Pakistan's Suspicious Public

Caught between a vicious Islamist insurgency and CIA drone strikes, Pakistanis are growing increasingly disenchanted with the Taliban. But they still hate the United States, too.

BY AHMED HUMAYUN | JULY 9, 2010

A series of militant attacks over the last week have sparked widespread anger in Pakistan. Suicide bombers killed 62 people at government offices in the tribal agency of Mohmand today, and last Friday, over 40 worshippers died in an extremist attack on the shrine of Hazrat Data Ganj Baksh, the country's most important Sufi place of worship.  In Pakistan, however, much of this outrage has been directed at Washington and Islamabad rather than at the terrorists.

"America is killing Muslims in Afghanistan and in our tribal areas [using drone attacks]," argued one Pakistani interviewed in the aftermath of the attack, explaining why the United States is ultimately to blame for the bombing. "[M]ilitants are attacking Pakistan to express anger against the government for supporting America." Similar sentiments have circulated widely on Pakistan's hugely influential private TV networks.

To understand this reaction, it is necessary to grasp the complexity of the domestic Pakistani debate about militancy. The good news is that, over the last 12 months, ordinary Pakistanis have decisively turned against the Taliban's religious agenda. The bad news is that Pakistanis have simultaneously become even more anti-American -- which in turn is distorting their perception of counterinsurgency.

Pakistani perceptions of the Taliban's religious program have shifted from tacit acceptance to revulsion. For a long time, the Taliban argued that they simply wanted to make the country more pious. Until 2009, most Pakistanis saw nothing wrong with that declared intention and largely opposed military operations against militant havens in northwestern Pakistan. Last year, 80 percent of Pakistanis approved of Islamabad's February 2009 truce with the Taliban, which ratified jihadi control over large areas of the North-West Frontier Province.

But after the brutality of the Taliban's "Islamic" rule became self-evident, Pakistani perceptions changed. Last October, Islamabad, acting with broad public support, launched a major offensive against Taliban bases in South Waziristan. It has since followed that up with other operations in the tribal areas -- for example, the Army is currently fighting in Orakzai.

Today, public approval of the Taliban has all but collapsed. According to polling conducted by Gallup last December, no more than 5 percent of the population in any of the country's four provinces believes that the Taliban has a positive influence on their lives, including a meager 1 percent in the North-West Frontier Province.

But these heartening developments have been accompanied by a contrary and troubling trend: the hardening of anti-American sentiment among ordinary Pakistanis. Of 28 countries polled by the Program on International Policy Attitudes for the BBC World Service in April, Pakistan was one of only two countries where a majority of the public held negative views of the United States. And in another Gallup survey, when asked to identify the biggest threat to their country, 59 percent of Pakistanis identified the United States, while only 11 percent named the Taliban.

Pakistani disenchantment with the United States has skewed public discourse about extremism. When Washington urges Islamabad to fight militancy, distrustful Pakistanis question whether counterinsurgency is really in their own national interests. When U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton toured Pakistan in a series of town-hall meetings last November, one of her talking points was that Washington and Islamabad were fighting a common terrorist enemy. But many Pakistanis rejected this contention. As one journalist told Clinton, "We are fighting a war that is imposed on us. It's not our war. It is your war."

At first glance, the stubbornness of anti-American sentiment in Pakistan can seem difficult to understand. After all, President Barack Obama's administration has made significant policy shifts in response to enduring Pakistani grievances with past U.S. administrations. For example, the United States is currently bolstering democracy by moving beyond an exclusive partnership with the Pakistani military and deepening relations with civilian political parties. Moreover, Washington has allocated unprecedented dollars for a wide array of development and infrastructure programs, including vital projects in the energy and water sectors.

But many of these laudable measures -- necessarily focused on long-term issues -- have yet to show tangible benefits. By contrast, Pakistanis are perpetually confronted by the coercive elements of U.S. power. Constant media reports on drone strikes, the presence of U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the operation of private mercenary agencies and spy networks in Pakistan fortify a decades-long narrative of the United States as hostile and anti-Muslim. Much of the media's reflexive demagoguery is made worse by credible reports of the local presence of organizations such as the security firm formerly known as Blackwater -- reviled throughout the Muslim world.

