Violent insurgency -- especially against democratic nations -- might give insurgents the appearance of victory, however the only real and lasting political change in our world over the last century has come from peaceful means, not Jihad.

South Africa, the Soviet Union, the American South, India. Democracy came to those places from reason and humane interaction and peaceful resistance to oppression.

Real progress in this world has never simply come from the barrel of a gun.

I'm sure Al Qaeda would be amenable to a cordial exchange of ideas. Healthy debate would definitely divert them off a path they believe has been set before them by god. I bet that would work with a group that prefers to use violence against civilian populations.

J Thomas i think Change here meant transformation to a better state. What do you think would in this case (by armed rebellion) ? Their values are twisted and these people would exist in states like sudan and burma if people don't intervene now. Any holy book can not feed people. Later these same people will export their miseries to the world and blame us for not intervening at the right time. So either way you are wrong

Was 9/11 an 'idea'?

The stated goal of Al Q's 'jihad' is the eviction of the apostates from leadership in the middle east; secondarily he wants the US out of all arab states a la Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden never made liberation of palestine or Kasmir or Chechnya part of his mandate, and this is clear from the original documents put together by Zawahiri's muslim brotherhood and Bin Laden's crew. His later inclusion of these issues into his raison d'etre was completely self serving, since he had started a global conflict and wanted to expand the stakeholders.

Al Qaeda, in short, has few to no 'ideas'. They have never engaged in a civic debate of any kind. They are absolutists who believe that suicide missions that kill civilians are OK so long as they serve their political propoganda objectives. India, Russia, and the US have little to do with them at all, in truth, and would never have taken any interest in their local conflicts with Egypt (Muslim Brotherhood) and Saudi Arabian leadership (which is the true source of their militancy) had they never attacked the US or other allied countries a la Kenya.

Their goal is to end both the rule of Egypt by corrupt repressive politicos, and Saudi Arabia by corrupt rich aristocrats. The US, the 'far enemy', was simply a convenient target to gain traction... Never has Russian, US, or Indian policy been the prime issue for Al Q. It's always been liberation of the arab nations from apostates and to restore a caliphate. If this is what you mean by "ideas" to respond to... well, I'm sorry, but it's batshit crazy, and based in a medieval concept of sovereignty and nationhood, where individual rights are determined by scripture and rule is by clerics and scholars.

If you claim that liberal western democracy and free-enterprise economics has no 'response' to this insanity, I would counter it certainly does; international condemnation and rejection by the vast community of fellow muslims. No one is cheerleading their insanity - except perhaps a few starry-eyed 'true believers', who without something insane to adhere to would have no function at all in society. Eric Hoffer already wrote the book, I suggest you read it.

Haha, yeah I noticed that. Looks like the proofreader just went with the more common names.

No, Peter Gross is a guy who went to my high school and then became an actor and did a bunch of commercials for Sonic cheeseburgers not so long ago.

Also, Thomas Ricks' high school, coincidentally.

And all your worldly woes would be over and we won't be inflicted by you parroting the same post over and over again. Very annoying.

Everybody knows that the Americans, Saudis and the Pakistanis collectively groomed the Taliban just like India supported and armed the Tamil Tigers and American armed Saddam (and Iran at the same time) during the 1980s.

There was much more foreign involvement in Afganistan than you mention. Please read any decent history book.

The US did not create the Taliban, they were a domestic movement which went on to recieve significant pakistani support

The idea that the American strategy is based solely on bullets and body counts is becoming tiresome. At some point people need to recognize the fact that kinetic operations are actually a small part of the Afghanistan campaign. Far more of it is based in community projects and support to Afghan government. The violence is what gets the media attention while the efforts that matter like rebuilding communities and providing medical aid get very little attention. Time spent in Afghanistan will reveal that it is not quite the hopeless situation people make it out to be.

The US Army put out a manual on counter insurgency. It was designed with Afghanistan in mind based on lessons learned in the past few years. Also Gen. Stanley McChrystal has recommended books by Greg Mortenson and David Kilcullen as guides on how to prosecute the Afghan Campaign.

Finaly Qila what exactly is your definition of victory in these theatres?
Is it an Oppressive totalarian state like they were before?

Nine years of American Occupation of Afghanistan has produced nil positive results.

