Guilty Until Proven Guilty

The uproar over Israel's actions aboard a Gaza-bound vessel proves that the world holds the Jewish state to an impossibly high standard. For their own sake, Americans should think twice about joining this flood of international condemnation.

BY DAVID BROG | JUNE 9, 2010

On the evening of April 28, 2003, a crowd of approximately 200 Iraqi civilians gathered outside U.S. Army headquarters in Fallujah to protest the occupation of their city. As tension grew, U.S. soldiers from the 82nd Airborne stationed on the building's roof began firing upon the crowd, killing at least 13 Iraqis and wounding more than 70. U.S. troops insisted that they fired only to defend themselves from gunfire coming from the crowd. The protesters claimed that they were unarmed and never fired at the soldiers.

The odds are that you have never beaten your breast or searched your soul over this incident in Fallujah. In fact, you have likely never even heard of this incident. And the odds are that you have never heard of the tens if not hundreds of incidents like it, in which civilians have been killed as U.S. soldiers fought in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past decade.

But the odds are overwhelming that you have heard -- repeatedly -- of an Israeli operation last week aboard a Gaza-bound ship in the Mediterranean. Israel's naval commandos, several of whom were beaten to within an inch of their lives, responded with lethal force, killing nine people.

The term "double standard" does not sufficiently capture this phenomenon. It's not just that the Israelis are being held to a different -- and immeasurably higher -- standard than the rest of humanity. Israel is now being judged in the absence of any objective standard whatsoever. As Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said last week, it seems that Israel is now "guilty until proven guilty."

Sadly, it is no surprise to see angry mobs on the streets of Tehran or London calling for Jewish blood. It seems that we now must accustom ourselves to similar scenes playing out in Istanbul as well. Yet what is far more troubling is that we are now hearing these critiques being echoed right here in the United States. 

This is hardly the first time that my friends and neighbors have been strangely focused on Israel's alleged misdeeds. Many complained about the collateral damage in Gaza associated with Israel's 2009 Operation Cast Lead, intended to stop Hamas from firing thousands of missiles into its southern cities. Yet these same friends were completely unaware of the destruction wrought by America's armed forces in Fallujah less than two years after the April 2003 incident described above. The U.S. Army destroyed nearly one-fifth of the city -- and damaged far more -- in its effort to crush the insurgency that had taken root there.

Many of my friends are horrified by Israel's blockade of Hamas-controlled Gaza. Yet these same people never once questioned the United States' blockade of Saddam-controlled Iraq throughout most of the 1990s. They have no idea that America's enemies protested the U.S.-led blockade of Iraq in terms almost identical to those they now use to protest Israel's blockade of Gaza. In his 1996 fatwa declaring war on the United States, for example, Osama bin Laden claimed that "more than 600,000 Iraqi children have died due to lack of food and medicine and as a result of the unjustifiable aggression [sanctions] imposed on Iraq." In 1998, bin Laden again cited the blockade of Iraq and the "over 1 million" Iraqis the United States had killed there.

Constructive criticism is fine and welcome. We must always demand that the United States -- and its allies such as Israel -- adhere to the highest ethical standards in the fight against terror. We must ensure that every possible effort is made to avoid civilian casualties. The U.S. military must never cease to treasure every single innocent life.

Yet the attacks on Israel from most quarters -- and the United States' increasing impatience with Israel, even as it fights a similar battle, with similar tactics, against a similar enemy -- go well beyond such legitimate critiques. The American public and its government should be wary of joining this chorus of condemnation. Americans should understand by now that fighting enemies who shoot from civilian areas and hide behind human shields -- or sometimes masquerade as civilians -- will often require that soldiers make difficult choices, and will inevitably produce mistakes. To the extent that we in the West blur the line between those fighting terrorism and the terrorists themselves, we help legitimize a standard that will boomerang back on ourselves. It already has. 

Early last month we had a startling reminder of where this flawed logic can lead. On May 1, a crude car bomb was discovered in an SUV parked in the heart of Times Square. The police later identified the prime suspect as Faisal Shahzad, an American of Pakistani origin. In trying to figure out what had turned Shahzad from an upwardly mobile financial analyst into a would-be terrorist, commentators have focused on an email in which he complained about the killing of his fellow Muslims in Pakistan, Iraq, and Palestine and claimed, "The crusade has already started against Islam and Muslims with cartoons of our beloved Prophet." Elsewhere Shahzad noted a moderate Pakistani politician who had "bought into the Western jargon" of calling the Taliban and their allies "extremist."

The path toward terrorism begins with the erasure of moral lines. It starts with the equation of terrorists -- who seek to kill civilians -- with the armed forces who seek to stop the terrorists. It mistakes cartoons with corpses, collateral damage with intentional murder. It fails to distinguish between an errant missile and an intentional suicide bomb. It confuses the "extremists" with those who fight extremism.

As we Americans fight the war on terror, we must fight with our heads as well as our hearts. Americans must always demand the highest standards from their army and from those of allies such as Israel. But we should never validate the type of thinking that is the hallmark of the very enemies we pursue. Today Israel's soldiers are in the dock. But tomorrow it will be our own.

DAVID BUIMOVITCH/AFP/Getty Images

 

David Brog is executive director of Christians United for Israel and author of Standing with Israel: Why Christians Support the Jewish State.

ALARKA

8:09 PM ET

June 9, 2010

Fresh Take

That's a new one:
Realizing how morally indefensibe and politically self-defeating the Gaza blockade is, Mr. Brog is stressing that American policy is even more depraved and that we should therefore give Israel a break.
Much of the civilized world is well aware of the sheer criminality of the Iraq war and its conduct. Measuring Israel's political and military leadership by this is hardly an "impossibly high standard".
Ultimately, Mr. Brog's relativist argument is as repugnant as apologists of genocides worldwide reliably pointing out that Americans once decimated the Indians. Very Christian indeed, Mr. Brog.

 

FJCROW2008

1:41 PM ET

June 10, 2010

The author's friends - not a valid selection of USA

The author is apparently trying to typify the people of the USA by comparison to his/her friends saying things like:

"Many of my friends are horrified by Israel's blockade of Hamas-controlled Gaza. Yet these same people never once questioned the United States' blockade of Saddam-controlled Iraq throughout most of the 1990s. "

Plenty of people, myself including have ALWAYS questioned what we're doing in Iraq. Not just questioned, but complained... continually to no avail. It was a huge tiff here in the USA to even start the war. Ended by Bush declaring that he doesn't need congressional approval and was going to do it anyway.

Not all people in the US are brain dead. And no, forget about giving them a break. And if what we (the USA) are doing anywhere is a an excuse, then let's get it ALL out on the table and we'll complain about it all.

Read what Amnesty International has been saying about the treatment of the *people* (not militants or Hamas), women and children, for EVER!!! We could just stick to that and completely forget about the stupid flotilla thing. Yes, 9 people dead was not good, but what they are doing in Gaza is disgusting!

Stop trying to justify. No one civilized is calling for "Jewish Blood!" We are calling for humanity! Just stop doing the wrong thing and that will suffice!

The tangents, excuses and finger pointing used to deflect from this basic premise is sickening! THANK YOU ALARKA for your comments. SPOT ON!

-Frank

 

DANNY BLACK

3:17 PM ET

June 13, 2010

Care to name a country facing a terrorist threat

that reacted better than Israel? Have a look at how Turkey is treating Armenia at the moment for upsetting its allies. Or how they treat the Kurds - see if you can dig up any news about what they were doing to Kurds the same weekend this flotilla arrived.

Maybe we can look at how Spain dealt with ETA? Or Britain with the IRA? Or Russia with Chechens? Which country do you think managed to fight terror to your own elevated standards?

 

DANNY BLACK

3:22 PM ET

June 13, 2010

Frank, how many of your

Frank, how many of your colleagues were outraged when Saddam was killing tens of thousands of Kurds? Guessing zero. How about when he was destroyed the livelihood of the Marsh Arabs? Zero again? How many were outraged with how Saddam was starving his own people and denying them medical aid during sanctions? Zero again?

Amnesty International and other NGOs have been claiming that any minute now there is going to be a humanitarian disaster in Gaza for about 5 years. Still hasn't arrived because as usual it is Hamas propaganda parroted by AI because it's sponsors want to hear that. Same with HRW and others.

 

CHIM

9:01 PM ET

June 9, 2010

The path toward terrorism begins with the erasure of moral lines

You have made a compelling argument that both the United States and Israel are immoral nation-states acting in their own national interest to the detriment of human life.

Also, you have effectively linked the U.S.'s misguided "war on terror" with Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories, so is it no wonder folks around the world think they are in cahoots on a crusade?

Lastly, CUFI's singleminded, zealous defense of the military actions of the nation of Israel from a religious perspective of Zionism make it just as insidious and dangerous as Islamic groups who use their religious perspectives to justify fighting Zionists.