Some might argue that rising anti-Americanism in Pakistan is insignificant as long as the United States maintains strong ties to officials in Islamabad and can convince them to expand military operations against militants. But Pakistani suspicion of the United States is the Taliban's last remaining trump card: If it is allowed to fester, the insurgency might regain the public's indulgence.

These opinions have broad currency in part because Pakistan's political leaders have yet to craft a compelling counterterrorism narrative. Even worse, some mainstream Pakistani politicians have internalized the assumptions of Taliban propaganda. Shahbaz Sharif, the chief minister of Punjab and one of the most powerful politicians in the country, declared in March that the Taliban should refrain from terrorism in Punjab because his political party, the Pakistan Muslim League (Nawaz), had also "rejected dictation from abroad" -- implying the two groups shared a common purpose against the United States.

Instead of allowing extremists to frame the domestic debate, Pakistan's leaders should foster a vigorous discussion that honestly confronts the jihadi Frankenstein. Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani's call to bring together all major political parties for a national conference on extremism in the aftermath of the Data Ganj Baksh attack is a long-overdue step in the right direction. For its part, the United States should consider whether some aspects of its counterterrorism campaign -- such as the use of companies like Blackwater -- have more costs than benefits in terms of public perception. And both Washington and Islamabad need to collectively generate a narrative in which the two countries are seen to work in concert rather than in opposition. Otherwise, anti-American sentiment in Pakistan will function as a protective shield for extremists for a long time to come.

Arif Ali/AFP/Getty Images

 SUBJECTS: AL QAEDA, SOUTH ASIA
 

Ahmed Humayun is a senior analyst on the Emerging Threats Project at Georgetown University. He can be reached at humayun@isis.georgetown.edu.

ASHOK2718

8:38 PM ET

July 9, 2010

Please talk about Ideas (or a jerk will have a QED for us)

How can a country which has been / is in a downward spiral come out of it ?

I find it more of a poverty problem than a militancy problem. What do you think would people do if they had same paying jobs ?

Would they still pick up the militant path just because it is the easy one ? (and the pay is almost the same)

In a lecture of TED a prof said that militancy everywhere is like MAFIA doing other trades in the guise of movement and most of these people don't know anything about their org.'s goals or roadmaps.

And aren't blackwater guys used only as security guards ?

 

ARYABHAT

4:27 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Poverty is a cause but only partially

Ashoka,

While agreed that poverty feeds terrorism, it is only a partial cause. It is like saying poverty feeds crime. Yes, people will still fight even if they had jobs - if they are misdirected. That is what ahppened in West Germany in 70s and Northern Ireland in 70s/80s.

Other part of the problem is mindset of people, civic discipline, moral discipline (you don't steal when you are hungry or kill others to setlle grievences) which comes from quality of leadership - which this article is rightly trying to point to and education - which this article missed but you have correctly refered to in your other comments.

That is what Pakistan need to address. Right education (secular - which ensure respect to other religion) and right leadership (one that does not use begging bowl and try to fix Pakistan's probelm itself rather then using it as holding gun on its own head).

 

ASHOK2718

6:11 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Oh yeah I agree

except that it is not what pakistanis need to address it will be what the world collectively have to address

They need a Bandobast very soon

 

ARYABHAT

6:22 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Its Pakistan's education and Pakistan's leadership

Ashoka,

It is Pakistan's education and Pakistan's leadership. World have no jurisdiction over educational curriculum of Pakistan. Same way, world can't export leaders to Paksitan.

These things must come from within.

There is only so much "world" can do - especially when Pakistan isn't helping itself - by becoming secular or reforming education.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:08 PM ET

July 12, 2010

Poverty? than maybe pakistan shouldn't be spending billions

on nuclear reactors that they intend to purchase from China. Maybe they should spend the money on their own people.

