing an "al het"? If you truly hated Jews, would you apologize for offending them? Would you expect an avowed hate monger to apologize for his beliefs? Would a Klansman who's book was poorly received by the Congressional Black Caucus show up to make a formal apology? Perhaps you think Carter only apologized because he received a negative reaction and he can't stand the thought of bad press. But why would he care about bad press? He's never going to run for anything again, and his legacy couldn't be much worse.

In closing, I think you are playing the same game as ITGURU42. That is to say, I think that you are equating criticism of Israel with antisemitism in an effort to silence said criticism. However, I would like to thank you for being less hysterical than he is.

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

8:51 PM ET

February 22, 2010

My Mistake

Correction in caps:

"However, in the conduct of the incursion into Lebanon, Israel did NOT exercise such restraint. The guilt of the Palestinian militants in no way absolves Israel of its responsibility."

 

DAVIDGREENFUTUREDOC

11:18 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Israeli TV Reported that Israel Harvested Organs from Dead Palis

The story of the Israeli army and medical fields' conspiring to harvest Palestinian organs was proven earlier late last year by Israeli TV.

Check it out:

CBS News:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/20/ap/middleeast/main6001606.shtml

Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

B--shire is right: s/he wins.

 

ITGURU42

11:44 AM ET

February 23, 2010

DavidGreenFutureDoctor See

DavidGreenFutureDoctor

See below, you dishonorable, racist, bigoted, anti-semitic pile of rectal rejections.

 

JOHNNYCANUCK72

2:47 PM ET

February 23, 2010

I hope you did better on your test

Dear Scott: I hope you did better on your test than you've done here. Even after admitting you probably went too far in accusing President Carter of being an anti-semite, your second post repeats the same logical leaps as the first- i.e. that Carter's apparent grudge against Israel is proof that he "seemingly" feels the same way against Jews.

You don't like the title of President Carter's book? Well, if you'd bothered to read his books you'd learn that he is the farthest thing from an anti-semite. He was after all the only U.S. president to negotiate a lasting peace accord between Israel and an Arab country. It's true he now has very powerful criticisms of the Israeli state. But they're entirely legitimate. Israel continues to build settlements on land that has never been accepted as Israeli territory, has built security walls that cut through Palestinian territory, and cut Palestinians off from basic resources and forced them to spend hours to travel within their own territory. I can see why you'd want to brand as anti-semitic anyone who brings those inconvenient truths to light or who points to the obvious similarities between the Israeli regime and another oppressive regime. You can call the messenger whatever you want, but it doesn't change the facts.

 

BURNINGCHROME

1:09 AM ET

February 22, 2010

Please, you were the worst president ever! even exceding GWB.

Is there no end to your Hubris?

Claiming you were only a victim of circumstances is disgusting and pathetic. It is because of you Jimmy Carter that American voters turned on the Democrats the way they did in 1980 and the following years resulting in the loss not just of your office but both houses of congress and a number of governorships in key states.

Because of you the Republicans even after all the outrages of Watergate were able to not only return from the cold but recaptured so much of the US electorate.

The US is in a morass of wars and conflict because of the decisions you directly made and are solely responsible for. Yes Afghanistan was Brzezinski depraved idea but you were the president and signed off the policies.

The fall of the Shah was not unpredictable. You withdrew US support for him and all you cared about was that his successors would not fall into the Soviet orbit. You completely failed to comprehend the implications of the return to power by the Clergy even though they made very clear their goals and agenda.

The subsequent war with Iraq was all to predictable given the history of both the region and more particular the Iraq (Arab) Iran rivalries.

You purposefully destabilised Afghanistan to draw the Soviets into a quagmire with no regard for the Afghan people and all the misery that ensued.

You chose to tie the US to Pakistan and Zia's increasing fundamentalism all the while spouting off about Human Rights.

Now the US is bogged down in 2 wars in Iraq and Afghanistan a covert war in Pakistan and again confronting Iran. All as a direct result of the choices you made.

Stop taking so much credit for the Israel Egypt Peace agreement. It happened because both Egypt and Israel wanted it to. It unravelled because you lied to Menachem Begin for short term gain not because Israel didn't honour their obligations. Menachem begin never trusted you after that and you have ever since tried to punish Israel. Then you are surprised when no Jews will host you so you can apologise to the Jews, leaving you to take out an ad that everybody understood to be nothing more than a cold political calculation.

Please Jimmy Carter just go away, leave America, the Jews, Israel and the world alone.

 

DEFANNIN

5:18 AM ET

February 22, 2010

History Remembered.

President Carter is an honest man and an honest broker. He is probably the best person to hold the office in my lifetime, 62 years.

Unfortunately, even if every thing he says were to be judged in his favor on a factual basis. That is not how he is remembered. There is a large difference between the facts of history and how those living thru that history remembers. Jimmy Carter is remembered as ineffectual. That may change when disinterested historians review his time. But he will not be appreciated in his lifetime.

 

BURNINGCHROME

1:11 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Do you have alzheimers?

Facts:

1) double digit inflation and double digit unemployment during Carter's brief tenure

2) withdrew US support for the Shah of Iran, then an anchor of western Stability, leaving a vacuum filled by the current regime internally... final chapter still unwritten. Externally by Saddam Hussein. This in turn drawing the US into 2 wars... final chapter still unwritten.

3) Purposefully destabilised Afghanistan and recruited Pakistani and Saudi involvement. Afghanistan was previously as was the history independent of Pakistan in opposition to the Islamic regime and allied more with India a democracy. Creating a Muslim army, the Mujahideen, leading to 9/11 and another US fought war...final chapter still unwritten.

4) wreaked havoc with the democratic party causing a large scale exodus from the democratic party - the Reagan Democrats
1980 saw the republicans not only retake the presidency but in quick succession both houses of congress numerous state legislatures and governorships that has taken 30 years to repair....

5) Surrendered to Iran in the Algiers agreement...final chapter still unwritten.

6) Iran a previously peaceful country setting up shop in Lebanon. Support for Hizbollah Terrorists leading to the killing 241 American servicemen...final chapter still unwritten.

 

MIKE C

7:06 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Oh Defannin

So what are you waiting for? Those of us who where alive during Jimmy Carters time in office to die off hoping history can rewrite the facts? Your little statement about Carter is great for those to young to know any better but you see Mr Defannin I lived thru his time in the white house. I remember how it felt to be a American under him. Then I remember how I felt under mr Reagan. It was like night and day. I am not a member of any party and at the time didn't know the difference but I know this. You are dead wrong! Mr Carter was the worsest president in my lifetime! People like you can try to rewrite it but I know better because I was there!

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

1:04 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Nixon and Reagan

Nixon the burglar and Reagan the drug dealer and gun runner are easily the worst presidents America has ever had. Reagan got the United States convicted for terrorism. Mr. Carter is an intelligent, honorable, decent man and was a great president. These attacks are coming from Israelis and quasi-Israelis.

 

FREETRADER

7:46 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Defannin

Jimmy Carter has indeed been 'appreciated' in his lifetime. All too well.

 

NSC LONDON

6:00 AM ET

February 22, 2010

Scott Goose is cracking me up!

Totally agreed with your assessment in the first comment. Though I don't go as far as to accuse JC of anti-Semitism, when it comes to Carter I am at a loss to explain what appears to be an unflinching hostility towards Israel combined with a persistent acceptance of all things Palestinian. Am I oversimplifying the situation by equating Carter's perspective with the Muslim/Extreme Left alliance? If anyone in the pro-Carter camp would care to explain what appears to be a very skewed rationale on this issue I would be greatly appreciative.

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

8:27 AM ET

February 22, 2010

I'm not sure it's oversimplifying

"Am I oversimplifying the situation by equating Carter's perspective with the Muslim/Extreme Left alliance?"

I think Carter views the Palestinian people as powerless (or at least weak), and like many on the Left, he identifies with the underdogs.

I know it's hard for Americans to empathize with the Palestinians (they're Muslim, they dress differently, and every time we see them on TV they're lighting something on fire--usually the American flag). For that reason, Carter's calling attention to the plight of the Palestinian people strikes a lot of Americans as rooting for the bad guys.

As I alluded to in my response to Scott Goose, I have no skin in this game. I'm not a Jew, nor am I a Muslim. But I do see the whole conflict as a conflict over resources (land), fought by two groups who proclaim ownership of said resources on the basis of their respective religions (identity politics the Right can get behind). The major difference is that Israel has tanks and helicopters and they fight in uniforms (we, Americans, can identify with that), and the Palestinians throw rocks at said tanks and send suicide bombers into nightclubs (that strikes us as a bit Al-Queda-ish).

In addition to better equipment, the Jews have way better PR. For example, a Palestinian talking point: "death to America, death to Israel". An Israeli talking point: "Israel has a right to exist". The cartoon version of the American response: "well, I'm certainly not one for death to America, so those Palestinian guys are out. As for the other folks, I can't see myself denying anybody a right to exist, so I guess I'm on their side." (Never mind the ridiculously loaded nature of the "right-to-exist" line, most people are pretty susceptible to specious arguments if they are worded correctly.)

So, no, I don't think Carter is part of any "extreme"-Left, pro-Muslim conspiracy. I think he just sees himself as the defender of the weak, which is really more old-Left than extreme-Left. You can think he is wrong for his advocacy--you can even think that the Palestinians are getting what they deserve, wrong book and all--but I don't think you can hammer Carter for being part of some kind of antisemitic cabal.

 

MGILMOUR8

2:43 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Palestinians are very much the same as American Indians

In his criticism of Israel, Carter has taken the risk to speak out about something very few American public figures, political or otherwise, would dare to do. Whatever you may think of Carter's accomplishments while President, it is hard to deny that he is very qualified to speak to the issue of Israel and the Middle East. I am an American centrist... not a Democrat, nor Jewish or Islamic, but am well educated on the history and politics of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Carter has spoken out against Israel's policies in the Occupied Territories because they are oppressive, racist, and inhumane. They represent apartheid-like tactics which have been substantiated by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the U.N. All of these institutions and most of the governments of Europe are now considered by Israel and American Jewry to be biased against Israel because of such criticism. Crying bias and making accusations of being anti-semitic is the formulaic, now hollow, response Israel and Washington have been using for years.