 

RAYNA CONWAY

12:46 AM ET

July 9, 2010

Gaza-bound Boats

In a gesture that has received more than a little attention in the Western media, Israeli officials announced with some fanfare that they were easing the embargo of goods they allow into Palestine. Israel’s supporters have been using the opportunity to declare that this demonstrates Israel is reasonable, and that US support of Israel is fully justified, even given the exceptionally tepid US response to the Israeli assault on the Gaza flotilla and America’s sustained opposition to any international efforts to hold Israel accountable for its actions. hemorrhoid relief This strategy of the collective punishment of a people — which is a breach of international law and a war crime, ladies and gentlemen of any legislatures and media outlets who have not checked their ethics into their respective Israeli embassies and consulates — is essentially designed to hurt Palestinians and not to protect Israelis. The Israelis understand this, as do their supporters overseas. hemorrhoid relief The Palestinians in Gaza, and many in the West Bank, certainly understand that — even Abbas may on those rare moments when thought works its way through the murkiness surrounding it. And so do those who try, often bravely but usually unsuccessfully, to bring some humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza.

 

EXAVIER126

9:09 PM ET

June 9, 2010

I am confused

What is Mr. Brog trying to argue here? That America's actions prevent us from condemning our allies when they take morally questionable actions?

Mentioning the Iraq blockade also doesn't seem like a good idea if he is trying to get support for Israeli policy, considering that most agree that the blockade actually helped Saddam's government consolidate power after the turmoil of the early 1990s, as goods had to go straight through the government, instead of through markets (legal or otherwise).

 

HAROLD HOLLINGSWORTH

9:51 PM ET

June 9, 2010

Israeli does not denote Jew

Sadly, it is no surprise to see angry mobs on the streets of Tehran or London calling for Jewish blood.

Either you are lying on purpose or you are too stupid to know the difference between an Israeli Zionist and a Jew. Israel's most ardent detractors understand this difference, because one of the key tenets of their opposition to Israel is based upon the disenfranchisement of Arab Israelis, be they Muslim, Christian or Jewish.

In any case, as a Christian, what do you think will happen to Jews when Christ returns to Earth?

 

MS. JONES

8:18 AM ET

June 10, 2010

What will happen

They will see that Jesus Christ was indeed the prophesied Messiah, a realization that millions of Jews, beginning with Peter, James, Matthew, Paul of Tarsus, Mary Magdalene etal, and continuing to this very day.

 

SARK

10:56 PM ET

June 9, 2010

You have dumb friends

Your friends are appalled by Israel's actions but approve of similar ones by the US? Well, try getting new friends, the one's you have are obviously idiots.

As posters have pointed out; using America's crimes to justify Israel's is not a winning strategy. Well, it might be here, if most people are as blinded by nationalism as the author. It's pretty obvious that his sub-textual reasoning is something along the lines of "We (the US) did this, and it wasn't that bad, obviously, because we would never do something that bad. Now, this thing Israel has done it similar in some ways to what we did. Therefore, what Israel did isn't that bad. QED."

What does it say about the state of Christianity when someone who is the author of Standing with Israel: Why Christians Support the Jewish State and executive director of Christians United for Israel writes something justifying and backward-rationalizing the crimes against humanity of two different countries?

 

MS. JONES

8:29 AM ET

June 10, 2010

I think you are missing the

I think you are missing the point, which is that Israel is held to a different standard than any other nation. The article compares the actions of Israel which were globally condemned to similar actions taken by the US and largely ignored. You and the other progressives have labeled military actions as "crimes against humanity", not the author, so your supposed reading of "sub-textual reasoning" is nothing but you runnning the authors words through the warped filter of your own world view. In other words, an exercise in make-believe. Liberals are always trying to impose their world view on others by claiming that plain speech is actually "code words" for something completely the opposite.

 

SARK

11:06 AM ET

June 10, 2010

False Premise

The actions of America WEREN'T largely ignored though. Most of the morally sane people of the world objected to our immoral and self-defeating blockade of Iraq.

I find it astonishing that not needlessly killing civilians and not punishing civilian populations for the actions of their government (through blockades) is considered an "impossibly high standard".

 

COMMENTATOR

2:02 AM ET

June 11, 2010

Collective punishment

Gazans voted for Hamas and are thus responsible for its actions. It is not some foreign power.

Rockets and suicide bombs murdering Israeli civilians, women and children are, being deliberately offensive, vastly more like collective punishment than Israel's defensive reaction, which went out of its way to avoid harming non-combatant civilians.

Hamas has murdered vastly more of their own people than those combatants killed by the Israelis. Arab moslems have a long history of murdering each other as well as Jews and Christians.

The Gaza blockade is valid under international law Ships announcing their intention to run a legal blockade may be boarded in international waters. Other nations do it all the time. Violent resistance to such boarding permits the boarding party to define itself. No one was killed in the six other ships that didn't resist the boarding.

If the Turks are so concerned about alleged occupation, let them first end their own occupation of half of Cyprus.

 

AL-URDUNI

11:05 PM ET

June 9, 2010

Israel is not America

First of all, Israel is not fighting a war with peace activists at sea, but US was and still is fighting a war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fix your logic. Second, The US is not occupying Iraq to build settlements or take land, while the rest of the world is mad because Israel is occupying not to defend itself but to steal land, resources, and build settlements. Your beloved Israel has been occupying and mistreating a group of people since 1948, but the US has only been in Iraq for 7 years. Give me a break. Third, Israel is not a super power and doesn't get the privileges of a world power, but when it does become one you can try to compare it with us.

 

JJACKSON

4:09 AM ET

June 10, 2010

What privileges? I was not

What privileges?
I was not aware that being a super power came with privileges, unless you mean the ability to ignore the norms of behavior other states try to abide by but I would file that as abuse of power. Israel may like to cling to the 'plucky little state surrounded by enemies' meme but it is now, with a little help from some short sighted friends, a regional superpower and, regrettably, behaving like one.
Why did FP publish this puff piece?

 

VILKSSWEDEN

1:22 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Everyone has totally missed the point.

In the world of law, and the filed of torts, there is a standard known as "the reasonable man" standard. In essence, it states: each person owes a duty to behave as a reasonable person would under the same or similar circumstances. If a reasonable man would do the exact same thing as the accused, then it is generally considered that the accused acted accordingly and is not guilty of the tort.

Obviously no one and no nation is perfect. The question then comes down to the "reasonable man" or "reasonable nation" standard.

So, the author is saying what would a reasonable country do under the same or similar circumstances as Israel.

The U.S. is generally held to be a "reasonable country." By comparing the United States' actions to those of Israel, the author finds that Israel actually acted better in similar situations.

My own analysis would add Turkey, Great Britain, France, and Russia to the mix (or numerous others). These countries are generally considered "reasonable." In each case, when faced with insurgencies or low intensity conflicts (Kurds, Northern Ireland, Algeria, Chechnya), these countries engaged, in the worst case, in various forms of torture, coercive interrogation, blockades, and extrajudicial killings. In the best case, they committed massive collateral damage while fighting individuals and groups they would call "terrorist."

When really looking at these cases (not just from my analysis, but a real actual in depth study) you find that these "reasonable countries" acted the same, or in most cases, worse than Israel.

In our best wishes, we would never have war. Everything could be solved by negotiation. Everyone would be happy.

Absent a perfect world, there is violence, war, and disagreement. How we solve it is usually messy, but there is a "reasonable standard." When we hold one nation above this reasonable standard then we engage in either fantasy (dreaming of world peace) or exhibit our own personal prejudices. Both are unacceptable, with the former evidencing naivete and the later evidencing bigotry.

 

PROFESSIONAL NOMAD

2:26 AM ET

June 10, 2010

I'm sorry; when was it again

I'm sorry; when was it again that the UK launched an indiscriminate attack on Northern Ireland, destroying the majority of civil, physical, and economic infrastructure, and then prevented the rebuilding of same? When was it that residents of Northern Ireland were prevented from leaving the island and from fishing offshore?

 

ANONYMOUSSHAHID

9:00 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Professor, surely you jest?

The invasions of Ireland during the 16th and 17th centuries included the wholesale expropriation of land belonging to 'insurgent' leaders, i.e. Silken Thomas, et al. Oliver Cromwell's forced displacement of civilians from Leinster and Munster to English prisons and Australian penal colonies is arguably worse than the displacement of Arabs during the devastating wars on 1948, 1967 and 1973. The Irish still mourn the deaths and displacements of Irish civilians under British rule in the same way that Palestinians mourn the Nakba. Regardless, the point that VilkSweden is making is valid; in the concept of a Westphalian nation-state, Israeli self-defence actions are hardly outside the boundaries of 'normal'. The truth is, the Arabs living in what is now called 'Occupied Palestine' lost a series of wars, were conquered, and are now fighting an insurgency using tactics that are far less discriminate and far more morally indefensible.

 

ZORRO

12:56 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Genocide

Following the logic of the author: Many "reasonable" countries has engaged in genocide, therefore genocide is permitted. Q.E.D.

 

FJCROW2008

1:59 PM ET

June 10, 2010

In the world of law, and the filed of torts??

