Veil or Prison?

A look at the burqa that has Europe in a political uproar.

MAY 11, 2010

Afghan widows line up to receive rations at a food distribution center in Kabul on Jan. 4.

SHAH MARAI/AFP/Getty Images

 
 

NAZIA

7:06 AM ET

May 12, 2010

none of your business

Who told you that veil is like a prison?
It is part of Islamic and other orthodox cultures and women use to of this feel very comfortable with covered faces or you can say it is essential part of their life styles.
If some how your culture and media create veil phobia like that then it means that US think to bombard the whole nation as they are doing in Afghanistan.
Think like that if Taliban become super power in coming years and they would start criticizing your nude beaches and legal prostitution dens and to end this they bomb whole beaches by considering them as humiliation of mankind like that then how would you feel if that would happen.
Surely it would retaliate you people as it is attack on your culture and living style.
In Saudi for last 1400 years women are strictly under black cloak from head to toe even in 50 C extreme temperature.They are not allowed to vote, moving alone or even permitted for driving vehicle,Why you people officially not challenged Saudis for all this.
Or even have courage to cut all diplomacy ties with them for confining women like that.
but I am sure you people love the culture of rich Muslims no matter how brutal way of rule exists in their land.

 

SMCI60652

5:19 PM ET

May 12, 2010

false

"In Saudi for last 1400 years women are strictly under black cloak from head to toe even in 50 C extreme temperature."

That's patently false because 'Saudi' Arabia didn't exists till about 200 years ago.

Nor was their Wahhabist school, which calls for a head-to-toe jilbab with the niqab, practiced anywhere outside of the Najd.

Which is all a moot point anyway, since most Americans, I believe, think that it's a woman's right to wear whatever her conscience dictates. Their point is to preserve the right of choice.

Many European nations are aiming to take away the right of choice of people in something relatively minute, in the name of their latest outburst of bigotry.

 

NOORAH

9:46 PM ET

May 12, 2010

veils and burgas subjugate the women

Veils and burgas keep women down like slaves to the men. I do not if I wear covering, but that is me. It is more important to allow the choice and not be forced to cover. It is important to teach our young daughters that there was once a time that women ruled in their own civilizations like Cleopatra and Queen Sheba and Hatshupta. The aggressive men came and conquer the women and shaved her head to humiliate her and in other cultures the men continued to keep women down by killing the daughters. That's when Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said no more child killing. But the women today, forget that time immemorable that women were intelligent, courageous, spiritual, warriors, and more. It is the men of different cultures and countries that what to keep us down so they can control us and our daughters. We as women must smarten up and practice ijtihad (independent thinking) and stop the culture of men putting us down.

When you say prostitution, you forget that it exists in all countries even the countries that wear the burga. Those bad men abuse the girls and blame the girls when it is their lack of control. If you want to be ignorant on ancient history, that is your choice; but please do not speak for all women. Shokrun/thank you.

 

SEBASTIAN

12:05 PM ET

May 13, 2010

hypocrisy

You make some valid points (and some that are just plain anger). But I need to ask you if you would defend a woman on the streets of Kabul who was wearing a mini-skirt and a tight blouse. I think not. And if I am right I submit to you that you cannot have it both ways. Perhaps you should join up with your "sisters," veiled or mini-skirted, and fight the male/religious oppression that forces you to look like a cheap Barbie-doll or a bag of laundry and makes you believe that you are actually exercising a free choice.

 

SQUEEDLE

3:04 PM ET

May 13, 2010

I would ask Nazia if doing it

I would ask Nazia if doing it to "feel comfortable" is because a woman who did not wear it would suffer verbal abuse, jail or even rape. Yes, it's more comfortable to just do what men with guns and fists tell you to do. It's more comfortable to just do what everyone else does, and not be made fun of, shunned or abused. How many women kept the burqa once the Taliban were driven out of their area? Did they put it back on when the Taliban came back? If so, that should tell you something - they don't want to wear it.