It makes sense Carter would speak out against this inhumane treatment because he has always done so, whether it was in China, the Soviet Union, or other areas of the Middle East, regardless of the political consequences. But in the case of Israel it is of particular importance and unique because, unlike other governments guilty of systematic human rights violations, Israel owes its very existence to the United States (and ironically to the U.N., which Israel now discredits because of its condemnations towards its apartheid like tactics).

Beyond being the first country to vote in favor of Israel's recognition as a State by the U.N., the U.S. has contributed more total funds (direct aide, loans without requirement to be repaid, tax deductible gifts from U.S. citizens, direct and indirect Military aide), than it has to any other country, by far (over $100 Bil.), since the U.S. was created. Therefore we should be holding Israel to a standard similar to what we would hold ourselves to.

And there lies the greatest irony. As stated, this conflict is over land. And this land has been inhabited by the indigenous Palestinian people for all recorded history, even according to the Jewish Old Testament. The principally Ashkenazi Jews of Israel are East European colonists in Palestine, Palestine that is now Israel because of a decree of the U.N. But according to the same U.N. the West Bank is not Israeli territory and Israel is, according to international law, illegally occupying this land not to mention subjecting its citizens to apartheid treatment in an effort to force them to flee the land so that Israel can further its settlements and eventual annexation.

The point to my response here is that the Palestinians are in every way analogous to the American Indians. As modern Americans, and let's say it... modern white Americans, like myself, we almost universally recognize that our forefathers mistreated, abused, exploited, and depraved the indigenous American Indians. Today we provide them numerous forms of reparations in an effort to make right our injustices. So why are we enabling and supporting one of our closest allies, Israel, to do the same injustices today?

How could Carter not stand up and voice this issue? Unfortunately the majority of other American public figures would not dare to do so because they fear receiving the same Edgar Hoover-like treatment Carter has received in the past two years.

To Jimmy Carter, I don't agree with many of your socialistic stances on economic policy, but I am proud to have had a man like you, truly brave with integrity, as our President.

 

ITGURU42

5:01 PM ET

February 22, 2010

"I know it's hard for

"I know it's hard for Americans to empathize with the Palestinians (they're Muslim, they dress differently, and every time we see them on TV they're lighting something on fire--usually the American flag). "

Come again?

It was the Arab nations who stuffed Palestinians into "refugee camps" - on land designated for the Palestinian state no less, after the Arab states had swallowed it up - in 1948.

It was the Arab nations who passed laws preventing Palestinians from gaining citizenship in other Arab nations on the theory of "diluting the Palestinian cause."

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. " - Zahir Muhsein, PLO Executive Committee Member, 1977.

I empathize with the Palestinians. They are an uneducated, brainwashed, mass who have been brutalized and mistreated by the same people who feed them the same old lies about "ethnic brotherhood" and teach them to hate the "common enemy." But I will not, ever, fall into the trap that Carter and so many dolts from the Left fall into and think that because the Arabs have kept the "poor Palestinians" locked up as a propaganda point and source of suicidal crazies with which to launch blatant attacks bent on genocide and in violation of ALL tenets of the Geneva Conventions, that somehow the "Evil Joos" are to blame.

 

NSC LONDON

10:56 AM ET

February 22, 2010

We Yanks may be a bit thick, but not THAT thick!

Thank you for your reply, I’m formulating an understanding of the Carter situation and appreciate the thoughts of the FP forum, which usually seems to be occupied by surprisingly sophisticated thinkers. In the interests of disclosure, I’m not a Jew or a Muslim (or anything else but a pious Capitalist) and my personal stance on this issue is that Israel represents a values system that is compatible with my civilisation, Islam does not, by any stretch. But, Goldstone Report nonsense aside, I am inclined to believe Israel has crossed the line on more than one occasion and may be deserving of much of the censure it receives. Regardless how vile the enemy may be it is imperative to conduct conflict within the parameters of the Geneva Convention. Furthermore, there are undoubtedly many wonderful Palestinians with whom we have more in common than in difference, though they are represented by a religion and a government (or psuedo-government) that harms their interests and image.

I have to push back a bit on your statement that “I know it's hard for Americans to empathize with the Palestinians (they're Muslim, they dress differently, and every time we see them on TV they're lighting something on fire--usually the American flag). For that reason, Carter's calling attention to the plight of the Palestinian people strikes a lot of Americans as rooting for the bad guys.” I have to say this feels a bit like the oft heard assumption that yanks are unable to see beyond the superficiality of media messages that they receive about Palestine, which is I think is unfair. To your point that Palestinians “dress differently,” this is true, and it may appear to be a superficial difference but I believe most Americans respond to this different way of dressing negatively because it does represent for many the oppression of women found in Islam. Aside from the much reviled burka, even the hijab signifies male ownership of women and many Americans (or westerners in general) find this reprehensible.

So, I guess what I’m trying to say is that there is a lot more to the fault line between “us” and “them” than the superficial differences that make “them” seem different – there are genuine, irreconcilable civilisational differences at stake having nothing to do with who is or is not the proverbial underdog.

And perhaps that’s what makes the Carter issue so galling for some (ok, maybe just for me?) – he seems extremely motivated to undermine his own country based upon some bleeding-heart “the underdog is always right” woolly-headed hippie nonsense, rather than being motivated by an intellectual evaluation the individual merits of the two conflicting parties. I would prefer world leaders to make coldly rational decisions and try to avoid the type of sentimental saviour complex that appears to grip President Carter.

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

2:47 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Not thick, but superficial

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is, for most Americans, an issue that they seem content to have a pretty superficial knowledge of--though not as simple as your reading of my previous post would have it.

When I made the statement about the American public's opinion being colored by the Palestinian dress, I did not mean that Americans viewed Palestinians as the less sympathetic group because their dress was less Western than that of the Israelis. I wasn't saying that Americans hold different clothing to be bad prima facie. I think if the conflict were between a group of smartly-dressed Chinese with a tendency toward violent oppression (we'll call them the CCP) and a group of non-violent Buddhists whose garb bore little resemblance to our own (Tibetans, for the sake of argument), there is no reason to believe that the average American would not take the side of the more strangely dressed bunch. I think that most Americans make exactly the calculation that you have made: in the case of Arab Muslims, that strange dress indicates an adherence to a set of values and beliefs utterly at odds with our own. Meanwhile, Israeli culture is much more palatable--provided you're content to regard the Orthodox set in the same way many people regard the Amish: as a benign curiosity.

But our willingness to take Israel's side in the conflict based on the perception--rightly held, provided you exclude the Zionist wing-nuts--that Israeli/Jewish culture is more compatible with Western values results in an incredibly one-sided approach to the conflict. We view Israel as an ally, and--particularly under Bush--pretty near anything they wanted to do in response to a flare-up in Gaza or Lebanon was justified because "Israel has a right to defend itself" (again with the loaded language).

Surely Israel has a right to defend itself, but what about the 10 year-old Palestinian playing soccer in the streets when the Israeli bombardment starts? Well, that where Carter comes in I suppose.

The bottom line is, regardless of what Avigdor Lieberman thinks, at some point the Israelis are going to have to cede some ground--either that or exterminate the Palestinians outright, but that might be detrimental to their moral standing, and probably a bit too ironic. It would be nice if more American politicians were willing to lean on them a bit in pursuit of a two-state solution, but the charge of antisemitism is always looming, and so leaning is rare.

I dare say that Carter would be much less outspoken were his aspirations for elected office not long behind him, but since they are, he says what he wants--even if it comes of as hippy idealism at times. But I actually think his outspokenness serves a useful purpose. He prods American into reexamining--or at least talking about--their stance on Israel, and in doing so, maybe it will eventually be possible for our politicians to make "coldly rational decisions" about policy toward Israel without the constant fear of the charge of antisemitism.

 

ITGURU42

5:05 PM ET

February 22, 2010

"Surely Israel has a right to

"Surely Israel has a right to defend itself, but what about the 10 year-old Palestinian playing soccer in the streets when the Israeli bombardment starts?"

The Geneva Conventions are clear: blame lies with HAMAS, PLO, and the rest of the Palestinian genocidal alphabet soup of terrorist organizations. It lies with them for recruiting women and children to deliver their attacks. It lies with them for dressing as civilians, hiding their weapons and soldiers in civilian homes while on-duty, for lobbing missiles and mortars from the rooftop or sidewalk of civilian homes, shops, hospitals, and civic buildings.

I mourn for the ten-year-old, but I put the moral blame right where it should be: on the terrorists who hide behind women and children for protection.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

12:54 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Crimes against humanity

ITGURU42 Israelis being transported to an occupied territory, Palestine, is defined by the Geneva Conventions as a Crime Against Humanity. Israeli trespassers and squatters on Palestinian land must expect the use of force by Palestinians, to remove them from Palestinian lands. It is a long settled law that the owner of land must openly and notoriously contest the occupation of his land by the trespasser.

 

ITGURU42

9:04 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Yawwwwwn. The Arabs started

Yawwwwwn.

The Arabs started how many genocidal wars and lost.

"Palestinian" land? When it was held by Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Transjordan, the "Palestinians" might have had a case. Today, after starting more genocidal wars, they have no case left. Time to cut the crap.

 

LONESTAR28

2:27 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Revisionist History

Dear Mr. Carter,

Thank you for enlightening me on the truth behind your presidency and its accomplishments. For so long I have been misinformed and disillusioned into believing lies accepted by all but 15% of the American public.
I never realized that you were the one responsible for putting us on the road to normalized relations with China... for some strange reason I had always thought it was Nixon who did that.
I never knew the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty was your initiative... I had always assumed Sadat launched it himself by traveling to Israel in 1977, the culmination of months of negotiations pre-dating your presidency.
I always knew your strong declaration of human rights in Iran (that energized anti-government dissenters) was taken out of context, and that you couldn't have predicted that withdrawing American support for the Shah's regime would lead to its collapse and replacement by a far worse and more egregious violator of human rights. People who blame you for allowing the rise of America's greatest enemy today are just ignorant.

Your sincere revelations have also forced me to re-evaluate other presidents who got a raw deal....I will no longer believe lies about Franklin Pierce and James Buchanan that they sat idle for 8 years and allowed the Union to collapse into Civil War. I will no longer assume Richard Nixon had any involvement or knowledge in the Watergate break-in, and I will forever know that it may have been Dwight Eisenhower, not JFK, who was fully responsible for the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

Thank you Mr. Carter, for challenging my beliefs of well-established facts that nobody else dares dispute. I will take away many lessons from your reasonable defense and be sure to apply them in the future.