 

JAVED

7:12 AM ET

July 13, 2010

A solution to Pak Problems

Dear All,

It is no use blaming USA or others for the problems of Pakistan. Let's talk facts. If we want a stable Pakistan we need to have education and social justice in Pakistan. Most of the problems facing Pakistan today are a result of terrible social injustices and lack of education. I agree poverty is one factor behind militant mind-set. But think if we have a stable and just Pakistan, people would be content and there would be investment and jobs would be created. This will solve the poverty issue. Removal of social injustice will encourage people to approach courts rather than feudal and war lords. I agree, some highly educated people are also part of the militant groups and that is due to unresolved problems in the Muslim countries. I think the US, being a world leader, should play it's role in this regard and solve these unresolved issues in the Muslim world which is a must for a peaceful world anyway. I believe these things would not only change anti-Americanism sentiment but also stabilize Pakistan and make the world more peaceful at large. I request those not to talk about our issues who don't know or have no first hand experience of what we have and are facing. We need peace, durable peace not just empty talk and emotions.
Thanks
Javed Khan

 

SEAN D89

12:29 AM ET

July 10, 2010

Injustice for all

I never thought I'd say this, but Orangezeb is right about one thing: that these people need a decent education and steady jobs. Unfortunately, Pakistan has neither of these. Hence, the sh*thole that the jihadis crawl out of that the world knows as Pakistan.
On the topic of injustices, I will also agree that there have been some injustices carried out against Muslims. My heart bled for those who were massacred in Bosnia and my sympathies go out to the innocent Iraqi and Afghan civilians who have been caught in the crossfire of war. Generally, I feel a little bad for all Muslims because, like the Jews, they tend to create a lot of their own problems, many of which can be easily avoided.
While you point out the injustices suffered by the Muslims, I would also like to point out the many injustices carried out by jihadis. First of all, no one group has suffered more at the hands of jihadis like Al Qaeda and the Taliban than the Muslims themselves. On a daily basis, these lunatics kill more of their "fellow" Muslims than anyone else. Why else has Osama and his group lost so much of their appeal in the Muslim world? Why else have the Taliban lost support with the Pakistani public? And don't even get me started on how you all use the Palestinians as pawns.
As an American, I will admit that our foreign policy is a bit screwed up at the moment. But if real progress is to be made, BOTH SIDES need to fess up to their wrongdoings and bury the hatchet. Alas, that won't happen because this isn't a perfect world....

 

ASHOK2718

7:45 AM ET

July 10, 2010

Sean you see the problem is not education the problem is

6th century desert Mindset. People like these don't know what they want

1) they would look towards days of classical Islam and say that we want all the land and the glory and days of ruling over others back. This is the mindset which definitely says that yes we were superior to you and we should have been if you wouldn't have cheated.

at the same time

2) They would want to have all the modern education for their children when in fact they can't even handle a simple darwin's theory in a tolerant way.

Complete lack of spirit of inquiry as you know that a certain book is supreme.

I quote from Nafee Mosaddeq Ahmed's book -- The war on freedom (p 32,33)

"One of the first edicts issued by the regime when it rose to power was
to prohibit girls and women from attending school. Humanitarian
groups initiated projects to replace through philanthropy what prior
governments had afforded as a right to both sexes… On June 16, 1998,
the Taliban ordered the closing of more than 100 privately funded
schools where thousands of young women and girls were receiving
training in skills that would have helped them support their families.
The Taliban issued new rules for nongovernmental organizations
providing the schooling: education must be limited to girls up to the
age of eight, and restricted to the Qur’an… PHR’s researcher when
visiting Kabul in 1998, saw a city of beggars—women who had once
been teachers and nurses now moving in the streets like ghosts…
selling every possession and begging so as to feed their children.”

The Taliban had thus:

"… deliberately created such poverty by arbitrarily depriving half the
population under its control of jobs, schooling, mobility, and health
care. Such restrictions are literally life threatening to women and to
their children. The Taliban’s abuses are by no means limited to
women. Thousands of men have been taken prisoner, arbitrarily
detained, tortured, and many killed and disappeared. Men are beaten
and jailed for wearing beards of insufficient length (that of a clenched
fist beneath the chin), are subjected to cruel and degrading conditions
in jail... Men are also vulnerable to extortion, arrest, gang rape, and
abuse in detention because of their ethnicity or presumed political
views."

You can judge as to what kind of person its supports are

 

KURT82

10:41 PM ET

July 10, 2010

Only a bit screwed up?

Two irrational wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and blind support for Israel through two wars (Lebanon '06 and Gaza '09) and you think it's only "bit"off? Even the Taliban in Pakistan are spill over from the war in Afghanistan. Also, who is the other side in your "both sides" statement? Is it the Muslim world in general? Because 19 crazy terrorists were responsible for 9-11 but the publics of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq are paying the price.