Why is it these women are expected to hide the fact that they are an individual human being, God's creation? This is an extreme, male interpretation of Islam, one by men who do not respect women, who do not want to see women, who blame women for their own failure to control themselves. Islam does not require women to wear the veil, and definitely does not require the burqa. There are lots of Muslim women who respect themselves and are not afraid to show their faces in public, and show that they are a human being too, not just some lump moving around under a cloth. I see them every day here in the US; they are not afraid to be a woman in public.

 

JOHNALLEN14

4:18 AM ET

May 14, 2010

As long as women are allowed

As long as women are allowed choice then I don't think there is any problem. It's when women seemingly feel that they have to where a veil - or do so in a situation that isn't appropriate. For example, should teachers be allowed to wear veils? Personally, I wouldn't want my daughter being taught by someone with a veil. It doesn't allow any facial interaction and teaches a sense of isolation for women. There are some valid points here though and I think a full review is important.

 

LH18

8:32 PM ET

May 15, 2010

The burqa is the denial of

The burqa is the denial of choice...it is the denial of the individual in cultures that have politicized the Islamic religion. Furthermore, challenging the existence of or banning the burqa isn't a denial of muslim rights or of Islam; rather, it is the denoucement of the subjugation of women and the denial of women's rights under political Islam. It is also a cultural stand against those who would use religion as an excuse to limit freedom, limit choice and impose their will on the majority. Free societies do not and cannot tolerate such behavior.

 

RISHI

3:46 PM ET

May 18, 2010

veil or prison

Nazia if the burka is s comfortable why have the men not worn them?

 

LAL QILA

9:47 AM ET

May 12, 2010

Muslims with oil good, poor Muslims bad

Muslims with oil and money are white and good; poor brown Muslims are so very very bad.

Let's continue daily mudslinging against Muslims everyday whilst not touching the weird customs of Jews, Christians, and the newly whitened, the Hindoos.

 

NORBOOSE

3:53 PM ET

May 12, 2010

Dont go for the Racism against Americans

We got one American here, whose name is Arvay (Either an Indian first name or Central-European last name) We got another American here who is a proud miscegenist. When you go for 50 year old black nationalist literature, youre getting desperate. Look it up, Arabs are a caucasian people. You hear that? Arabs are just tan honkys! You are a tan honky attacking Indians for their whiteness. Think about that.

 

LAL QILA

8:40 PM ET

May 12, 2010

Norboose: I understand race and class very clearly

I know the definitions of white and brown cacusoids, negroids and mongoloids.

The newly whitened Hindoos, in this context, implies their recent joining hands with the Jews and the Europeans/Americans who have long lambasted Muslims, thats all.

Incidentally, northern Indians are brown skinned cacusoids too except for the Dravidians in the South.

 

NORBOOSE

12:05 PM ET

May 13, 2010

Whiteness is an archaic concept

The US is increasingly illogical to call a strictly white country. Chinas not white. Russia wasnt considered white by old standards. The Pacific Rim is one of the top economic powerhouses. Europe is a B power. Youre trying to fit things into a ridiculously archaic view of the world.

 

TOMMYT

4:35 PM ET

May 12, 2010

point

what is this photo journal trying to prove. every picture is in Afghanistan and does not address the uproar in Europe at all!

As to all the Americans commenting on this page whilst sitting in their white towers claiming europeans are 'smug euro bastards'. think for a moment that hundreds of years of constant culture and openness in Europe is perceived to be under threat because of the Burqa's. People feel they are losing there traditions and allowing burqa's is furthering this.

America to my knowledge is predominately a nation made up of immigrants and many different cultures and perhaps more tolerant . when you have lived in europe for the majority of your life, then you can comment on how smug we are.

 

SMCI60652

5:10 PM ET

May 12, 2010

pointless

that's no excuse.

There are a lot of evils historically that had a grip on large numbers of Europe's cultures (i.e. facism, anti-Semitism, social darwinism, etc.), but that doesn't mean that more enlightened succeeding generations of Europeans didn't see the stupidity in them.

All we Americans are saying is that this undue symbolic significance you've given the burqa, as a rallying cry for all the bigoted, racist, far-right ideologues in your countries, is something that has no place in the 21st century.