 

JACOB BLUES

2:41 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Is Carter drinking Billy beer?!?

"but my decision to refrain from military action (in Iran)-- unless they harmed a hostage -- proved to be well-advised"

I'm sorry, I must have missed this idea among the wreckage of Operation Eagle Claw (or Operation Evening Light, pick a title). And of course that debacle was followed by Operation Credible Sport, which never even got off the drawing board.

Meanwhile, Carter's paper tiger approach to foreign policy was seen by Fidel Castro as a sign of weakness, ultimately allowing him to increase the exposure of Cuban troops in Angola.

 

ITGURU42

4:18 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Blah blah blah

Same old Jimmah Cardigan, same old anti-semitism.

What was the point of his administration again? I lived through it and all I remember is praying it would end sooner rather than later.

Worst. President. EVER.

 

MGILMOUR8

4:35 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Anti-semite

I'm curious ITGURU, what do you call Netanyahu, Lieberman, and the rest of the Likud party?

Criticize Israeli policies, and your called an anti-semite. I think it would be more accurate to call absolute defenders of Israel... anti-American.

 

ITGURU42

4:51 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Jimmah Cardigan is an

Jimmah Cardigan is an anti-semite because he hates jews. Very simple.

The fact that you also have a deep-seated hatred, and utter the same old cover-words as others, sways me not in the slightest. Ol' Jimmah's own words, when he wrote his disgusting book which parroted a recent libel and in times when he has been caught "pants down" speaking his real mind freely instead of self-censoring, have shown him to be so.

Stand around blaming Dem Evil Joos for everything wrong in the world and especially in the Middle East, fail to hold the Arabs to blame for their starting of multiple genocidal wars, the pogroms of the 1920s, and for gobbling up all the supposed "Palestinian" land and then sticking the "poor Palestinians" into "refugee camps" (quick quiz: who held all the land the supposed "Palestinians" are living in "refugee camps" on in 1948? That's right - the Arab nations), and I will call you what you are: a deluded anti-semite.

Peace will come with honesty. There so far is none from Carter, from his anti-semite friends, or it would seem, from you.

 

MGILMOUR8

5:42 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Tired Rhetoric

Substantiate specifically anything I've said that is anti-semitic. Of course you can't.

Israel has to acknowledge its injustices (substantiated by numerous independent human rights groups) and stop violating U.N. resolutions by illegally occupying territory that does not belong to it if it is ever to achieve peace.

Until then, the State of Israel, and no, not Jewish people, is a liability for Americans.

 

ITGURU42

6:27 PM ET

February 22, 2010

You start by lobbing a list

You start by lobbing a list of bogeymen.

Then you run for the traditional cover of the anti-Semite, the "but I'm just criticizing Israel" lie. Odd how it always goes downhill from there.

Is there room to criticize policies of Israel? Sure. Do I believe that's all you are after? If I were that dumb, you could sell me the Brooklyn Bridge too.

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

7:35 PM ET

February 22, 2010

He is a bad person because he is awful

ITGURU42, I want to respond to your arguments.

You say: "Jimmah Cardigan is an anti-semite because he hates jews"

Wonderfully circular. You are--up and down this message board--pretty much summing up all of the ridiculous, one sided arguments about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Argument 1 (paraphrased): "It's the other Arab countries that created the situation in Palestine". Let's assume that's true (let's ignore, for now, the there would be no refugee camps if the Zionists had not decided to set a state where a bunch of people already lived). How does that make the situation in Palestine today, in 2010, justifiable? Should failings of past Arab regimes (and they are many) subject the Palestinians to eternal peril?

Argument 2 (paraphrased): "Jimmy Carter hates Jews because he is critical of Israel, which he is critical of because of his deep-seeded antisemitism". I think that is ridiculous enough on its face--no need to deconstruct it any further.

Argument 3 (paraphrased): "Calling Israel an apartheid state is antisemitic libel". Libel is writing that misrepresents the truth in an effort to damage the subject of the writing. Apartheid is the policy of separation based on caste or ethnic group. Is it a misrepresentation to say that Israel has constructed multiple barriers with the expressed purpose of separating Palestinians from Jews? No question the Palestinians employ deplorable tactics, and I understand why Israeli's would grow tired of the constant threat of suicide bombings, but if you build a wall to keep an antagonistic ethnic group away from your ethnic group you have created an apartheid. Sorry, you entitled to whatever terminology you choose (Jews call it the "Anti-terrorist wall", Arabs call it the "racial segregation wall"), but you are not entitled to your own facts. The World Court (the UN's high court) says of the West Bank barrier: "Israel cannot rely on a right of self?defense or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall. Construction of the barrier is contrary to international law." Is the court in cahoots with Carter--an antisemite-packed court perhaps?

Argument 4 (paraphrased): "If you agree with Carter you are obviously an avowed antisemite who hates Jews".
You're just running up and down this message board throwing flames at anyone who takes issue with any of your poorly constructed arguments. I think this, quoted directly, typifies your response to any argument critical of Israel:

"Then you run for the traditional cover of the anti-Semite, the "but I'm just criticizing Israel" lie.

Not content with the ad hominem, you tack on a little of the ol' slippery slope:

"Odd how it always goes downhill from there."

ITGURU42, you can do better.

 

ITGURU42

9:57 PM ET

February 22, 2010

"Is it a misrepresentation to

"Is it a misrepresentation to say that Israel has constructed multiple barriers with the expressed purpose of separating Palestinians from Jews?"

You bet your ass it is. The Arabs have, far more than those "Evil Jews" you hate so much, done demeaning and degrading things to the "palestinians", starting with sectioning them off. Stealing the land that was supposed to be theirs from the 1948 accords. Putting up walls around them long before the "Evil Jews" were stuck maintaining them and eventually putting up walls of their own in self-defence.

Educate yourself, if educating something like you is indeed possible. Who were the first to wall off the Palestinian terrorists in Gaza? Hint: it wasn't Israel.

"The World Court (the UN's high court) says of the West Bank barrier:"

And we are supposed to take the word of a body which is set up largely for the purpose of attacks upon Israel, created by a body which makes a burgeoning industry of constantly attacking Israel based on the outrageous claims of tin-pot dictatorships, actual human rights abusers and ridiculous 7th-century religious despotisms, with anything less than a few strip-mines worth of salt? Really? A body which has placed nations like Cuba, Libya, Syria, and the Despotic Regime of China on a "Human Rights" commission?

How gullible are you, really?

As for the rest of your dishonest "paraphrases", I expect no less of someone who falsely claims to have been a member of the US military to buttress his other lies.

Tell me, do you enjoy knocking down strawmen? Because that is all you have done here. You have not correctly "paraphrased" even one sentence of what I have said, you stinking liar.

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

10:16 PM ET

February 22, 2010

I win.

Thanks.

 

MGILMOUR8

12:29 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Boogey men?

Lobbing a list of boogey men... ? The two men mentioned are the current Prime Minister, another currently serving in the Knesset, and the political party associated with both of them. How is this a list of boogey men. They are Israel's current leadership.

You have no argument, just pathetic ranting and name calling that lacks any coherent logic to support it. It's laughable, and completely proves the point of how the policies of the Israeli government cannot be criticized without Pro-Israelis crying anti-semitism.

Hopefully my fellow Americans will finally become wise to these bullying tactics and start treating Israel with the scrutiny we should treat any other country, especially our closest allies.

 

ITGURU42

9:06 AM ET

February 23, 2010

You lose.

You lose and should be prosecuted for your lying claim to be an Iraq veteran just like Jessie Macbeth.

 

MARVINS390

12:00 AM ET

February 24, 2010

blah blah blah

thank you for your rational well thought out responses. i, too lived through the carter administration. i can tell you that after a long liberal background (ccny), active democrat, my mother an active member of our local democratic club, i became a reagan democrat and never looked back, becoming the first republican in the family. my wife who looked for the liberal party after we moved to california in the 70's also is a conservative.
there is no doubt in my mind that carter has been aligned with the arabs since his presidency and the "al het" he gave to the jewish community was based on the fact that his grandson is running for congree in georgia in a predominately jewish district.
there is no doubt in my mind that, if given the opportunity, that obama will follow a similar path.
keep up the good work!!

 

TOMSAVAGE

5:36 PM ET

February 22, 2010

History Will Judge You...

to have been one of the best Presidents we've had, and one that worked hardest for World Peace. Illegitini non carborundum. Namaste.

 

TOMSAVAGE

5:48 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Pardon

illegitiMi. Can't type at the speed of thought ;-)

 

INTDLN

8:24 PM ET

February 22, 2010

President Carter

President Carter is a sincere, honest and well meaning person. He is also a patriot and a great humanitarian. However he lost my support and admiration when he lost the troops in desert on the aborted rescue attempt and embroiled himself in the resue of these unfortunate patriots in Iran. He should have tended to running the country and not paralyzed his Office. Also he lost me when her pardoned the draft dodgers that ran to Canada during the Vietnam War. We lost 58000 brave souls, while the draft dodgers broke the law but lived in comfort.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

12:44 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Marines blunder

INTDLN The Marines fouled up the mission in Iran. For you to criticise Mr. Carter for the failure of the Marines is ridiculous. Your reason for your hostility is Mr. Carter, in your mind, stopped the Nile-to-Euphrates Eretz Israel program by getting Israel to hand back the Sinia to the Egyptians.

 

ITGURU42

9:09 AM ET

February 23, 2010

As if the Israelis ever

As if the Israelis ever wanted to hold Sinai permanently? Please. Pull the other one.

Throw any more codewords out and you'll qualify as the anti-semite's walking codebook.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

12:09 PM ET

February 23, 2010

Israeli anti-semitism

ITGURU42 Anti-semitism against the Palestinians, Arabs, and some Muslims, coming from you has been the backbone of your comments.

 

WILDTHING

8:32 PM ET

February 22, 2010

Afghanistan

It is very pertinent to our country and President Obama if I am correct in having read that Brzezinski and President Carter agreed upon signing some document related to aiding insurgents in Afghanistan on 07/06/79 or thereabouts and agreed such assistance would cause the Soviet Union to occupy Afghanistan and receive a good dose of Vietnam experience.