All the tired stories about community projects are just stories to fool the few fools who are willing to believe them. America has built NOTHING in Afghanistan. America has only destroyed what was not destroyed in the preceding 30 years.
US Army’s counter insurgency manual is just another lame attempt to educate the ill-educated Americans and nothing more. It’s just paper with ink in the hands of simpletons.

Mortenson has good ideas and has proved these ideas with his many schools in Pakistan. But, American army has only achieved failing marks in Afghanistan regarding this. Why can’t the American army with its billion fold more resources have billion fold better results then Mortenson? Probably because the American army still only knows bullets and bombs and certainly not books.

My definition of victory is similar to Mortenson’s: tens of thousands of schools educating the Afghan children from 5 to 25 years, along with internet kiosks to bring the 21st century to these people and of course attached health clinics.

All else is just doublespeak and group think.

I think you may have a skewed perspective of what is actually going on in Afghanistan. A shift in strategy has been under way. It is a slow process and results will not be immediately apparent to all. However some of the more visible results are high level Taliban members coming out and worling towards reconciliation. More tribal leaders are openly rejecting the Taliban and embracing the Government of Afghanistan. This idea that nothing is being accomplished comes from people who are to shortsighted to see beyond instant victory.

Pentagon Tool - Continue spinning your yarn and silly tales.

I see all and I know all sans the spin.

Pack your bags and get back to your straying wife in West Virginia or Michigan.

""Pentagon Tool - Continue spinning your yarn and silly tales
Pentagon Tool - Continue spinning your yarn and silly tales.
I see all and I know all sans the spin.
Pack your bags and get back to your straying wife in West Virginia or Michigan.""

Clearly this is a diplomatic mind capable of very nuanced thinking, able to negotiate complex problems by understanding the issues of all involved and maintaining an independent frame of mind.

Or, rather, just another idiotic troll.

There is nothing nuanced about Pashtunwali honour code. Its very black and white.

Just the badal/revenge of aspect is simply this: you kill one of mine, and I will kill one of yours, and this tit for tat killing may go on for several generations.

One generation is defined as 33 years, so several generations is a simple multiplication.

America has in its ignorant arrogance plopped in the midst of the Pashtunwali's badal/revenge cycle.

Now, do you see any nuanced bit about it.

Learn a little bit about the world. It is slightly different than what was in your muliple choice test.

The war shifted in that direction about a year ago. DOD has developed messages and talking points that site verses from the Koran to show that many of the actions take by extremists are against god. However that will only be effective against fringe members of AQ or the Taliban.

Heck, most Americans can't even teach Christianity to themselves and their DoD wants to be the new village mullah? Laughable.

DOD has enlisted the help of Imams from the US, Pakistan, and Afghanistan to tailor this approach.

:)

Not sure if Lal Qila believes he has made an insightful argument or not.

The facts show that in order to achieve peace in country that has been destroyed by violence by both internal (Tribal fueds, Local Warlords) and external forces (US, Russia, Pakistan, Al Qaeda, Taliban), this country must have security. In order to do that the NATO forces that are there have to use kinetic operations (bullets, bombs and Boots). As I have said before these operations must be done in conjuction with aid and community projects. With out these projects will fail. Should NATO leave there will be another internal civil war much like occured before the Taliban came to power. I'm sure that no one other than AQ, TB and PK wish to have an unstable Afghanistan. The Taliban would regain power and be able to enforc Shuria lawa again which is oppressive to the point of human rights violations. PK would continue to have strategic depth in a lawless country should the PK/India conflict flair up again. They would also be able to continue to exploit the Afghan people. Finaly Al Qaeda would have its preferred safe haven.

Pentagon Tool, you have already lost so says your latest report - real change remains elusive and political will, in particular, remains doubtful:

"In its 152-page report, released ahead of President Karzai's upcoming visit to Washington, the Pentagon said: "While Afghanistan has achieved some progress on anti-corruption... real change remains elusive and political will, in particular, remains doubtful."

It said people support President Karzai's government in only 29 of the 121 Afghan districts considered most strategically important in the war effort."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8650625.stm

Nice, a spam message with an undoubtedly dangerous link in that 'Delivery Driver Jobs' that manages to almost sound like a real person (albeit a poor writer).

It is a good day for shining the shoes and its a good day for not paying your bills.