In the USA, a "tort" is something less than a misdemeanor, such as a parking ticket, jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk. Try getting out of any parking ticket based on your reasonable man argument. Good luck to you. In any event, this is well beyond anything applicable to the theory of a "tort." Nice try, but nobody is ever going be let off the hook for murder based on a "reasonable man" theory. How can you possibly imagine that crimes against humanity could ever be excused using a "reasonable man/country" theory?
Bottom line really is... it doesn't matter who does it. IT'S WRONG.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:29 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Nearly every country was founded in blood

Most countries were not founded on "genocide" (a rather over-used and misapplied term, especially on this forum) per se, but rather in blood, violence, and displacement. From East Timor to Kosovo (soon) to the United States and the United Kingdom, (and even Iran going back to the Persian empires) it is essentially the norm for countries, tribes, nations to form through violence and the displacement of other countries or tribes. It is more of a historical aberration for a country to be formed peacefully and have zero border disputes, ethnic cleansing issues than not. Even countries we not think of as peaceful engaged in massive ethnic cleansing, such as Czechoslovakia expelling a million ethnic germans and Poland ethnic cleansing its German population following WWII to India and Pakistan ethnically cleansing their Hindu and muslim populations in 1947 and Greece and Turkey expelling hundreds of thousands of non-ethnic greeks or turks. Even as recently as the first gulf war, kuwait expelled (no one ever seems to use the words "ethnic cleansing" here for some reason - double standard) a few hundred thousand palestinians. And yes, even the darling palestinians "ethnically cleansed" territory of Jews. Examples: the Jewish population of Hebron in the 1920s and the Etzion bloc in 1948.

So to sum it up, in terms of forming nations, yes violence (or at least certain forms of it) is a norm. So is ethnic cleansing or population transfers. The only countries judging now are countries that essentially completed their process of violence and ethnic cleansing. They can sit back and judge, because essentially their dirty work is done. Other countries either continue this practice, hide it sufficiently from the public, or no one cares (like the lack of attention paid to the very recently completed african world war).

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:32 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Actually, you are wrong. The reasonable man theory

is a common law theory used in CRIMINAL law, tort law, and contract law. The concept of "perfect self defense" often uses this principle in a murder trial.

 

FJCROW2008

3:05 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Self defense different than reasonable man theory

Maybe you're talking about other countries. If any person has caused the death of another human being because due to "self defense"... the "reasonable man" theory need not apply. Perhaps you can give precedent? And yes, torts are part of criminal law... the most insignificant of crimes. No doubt. In any event this is completely not about tort law nor the "reasonable man/country" theory whatsoever. That is just a deflection. So let's just drop that unless you really want to discuss legal theory as opposed to the embargo against Gaza, which is the real issue. And guess what? Even Israel is starting to think that they need to change their policy. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/world/middleeast/11gaza.html Maybe it really isn't the best thing to do after all? For anyone. Israel included.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

3:10 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Reasonable man for murder -

would a reasonable man have felt threatened in a same or similar circumstance and felt it reasonable to react, i.e. kill the offender.

Yes, there you have it.

 

FJCROW2008

3:16 PM ET

June 10, 2010

OK There I have it :D

I really am not doubting what you are saying. But what you are saying doesn't seem to justify what even Israel itself is now thinking is not the right thing to do. Just because this has been the typical condition of man on earth, doesn't mean that it should be continued or ever was the best thing to do. World peace is pretty close to "fantasy" as you say. But at least it is a good dream. In the meantime, pointing out and avoiding whatever human suffering that we can is probably still a good idea. Don't you think? (And that legal argument of yours... there I have it. I was really hoping for a single explicit case where "reasonable man" as opposed to "self defense" was the deciding factor. But can't we just drop it and say that I lost on that one? Thanks.)

 

VILKSSWEDEN

4:35 PM ET

June 10, 2010

I was pointing out the legal standard however it is typically

encoded in almost every state's criminal code, under the sections on homicide - mitigating factors - perfect self defense.

I agree with you that world peace would be great. It's just not attainable and may never be. Absent that we of course have to act with care but we have to understand what reality is like too. War is reality and a reality of war is death, destruction, collateral damage and sometimes other actions that can be deemed right or wrong at the time in the heat of battle.

We can always aim for perfection but must judge by reality's dictates.

 

DANNY BLACK

3:28 PM ET

June 13, 2010

Nomad, try reading up on the Irish war of indepedence

Or failing that the Great Revolt in the Mandate 1936-1939 to see how the British acted. Where do you think the laws about blowing up terrorist homes come from?

What is it about the Arab-Israeli conflict that brings out the historically ignorant?

 

DANNY BLACK

3:32 PM ET

June 13, 2010

Zerro

When did Israel commit or attempt genocide? You do know what this word means right?

It means like when Saddam killed over 100,000 Kurds in a year. Or when Assad slaughtered an entire city a couple of weeks before Sabra and Shatila. Or when Hitler killed over 95% of Polish Jews or when the Hutus killed 50% of all Tutsis in 3 months or when Khemer Rouge killed millions of people in their country. See the difference between that and a grand total of 8,000 killed in 10 years of conflict? No? Didn't think so.

 

THEEASYWAY

3:06 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Are you blind?

What a hopelessly dumb article. Israel hold to higher standards? Really? Name a single other country that has gotten away with occupying land for 43 years, colonizing it in violation of international law, and implementing highly discriminatory laws favouring the settlers against the natives.

 

TRUTH NOT PARTISAN

3:42 AM ET

June 10, 2010

possibly you are sir?

Turkey is quite easily one of them. Kurdistan can easily be seen as an occupation by many and yet it is "not" because Kurdistan hasnt ever really been a country as hasn't....wait for it...Palestine. This entity hasnt been a country just about ever. It was either under Ottoman Rule or British for quite some time now.
There is also the Good Ol' US of A which has "occupied" native american land for quite some time now and pushed them on to reserves.

 

THEEASYWAY

7:33 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Just shot yourself in the foot

As many commenters here have said, other countries acting badly does not excuse Israel, be it America or Turkey. Although Turkey does treat its kurds infinitely better than Israel treats Palestinians.

One thing Israeli apologists doesn't get is that when claiming the west bank isn't occupied, they're shooting themself in the foot. If it isn't occupied, but a part of Israel, then why are it's inhabitants treated so much worse than all other "Israelis"? Why can't they vote? If the West Bank isn't occupied, then Israel is the worst racist dictatorship to ever exist. And it wasn't exactly a beacon of racial equality to begin with either.

 

ARADI

8:15 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Name a single country?

China in Tibet, Syria in Lebanon, Turkey in Northern Cyprus - and that's without mentioning the nations that are basically entirely composed of settlers and occupiers: the US, Australia, New Zealand..

In fact the main difference is that Israel indeed started a process to eliminate the occupation on a peace-for-territory basis. Worked great for Egypt, who got the entire Sinai desert, 2/3 of Israel's territory at the time. Didn't work for Palestinians, whose corrupt leadership and worldwide fanboys like yourself prevented from actually reaching an agreement.

 

MS. JONES

8:37 AM ET

June 10, 2010

China, in Tibet.

China, in Tibet.

 

JACOB BLUES

9:27 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Well Theeasyway

Turkey (Cyrpus) and Morocco (Western Sahara) come to mind. As did Syria during its 30 year occupation of Lebanon.
.
China still occupies Tibet
.
The Soviets occupied Eastern Europe.
.

 

JACOB BLUES

9:31 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Well Easy, here's why its not occupied

"One thing Israeli apologists doesn't get is that when claiming the west bank isn't occupied, they're shooting themself in the foot. If it isn't occupied, but a part of Israel, then why are it's inhabitants treated so much worse than all other "Israelis"? Why can't they vote?"
.
The West Bank was never part of any country. That's not knocking the Palestinians, but providing an accurate legal definition of the territory. Remember, the Green line between Israel and the West Bank isn't a border, but an armistace line which is where Israel and Jordan stopped fighting. Jordan never claimed the West Bank, or if it did, Israel would be occupying Jordanian territory, something that would have been settled back in 1994 when Israel and Jordan signed a peace treaty.
.
So there is now a dispute between two parties, Israel and the Palestinians.

 

JACOB BLUES

1:43 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Apparently lal Qila, you need a better map

"There is a no country in the world like Israel as bad, as racist and as thuggish."
.
Try the 53 nations in the OIC. Try the 22 nations in the Arab League. Try North Korea, Try Russia, Try China, Try the Congo. Try Venezuela.
.
But that would actually force you to push past your crocadile tears and face reality.

 

DANNY BLACK

3:36 PM ET

June 13, 2010

Can name more than one

China, Turkey, Sudan, Syria, Saudi Arabia etc. That help? Also they have been at it for longer than 43 years and killed many many many more people.

PS I assume you know about the legal distinctions made between Palestinian origin Jordanians and Beduin Jordanians? No? Didn't think so.

 

HUGH

4:08 AM ET

June 10, 2010

How does this execrable

How does this execrable propaganda get through quality control? FP, if you're going to publish blatant Israeli PR at least don't insult your readership with this bottom of the barrel dreg.