So as in similar manner Carter suffered the revenge of the 1954 CIA assistance overthrowing the Iranian gov't so now we have reaped the retaliation of CIA supported insurgents gone rouge on us and the fact that Afghanistan has been used as a Cold War pawn and received 30 years of unremitting pain and suffering and death and destruction. In rthe meantime we rail with Never Forget 9/11 and go ballistic and even declare a war on terror that now Brzezinski has termed an ill advised expression which it most certainly is since we were the first terrorists in this war...

 

WILDTHING

8:10 PM ET

February 23, 2010

beginning in 1978

In coloser reading i see in the article that the covert opetions to use Afghanistan as cold war cannon fodder began in 1978!!!

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

12:10 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Eretz Israel

Mr. Carter and Mr. Brzezinski: Having read Mr. Mead's article and your replies, you should be aware, that the criticism and comparison of Mr. Carter and President Obama, is coming from peculiar direction.

The common thread that is driving the comparison is coming from the Eretz Israel group and its supporters. The actions of Mr. Carter and President Obama that are raising their ire are the following:

Mr. Carter obtained a peace treaty between Egypt and Israel, in part by demanding and receiving Israel hand back the Sinai. The handing back of the Sinai sticks in the craw of the Eretz Israel group because it reverses their objectives.

President Obama is pursuing a lawful policy demanding Israel not violate international law by building an occupying settlements in the occupied territories. Again this demand is bitterly opposed by the Eretz Israel group.

Please understand, the vitriolic and hostility to President Obama and Mr. Carter is coming from both overt and covert supporters of the Eretz Israel concept.

Once you understand the motives of the people, their covert machinations to see an Eretz Israel, the criticisms and comparisons fall into place.

 

MGILMOUR8

12:49 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Pro-Israel Bullies

CAMERA and other right wing, Pro-Israel media groups are relentless in their pursuit to stifle any debate relating to Israel. Carter is well aware of this. All the more reason to recognize his bravery in confronting these issues.

CAMERA and these other AIPAC groups should be registered as foreign entities in the U.S. as they are placing the interests of another nation above that of the U.S. The same can probably be said of many other nationalistic/ethinic lobbying groups, but the Pro-Israel ones have been the most vitriolic and oppressive, and causing the U.S. the most damage in terms of its national security and overall interests.

 

ITGURU42

9:11 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Ahhh....

The age-old "Israel Lobby", aka "Secret Cabals of Jews Control The World" bullshit.

Wonderful to see how you nutballs come out of the woodwork. So how is the City Full Of Gays anyways, Mike? Please, go visit an Arab nation and see what they do to people with your sexual preference. I bet you'd be happier in Israel, where your type have the right to live peacefully rather than get their heads cut off.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

12:12 PM ET

February 23, 2010

Dangerous Israel

ITGURU42 With targeted assasination as a government policy in Israel, and the government identity theft and use of those identities for killings, Israel is not a safe place to go for anyone, including the Olim.

 

DECONSTRUCTOR

3:33 AM ET

February 23, 2010

anti-Semitism, indecision, incapacity??

Reviewing the comments of majority of bloggers one can see an intentional attempt to represent Mr. Carter in the negative light about the person who has the courage to talk objectively and neutrally about very important issues, for instance, the Middle East and propose solutions which are in the interests of the US, Israel and Arab countries. What kind of anti-Semitism is involved here considering the fact that both Arabs and Jews are Semites, even though this vocabulary is essentially poor in international relations and politics? Israel owns its current status of security and hegemony thanks to the Treaty between Egypt and Israel encouraged by Mr. Carter which shaped the current balance of power status in the region in favor of Israel and US. Due to the poor foreign policy of the US and colonial policy and regional aspirations of Israel this fragile balance of power is getting changed which worries hawks in US and Israel. You just sow what you seed!

 

ITGURU42

10:57 AM ET

February 23, 2010

The phrase is "reap what you

The phrase is "reap what you sow."

As for the "both arabs and jews are semites" saw, please stop. The dictionary definition of anti-semitism is racial/religious bigotry and hatred directed against jews.

"Due to the poor foreign policy of the US"

- You mean time and again trying to broker peace only to have genocidal Arab groups lie and break their promises?

"and regional aspirations of Israel"

- Oh I'll agree. Israel should not have the aspiration to live in peace with secure borders and a lack of bombs, rockets, and mortars flying at her citizens. And they definitely shouldn't have the aspiration to be a model to the region of how a fully functioning representative government operates, a definite fresh alternative to the tin-pot dictatorships, fascist and monarchist regimes, and outright frauds that comprise the Islamist political system of the 27 Arab nations surrounding it.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

12:16 PM ET

February 23, 2010

True face of anti-semitism

ITGURU42 Isrealis practice anti-semitism with impunity, using violence, terrorism, and apartheid against the semitic people of Palestine. The term anti-semite was coined to describe the hatred of some europeans to those with semitic features. An Ashkenazi attacking a Palestinian fits that very definition of an anti-semite.

 

NSC LONDON

5:49 AM ET

February 23, 2010

BFDMidWhiltshire

“When I made the statement about the American public's opinion being colored by the Palestinian dress, I did not mean that Americans viewed Palestinians as the less sympathetic group because their dress was less Western than that of the Israelis. I wasn't saying that Americans hold different clothing to be bad prima facie.” Really? That’s exactly what you appeared to be saying. But anyway...

You’ve glossed over the critical issue at the heart of the US public’s support of Israel by simply dismissing it as “one-sided” or superficial to endorse one side over the other due to deep civilisational incompatibilities, which is ironically quite a superficial stance to take on this issue. To simply say that Israeli culture is “more palatable” is downplaying the significance of the rift between Islam and the west, a rift that few Americans (and increasingly few Europeans) are willing to dismiss. For many westerners it may seem like aiding one’s own demise to support 1) a Muslim state that 2) endorses terror against civilians as an acceptable means of conflict resolution and 3) continues to enforce the horrific anti-Jew, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-progress agenda that is at the heart of Islam.

So, while casually casting these facts aside you instead resort to the liberal’s most frequently used tool – emotional appeal. “But what about the CHILDREN!!!!” All I can do in response to such a nonsensical tactic is to employ a similarly absurd device, namely the oft used conservative tool, mean-spirited humour. So what about that 10 year old boy? Well, the kids, they blow up so fast these days!

Might Israel have to cede some ground someday? Yes, I wouldn’t rule that out. Might the bleeding heart Left have to acknowledge that when dealing with Islam they are dealing with a dangerous, violent political system that poses the single greatest fascist threat the world has faced since Hitler? I should hope so. Furthermore, I find it amusing that you believe the statement “Israel has a right to defend itself” somehow “loaded.”

So I guess where I personally am netting out on this is – I’d like to see the US/EU continue to pressure Israel to ensure it acts within the confines of the Geneva convention, I don’t fully endorse Israel’s tactics but do fully, unequivocally support Israel’s right to exist. I’d also like to see the US/EU draw upon Israel’s experience dealing with a common enemy.

To this ITGURU character, please stop wantonly hurling charges of anti-Semitism, it only undermines instances of real anti-Semitism. Due to people like you I worry that “anti-Semitism” may one day become a meaningless accusation, much the same way that “conspiracy” has been ruined by various crackpots and goofballs like yourself.

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

7:57 PM ET

February 23, 2010

I think you've got me wrong

If you think I was saying that the Palestinians are uniformly not guilty or that I have a soft spot for Islamists, you've got me wrong.

When you say:
.
"For many westerners it may seem like aiding one’s own demise to support 1) a Muslim state that 2) endorses terror against civilians as an acceptable means of conflict resolution and 3) continues to enforce the horrific anti-Jew, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-progress agenda that is at the heart of Islam."
.
you should know that I'm right there with you. I think that our unwillingness to play tough with the Saudis is FAR more appalling then our unwillingness to put pressure on Israel. The spread of Wahhabi Islam, a direct result of Sadui money flowing into the hate-teaching madrassas that extend across central Asia and all the way down to the Philippines, is perhaps the most pernicious cultural phenomenon in history. As an ideology, it is WORSE, I think--more dangerous, more irrational, more pervasive, and most importantly, more permanent--than any of the fascist ideologies of the previous century. I will say that Hitler's Wehrmacht was far more dangerous to the world than Islamofacisim in the short run, but don't confuse what I am saying with a weakness for Islam. You'll find none here.
.
.
As for this, "So, while casually casting these facts aside you instead resort to the liberal’s most frequently used tool – emotional appeal" I don't think that's a fair charge. The reason I mentioned a ten-year-old is that I think we can all agree that he/she, at that age, would be free from guilt in the I/P conflict. What I was saying is that many people who are not guilty of supporting Islamofacists are killed as a result of Israeli military action. If you think that is "emotional appeal"--if you think that saying "steps should be taken to protect the innocent" is emotional appeal--then I have no idea why you are supportive of the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Conventions were created (in large part) for the protection of civilians caught up in war.
.
And, while I'm sure you were trying to be cute, but I'll nevertheless mention that this statement:
"So what about that 10 year old boy? Well, the kids, they blow up so fast these days!"
is not exactly in line with the Geneva conventions you claim to support.
.
.
What I am advocating is that Israel restrict themselves to a more targeted approach when dealing with Hezbollah, etc., not that the Israelis refuse to respond when their border towns are bombarded by rockets. I'm advocating proportionality and precision, not pacifism. And I'm advocating that US politicians push for such an approach, even if there are ITGURU42-types in Israeli government refuse on the grounds that Israel is right in all situations, and Israel has some sort of divine mandate to do whatever it wants. It is in the interest of the US for Israel to secure a peace deal, and I am interested in what is good for the US. Like it or not, there are religious crazies in Israel--just like there are in the US--who would reject any deal that required them to give anything up because they think the Jews have some sort of Biblical claim to the land. I think such people should be roundly ignored.
.
.
As for this statement: "Might Israel have to cede some ground someday? Yes, I wouldn’t rule that out", I really don't know what the alternative is. Seems to me that if the Israelis want peace (and I'd venture to say that the ones who aren't bent on expanding Israeli territory through settlements--the average Israeli, the non-fanatic--probably do), they are going to have negotiate some kind of two state solution. I don't really see an alternative, but I would welcome you, NSC LONDON, or anybody else on here (ITGURU42 excepted) to lay out an alternative if they think there is one.