I think our President summed it up pretty nicely in Cairo: "We cannot disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretense of liberalism."

 

LAL QILA

8:33 PM ET

May 12, 2010

Excellent

.

 

NORBOOSE

12:14 PM ET

May 13, 2010

Why I make fun of the Euros

The Euros have a strange standing in my mind. I dont really "make fun" of the Chinese or Russians, because I respect them as opponents. I dont "make fun" of third world problems, because those problems could be solved by modernization. I dont "make fun" of Japan, or India, because they are useful allies. It appears that Europe is a liability to the US. Its not an enemy, and it has no interest in fixing its problems, and it has become more and more an inconvenience to the US. That "lazy dependent" status is why I speak of you Euros in such terms. Its the only way to express such exasperated frustration. Dont take it too seriously... or do... I really dont care.

 

LUCKYTRADER

9:30 AM ET

May 13, 2010

Even despite being in there

Even despite being in there for such a long time there's not much change... I wonder if it will ever change.
Do they even know what stock markets are?

cfd and spread betting difference.

 

NYGDAN

7:50 PM ET

May 13, 2010

Right to Veil, etc

I think that the big difference between the US and Euro movements to ban burqas (and recall that some euros have been banning minarets too) is that the French attempt to ban the burqa is supposedly based on 'liberty, egality, fraternit', etc; that is, on a policy super-secularism. Whereas in the US a State Church is prohibited, in France Public Religion is (practically) prohibited. And so Jews and Christians can't wear stars of david and crosses, and Muslims can't wear veils and burqas.
In the US, I think that a burqa ban would have to come in the form of a ban against having the face covered in public. You can't walk into a bank with a mask over your face, and the burqa/veil etc would qualify as that. But in the US it isn't seen as much of a problem. I've seen some 'salafi ninja' type chicks running around, but, I mean, honestly, who can think anything other than, hmm, wonder whats under there?
And as pointed out, outlawing it makes using it a form of resistance/protest, so more people, not less, will probably wear it.

 

SMCI60652

11:32 AM ET

May 17, 2010

right

Now THAT's a genuine issue.

I remember a few years ago a woman who chose to veil her face was trying to get a license in Florida and it raised this question.

To me, those are legitimate concerns about every day security. And they should be openly debated in a free and pluralistic society.

How do we resolve our consititutional committment to individual liberty and conscience, with the needs of public security?

Unfortunately, that's NOT what the debate in France is about. And sadly those advocating for the ban on these things are anything BUT liberals. They are more akin to secular fascists of the Kemalist stripe.

 

IAN

1:23 PM ET

May 17, 2010

I can't comment on yes or no

Its hard to say. I believe outlawing burqas entirely is not a good thing. However, how many women in Islam enjoy wearing them? I think you would be hard-pressed to get an accurate answer to that.

As for the pictures, very well taken. I liked 2, 4, 10 and 13 the best.

Also, in picture 10, ya she's wearing a burqa, but she's also wearing high heels! How awesome is that?!

Just goes to show the outside is not always whats inside.

 

ALI D

2:18 PM ET

May 17, 2010

Wearing of Face Coverings in Western Societies

As with all controversies involving individual freedom, there are two ways of looking at this. Yes, it is an intrinsic part of a truly free society that people should have freedom of thought and action, but only tempered with the reservation that one person's freedom may be another person's oppression.

Apart from the security concerns involved in allowing people to disguise or conceal their identity, ones which can and already have been exploited by wanted criminals, there is also the cultural one of a western society. This is where deliberate concealment of a person's face for whatever reason may be viewed by the majority as disrespectful and intimidating in much the same way as naturists would view a fully-clothed person in their midst.

Finally, I wonder if the desire to cover the face simply because a woman feels some level of insecurity would be a cause for concern about her mental health somewhat akin to that of someone suffering from other body image worries which lead to conditions of eating disorders and extreme weight loss or gain.

Ali D
Jersey

 

AMERICA IS NUMBER 57

1:42 AM ET

May 18, 2010

Why move to the west?