 

ANARCHIST

5:55 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Truth and justice

This article clearly is written as part of the 'we are victims' pro-Israel propaganda piece. To say that Israel is held at an impossibly high standard of human rights violations is laughable. Israel has a dismal track record of human rights in Gaza.

Most of the world is not aware since the mainstream media which tends to be pro-Israel will not report the wrong doings of Israel, especially the American media.

No government is perfect. Almost all governments world over violate their constitutions, laws and human rights. In this case the United States and Israel are world leaders in violating of international laws, human rights laws, Geneva Conventions.

Israel is feeling the heat since the world finally sees their true colors. The humanity of the world is outraged because we hear that little voice inside of us called 'conscience' saying; 'This is too much, we cannot simply ignore the injustice'.

 

MS. JONES

8:45 AM ET

June 10, 2010

"Most of the world is not

"Most of the world is not aware since the mainstream media which tends to be pro-Israel will not report the wrong doings of Israel, especially the American media."

The American media pro Israel? Has your television set been broken in the last few weeks? Except for FOX news, the American media failed to broadcast the film of so-called peaceful aid workers beating Israeli soldiers with metal pipes and chains--even after the unarmed, man was down on the deck at least twelve if not more continued the vicious, brutal attack. I believe Helen Thomas's well publicized anti-Semitic, bigoted rant very well summarizes the "pro-Israel" sentiments of the American mainstream media.

 

ZEDORITY

8:21 PM ET

June 11, 2010

Get out of the FOX news echo chamber

"Except for FOX news, the American media failed to broadcast the film of so-called peaceful aid workers beating Israeli soldiers with metal pipes and chains"

Well it seems that you just demonstrated that you never watch any American media except for FOX news, as even a fake "news" host onComedy Central could easily prove this wrong:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-june-3-2010/glenn-beck-airs-israeli-raid-footage

By the way, have you seen the unofficial footage that was smuggled out of Israel, in spite of the IDF's attempts to censor all footage that contradicts their official story, and which I bet FOX news will never even mention, let alone air?

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/unedited-video-of-israeli-raid-posted-online/

 

DANNY BLACK

3:50 PM ET

June 13, 2010

Israel ignored?

Is this a joke? You think if ANY other country had shot dead 9 violent protesters this would be an international incident?

It always amazes me that people can say with a straight face that somehow they are being anything other than sheep attacking Israel and that somehow they are bravely fighting the consensus to expose Israel.

 

DANNY BLACK

3:52 PM ET

June 13, 2010

exactly HOW that video contradicts Israel's version?

because it doesn't seem to show the upper deck where the fighting was going on....

 

SMARG

6:48 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Israel Should Nuke Iran Before it Gets Nuked Itself

Why play games? Odumbo won't help the Jews; he hates them.

If Israel wants to survive, it must do everything in its power to do it.

 

BOOJUM

11:46 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Irradiated Arabs

Khan;

Oh dear, the winds in the northern hemisphere blow from west to east, and therefore that nuclear fallout would irradiate all your beloved West Bank Palestinians before moving on to other parts of the Arab world.

 

FJCROW2008

2:07 PM ET

June 10, 2010

NO DUDE!!!

NOBODY SHOULD NUKE ANYBODY!!! HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND?? One "holocaust" was not enough?? Now you want a nuclear one as well? Do you realize what that will do to the earth? Do you realize what the collateral damage could be? You really think that hundreds of thousands of civilians should be killed by nuclear incineration because you don't like what Iran is doing? Have you read anything about what happens after a nuclear explosion? Why don't you go ask some Japanese if they think that's a good idea? WOW! REALLY??

 

VILKSSWEDEN

3:07 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Nuclear fall out couldn't make Khan

more idiotic. Maybe it would make him smarter?

 

THE MEDITANT

6:52 AM ET

June 10, 2010

First of all, the author is

First of all, the author is just plain wrong. I remember Fallujah and so do many other people reading this load of bull. We distinctly remember that US troops mowed down peaceful protesters in cold blood. We not only condemned this act, but the entire invasion and all the accompanying crimes against humanity.

So it becomes pretty obvious what the rest David Brog's dialogue will be, given the headline. The purpose is obvious. Israel cannot be so bad because other low-lifes have done the same thing. Wow. Imagine him excusing the rapist/murderer of one of his loved ones because other rapist/murderers have committed the crime more times than he. Just imagine. So this is the criteria for criticizing and not criticizing - that others have done as much or worse. That should really make victims feel good ... according to this typical Jew-style defense.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

3:06 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Jew style defense? That sounds like a Hitler style

tone of voice. Wow, an angry man....

take your pills and relax.

" Imagine him excusing the rapist/murderer of one of his loved ones because other rapist/murderers have committed the crime more times than he. "

The world of nation building and armed defense is different than criminal law. You should be sophisticated enough to figure this out and make such a distinction. Unless you consider nation building a crime. In that case, you are guilt as being involved in such a crime. You pay taxes, live, work, and reap the benefits of what you would consider a criminal enterprise.

 

FJCROW2008

4:14 PM ET

June 10, 2010

War different than criminal law

But Vilks, you were just arguing with me that the "reasonable man" approach to criminal law should somehow apply here. Very interesting how you feel a need to comment on almost each and every thread. Your tone seems to tell me that you believe people that don't like what Israel is doing in Gaza are uneducated or just stupid anti-semitics. Your tone sounds like we should all just agree to a no-bounds war free for all. Because, after all, it is inevitable. Right?

 

VILKSSWEDEN

4:38 PM ET

June 10, 2010

I post a few serious threads and then just fool around

when guys like Sami and Khan go off the deep end about "zionazi attrocities" and "Jewish control" of the media, the United States, and their mothers.

 

DANNY BLACK

3:55 PM ET

June 13, 2010

Which peace loving people were these in Fallujah?

Do you actually believe the crap you write?

 

MJROSENBERG

7:26 AM ET

June 10, 2010

The Neocons Strike Back!

Stupid point. Most of us who criticize Israeli behavior oppose the Iraq war, fought to prevent it (to no effect), and decry the crimes perpetrated in Iraq by our government.

So there is no inconsistency here, quite the opposite.

And there is no inconsistency among Brog's neocons either. They supported the Iraq war (for Israel's sake) and care not whit about the crimes America commits there. In fact, when the "enemy" is Muslim, there is no war crime they won't defend, by America, Israel or anyone else.

Also, it should be noted, that Israeli rightists and American neocons have the exact same agenda: defending everything Israel does unless it tries to make peace (i.e., Yitzhak Rabin). Both have no use whatsoever for America except as Israel's supporter and arsenal.

Bottom line: so long as America is providing Israel with billions in aid (more, by far, than we provide any other country), people like Brog have no right to call us out for criticizing Israeli actions. The mortgagee should not call the bank names, until he can find another bank.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

3:04 PM ET

June 10, 2010

The mortgagee should not call the bank names, until he can find

another bank.

Really? Like african americans shouldn't complain when they were being ripped off on mortgages?

There can still be a form of "consumer protections" for people and in this case metaphorically applied to nations.

 

GDRIVER

7:33 AM ET

June 10, 2010

LIKUD's Lethal Legacy of AntiSemitism

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/c/o/colindale/2010/06/likuds-lethal-legacy-of-anti-s.php?ref=reccafe

 

MECORMANY

8:14 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Face It

Pretty obvious Israel is no worse than the United States. The two rogue states dedicated to state terrorism and perpetual war with Arabs and Muslims keep using each other as a justification for their own war crimes.
Many of us were protesting Iraq from the beginning as well as Afghanistan. 19 civilians were responsible for 911 and a decade later our armed forces are still massacring innocent Muslims -- that doesn't mean Israel gets a pass for what it's doing in Gaza or on the high seas.
The Right just never gets it. As Colin Powell said, "Americans tend to forget other people react the same way we would to injustice." Thanks to arrogant warmongering neo-cons and rightwingers in both countries, we'll be giving each other the same 'well, you're no worse than we are" crap forever. Pariah nations can be large and they can be small -- they're still pariah's.
But, lets smack Iran around some more, lets investigate the flotilla when we get around to it and make Helen Thomas the evil story of the day.
What a pathetic piece of ill-logic about two pathetic countries.

 

DAVID DOREY

8:14 AM ET

June 10, 2010

adhering to international law is unreasonable?

I'm not convinced by the 'USA does it so why cant we' argument or that expecting countries to adhere to international law is an unreasonable expectation. A catalog of wrongs doesn't make everyone right. - web design surrey

 

VILKSSWEDEN

3:00 PM ET

June 10, 2010

international law is largely all theory created by those who

earlier violated its principles, achieved what they wanted, and now stand above everyone to tell them what to do. Easier to judge through historical norms and patterns rather than ivory tower treatises creating largely unenforceable regulations.

 

DANNY BLACK

3:58 PM ET

June 13, 2010

What international law has Israel actually violated?

Or are we all maritime law experts now?