 

BFDMIDWILSHIRE

3:36 AM ET

February 24, 2010

Sorry NSC LONDON

I read your post hastily. (I guess I wrote in the same manner, because I noticed several editing mistakes in my previous posts). Anyway, I took this comment: "Well, the kids, they blow up so fast these days!" out of context.

I ignored the preceding sentence: "All I can do in response to such a nonsensical tactic is to employ a similarly absurd device, namely the oft used conservative tool, mean-spirited humour.".

(Though I stand by my statement that my use of 10-year-old civilian was not an appeal to emotion.)

 

ITGURU42

9:49 AM ET

February 23, 2010

BFDMidwilshire

is another Jessie Macbeth, no more, no less. His claims of being from the US military (especially USMC) are a lying smokescreen to claim legitimacy and distract from what he really is.

The moment he starts throwing words like "Zionist" around, he reveals what he really is, just another racist in sheep's clothing.

He, like most anti-semites wandering around looking for a chance to claim the cover of "criticizing Israel" rather than admit what they are really about, uses such a tortured reading of the Geneva Conventions that it would never hold up. The presence of civilians, especially unknowing or "forcibly held" civilians, CANNOT be used to render an area full of military personnel/equipment immune from attack.

The Palestinians violate the following sections wilfully every day. I make no claim this list is complete, but it is a start.

Article 37, paragraph 1, of the Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of August 12, 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)[2]
It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary and resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy: (a) the feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender; (b) the feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness; (c) the feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and (d) the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not parties to the conflict.

Article 38, paragraph 1, Protocol I
It is also prohibited to misuse deliberately in an armed conflict other internationally recognized protective emblems, signs or signals, including the flag of truce, and the protective emblem of cultural property.

Article 44, paragraph 3, Protocol I
In order to promote the protection of the civilian population from the effects of hostilities, combatants are obliged to distinguish themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Recognizing, however, that there are situations in armed conflicts where, owing to the nature of the hostilities an armed combatant cannot so distinguish himself, he shall retain his status as a combatant, provided that, in such situations, he carries his arms openly: (a) during each military engagement, and (b) during such time as he is visible to the adversary while he is engaged in a military deployment preceding the launching of an attack in which he is to participate.

Article 51, paragraph 7, Protocol I
The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.

Were BFDMidwilshire really a USMC member, he would be fully aware of these. Since he is instead a lying son of a bitch, just a Jessie Macbeth, he doesn't and he persists in his nonsensical tirades.

 

NSC LONDON

10:12 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Are you off your meds?

I don't agree with MidWhiltshire and I think he's got a bit of a libby soft spot for the wrong team, but you sound like a raving lunatic (presumably you actually ARE a raving lunatic).

Seriously, you're only undermining your own cause with the ad hominem attacks and trigger hair "ANTI-SEMITE!!!!" responses. Waaaait a minute here, are you secretly a pro-Palestine troll trying to discredit reasonable criticisms of Israel? I thought my tinfoil hat was feeling a bit tingly!

 

ITGURU42

10:35 AM ET

February 23, 2010

I have yet to see anything in

I have yet to see anything in this discussion, certainly not anything from BFDMcJessieMacbeth or Jimmah Cardigan, that remotely approaches a "reasonable criticism of Israel."

If you feel there has been, please respond and point out what you consider "reasonable."

 

NSC LONDON

11:03 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Okey dokey, I found this among the more "reasonable" passages

"You may think that bombing Lebanon's infrastructure and civilians in 2006 was totally justified, but I think that it was out of proportion to the event that set the campaign in motion (an attack on a pair of Israeli military vehicles). No doubt about it, the Israeli's have to deal with a bunch of fanatics who will do anything they can to win a victory. You can bet Hezbollah will hide their rockets in buildings filled with civilians and fire rockets into Israeli towns until the day a peace is reached (and at this point, I'm not so sure that day will come). But the more powerful force does have a moral obligation to obtain from causing civilian causalities, and Israel has not always done so--the 2006 campaign is a prime example."

Do I necessarily agree that the more powerful force has any moral obligation? No, I say bomb the hell out of them until there are none left to hurl rocks at the tanks - BUT, I find his assessment of the 2006 very reasonable indeed. He presents a balanced view of this skirmish.

 

ITGURU42

11:14 AM ET

February 23, 2010

You're joking, right? " but I

You're joking, right?

" but I think that it was out of proportion to the event that set the campaign in motion (an attack on a pair of Israeli military vehicles). "

Right here he plays down the Hizb'allah side. The "attack on a pair of Israeli military vehicles" was the proverbial straw breaking the camel's back, following a long series of Lebanese mortar and missile attacks lobbed at Israeli towns - CIVILIAN targets, I might add, that did not harbor any Israeli military assets, unlike the Hizb'allah military assets stored in the targets the Israelis hit. In the same COORDINATED attack where the Israeli military vehicles were hit, missiles and mortars were lobbed at these towns to distract Israeli assets on damage assessment and prevent a quick counterattack.

"But the more powerful force does have a moral obligation to obtain from causing civilian causalities"

Setting aside that the real word he should have used is "refrain", rather than "obtain", the statement is still bogus, and shows unequivocally a complete lack of understanding of international law and the Geneva Conventions. This alone is enough to show me that there's no way in hell he's USMC-anything.

The 2006 campaign is not a "prime example" of anything but the fact that the Arab terrorist groups - Hamas, PLO, PFLP, Hizb'allah, and the rest - deliberately violate the Geneva Conventions by putting civilians in harm's way for protective and propaganda value. I have, previously, quoted the relevant Geneva Conventions passages for you.

Your contention that the statement you quote is somehow "reasonable" or "balanced" is patently ridiculous.

 

LIBERALFASCIST

11:17 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Jimmy Obama Carter

Jimmy Carter was by far the worst President to ever be elected into office. Obama has the ability to be far worse but he is not there yet. Carter hated America (Free America that is)
I was a kid when he was President and I remember how bad the economy became and I really remember how he destroyed the American spirit. How under him people would say they were American in very low times. There was no sense of pride while he was destroying America in his failed attempt to turn us into a Soviet Union clone.
Looking back I am shocked that Russia did not attack us then as everyone knew Carter would have surrendered before fighting. The same way every two bit dictator is doing what they will with Obama in the White House. They did the same with Mr Peanut
Carter is a joke, and now with his mind going he has resorted to calling everyone who opposes Government control a racist. He needs to sit back with a case of "Billy Beer" and a jar of Carter Peanuts and keep out of politics. He was a failure then and he is worse now.
Jimmy my parents voted for you then within 6 months wanted a refund. Thankfully they learned from your idiocy and did not vote for Obumma this time around

 

DAVIDGREENFUTUREDOC

11:20 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Israeli TV Reports that Israel Harvested Organs from Dead Palest

The story of the Israeli army and medical fields' conspiring to harvest Palestinian organs was proven earlier late last year by Israeli TV.

Check it out:

CBS News:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/20/ap/middleeast/main6001606.shtml

Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

B--shire is right: s/he wins.

 

ITGURU42

11:28 AM ET

February 23, 2010

Oh please.

The first link was a dead link, probably because CBS found out the "story" was bogus.

The second link, heavily amended, is about a generic medical scandal that could easily happen anywhere in the world, in which a hospital (singular) was harvesting organs from ANY dead body in their morgue.

Relevant quote:
"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives."

The article you are looking for was published in the Swedish paper Aftonbladet, and later retracted completely when it turned out that the "reporter" had falsified most of his story, including when the PALESTINIAN FAMILIES he supposedly interviewed said they had told him no such thing.

I pray to whatever deity may exists that you never become a "doctor", you uneducated anti-semitic dolt.

 

ITGURU42

12:34 PM ET

February 23, 2010

Mike Sacramento, eh?

"Isrealis"? Really?

Your swastika is showing.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

9:53 PM ET

February 23, 2010

Swastika of David

ITGURU42 You wear your swastika well. Israelis emulate swastika wearing Germans, building walls and fences around the Gaza ghetto, where Palestinians are allowed out under an Arbeit Mach Frei policy. Palestinians languishing for decades in ghettos, refugee camps, denied their right of return to their homeland. Readers of this blog can clearly see a thread running through your comments. No crime is too great for you to commit, crimes against humanity, terrorism, bombing buildings, land theft, shooting children, apartheid, assasinations, killings, using white phosphorus on civilians, all because you think a Jew is entiled to commit these crimes and not be held responsible. The hollow cries of anti-semitism are not a defense to prosecution for these crimes.

 

JORDANC

3:09 PM ET

February 23, 2010

I thought this was FP

ITGuru, you sound like you belong on Fox News. You seem to be knowledgeable but blinded by your own hate and bias. It's obvious that you suspect antisemitism in everyone and anything remotely resembling criticism of Israel. Take a deep breath and recognize your own biases. Despite your intelligence and grasp of facts, your entire argument is suspect based on your illogical tirades that devolve into name-calling.

 

ITGURU42

3:21 PM ET

February 23, 2010

"Fox News"?

My own biases?

Fine. I'll admit: I am terminally allergic to bullshit. And I do not suffer lies, fools, racists, or anti-semites gladly.

I suspect anti-semitism when I see idiots parroting the words of anti-semites. Nothing that has been said by the anti-semites above has not also been said by the worst rank anti-semites the world has to offer.

 

KFIRMENA

4:57 PM ET

February 23, 2010

His major geopolitical setback was in Iran

Do you want more?

I think that if our European Friends didn't realize the damage that disturbing the balance between Shiites and Sunnis, by not supporting Mohammad-Rez? Sh?h Pahlavi’s government, we should have known better and support his regime on our own.

After all, who was and to some degree is still, the leader in the West?, and who would be affected the most by instability in the Middle East?

We are still paying the price for the instability originated from the removal of Shah’s regime. After, two Gulf Wars, Al-Qaeda’s terrorist efforts, and a conflict in Afghanistan,, that is threatening to de-stabilize Pakistan and India.

Moreover, his mismanagement of US Foreign Policy, were closer to us, by allowing that a revolution against Somoza in Nicaragua, be hijacked by the Sandinistas. The damage to the US in the America’s was irreversible, and we are seeing the fruits of that in the like’s of Chavez and the rest of his gang, spreading hate towards the US and their poison in the streets of America

 

GENNY

5:13 PM ET

February 23, 2010

North of the Middle East...