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and I see it all. But what I don't understand is, why move to the USA if you don't want to become westernized? I passed a young teenage girl and her mother on a biking trail the other day and the girl was practicing her basketball moves, however difficult because she was wearing a face covering and had a ankle length dress, and I wondered WTF? Why move here if women are still denied their rights. Why don't you people from Allah land just be honest and say that you move here to make money but you have no intention of becoming Americanized. None whatsoever. Just stay in your country. Fine if you think having a vagina is evil and having sex with 11 year old girls is sanctioned by your religion, but why bring that nonsense to a country that opposes everything you believe? And now you want the JAMA to legalize a ceremonial cut on female clitoris to satisfy your religion? WTF! WTF? I don't understand you people. Stay in your own country. Demonize your own women, but for the love of GOD don't bring your backward ways to us. WE DON'T WANT THEM!

 

SMCI60652

9:05 AM ET

May 18, 2010

because it doesn't

"why bring that nonsense to a country that opposes everything you believe?"

The U.S. doesn't oppose everything they believe. Nor does the U.S. take its cues on what to respect and what to reject from random Americans in San Francisco.

If you want your arguments taken seriously, talk in the language of constitutionally guaranteed, inalienable rights, among which are certain parental rights. Where you draw the line and the logic of why that line is drawn there is debatable.

 

AMERICA IS NUMBER 57

1:27 PM ET

May 19, 2010

talk in the language of constitutionally guaranteed, inalienable

OK. Now is see how Beirut was destroyed. You rehearsed constitutionally guaranteed and inalienable rights over and over until they took you seriously. I hope America Doesn't fall for it.

 

WANT TO COMMENT

3:50 PM ET

May 23, 2010

Burqa photos

Volatile subject for many reasons. I do think it would be good to have a photo essay on the mormon girls and women living in the compound in Christoval, Texas as a counterpoint.

And I don't know if the christian sects that used to come for donations (begging?) in Midland during the Fifties still are around. The women had to wear dresses with long sleeves to their wrists and skirts to their ankles, no makeup.

Plus the nuns back then wore habits, which are burqas, really.

If one was female, one wore a hat to church. You didn't want to enter a religious area without one. Actually, if you were a proper lady from the 1600's on here in the western hemisphere, you wore your hat and gloves on nice occasions, period.

I also remember a conversation when a child as to whether it was ok to wear sleeveless dresses to church. Very important 9-year-old conversation then. My opinion as a adult, is what kind of religion has kids talking about what is correct in sexually modest behavior.

The Mennonites and Amish wear required dress; they always make for good photo essays.

Though I have to say every time I return from west Irving at lunch, my coworker has to listen to me say thank goodness I don't have to wear all that ugly covering. She is campaigning to keep me out of west Irving at lunch!!!! Just to keep me quiet!! She has a point.

It really is no one else's business if a religion chooses to require women to subjugate themselves to men. As far as I know, all the christian religions do, or at least it is expressed in their bibles. Women will submit to spousal abuse because the bible says you have to submit to your husband.

It is society's responsibility to enact laws to protect us from one another. Much as I hate covering of females, dressing them in fancied Victorian long dresses with rolls of hair bound upon their heads, it will go on.

I do object and think the law should take children away from families that make the young girls have sex with the old men, in "marriages" or not. I am thinking of Christoval and Utah.

Can the law protect those who ask to be hurt because of their religions?

 

BUFFY

8:15 AM ET

June 1, 2010

I think it is all a matter of

I think it is all a matter of freedom
if they want to wear it let them
if they are forced to weare it it is jast plane old and simple evil
if evil is causing pain to the inocent
and i think it is

 

ARJUNA

1:02 AM ET

June 7, 2010

For sure this ridiculous

The Europeans are turning what should be viewed as a bad joke in their societies into a vehicle for teenage rebellion and political protest. Why is it these women are expected to hide the fact that they are an individual human being, God's creation? This is an current political news extreme, male interpretation of Islam, one by men who do not respect women, who do not want to see women, who blame women for their own failure to control themselves.