 

ASHOK2718

10:51 PM ET

July 10, 2010

What about the production factory ?

Where the material comes from ? Either convert it to something else maybe bread production plant or get ready to be served more of the hot stuff.

 

ARYABHAT

4:39 AM ET

July 12, 2010

That mindset comes from education

Ashoka,

While I agree that it is the 1600 AC mindset of average Pakistani that is major cause of its situation, it is its education system which is breeding it.

Just look at what they are teaching kids at school. The official Curriculum Document, Primary Education, Class K-V, specifically prescribes "simple stories to urge jihad." Under "Activity 4," the prescription for three- and eight-year-old Pakistanis is "To make speeches on jihad and shahadat."

Class VI students of social studies are taught that "the foundation of Hindu setup was based on injustice and cruelty." Social Studies students in Class VII are taught that "Europeans nations have been working during the past three centuries, through conspiracies or naked aggression, to subjugate the countries of the Muslim world." In Class VII we teach our kids that "Some Jewish tribes also lived in Arabia. They lent money to workers and peasants on high rates of interest and usurped earning. They held the whole society in their tight grip because of the ever-increasing compound interest."

Is this teaching or preaching? Is this part of a curriculum or hate literature? Are Pakistani schools harvesting crops whose products, our students, can be used by Pakistani banks, insurance companies, the textile industry and software houses?

 

ASHOK2718

6:09 AM ET

July 12, 2010

I didn't care about my school uptill my 12th class

So I wouldn't care about the schools so much. Normally boys and girls only learn for exams and afterwords forget and get on with their life. It is the general atmosphere outside that sustains it.

Their TV, radio, mullahs, mosques, grandparents at home almost everything 24/7 spoon feeds the people their against everyone else. Even against their own shiite or sunnis or whoever stands againt whoever. GUN THEM DOWN.

 

INJUNTROUBLE

1:53 AM ET

July 10, 2010

Pakistan is in permanent state of denial

Pakistanis want to blame everyone else for their problems except themselves - America, India, Israel, UK, Russia (everybody except China and Saudi Arabia).

What they refuse to see is that - One group of Taliban is killing Pakistanis while the Pakistani Intelligence agency ISI is arming and training another group of Taliban.

Basically people who keep poisonous snakes as pets, should not be surprised if their family members get bitten now and then..

The only solution is to get rid of all the snakes even if they appear to be useful pets to scare your neighbors with.

 

ASHOK2718

7:27 AM ET

July 10, 2010

Any society based on intolerence

for beliefs of others can not progress. Sure, you are entitled to your opinion but that doesn't mean you have the right to gun down anyone who disagrees.

That is exactly what is happening here

Why must you care if your listening to music at loud voice disturbs your neighbor ?

Moreover If some people claim to be so pan islamic why do they look other way when Chinese Hans get their 'best' with Uighurs ?

 

SUBROSA

12:05 PM ET

July 10, 2010

very sad...

sean d89 , i totally agree that everyone is suffering- afghanis and pakistanis and americans.its like 911 everyday out there. pak. govt. officials should really think twice before sucking up to the jihadis like that leader from lahore mentioned above did. if they are willing to attack mosques- what makes this guy think his offices will be spared? the pakistani government itself is allowing drone strikes there on a daily basis and if they feel like drones are an effective strategy ---then this is a point that needs to be told honestly by the pak govt. to the pak. people. it should be easier now that the public opinion is against the radicals. i think the lack of honesty makes people angrier, they are not stupid. make a good case for why they need joint efforts something like president bus did really well after 911.

 