Sorry for interfering with this enlightened discussion. I'd like only to remind that at that time there was a very little country with very peaceful generals - the ussr. Not as big and dangerous as Palestine or Persia, but posed some problem, first of all to itself, because it was hungry and dirty. Over the last thirty + years the things changed a bit, but nevertheless, when you today cross the border from, say, Ukraine (before Yanukovich's presidency) to Russia, you see, by contrast, that many heavy problems remain. So, to whom are sure that one sixth of the Earth is a friendly and cheerful land, I'd suggest to come to Russia and to invest a couple of bucks into the most innocent things. Then, after some time, it would be interesting to read you success stories.
As to the historic assessments, sure that the names of Mr. Carter and Mr.Brzezinsky still cause many former big Russians / Soviets feel not comfortable, so, they are not yet the history.

 

JORDANC

5:15 PM ET

February 23, 2010

Terminally allergic

I too suffer from such allergies. I suppose we just differ in severity. Let's try a different approach - has any action of Israel in their treatment, policy and/or wars with the Palestinians been unjustified or open to criticism? Anything at all in Israel's history that you can find issue with? This way you (being an open minded individual and obviously intelligent) can state justified criticism of Israel thereby providing a contrast to those offered by these antisemitic bullshitters.

 

MGILMOUR8

6:21 PM ET

February 23, 2010

ITGURU42... Radio Silence

ITGURU could never answer this question, at least without listing a dozen reasons why Israel was justified in any wrong doing it committed. He, and other crazy right wing Zionists like him, are equal if not worse than Hamas and the many other Islamic loonies in their blind prejudice and stupidity. They rail against Hamas but idolize the Irgun who were/are different halves of the same rotten fruit.

But the more people like ITGURU come out into the light and expose their lack of logic and idiocy, the better the odds even-handed Zionists can again lead Israel and the American-Israel lobby. Then there may actually be a chance for peace.

The biggest irony is that if ITGURU and others of his ilk get what they want in the short term, longer term Israel will have a non-Jewish majority. If their illegal land grab of the West Bank is successful, they will have to give the indigenous people voting rights. As I understand it, within twenty years this collectively new Israel would then be non-Jewish. Then we'll see how democratic "the one democracy in the Middle East" will be. Israel as a concept can only continue if it i.) ceases to be a democracy, or ii.) gives up the Occupied Territories, or (the current government's goal)... iii.) induces the native population to flee to other lands to escape Israel's apartheid oppression.

 

CHINSHIHTANG

12:36 AM ET

February 24, 2010

Just a thought

How about when your hero, the Wall-builder Ariel Sharon, allowed the Falangists to come into the refugee camps and massacre their Palestinian opponents in Beirut? I would say that perhaps that was worthy of being "open to criticism," though I suppose plausible deniability was maintained to some extent.

 

PBWESTON

5:33 PM ET

February 23, 2010

I hope Obama does not = Carter

Bottom line -- if you are a fan of Obama, then you DO NOT want to see comparisons to Jimmy Carter. Carter's handling of Iran was a mistake, and the charges of anti-semitism are a bit extreme, but it must be admitted that he rarely employs concessionary behavior towards Israel, which is a mistake because clearly a former President of the United States must at least keep an even scorecard of: 1) issue criticism of Israel, followed by; 2), express the US's undying dedication to its cause. Anyone who does not follow this pattern (i.e. Carter) is out of step.

Obama would be wise to take notice.

 

MGILMOUR8

6:34 PM ET

February 23, 2010

Why should we have an undying dedication to Israel & its cause?

Why should we have an undying dedication to any foreign country, let alone one like Israel that has cost us > $100 billion directly, and much more indirectly?

They have at best been a liability. More generally, they commit atrocities to the indigenous populations in and around their borders.

Have we all as U.S. citizens been so brain washed that we fail to ask ourselves why we are obligated to continue this relationship?

 

PBWESTON

10:21 AM ET

February 24, 2010

Well, seeing that Israel is

Well, seeing that Israel is our one serious proxy in the Middle East, it is necessary to posture and placate delicately so that they may continue to be our useful agent in that region. One does not have to literally MEAN the expressed "undying dedication" -- obviously we want Israel to do what WE want them to do, but in that special relationship, we must act with agency and continue to speak as if what is in our best interest is in Israel's best interest. And so our "undying dedication..." to seeing that Israel does what we want them to do.

There may also be a moral imperative here -- especially when issuing the kinds of criticism Carter does so often -- to do so in a pros and cons tally sort of way. Say one good thing; then follow it with astute criticism. It's reflective of the moral situation Israel is in so often -- they commit atrocities (killing innocent people), but certainly this is in the broader scope of unspeakable atrocities committed against them.

And in general, it is wise to be friendly towards the Israel Lobby. Not to go all Walt and Mearsheimer on you, but they are powerful, so play politics. That, certainly, is in President Obama's interest.

 

BAN

9:01 PM ET

February 23, 2010

Twist, turn and wriggle

NOTHING that these gentlemen can say can make up for the infamy that they have brought on themselves with their inexcusable harebrained policies in Iran and Afghanistan. Mr. Brzezinki's decades long consulting for oil companies, his refusal to take responsibility for his lack of knowledge of the region and his stubbornness in promoting some of THE most shameful lobbyists of the regime in Tehran such as Trita Parsi and his attack on good Iranian activists, etc. are the hallmark of this DC career politico's infamy among Iranians and all those who bothered to really stay on top of the mess of a Khomeinist regime that Carter cronies backed. For shame at nearing 80 years of age, this fellow cannot find the class to apologize to an entire nation and now even the world for helping unleash such misery. No wonder Washington is a mess, when you have characters like this 'mover and shaker' performing his best gray eminence role on the international political stage.

 

CHINSHIHTANG

12:17 AM ET

February 24, 2010

Where is the diplomacy?

Considering this is a forum on foreign policy, I am surprised by the intemperate behavior and lack of diplomacy or even subtlety in most of the postings.

Jimmy Carter's efforts to defend his foreign policy are well-grounded but somewhat pathetic, in the sense that others should be pleading his case in his place. Brzezinski does put in his two cents, and his rebuttal is probably more pertinent, in that he relates his argument to the important referent, namely the foreign policy of the Obama administration, which is the one that counts at this point.

Carter's Iran policy was painfully unsuccessful, but he did have significant successes as well, and I would argue that it was not his foreign policy which caused his electoral defeat in 1980--it was the domestic policy, and more particularly, the state of the US economy. If Obama fails to win re-election, the same will be true of him.

The most interesting point, and one that has not been raised in the discussion, was Carter's claim that it was his administration's efforts, and not some behind-the-scenes implied threat or explicit threat from the incoming Reagan administration (the common wisdom), that gained the release of the hostages in Iran. I would like to see some more in-depth research and analysis of this assertion.

I don't want to get in the middle of the Israeli-Palestinian crossfire this discussion has indulged at too-great length except to say that nothing I have seen here changes my opinion that the phrase "two-state solution" is a contradiction in terms..

 

ITGURU42

8:59 AM ET

February 24, 2010

So many replies...

Mike Sacramento,

The "jews=nazis" line has been used by so many anti-semites in the past 4 decades that it has become a cliche. Though it is nice of you to put the final nail in your own coffin. "Swastika of David"? "Gaza ghetto"? Tell me, why do you and your Stormfront buddies think they will not to be found out?

All of the "crimes" you laughably try to pin on the country of Israel were committed, first and foremost and ongoing, by the Arab regimes. It wasn't the Israelis who put the "palestinians" into refugee camps, but the Arabs. It wasn't the Israelis who started walling off the "palestinians", it was the Arabs - first Egypt, then Transjordan.

"Denied the right of return to their homeland"? Pray tell, why is that, and what "homeland"? The Arab governments evacuated the "palestinians" quite deliberately, lost the war, then refused to sign a simple nonaggression pact, instead stuffing the "palestinians" into refugee camps on land the Arabs had stolen (Here's a hint: examine the 1948 partition plan and compare it to the 1948 post-war boundaries. The land that was supposed to be "Palestinian" was not held by Israel, but by Arab states).

Don't believe me? How about you go back. Read the words of Abu Mazen (the current PM of the PLO, aka Mahmoud Abbas), from the PLO journal Falastineth-Thawra, in 1976: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland...The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people."

Or go to Khaled al-Azm, who was the Syrian prime minister during the 1948 war. From his memoirs: ""the call by the Arab Governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and to leave for the bordering Arab countries, after having sown terror among them...Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave...We have brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees, by calling upon them and pleading with them to leave their land, their homes, their work and business."

Harry C. Stebbens, London Evening Standard, 1969:
""Long before the end of the British mandate, between January and April, 48, practically all my Arab Palestinian staff of some 200 men and women and all of the 1800 labor force had left Haifa in spite of every possible effort to assure them of their safety if they stayed. They all left for one or more of the following reasons:

1. The Arab terrorism engendered by the November, 1947, U.N. partition resolution frightened them to death of their imaginative souls and they feared Jewish retaliation.

2. Propagandists promised a blood bath as soon as the mandate ended in which the street of all the cities would run with blood.

3. The promised invasion by the foreign Arab armies (which started on May 14, 1948, with the Arab Legion massacre of some 200 Jewish settlers at Kfar Etzion) was preceded by extensive broadcasts from Cairo, Damascus, Amman, and Beirut to the effect that any Arabs who stayed would be hanged as collaborators with the Jews. "

September 1948, Beirut Telegraph, Emile Ghoury (Palestinian Higher Committee, the forerunner to the PLO): "The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem."

Beirut Muslim newspaper Kul-Shay, August 19, 1951: ""Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."

Cairo newspaper Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12 1963: "The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."

"Mike Sacramento", you are dishonest at best, an outright liar at worst, and most definitely a neo-nazi Stormfront-variety anti-semite. Your codewords have given you away clearly.

MGilmour8,

"Radio silence"? Some of us occasionally sleep, though I notice it's not the case for rank anti-semites like yourself.

" crazy right wing Zionists " - but you're just another of the looney leftist/islamist convergence trying to hide your bullshit behind "reasonable" codewords, like when Hamas says "legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian People" instead of "Drive the Jews into the Sea in a River of Blood" for the consumption of English-speaking audiences.