 

DISIGNY

8:20 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Comparable standards

One simple disproof : the US is not claiming the ownership of "Iraqi" territory as part of the US.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:34 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Antisemtism and bigotry is a common muslim trait, along with

stupidity, a lack of hygiene, failure to use critical thinking skills, and inability to properly use a flush toilet.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:35 PM ET

June 10, 2010

And child molestation, honor killings, rape, and

acid attacks on women's faces when they are dressed "inappropriately."

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:58 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Yeah we just claimed

the whole middle section of north america from the native americans...and the south west from mexico. Britain claimed northern ireland after sending over hundreds of thousands of settlers. China claimed tibet after war and sending millions of ethnic chinese. Turkey claims Cyprus and Kurdish lands.

 

FJCROW2008

4:03 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Fan of war and killing?

Wow Vilks. Fan of war much? If you want to just go and kill stupid and unclean people then you'll have your hands full for quite a while. And if that's what you really want to do, then just say that. Why hide behind "antisemitism"? You wanna kill stupid and unclean people and it's as simple as that. Are you sure that's the best thing to do?

 

VILKSSWEDEN

4:42 PM ET

June 10, 2010

please read how its largely tongue in cheek - no advocacy in

terms of promoting or being happy about conflict. However, understanding that it exists and did exist and in what forms is important. This was the reason I pointed out the U.S., India and Pakistan, Turkey, and France.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

4:42 PM ET

June 10, 2010

please read how its largely tongue in cheek - no advocacy in

terms of promoting or being happy about conflict. However, understanding that it exists and did exist and in what forms is important. This was the reason I pointed out the U.S., India and Pakistan, Turkey, and France.

 

FJCROW2008

4:59 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Point taken

I've been known to have a bit of a tongue-in-cheek approach from time to time as well. There seems to be several issues here. I prefer to stick to the simpler ones. Not about military justification, or even international laws and such. It really would be better for Israel to treat some of the conquered people a bit more humanely. Not the militants, just the civilians. Or the hatred on both sides will surely never end. Israel has been at this for what? 62 years? They need to rethink their approach to how they treat the civilians at least. IMO. I say that we stop trying to say who is worse or which wrong justifies another. Just focus on a civil solution to the problem in Gaza... in the places where it makes sense.

 

COMMENTATOR

2:19 AM ET

June 11, 2010

Lying

It is forbidden to bear false witness by the Jewish holy books. In contrast, it is permitted in Islam ("Al Taqiyya") to lie to advance Islam and rather than being a sin is considered praiseworthy.

Jews believe in "the truth", a gift of the Jews to the West. In contrast, Arabs believe in "my truth" and "your truth".

Q.E.D.

 

DANNY BLACK

4:01 PM ET

June 13, 2010

humanely?

FJCROW2008, in Israel the Arabs have full Israeli citizenship, with full rights and make up 10% of the Parliament, have supreme court judges, generals in the army, ministers in government, top rating TV shows, professors in university etc etc etc. Not sure how much more humanely they can be treated.

 

MATTHEW DOYE

8:23 AM ET

June 10, 2010

There is no equivalence ...

... between the worst U.S. actions in recent conflicts and day to day Israeli actions.

The United states does not practice collective punishment, it does not put 1.5 million people on basic rations and does not arbitrarily deny people the right to medical aid.

What the author describes as the collateral damage during "Cast Lead" was no such thing, it was deliberate; houses were demolished deliberately, places of worship were systematically targeted, food production centres were intentionally destroyed and ambulances were treated as military targets.

There is no example of U.S. action that comes anywhere close to this in recent history.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:40 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Really? Like carbet bombing Germany? or

dropping the Atom bomb on Japan....twice.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:41 PM ET

June 10, 2010

or curfews in iraq on whole villages? Or napalm in the vietman

war. Wow, pull your head out of your ass.

 

FJCROW2008

3:56 PM ET

June 10, 2010

or slavery or carpet bombing cambodia or...

I'm glad that you pointed that out VILKSWEDEN. Let's not bother to compare VERY WRONG against VERY WRONG and somehow determine that equals justification.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

4:45 PM ET

June 10, 2010

War is Hell

its true

 

F1FAN

8:23 AM ET

June 10, 2010

impossibly high standard?

I do not think that is an 'impossibly high standard' to expect a nation to not seize ships in International Waters, kill civilians and engage in collective punishment. What the USA does when it does not roundly condemn things like this is betray the very reasonable standards that our nation was founded on and it leads to less accountability in our own armed forces and government.

Israel's soldiers and commanders should be in the dock for the flotilla seizures and the murders that occurred during, just as American soldiers and commanders should be in the dock for killing Afghan civilians, running secret prison camps and torture.

The only way to 'win' the 'War on Terror' is to not betray our standards and become the terrorists. So far we are losing, badly.

 

MS. JONES

8:57 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Murder?

And who will prosecute the "civilian" protagonists 1) whose avowed purpose was to run the blockade or become martyrs; 2) ignored requests to dock peacefully and allow their shipments to be searched for smuggled weapons; and 3) ganged up on the unarmed Israeli soldiers tasked with enforcing the blockade, then beat them brutally with metal bars and chains, even throwing one man overboard? Fortunately, Fox News aired the film of these vicious beatings and exposed the "peace flotilla's" version of events as LIES.

 

JACOB BLUES

9:37 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Hey Sami, HAMAS blew up a summer camp two weeks ago

Because the aid agency in charge of it wouldn't teach the kids HAMAS docterine.
.
HAMAS and its supporters have blown up internet cafe's and bars in Gaza. It's members have shot an engaged couple, due to be wed, just before their marraige because they took them to be illicit lovers since they were out in public together.
.
Given the bile you spill onto your keyboard you must wind up changing laptops on a regular basis. Keep up the hate though, it reminds me daily what we face.

 

JACOB BLUES

1:50 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Not at all JT

Sami's trying to equate Israel with the Nazis. I'm just reminding him what his Palestinian brothers have been doing in Gaza for comparison's sake.

 

JACOB BLUES

1:55 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Which fantasy world are you choosing to live in now JT?

"But when we are merely considering cutting off all aid and trade with Israel and stop vetoing UN votes about Israel, without giving unconditional support to Hamas instead, Hamas is pretty much irrelevant."
.
Who knew that the US was setting itself up to abandon its ally and treat it as it does its worst enemies.
.
Last I checked, we weren't going to cut off any aid to Israel and certainly not stop trading with it. As for the UN veto blocks, consider it a counter balance to the ongoing law-fare as practiced by the Arab and Muslim world, the same 53 nations that not only can't live with the idea of the independent Jewish state of Israel, but decided that they can't even live with their Jewish minorities and subsequently ethnically cleansed them from their lands, of course while keeping their assets to be used, you know, for state purposes.
.
Given that HAMAS is the terrorist group that is controlling Gaza, and given that this group holds a core belief of the destruction of Israel and the death of all its Jews, and this is who Israel is fighting, than yes, HAMAS is quite relevent to the discussion at hand.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:51 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Jacob, JT is making the unrealistic "ron paul" style

isolationist argument. In the same theory, we should cut off all military and economic aid to Colombia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. If that's how he feels, fine. But, just apply this isolationism consistently and don't single out Israel.

 

FJCROW2008

3:49 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Works for me

Cut off aid to all those you mentioned? Works for me and I think Ron Paul would agree.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

4:54 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Israel has provided the US with intelligence information,

electronics, a forward operating base for middle east operations, military technology, numerous business on the NYSE, cures, medications, and new medical procedures, was a bulwark against the Soviets and their client states, and acts as the U.S. 's attack dog when called upon (saved Jordan from Syrian invasion at the request of the U.S.).

What other countries that the U.S. provides aid to have done this?

 

FJCROW2008

5:06 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Probably none... but...

You're right. None that I can think of off hand. Germany has really helped out the US in many ways both directly and indirectly. Granted, they've never been an "attack dog" for them. But this is important, because I really think that there is a path for Israel to succeed and be more humane. They've been fairly brutal and that gives ammunition to their opponents. How about taking that away? The USA can go to war and look/sound like heroes doing it. So can Israel but they probably got to hold back a little bit on the brutality. Or maybe even a "lotta bit".

 

ZEDORITY

8:31 PM ET

June 11, 2010

Hmmm...

...Turkey?

 

AR

9:49 AM ET

June 10, 2010

Real Christians don't support

Real Christians don't support israel because they know how Christians, especially those who live in the Old City, are treated. Idiots like the author of the above article are a large part of the reason Christians have been getting a bad rep.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:43 PM ET

June 10, 2010

really? like how bethlehem was a majority arab christian city.

then it was handed over to the Palestinian Authority. Now its a minority christian city. See, all the christians fled. That's because they weren't treated so nicely my uneducated friend. Their mayor (who historically has always been a christian) was even replaced by a muslim.