MISHMAEL

5:39 PM ET

July 10, 2010

First of all, the Islamic

First of all, the Islamic conception of society is fundamentally different from the western one, so that practices which a westerner would find objectionable are not the cause of anger in Pakistan. Injustice in Pakistani society leads to a hardening of hearts against the leaders of Pakistan. Anyone worried about anti-Americanism should concern themselves with the specific causes of it rather than all the problems of Pakistan.
It is American policies toward Pakistan, Afghanistan, and India (all of which affect Pakistan acutely) which give rise to anti-Americanism. My guess is that Pakistanis feel as if they have become the least favored of the three, the one which always gets the stick and no carrot. It is made to suffer collectively through bombings, violence, instability, poverty etc through America's decision of using the region as a battlefield since the Soviets in the 1980s. Not only would they not appreciate their country being made into a frontline state, they appreciate America's ideological bonding with arch-rival India even less.
Pakistan is not a backwater. (to put it more politely than some) It was a seat of civilization, empire, knowledge, and progress and most Pakistanis remember their nation's glories vividly. this is not at all objectionable since all countries have rosy self-images. Pakistan will and only should appreciate that which reinforces such images and object to the other ones.
Ultimately, is is the destruction of this images through war which in all fairness was really started by the Americans which give rise to anti-Americanism. yes Pakistan has problems, but there's a wide gulf between ones caused by fellow Pakistanis and Muslims and ones caused by American interests.

 

ASHOK2718

5:48 PM ET

July 10, 2010

policy my foot

there policy toward many countries is twisted you don't see all of them going out and bomb or gun there own population.

 

FP23233

8:23 PM ET

July 10, 2010

Another pointless article

really does not matter what ordinary people think. Like all countries they are more concern about economy and family. Pakistani elite are smart to recognize constant vicious propaganda (this article included) in elite press of supposed ally. This is not a single serious point in the article which is mostly gleaned from latest "news". Some of it is laughable.

If us was neutral in the region or giving some serious long term strategic or economic help, elite would become pro-American and it will easily filter down to masses.

 

ASHOK2718

11:14 PM ET

July 10, 2010

Would you like to be on a sinking ship ?

A rat is the first one to run when a ship starts sinking. The elite of a newly independent country also think this way.

When a new country is created it has limited resources in terms of industries and natural resources. If you want to produce a machine that can produce another machine or a machine that can produce other articles.
You will have to divert resources to create capital base.

People in present will have to choose whether they want things at rate of 10 now
Or things coming at rate of 30 to them in future

Simple strategy games

What elite think is that the ship is going to sink so better make off with the loot while you still can and thus they stack all the money they can get their hold on from coffers of a weak nation and deposit it into Swiss banks.

Simple

This is what happens in Africa this is what used to happen in South Asia
India has left the circle (apparently) can Pakistan ?

Or would it rather divert its resources to producing weapons to fight its apparently endless enemies ?

Face it. It is not wise to give aid money to Taliban on one hand and use the same aid money to fight them on the other hand.

 

AHSON HASAN

12:48 PM ET

July 11, 2010

Pakistan's Suspicious Public

It's way too complicated than ordinarily believed. Without sounding prejudiced or even qualified enough to comment on the rather miserably deplorable state of affairs, one can confidently argue that Pakistan is indeed a failed state.

The people of Pakistan are suspicious and angry, of course, because of the insecurities that they suffer from. They have turned into losers primarily on account of grossly abused system that governs them.

The Pakistanis live and survive (barely) in an environment of hostility, exposed to the rough and treacherous conditions that only help and assist the rich and the powerful.

Oridinary folks have little education, no jobs, huge families to support, no financial investments to act as back ups, no health coverage, plenty of debts, and, worst of all, a completely screwed up religion to fall back upon if all 'fails' in life!

I'm not a religious scholar, nor do I wish to be one - I consider religion the mother of all nasty evils, self-created or otherwise. I do, however, understand that the Pakistani/Wahabi brand of Islam is a monster that can neither be subdued nor can it ever be tamed.

Religion is what is making the Pakistanis angry. Why? Because religion is a 'package deal' in Pakistan. It is associated with every wretched issue of life - personal success, eternal bliss (the definition of which is an open debate topic!), military taking over the country, 'snatching' Kashmir back from India, going nuclear (crazy), expressing anger at the United States of America, giving vent to frustration against India, condemning the Jews for the instability in the 'Muslim' world, etc.

It's all inter-connected basically. There is no one issue in life that has nothing to do with obnoxious Islam. People are hot tempered, emotional, charged up, passionate, breezily stupid! Life is not easy, it is agonizingly brutal, only because of Islam.

Interestingly enough, even though the Pakistanis claim to believe in God, they probably have lost all their trust in the Supreme Being. Anger is a mostly a result of lack of faith since God forbids agression, bloodshed and killing. To my understanding God is all about doing good and propagating peace. The Pakistanis seem to be miles and miles away from peace - they are NOT at peace with themselves.