Jordanc,

"I too suffer from such allergies. I suppose we just differ in severity. Let's try a different approach - has any action of Israel in their treatment, policy and/or wars with the Palestinians been unjustified or open to criticism? Anything at all in Israel's history that you can find issue with? This way you (being an open minded individual and obviously intelligent) can state justified criticism of Israel thereby providing a contrast to those offered by these antisemitic bullshitters."

If you look above at my previous comments, I've said quite clearly: there is room for reasonable criticism of Israel, or any other regime. There is certainly room to decry actions taken in certain instances, or question whether certain policies are correct. For example, I have no quibble with someone who has trouble with the forcing of captured terrorists to march back into their camps in front of Israeli soldiers during the battle of Jenin. I'm sure it seemed like a correct decision to the soldiers on the ground at the time (after all, the terrorists were the ones setting booby traps, therefore they'd know how to avoid them, or else set them off deliberately anyways), but the use of captured enemies, whether they should be covered under the Geneva Conventions or not (and captured terrorists, who fail to abide by the GC themselves, clearly should not) , is morally repugnant.

A side note: since I've mentioned Jenin, I'm sure the anti-semitic crowd will be screaming "massacre", even though every responsible and reliable investigating body has found the claims of a "massacre" to be more of the bullshit to which I am allergic.

Where I draw the line is quite simple: if you are criticizing a policy, then criticize the policy. The moment these anti-semitic assholes start talking, however, it is clear they don't give two shits about the policy: what they really want is just a pretext for anything by which they can get to their real point, which is that Israel is "evil", or should not exist. Mike Sacramento is a blatant example. So too is Mgilmour who rants about "zionists", "apartheid oppression", and all the other bullshit that the anti-semitic nutjob crowd are so fond of spouting.

Carter spouts the same codewords of the rest of the anti-semitic crowd, therefore I call him what he is: a senile old nasty rank anti-semite.

 

A123

1:16 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Carter and Aparteid State Analogy

I have read a lot of what people have to say on the FP post relating to Israel and an apartheid state and I think many of you have a false sense of what this analogy concludes.

I would highly recommend people read the information below from well sounded academic and scholarly resources. I think it will certainly give you a different perspective of the term "apartheid."

1. The Apartheid Allegation by the David Project.
http://www.thedavidproject.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=98:the-qapartheidq-allegation-main&layout=blog&Itemid=42

2. Gideon Shimoni, Deconstructing Apartheid Accusations Against
Israel, Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, September 2, 2007
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=381&PID=470&IID=1806

3. Robbie Sabel “The Campaign to Delegitimize Israel with the false charge of Apartheid”, Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs 2009

 

ITGURU42

1:21 PM ET

February 24, 2010

"Sam from California" eh?

Mike Sacramento by any other name is still an idiot.

"Does that justify a double standard...?"

Spoken like a true retard who lacks even a basic understanding of the history of the conflict. Try reading above: why is it that "Palestinians" whose homes were in the West Bank, Gaza, or other parts of the area that were gobbled up by Arab regimes, are supposed to "return" to the borders of Israel? This is the dishonest nonsense that has been pushed for generations.

The phrase "liberate palestine" has been pushed by the terrorists since 1948. They don't mean "liberate palestine", they mean "destroy Israel", but it sounds better to claim they are "liberating" something.

"Either way, he seems to cherry pick facts about Arabs, and excuse ALL mistakes of Israel"

Did you even read whatI wrote above? Obviously not, "Mike by another name." Dumbass.

"There were recently a bunch of wealthy, connected Rabbis in New Jersey who were connected to an organ harvesting ring, is "Reality" anti-semitic?"

Look. I will spell it out clearly for you, you lying, anti-semitic pile of rectal ejection.

An organ harvesting ring is an organ harvesting ring. To claim that "wealthy, connected Rabbis" were involved while leaving out the long list of who ELSE was involved is a slur, pure and simple. You are no better than the dumbshit anti-semite who pulled up lying, retracted or corrected articles claiming there was "organ harvesting of Palestinians" when the reality was that one hospital was found to be harvesting organs indiscriminately from any body they had on hand.

Wehn bad things happen, those responsible deserve to be punished. When bad things happen, and shithead neo-nazi anti-semites like yourself scream about how it's because "evil Jews" are the cause of it, you reveal what you really are quite clearly.

"Therefore, CORRECTLY stating that Israel is currently lobbying many members of our government and news outlet is lumped in with the lies of the Protocols."

Sigh.

Walt and Mearsheimer went far, far beyond simply stating that Israel (like many governments, including the Palestinians and especially Hamas through front groups like CAIR) has lobbying efforts towards US policy. They went wholly into the line of the usual Protocols-level "why the Evil Joos Control The World" bullshit that is the hallmark of anti-semites.

 

JORDANC

6:50 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Seriously?

I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt this whole debate but you just keep reverting to the same tired name calling. You seriously are a bigot but the terrifying thing is, you don't think you are. You think you're a wise, all-seeing seer who truly understands the conflict while all these other people are out to get you and are nothing but a bunch of imbeciles. Man, get off your goddamn tower and enter the real world. The VAST, VAST, VAST majority of people in the Western world aren't against the Jews in the slightest bit. You just need to relax man. Goddamn.

 

ITGURU42

9:29 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Seriously

You are either one of the most dishonest people it has ever been my misfortune to encounter, or a simple raving lunatic.

"Bigot"? Moi? Furthest thing from it, I assure you. I am very simple, and this may be a concept you are incapable of conceiving, quite capable of telling the truth as it is - in other words, "calling a spade a spade."

I carry an understanding of the conflict, a result of long study and hard research into the matter. You, meanwhile, have proven you have absolutely no understanding at all of the conflict. How many times have I pointed something out to which you have no answer except to accuse me of "namecalling"? How many times have I pointed out the precise, relevant passages from the Geneva Conventions, for instance?

You are a sad, deluded, idiot. I begin to wonder if you are even capable of education

"The VAST, VAST, VAST majority of people in the Western world aren't against the Jews in the slightest bit."

Sadly, Jimmah Cardigan the senile old anti-semite, and the vast, vast majority of personages under the geopolitical regime of Islam, have been brainwashed into believing that "the Jews" are an evil force.

For instance: April 25, 2001. Egyptian national newspaper Al-Akhbar: "Thanks to Hitler, of blessed memory, who on behalf of the Palestinians, revenged in advance, against the most vile criminals on the face of the earth. Although we do have a complaint against him for his revenge on them was not enough."

This was not an "isolated" incident: this was the official state newspaper of the Egyptian government.

As for the rest of the Israeli-Palestine conflict, you should do some research on the PLO and Hamas's overarching strategy. They call it, these days, the "two-phase plan." It has something to do with why every "palestinian" flag is a picture of the entire region, with the nation of Israel curiously missing...

 

DRAKEGUY

3:37 PM ET

February 24, 2010

J. Carter

Can't J.C just go away? I am 60 years old & he was by far the worse president of my lifetime. I went to the J.C. library a few years back and was reminded of his total incompetence. He should thank Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford for putting him in the White House. Nixon was obviously a bad guy and Ford was a terrible candidate-a guy that probably would have been happy being a Congressman from Michigan. Carter had to be the most naive person ever to occupy the Oval Office.

 

BOREALIS

4:04 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Carter doesn't want to be compared to Obama

The statement the President Carter doesn't even want to be compared to President Obama says a lot.

 

BOB ROYFILLS

4:23 PM ET

February 24, 2010

side from that, Mr.Carter, how did you like the play?

This column is absurd because its premise--that Mr. Carter is in a position to object when accused of weakness--is nonsensical. His period in office marked the high tide of Soviet influence and, accordingly, the nadir of the Cold War, with Afghanistan invaded and Nicaragua becoming Sandinista. Mr. Carter's response, as I recall, was to boycott the Moscow Olympics, cut the defense budget, denounce our "inordinate fear of Communism and acquiesce in the Brezhnev Doctrine, that socialism could expand or consolidate but could never retreat.

I think that qualifies as weak. and incoherent, and in fact it puts Mr. Carter at the Buchanan level of Presidential incompetence. On the other hand, Mr. Carter's successor not merely enunciated the correct (Reagan) doctrine--that socialism was rotten to the core and should be rolled back whenever possible--but acted on it. As we all know, socialism was buried within a decade. Quite the contrast.

 

NSC LONDON

4:28 PM ET

February 24, 2010

ITGURU, I think you are

ITGURU, I think you are really hurting your own cause. You come off like a complete fanatic and are managing to alienate mainstream Israel supporters (like myself). I think you should consider how your actions harm or help your cause.

 

NSC LONDON

4:37 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Reading your response to Mike

Reading your response to Mike from Sacremento I agree with most of what you've written. CAIR=HAMAS? So true. Liberation of Palestine=code for destruction of Israel? Right again. That said, I still wouldn't want to be associated with you, though the content of your arguments is often sound your emotional delivery and hair trigger tendency to freak out at the slightest disagreement is off putting to say the least.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

7:42 PM ET

March 6, 2010

Crime against humanity

NSC LONDON Establishing a homeland for the Jews = Destruction of Palestine. Get your code words right.

 

ITGURU42

5:02 PM ET

February 24, 2010

NSC London, really?

So you'll happily pal around with "Mike Sacramento" and his Stormfront buddies, eh?

Carter has uttered every shibboleth Mike and his buddies ask for - the call against "zionism", "liberation of palestine", "legitimate aspirations of the palestinian people" (What are those precisely? Why is the phrase always used by Hamas when talking about the elimination of Israel?), and the age-old demonization routine about "apartheid", which is completely dishonest but pops up time and again - the analogy being that since the Apartheid regime was unjustified and illegitimate, the legitimate State of Israel ought to be destroyed as well.

Yes, I'll say it. Carter calling the situation between Israel and the "palestinians" an "apartheid" is, in no uncertain terms, that senile old anti-semite's code call for the destruction of Israel.

Politics makes for odd bedfellows, that is certain. In 1937, it put the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - the same guy who was on the radio for months telling Palestinians to leave the partition areas so that the "glorious warriors" could come, exterminate the jews, and take the spoils for the "Ummah" - in Germany asking how his "people" could help Hitler's holy quest to exterminate the Jews. Hitler, despite the Muslims being no friends of his, went with it.