 

DANMCD

11:12 AM ET

June 10, 2010

what a hopeless argument

"American soldiers killed unarmed Iraqi civilians and got away with it....so if you criticize Israeli soldiers for the flotilla raid, you must a crazy Israel hater calling for Jewish blood"

Huh? That doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me, but then again neither does the more general narratives defending the attack on the ship and the blockade on Gaza. If you're going to try to justify such things, at least get your story straight. In the days that followed the attack, we were told they found weapons on the ship, that the activists had guns on board, and that the IDF did not fire on anyone until fired upon. If it really was such a one-sided event, islamofascist terrorists attacking unsuspecting soldiers, then why can't we see a little more video, why is an international investigation such a crazy thing to call for? Once again, journalists are not allowed to say anything, video recordings are confiscated, and the one source of information conveniently happens to be....the army. I'm assuming Mr. Borg wouldn't be very happy if the only people allowed to release any 'evidence' (edited, at that) were anti-blockade activists.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:45 PM ET

June 10, 2010

And the Palestinians are cry baby terrorists without a country.

And pakistan is a shitty army with a country. Iraq is an army with a country, Syria is an army with a shitty country, and almost every other middle eastern state is too.

 

DANNY BLACK

2:58 AM ET

June 14, 2010

There is no end of video and no end of coverage

You have tons of video from the IDF side and from the "activist" side and ALL show exactly the same thing that the activists attacked the IDF soldiers before they even landed. That they were armed with bats, knives and metal bars at the minimum and that they inflicted serious injuries on the first batch of soldiers. There has been tons of coverage. Can you think of any other instance where 9 dead turks would get this level of attention?

I guess you prefer not to believe what you see and prefer to repeat what is clearly and obviously untrue.

As for the an "international investigation", what you actually want is a Goldstone-esq "investigation" where a bunch of people who already made up their mind, already wrote up the conclusion uncritically accept anything from the anti-Israeli side whilst dismissing what Israel says. Given that is the case why do you need to ask Israel's permission? Just fire up MS Word, fill out UNHCR_condemns_Israel.dot and pass it out to be uncritically regurgitated by "Human Rights Groups" and churnalists.

 

JFAIR

12:49 PM ET

June 10, 2010

You Are Wrong

This article disgust me. You argue that because I am an American I have no right to criticize Israel. I was not on the building top in Iraq shooting unarmed civilians. I did not sanction the invasion of Iraq. I have the freedom of speech and can criticize whatever the hell I want to criticize.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:46 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Means your country follows the same norms, standards, and

problems in modern warfare as Israel or any other. You can open your big fat mouth, but as a US citizen you are part of the collective nation of the United States. You are therefore treated as a collective, as all nations are. China doesn't put tariffs on lets say iron ore for the united states, but then specifically exclude you. You are treated as a nation with the U.S.

 

KBAHAA

3:49 PM ET

June 10, 2010

One of the lies created and

One of the lies created and accepted in the West is that Islam is against Jews and Christians by default. Muslims like any people on earth don't like to be occupied or subjugated by any one.
What is abnormal about Mr. Brog's idea is that he wanted to justify Israel's acts by reminding Americans that they did likewise in Iraq and Afghanistan.
But the Israeli crimes are worse because Israel has adopted the policy of indiscriminate killing and extensive destruction to restore its image as a feared nation after failing to hand back the lands occupied to its owners. It did so in Lebanon, Gaza and now against some peace activists. Israel restored to lethal weapons to stop them from breaking the blocked imposed on Gaza; the biggest prison in modern history.
Israel has killed 19 Turkish, American, Moroccan men and women and considered them terrorists just because they tried to save the imprisoned people of Gaza.

 

COMMENTATOR

2:35 AM ET

June 11, 2010

Israel has killed....

The claim that Israel killed 19 Turkish, Americasn, Moroccan men and women "just because they tried to save the imprisoned people of Gaza" is some sort of slime peak. They killed them because they were trying to beat the Israelis to death. Even the Turkish press has now carried those pictures.

As for the Israeli soldiers, they were conducting a blockade enforcement legal under international law. The ship had declared their intention to run the blockade, which makes boarding in international waters legal. No need to wait until they hit the blockade line.

As for the "imprisoned people of Gaza" they are international pariahs. They tried to overthrow the government of Kuwait and got kicked out. They tried to overthrow the government of Jordan and got kicked out. They tried to overthrow the government of Lebanon and got kicked out. Now they are in quarantine by both Israel and Egypt so they can't repeat that barbaric history. Meanwhile, the relatively peaceful West Bank Palestinians are themselves living in peace and prosperity, and on their way to nationhood if they jettison the Neanderthals in Gaza.

 

COMMENTATOR

6:30 PM ET

June 11, 2010

More historical ignorance

It is simply false that the Araba were not historically anti-Jewish. Mohammed was initially friendly to the Jews, hoping they would convert. When they refused to do so, he became viciously violent toward them, and dehumanized them. Read the Quran. In a famous case, he initially made a peace treaty with a Jewish tribe, the Qureishi. When he became strong enough to defeat them he violated the treaty and murdered them.

 

TONY WICHER

6:21 PM ET

June 10, 2010

Long live Helen Thomas!

The last honest American journalist goes out in a blaze of glory. Helen deserves two Pulitzers at least for this statement:

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/72/961/Helen_Thomas_To_Jews:_Get_The_Hell_Out_Of_Palestine.html

Most of the settlers in the West Bank come from such places as New York. To them I say: Fellow Americans, come on back to your real homeland. We welcome you back.

 

COMMENTATOR

3:26 AM ET

June 11, 2010

Going back to where you came from

In a stunning report in today's New York Times, two studies just published in two of the most distinguished and refereed scientific journals report that:

"Jewish communities in Europe and the Middle East share many genes inherited from the ancestral Jewish population that lived in the Middle East some 3,000 years ago, even though each community also carries genes from other sources — usually the country in which it lives.
That is the conclusion of two new genetic surveys, the first to use genome-wide scanning devices to compare many Jewish communities around the world.

A major surprise from both surveys is the genetic closeness of the two Jewish communities of Europe, the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim. The Ashkenazim thrived in Northern and Eastern Europe until their devastation by the Hitler regime, and now live mostly in the United States and Israel. The Sephardim were exiled from Spain in 1492 and from Portugal in 1497 and moved to the Ottoman Empire, North Africa and the Netherlands.

The two genome surveys extend earlier studies based just on the Y chromosome, the genetic element carried by all men. They refute the suggestion made last year by the historian Shlomo Sand in his book “The Invention of the Jewish People” that Jews have no common origin but are a miscellany of people in Europe and Central Asia who converted to Judaism at various times.

One of the surveys was conducted by Gil Atzmon of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Harry Ostrer of New York University and appears in the current American Journal of Human Genetics. The other, led by Doron M. Behar of the Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa and Richard Villems of the University of Tartu in Estonia, is published in Thursday’s edition of Nature.

Dr. Atzmon and Dr. Ostrer have developed a way of timing demographic events from the genetic elements shared by different Jewish communities. Their calculations show that Iraqi and Iranian Jews separated from other Jewish communities about 2,500 years ago. This genetic finding presumably reflects a historical event, the destruction of the First Temple at Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 B.C. and the exile of many Jews there to his capital at Babylon.

Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East, the two surveys find. The two communities seem very similar to each other genetically, which is unexpected because they have been separated for so long."

 

COMMENTATOR

3:39 AM ET

June 11, 2010

Going back to where you came from--II

Following up on the above, which reports on Jewish Middle Eastern ancestry 3000 years ago, long before Mohammed was a gleam in his father's eye, it should be noted that most so-called Palestinians actually came from Egypt, Iraq and Syria in the nineteenth century, drawn by the economic prosperity brought by the Jews to a land that had previously been, according to Mark Twain who visited it, a desolate wasteland.

Thus the Jews "belong" in Israel, and most (but not all) "Palestinians" belong in Egypt, Iraq and Syria.

The whole "Palestinian" identity is a fiction dreamed up by an Egyptian engineer named Yasser Arafat.

While I'm on history, the so-called "third holiest" Al Aqsa mosque was actually elevated to importance by the Umiyyad Caliphate as a counterbalance to Mecca when they had a dispute. As soon as the dispute was settled, they abandoned Al Aqsa and the roof was allowed to fall in. Check the Waqf's own historical documents--my source for the above, not the Israelis.

And finally, the claim that it is the spot from which the Prophet ascended to heaven isn't even supported by the Quran, which says in the original Arabic that he ascended from "the furthest mosque". At the time, that had to be somewhere in the Mahgreb, not Jerusalem. Jerusalem isn't even mentioned once in the Quran in the original Arabic, yet is mentioned hundreds of times in the Torah. And Mohammed knew geography so this was no slip of the pen.

 

COMMENTATOR

3:49 AM ET

June 11, 2010

NY Times quotes

Note that in my original post I used "snip" in brackets to indicate jumps in the material quoted since the article was rather long. But apparently the software at FP suppressed those, thinking they were attempts at nonexistent HTML tags. The original article is somewhat longer than the excerpts I quoted, but the omitted matter does not alter the meaning.

 

COMMENTATOR

6:38 PM ET

June 11, 2010

Irrelevant genetic information?

The point isw that the Arab propaganda claim that most Jewish immigrants have no historical connection to Israel has now been proven bogus.

The Arabs have been actively trying to destroy any Jewish connection with Israel and the Temple Mount. Yet when I visited it many years ago, it was the Arab Temple Mount trust that was eager to tell me all about the Jewish history there and Solomon's temple. I still have their tourist brochures.