Pakistanis need to stop pointing fingers at others - come out of this non-spritual hole, the exhausting trap that they find themselves in, stuck in a decaying quagmire of doubt and horrifying uncertainty. They need to lift themselves up by being self-critical, being open to cooperation and understanding, being non-critical of various states and nation they 'think' are detrimental to their existence.

Pakistanis need to face the realities of changing times. They are a failed people of a failed state - a state that still, according to several reports, encourages slavery, where human rights is just a

 

AHSON HASAN

1:37 PM ET

July 11, 2010

Pakistan's Suspicious Public

Its way too complicated than ordinarily believed. Without sounding prejudiced or even qualified enough to comment on the rather miserably deplorable state of affairs, one can confidently argue that Pakistan is indeed a failed state.

The people of Pakistan are suspicious and angry, of course, because of the insecurities that they suffer from. They have turned into losers primarily on account of grossly abused system that governs them.

The Pakistanis live and survive (barely) in an environment of hostility, exposed to the rough and treacherous conditions that only help and assist the rich and the powerful.

Ordinary folks have little education, no jobs, huge families to support, no financial investments to act as back ups, no health coverage, plenty of debts, and, worst of all, a completely screwed up religion to fall back upon if all 'fails' in life!

I'm not a religious scholar, nor do I wish to be one - I consider religion the mother of all nasty evils, self-created or otherwise. I do, however, understand that the Pakistani/Wahabi brand of Islam is a monster that can neither be subdued nor can it ever be tamed.

Religion is what is making the Pakistanis angry. Why? Because religion is a 'package deal' in Pakistan. It is associated with every wretched issue of life - personal success, eternal bliss (the definition of which is an open debate topic!), military taking over the country, 'snatching' Kashmir back from India, going nuclear (crazy), expressing anger at the United States of America, giving vent to frustration against India, condemning the Jews for the instability in the 'Muslim' world, etc.

It's all inter-connected basically. There is no one issue in life that has nothing to do with obnoxious Islam. People are hot tempered, emotional, charged up, passionate, breezily stupid! Life is not easy, it is agonizingly brutal, only because of Islam.

Interestingly enough, even though the Pakistanis claim to believe in God, they probably have lost all their trust in the Supreme Being. Anger is a mostly a result of lack of faith since God forbids aggression, bloodshed and killing. To my understanding God is all about doing good and propagating peace. The Pakistanis seem to be miles and miles away from peace - they are NOT at peace with themselves.

Pakistanis need to stop pointing fingers at others - come out of this non-spiritual hole, the exhausting trap that they find themselves in, stuck in a decaying quagmire of doubt and horrifying uncertainty. They need to lift themselves up by being self-critical, being open to cooperation and understanding, being non-critical of various states and nation they 'think' are detrimental to their existence.

Pakistanis need to face the realities of changing times. They are a failed people of a failed state - a state that still, according to several reports, encourages slavery, where human rights is just a sham concept, where there are huge gaps between the haves and have nots.

The Pakistani Islam is just like and may be worse than apartheid. Whereas the apartheid curse needed a Nelson Mandela to clear the mess, it is highly doubtful that the Pakistani with their clogged and heated up minds can ever hope for a revolution in name of peace for humanity and universal love.

 

MARTY MARTEL

4:19 PM ET

July 11, 2010

Pakistan was, is & always will be Islamic fundamentalist

Thanks to the Saudi-isation of Pakistan’s educational system beginning in 1976, entire Pakistani society has become violently Islamic fundamentalist in character no matter how anybody tries to paint it as ‘moderate Islamic’.

Let us NOT forget that Pakistan’s democratic government of Benazir Bhutto chose of its own free will, to facilitate relocation of Osama bin Laden from Sudan to Afghanistan in 1996.

Let us NOT forget that Pakistani Army and ISI created this jihadist Frankenstein monster on their own with full financing provided by Pakistan’s democratic governments during 1990s.

Al Qaeda, Taliban, LeT, JeM, JuD, HuJi and countless other terror outfits have been spawned in Pakistan, the official ’terror center’ of the world as per CIA with the help, support and sanctuary provided by the Pakistani State that is owned by Pakistani Army that uses ’terrorism’ as an official tool of state policy to further its own objectives.