Today, in the name of "anti-zionism" or "palestinian solidarity" or "human rights", groups like Amnesty International cheerfully sell their souls, supporting violent mass murderers and genocidal freaks rather than true "prisoners of conscience" as their charter should require. They ally themselves with organizations who put bombs in baby carriages or teenagers' backpacks. And they equally ally themselves with skinheads, neo-nazis, black panthers, "nation of Islam", racial supremacists of all color and creed who seem to find that, as long as they have a "common enemy" of Jews to fight, their own little turf wars can wait.

It is amazingly unique to find Ibrahim Hooper, David Duke, Robert "KKK" Byrd, Louis Farrakhan, Jimmah Cardigan and their associated organizations on the same side of anything, but apparently their raw hatred of a "common enemy" is able to overcome their otherwise mutually-destructive differences in this instance.

 

KALAMERE

6:53 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Worst Foreign Policy in History of the United States.

Together these two came up with the most destructive and ineffective foreign policy in US History. Carter personally accomplished nothing but ended up getting two very brave LEADERS assasinated. Carter was inept and followed terrible advice from Brzezinski. Once the enemies of the United States understand we are being led by a weak sister like Carter or Obama, they will push as far as they can. Liberals never learn from their mistakes, they give awards for them.

The weakness of Carter and Obama is parallel in more than foreign policy, the domestic front is suffering from the same lack of ability. When people think they are smarter than God and the proven history of the United States, they fail miserably. Having survived the Carter years I'm not looking forward to the next three years. They are both in love with themselves at everyone elses expense. They make Neville Chamberlain look like Godzlla in comparison.

As for the anti-Semitism, the man who actually ran Carter's library had to come out and distance himself from the man. He "apologized" because he knew what he had done was ruining it for his grandson, but too late.

 

BILLH

7:33 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Bitter and Bicker

No president with any legacy to stand on needs to write such enormously long winded and meandering defenses. Either he lets his record stand on its own, or his defenders should come in rushing to the fore. Esto Vir.

This piece was mind-numbingly contrived and overly defensive. It's like Rodney Dangerfield in words.

Please retire. You're doing no service to our Country or to yourself.

Bicker and Bitter.

Why is it that Republicans can seem to retire with dignity. Ford, Reagan, Quale, Bush, Bush, and even Cheney....vs Carter, Clinton, Gore.

The comments above provide even more humiliation.

Enough, public self-flagellation.

 

JORDANC

7:39 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Cheney?

I agree with most of those Republicans retiring with dignity but not so much with Cheney. He's kind of an ass.

 

JOHNDAVIS

8:14 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Poor poor Jimmy

How pathetic is it that a former President has to constantly try to prop himself up as if he somehow wants us to forget that he was a total failure as President?

 

BALDWIN

8:21 PM ET

February 24, 2010

carter

Thanks Jimmy amongst all of your other "accomplishments", I forgot all about Rhodesia. I am sure Mugabe thanks you. Maybe he will give you a billion dollar bill.

 

WASHINGTON REPORT

8:53 PM ET

February 24, 2010

National Embarassment

The two of you must be given credit for the amount of hubris shown during your administration and your retirement.

Was it not enough to embarass the country for four long years that you both cannot just go away? Must you continue to demonstrate incompetence?

When you were booted to the curb, we had high unemployment, high interest rates, and a demoralized military that was barely able to function.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, you consistently gave Jimmy bad advice and played a key role in the situation in Iran.

The fact you continue to haunt your daughters career by showing your face on 'Morning Joe' is doing more harm than good. She is a beautiful yong lady, quit hanging over her like a dark rain cloud.

Jimmy & Zbigniew, we wish you no ill will. Enjoy your retirement and leave the world politcal scene to those who are still relevant.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

10:34 PM ET

February 24, 2010

Isreal's impending demise

ITGURU's desperation tactics, throwing every sentence in the zealots hasbara cookbook, does not change the course of history. The demographics of "Israel" are the "writing on the wall" that foretell Israel "has feet of clay" Even the most ardent zealots acknowledge Israel has no future as a state, and the "Koenig memoranda" tactics only delay the inevitable while leaving a wreckage of more crimes against humanity in its wake.

 

ITGURU42

7:49 AM ET

February 25, 2010

Reading this response

do we really need to doubt that "Mike Sacramento" and the rest are just a bunch of Stormfront-style/Hamas-style neo-nazi types trying to use "criticism of Israel" as cover for their outright anti-semitism?

Let's see... code word code word insult code word insult code word insult "crime against humanity" yadda yadda yadda... "Mike Sacramento", your little blip was better in the original Arabic. At least then it had a semblance of tempo and could possibly have been adapted to a poem.

 

DAVIDGREENFUTUREDOC

4:13 PM ET

February 25, 2010

Miguel Sacramento

Mike Sactown for Prez! Keep it coming, brother. ITGURU may be a guru, but he's no (political) pundit. As Akiva Orr has written, this kind of hysterical defensiveness are like the wails of a cat in its dying throes.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

12:36 PM ET

February 25, 2010

Confirmation that Israelis attack Carter

ITGURU42 I began my statements, saying the criticism of Carter is coming from Israelis, and quasi-Israelis, angered that Carter "reversed their aspirations of Eretz Israel/Greater Israel" By participating in the Sinia being returned to Egypt. ITGURU42 you have taken up the baton, used every single zealots cookbook phrase, to attack Carter and us Americans, from the Israel podium. ITGURU42 you have singledhandedly proved my assertions, RIGHT. Thank you. ITGURU42 since youre an Israeli, and a zealot, and dont like America and ex president Carter an American president, you can move to Israel, they will pay you to make aaliya. ITGURU42 concern yourself with Israeli politics and stay out of American politics.

 

ITGURU42

6:03 PM ET

February 25, 2010

Ahhh...

now I see where you, your clone, and "Davidfuturedoctor" came from.

Stormfront linked here right before you all showed up. So I know.

Go back to butt-fucking your Stormfront neo-nazi buddies.

 

DAVIDGREENFUTUREDOC

4:06 PM ET

February 25, 2010

Confirmation that Israel Harvested Organs

Dr. Yehuda Hiss, head of Israel's national forensic institute, admitted to Channel 2 in Israel that pathologists routinely harvested organs from Palestinians murdered by Israel's neo-fascist army.

This has nothing to do with the op-ed piece in a Swedish newspaper in August 2009. This was part of a documentary aired on Israeli TV in December 2009.

I recommend, ITGURU42, that you get your facts straight. I know you're old (nearly 68), but surely even you, a rabid supporter of Israel's fascist apartheid regime, can understand basic English.

It is interesting that anyone providing supporting evidence of Israel's merciless disregard for international law and human rights is immediately deemed "dishonorable, racist, bigoted, anti-semitic pile of rectal rejection."

Sir, your ignorance and hatred are breathtaking.

 

ITGURU42

6:02 PM ET

February 25, 2010

Davidgreenfascistturd

Yawn.

Lying yet again?

The Israeli TV report you point to says NOTHING OF THE SORT. It is about the same report from earlier, when a single hospital was harvesting organs indiscriminately from any body in the morgue. They didn't give two shits where the body came from.

Your lies are self-evident, and your anti-semitism twice so. It's interesting that you are so guided by evil that you will take anything you can find to try to stamp the label of "Evil Jews" on it, even when the facts are in 100% contradiction to what you are trying to make them say.

Go back to butt-fucking your Stormfront neo-nazi friends.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

3:25 PM ET

February 26, 2010

Israeli Dr Mengele admitted harvesting Palestinian organs

DAVIDGREENFUTUREDOC I saw Israeli Dr. Yehuda Mengele Hiss's admission on the news. You are correct, Israel admits the allegation of the Swedish reporter is a fact.

 

VOLLEYBALLJERRY

1:30 AM ET

February 26, 2010

Is this the same Jimmy Carter from the 70's?

This president was so forgettable that I actually for a moment couldn't remember who it was. It was, like, remembering Bill Buckner. Hey wasn't that the guy in Game 6 of the 1986 World Series... For Carter, 'weren't you they guy who had no clue what to do with the Ayatollah for 444 days of the hostage crisis?'

How old is this guy - 90?

 

NSC LONDON

9:29 AM ET

February 26, 2010

BFDMidWhiltshire

Sorry, I overlooked your thoughtful reply to me above (this confusing layout befuddles the technologically inept among us - namely me). I think I probably did have you wrong as I'm at a loss to find anything I disagree with in the rebuttal.

I guess the outstanding issue is whether the ceding of land by Israel would actually aid this situation at all, or simply be read as a moment of weakness by Palestine to be exploited further.

 

NSC LONDON

9:34 AM ET

February 26, 2010

ITGURU, maybe you need a girlfriend?

I know it's very difficult for you to follow along given the scope and intensity of your insanity, but if you insist on commenting, please do try to make an effort to stay with us.

Accusing me of siding with "storm troopers" is as hysterical and absurd as accusing these people of being "storm troopers" in the first place. Then you go on to assume I'm some kind of closeted JC supporter, which is highly amusing.

The rest of your post is little more than a rambling assortment of interesting but irrelevant facts.

You are truly, truly damaging your own cause, I hope you know that mate.

 

MIKE SACRAMENTO

10:34 PM ET

February 28, 2010

911 engineered in Israel

Israel clearly is the cause of the 911 terrorist attack. Whether you believe a group of dancing Mossad people in a rented van were the cause, or, if you believe that Arabs enraged by Israel's criminal conduct seeking retribution was the cause. Either way the finger points to Israel.

 

ITGURU42

11:29 PM ET

February 28, 2010

Insane much?

Please, whatever you're smoking, it has undoubtedly destroyed your previously feeble mind.

 

BLAMMO_MAN

2:19 PM ET

March 2, 2010

Jimmy Carter - The Legend

I find it amazing that the worst president in my lifetime - Jimmy Carter - has the temerity to continue to pat himself on the back for his make believe accomplishments. Perhaps his ego has made a comeback after being voted out of office after only one term with the Nobel Peace Prize. Get a clue: They gave it to Gore. They gave it to Obama. Perhaps the Prize means nothing - just like your presidency.

That he has the temerity to comment on current and former sitting presidents is laughable in its absurdity. Write us another book, reauthor the broken legacy of your administration. Maintain the legend in your own mind.