 

BARRY

1:14 PM ET

June 11, 2010

Just because Foreign Policy guys pretend ignorance...

First, Brog is lying. Lots of people were aware of US forces shooting Iraqis do to 'being shot at' (where no US sodliers were killed or injured).

Perhaps not the neo-con war supporters at Foreign Policy, but that's due to them not wanting to know.

Second, as Daniel Larison said: (http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2010/06/10/when-basic-standards-are-impossibly-high/)

"The flotilla was sailing under the flags of states that were not at war with Israel. Indeed, several of them sailed under the flag of an official military ally. The ships were in international waters bound for a territory under a blockade of very questionable legality. It is doubtful that Israel had any legal right to board the ships, and in any case the decision to do so resulted in nine civilian deaths. The standard to which Israel is being held right now is a pretty simple one, and it is not terribly high: do not attack civilians in international waters when they are on a relief mission. This shouldn’t be a hard standard to meet. "

 

SKIPPER

1:55 PM ET

June 11, 2010

Garbage article..

This article does not represent the American street. Israel is guilty of murder, genocide (1940-1948), Ethnic cleansing, Occupation of innocent people on their own land after stealing Palestine and giving it a name change.

 

RSAFSOZ

3:41 PM ET

June 11, 2010

first israil!

first israil nuked nuclear weapons sikis

 

COMMENTATOR

6:57 PM ET

June 11, 2010

The Talmud and how Jews were treated by the "goyim"

From Wikipedia:

[edit]Story

In the story, the Roman emperor Hadrian decides to martyr 10 rabbis as 'punishment' for the 10 brothers listed in the Torah who sold their brother Joseph to Ancient Egypt (Genesis 37). He justifies this by saying that the penalty for this was death (according to Jewish law, one who kidnaps his fellow Jew and sells him into slavery is punished with death. This, however, does not allow for descendants to be punished in place of their ancestors), and though this crime took place almost two thousand years earlier, there are 'none like you' 10 who are capable of rectifying this crime.
[edit]The martyrs

According to the poem, the first two to be executed were Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and Rabbi Yishmael the Kohen Gadol. Rabban Shimon Ben Gamliel was beheaded, and while Rabbi Yishmael wept, the Roman ruler's daughter coveted Rabbi Yishmael for his physical beauty. When she was told that he would have to be executed as well, she asked that the skin of his head be flayed while he was alive, so she could stuff the skin and look at his face.
The most well known martyr is Rabbi Akiva, who was raked over his skin with iron combs. Despite the pain consuming him, he was still able to proclaim God's providence in the world by reciting the Shema, drawing out the final Echad - "One".
Another sage martyred was Rabbi Haninah ben Teradion, who was wrapped in a Torah scroll and burned alive. Damp wool was packed into his chest to ensure he would not die quickly. When he was being burnt, he told his students that he could see the letters of the sacred torah "flying up" to heaven.
The others mentioned in the poem are Rabbi Chutzpis the Interpreter (so named, because he would interpret the words of the Rosh Yeshiva - the head of the Yeshiva - for the masses, who could not follow all his words); Rabbi Elazar ben Shamua; Rabbi Hanina ben Hakinai; Rabbi Yesheivav the Scribe; Rabbi Yehuda ben Damah; and Rabbi Judah ben Baba.

 

COMMENTATOR

6:57 PM ET

June 11, 2010

The Talmud and how Jews were treated by the "goyim"

From Wikipedia:

[edit]Story

In the story, the Roman emperor Hadrian decides to martyr 10 rabbis as 'punishment' for the 10 brothers listed in the Torah who sold their brother Joseph to Ancient Egypt (Genesis 37). He justifies this by saying that the penalty for this was death (according to Jewish law, one who kidnaps his fellow Jew and sells him into slavery is punished with death. This, however, does not allow for descendants to be punished in place of their ancestors), and though this crime took place almost two thousand years earlier, there are 'none like you' 10 who are capable of rectifying this crime.
[edit]The martyrs

According to the poem, the first two to be executed were Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel and Rabbi Yishmael the Kohen Gadol. Rabban Shimon Ben Gamliel was beheaded, and while Rabbi Yishmael wept, the Roman ruler's daughter coveted Rabbi Yishmael for his physical beauty. When she was told that he would have to be executed as well, she asked that the skin of his head be flayed while he was alive, so she could stuff the skin and look at his face.
The most well known martyr is Rabbi Akiva, who was raked over his skin with iron combs. Despite the pain consuming him, he was still able to proclaim God's providence in the world by reciting the Shema, drawing out the final Echad - "One".
Another sage martyred was Rabbi Haninah ben Teradion, who was wrapped in a Torah scroll and burned alive. Damp wool was packed into his chest to ensure he would not die quickly. When he was being burnt, he told his students that he could see the letters of the sacred torah "flying up" to heaven.
The others mentioned in the poem are Rabbi Chutzpis the Interpreter (so named, because he would interpret the words of the Rosh Yeshiva - the head of the Yeshiva - for the masses, who could not follow all his words); Rabbi Elazar ben Shamua; Rabbi Hanina ben Hakinai; Rabbi Yesheivav the Scribe; Rabbi Yehuda ben Damah; and Rabbi Judah ben Baba.

 

COMMENTATOR

7:05 PM ET

June 11, 2010

The martyrs

The above "story" is a quotation from the Jewish Yom Kippur prayerbook, presented in poetic form as is appropriate for prayers. Jews have said this every year at Yom Kippur for thousands of years.

We remember to this day. More need not be said, because it would be in rage that could be heard in heaven, not some annoyance at a weapons blockade whose purpose is to prevent such acts.

 

BOREDWELL

11:12 PM ET

June 11, 2010

"The US and Israel must

"The US and Israel must adhere to the highest ethical standards in the fight against terror," you state adding, " (we)must never cease to treasure every single innocent life." The blockade is neither humane nor ethical; it's punitive and military. Ditto for our occupation. In both incidents, the only lives the soldiers treasured were their own. You also neglect to report that during Israel's 9 Day war against Hamas, eyewitnesses reported that Israeli military used Palestinians as human shields, including children and pregnant women. Personal testimony given by IDF soldiers corroborated this. Israel remains unapologetic over this high seas raid, maintaining self-defense. Yet what about those who were defending themselves from the Israelis storming the ship? Are they to be held to a different standard? You say that two Israeli were nearly "beaten to within an inch of their lives." Are you implying then that the deaths of the 9 people aboard ship wasn't retaliatory but an act of self-defense? Who attacked whom first? When does an act of "self defense" become an offensive action?.

 

WALKTHEWALK

8:49 PM ET

June 13, 2010

Article incorrect, but comments show lack of impartiality, too.

In his desire to sweep Israel's recent act of abuse on the high seas, the author forgets that many, many Americans have been court martialed for human rights abuses. Perhaps none of those that shot too soon at that particular time and palce in Falujah were courtmartialed but many others have been. Contrast this with Israel--no one is ever responsible. Kill UN people-=-it's an accident. Kill US servicemembers on the Liberty? An accident (and both of these attacks took place over hours, not in the quick shoot-at-the-sound of combat).

Then there are the Sabra and Shatilla massacres and the other massacres that IDF has either participated in or enabled or watched. No one is responsible.

We haven't even gotten to the last Gaza invasion. So please, don't compare our troops to the IDF. I wouldn't want our troops to have such a low standard anyway.

 

COMMENTATOR

6:09 AM ET

June 14, 2010

Collective Punishment

A weapons blockade when a state of hostility exists is not collective punishment. Repeating it won't make it so. Humanitarian aid is going through massively, Arab sources say Gaza markets are overflowing with goods. There are photos in the international press to prove it. Gasolene costs 2/3 of what it does in Israel--again not a sign of shortage. Electricity comes in from Israel. The pharmacies there are more well stocked than Amerian Rite-Aids according to press observers.

Hamas refused entry of the cargo from the so-called humanitarian fleet--obviously there was either no shortage or they were deliberately starving their people. Either way they are lying as are their friends.

The so-called Humanitarian Aid ship that tried to kill the Israelis had no humanitarian cargo at all--just the luggage of the passengers and crew, some light military equipment, hand-to-hand weapons. On that ship known terrorists boarded separately, and herded the passengers (including many well-meaning dupes) below decks so they could not witness the attempted murder of legally boarding blockade inspectors. Thus their testimony must be dismissed; they weren't on the upper deck to witness anything.

Now that the facts have come out fair-minded countries are starting to investigate Turkish government complicity, along with the Turkish terrorists, in the whole mess, and have backtracked on their initial condemnation of Israel without evidence.

 

HAVEANICEDAY

3:12 AM ET

June 15, 2010

Do you have a better idea? If not, hold your reprobation

Many people condemn Israel's actions for reasons abounding. Ultimately, what most people fail to realize is that any other government would have done exactly the same, if not more, than Israel did with regard to engaging the 'freedom flotilla'. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? Regardless of the politics behind the 60's blockade of Cuba, If any Soviet ships would have tried to break past the US military blockade, the US would not have bothered boarding their ship to inspect the cargo, nor would they even bothered making radio contact with the ship, as Israel did. It would just be torpedoed into oblivion, instantly killing every passenger, obliterating any cargo, and as the author of this article points out, no one would question if the US would have been within its rights to do so. Let me point out that blockades are an act of war, and perfectly legitimate under the conventions of war. To deny that Israel was within its right to engage in an act of war - in spite of all the terrorist attacks against it - would be exactly the double standard the author spoke of. The fact remains that the blockade only filters out weapons and supplies to Hamas, and does not interfere with normal transportation of goods. Some would have you think that the people of Gaza are starving to death. This is hardly the case, with bazaars full of food and even high-end clubs and hotels to top it all off. Honestly, the Al Deira Hotel in Gaza City is an incredible and luxurious accommodation. Where, then, do Gazans get these supplies? According to official figures, international aid groups (legitimate ones), the United Nations, and Israeli taxpayers paid for the importation of hundreds of thousands of tons of humanitarian aid, including food, schoolbooks, medicine, everything, in 2009. By contrast, Gazan exports included a few hundred tons of empty cans, and carnations. Seriously. But that's not to say the Gazan people are lazy or incompetent! I think it's undoubtable that they're being victimized here. But by whom? Is it the fault of Israelis, and the entire charitable world, that their infrastructure is practically nonexistent? It is Hamas, their terrible, ideological and dangerous government. They siphon necessary supplies from civilians, and convert them into means by which to carry out acts of terrorism. Imported cement and steel gets used for bunkers instead of civilian construction. Personally, I think any government for whom war and destruction is a first priority whereas its people come second is a dangerous government. Let me stress, then, that the problem is not the Israelis, nor the Palestinian people. They need a government that is willing to engage in diplomatic solutions rather than dedicating themselves to dogma-based, relentless violence. People with charitable intentions should donate to legitimate charities that donate hundreds of tons of aid to Gaza daily, not trying to make lachrymal tragedies out of human lives by deliberately provoking and assaulting military patrols. Diplomacy and pragmatism, not dogma, blind hatred, and provocation. And if anyone who approaches a military operation with the intent to engage soldiers in combat thinks they are immune to harm, they are so wrong.

Also, if every country were to start expelling each other over fake passports, no one would be talking to each other anymore. What, like the CIA and MI5 don't use fake passports all the time? At this rate, diplomacy should be dead!

 

HAVEANICEDAY

1:56 PM ET

June 15, 2010

RE: AURANGZEB KHAN

How was it war crimes or torture? You're delegitimizing this by using words like 'war crimes' and 'torture'. There's a difference between 'war' and 'war crimes'. If you think what Israel did was a war crime, what should they have done instead? If you can't come up with an answer for that, you're a hypocrite.

 

HAVEANICEDAY

8:47 PM ET

June 15, 2010

HMM...

One thing you're not addressing is the fact that Israel, in conjunction with the UN and aid groups, provides 100% of the infrastructure for the Palestinians. If not for the blockade, what else should Israel be doing to get rid of Hamas? Should it do nothing as Hamas sends in terrorist attacks daily? What about Israel's prerogative to protect its own citizens? The burden lies upon Palestinian government (sorry, the term Palestinian government is somewhat of an untruth in itself) to provide infrastructure for the people, not Israel. Of course, the Hamas couldn't be bothered. So long as they get more missiles and bombs, they're just fine. By the way, why would I not like the Red Cross? They're a great organization.

Also, how does it violate the Geneva conventions? Doesn't it violate the Geneva conventions to throw rockets at civilians? The blockade is only there to filter out terrorism-related imports. Israel would never get away with barring international aid from the Gazans, and they're not.

What chokes off their economic development isn't Israel. Israel is what paid for their infrastructure in the first place. What people need to do is stop blaming Israel, only trying to protect its citizens while keeping the Gazans alive, and focus on the real enemy - corrupt, terrorist governments like Hamas. That way, everyone wins, Israelis and Palestinians. Remember, pragmatism rather than hatred is the key to success in the Middle East conflict.

 

HAVEANICEDAY

10:12 PM ET

June 15, 2010

MISSING THE POINT

Hamas's very goal is to be homicidal, far from that of the Israelis. And how are rockets genocidal? Whom exactly do the Israelis feel compelled to exterminate? Nobody. There are plenty of Arabs in Israel. To say that we're genocidal is definitely illogical. Again, understand that Israel has no ill will towards anyone, we're not out to kill groups of people, as Hamas is.

 

HAVEANICEDAY

8:50 PM ET

June 15, 2010

ON THE SUBJECT OF PRAGMATISM

With regard to the Mavi Marmara incident, what should Israel have done instead?

 

HAVEANICEDAY

10:27 PM ET

June 15, 2010

ACTUALLY

Israel is occupying 10% of what used to be Palestine. The other 90% is called Jordan. Shouldn't you be nine times angrier at Jordan?

 

HAVEANICEDAY

10:31 PM ET

June 15, 2010

You still haven't explained

You still haven't explained how it's genocidal or illegal. And, I believe Hamas's desire to kill all Israelis, Arab and Jew, is just as immoral as the oppression of Hamas against Palestinians.

 

HAVEANICEDAY

10:38 PM ET

June 15, 2010

GENEVA ACCORDS

"Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited."

I wouldn't describe an imposition on screening all imports into Gaza as intimidation, terrorism, pillage, or reprisal. It's a forced security measure. And, it's worked!

 

HAVEANICEDAY

10:41 PM ET

June 15, 2010

RIGHT

The Israelis certainly could have done something similar, like an air blockade, rather than simply closing the airport. I'm not defending all of their actions - after all, that would just be irrational. No democracy is perfect. But it would also be irrational to call Israelis mad rabid dogs, wouldn't it? That's just mean...

 

HAVEANICEDAY

12:07 AM ET

June 16, 2010

No nation's perfect

Rabbi Meir Kahane is hardly representative of Israel. It pains me that you would evaluate all Jews based on the actions of a radical; indeed, it would be as if I judged all Muslims by the actions of the Taliban. Also, you resort to calling me and my two countries liars. This is a dangerous thing to do. When you demonize your opponent, you fail to achieve rationality and pragmatism. Again, I implore you to use reason rather than call me a flat-out liar. It will only better yourself and your argument.

 

HAVEANICEDAY

12:07 AM ET

June 16, 2010

No nation's perfect

Rabbi Meir Kahane is hardly representative of Israel. It pains me that you would evaluate all Jews based on the actions of a radical; indeed, it would be as if I judged all Muslims by the actions of the Taliban. Also, you resort to calling me and my two countries liars. This is a dangerous thing to do. When you demonize your opponent, you fail to achieve rationality and pragmatism. Again, I implore you to use reason rather than call me a flat-out liar. It will only better yourself and your argument.

 

TETHROS

12:12 PM ET

June 18, 2010

The Real Difficulty...

The real difficulty in this situation is not that active defense or offense against terrorist elements is morally unjustified, but that it's simply ineffective. Look at the current situation that Israel is in. Irrespective of whether or not it was at fault for the deaths on the flotilla, it is now facing the brunt of world scrutiny. The situation in Fallujah that you mention above is analogous: whether or not the U.S. soldiers were in any danger, their decision to fire into the Fallujan crowd raised the ire of the Fallujan people, and catalyzed a massive insurgent resistance movement. This insurgent movement, in turn, did present a much greater danger to our armed forces than a possible lone gunman in a riotous crowd.

The fact of the matter is this: if we want to fight these new wars effectively, we need to learn how to accept a certain level of loss among our armed forces. The danger of an insurgency is not in the immediate kinetic force that it levies against the counterinsurgency, but rather the insurgency's ability to recruit and engage the local population against the counterinsurgency. Call it the new version of "hearts and minds" if you will. If Israel wants to secure its borders it should:

A) Apologize, even if insincerely. This means a lot more than you might expect.

B) Start sending aid packages to Gaza. What better way to cultivate cross-cultural understanding than the sending of gifts?

C) Figure out a way to work towards an intergrative Palestinian-Israeli state, through intermarriages, shared living spaces, and a strong bicameral federal government.

 

GADFLY

1:39 PM ET

June 25, 2010

apologetics 101

Bin Laden's -- along with much of the Muslim world's -- animosity toward the US stems mostly from US conduct, and secondarily from US support for Israeli policies. To them we are one and the same, a "Crusader-Zionist alliance".

Brog's argument: we should forgive Israel's brutal collective punishment because US collective punishment of Iraqi civilians is far worse. This is morally reprehensible.

?

 

GADFLY

1:39 PM ET

June 25, 2010

apologetics 101

Bin Laden's -- along with much of the Muslim world's -- animosity toward the US stems mostly from US conduct, and secondarily from US support for Israeli policies. To them we are one and the same, a "Crusader-Zionist alliance".

Brog's argument: we should forgive Israel's brutal collective punishment because US collective punishment of Iraqi civilians is far worse. This is morally reprehensible.