Let us NOT forget that Osama bin Laden had publicly congratulated Pakistan in 1998 for exploding world’s first Islamic nuclear bomb.

Let us NOT forget that Pakistani Army used to provide military protection to Osama bin Laden during his umpteen visits to Pakistan. Let us NOT forget that Osama bin Laden has received many dialysis treatments at Pakistan’s military hospitals.

Let us NOT forget that Osama bin Laden had made huge campaign contributions to Pakistani prime minister Nawaz Sharif’s election campaigns in 1990 and 1996. Let us NOT forget that Nawaz Sharif has personally met Osama bin Laden at least three times in Saudi Arabia at Nawaz Sharif’s own request.

 

ASHOK2718

9:23 PM ET

July 11, 2010

 

TRUTH NOT PARTISAN

1:30 AM ET

July 12, 2010

its much easier to blame then

its much easier to blame then to take responsibility.
Lest we forget the fact that Jews lived in the Holy Land for centuries until all they wanted was an independent state.
Lest we forget that massacres occured on both sides.
Lest we forget that it is called the Israeli DEFENSE Force, because it defends their existence.

Lest we forget to always blame the Jew......

right Khan?

please dont tell me youre not anti-semetic. You dont even bother to veil your hate by saying Israeli so you can say youre only anti-zionist.

 

NICOLAS19

2:43 AM ET

July 12, 2010

ungratefulness?

The last paragraph of the first page made me laugh: are the Pakistani "stubborn" because they fail to embrace the US in a heartbeat? Come on, the US is carrying out attacks in their territory, blaming Pakistan for all the "terrorism" in the world (like in this article) yet Pakistanis should suddenly love them because Obama is a little bit nicer than Bush and giving them some money? They are grown-up people, mind.

Quick adventure: say, Russia suddenly invades Mexico and Canada with overwhelming force. They also attacking some "militants", American citizens in Washington, New York an Los Angeles without your consent. In the international media they frame the US as a terrorist heaven and urge it to attack its own people. They give you some money to build another block of Taco Bells and Putin sometimes says that you are jolly folk. Now would you EVER support that Russia?

 

ASHOK2718

5:53 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Nicolas you are a bastard ALRIGHT

This is a fight for hegemony by a small group of people having guns

You can see it in any "revolution"

as Lenin said it is not important to have a majority support first. First you must have control over the people. The mandate will come afterwards automatically.

And hence we have seen all groups vying to put people down by force or terror

this happened in Iraq after Saddam

this happened in NWFP after the govt forces were made to scuttle.

this happens more or less everywhere

What matters is what kind of people have taken control in the aftermath ??

America was foolish enough to think that these people will ever understand the concept of a democracy.

These people rightly deserve their place in the gutter of Shariat

And don't talk what could have happened. I could talk about 1000s of those.

You could have a shrapnel up your anus in a terrorist attack, who knows, maybe tomorrow.

 

NICOLAS19

8:46 AM ET

July 12, 2010

nobody is born as a terrorist

“As you can see in any revolution”, revolutions, insurgencies, uprisings never start without a reason. Maybe if the US wouldn’t be meddling there, playing one faction against the other (like in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan), there wouldn’t be a cause for young people to turn into terrorists. As the author wrote, the Taliban gain their power from the people's disenchantment, outright hatred of the US, occupying their neighbors, kins and carrying out unauthorized attacks on their soil. I don't say that Pakistan would be a totally peaceful country, but they would be really better off without the US attacking them and causing despair and hopelessness by occupying countries with close ties to Pakistan.

 

ASHOK2718

12:55 AM ET

July 13, 2010

Nicolas I have read Rousseau

don't lecture me.

By your logic Africa - a land of perpetual "revolution" is essentially being oppressed by westerners even today.

We know that is not so.

Same applies to situations in other areas.

Struggle for power to control or enjoy resources. GREED. nothing eles.

These are greedy bastards who want to scare public into submission or to scare them away so they can enjoy resources.

 

NICOLAS19

2:32 AM ET

July 13, 2010

ignorance isn't a bliss

Africa as perpetual revolution... so is South Africa revolting? Is Ghana revolting? Is Botswana revolting? It war the American ignorance and greed that led to this war in the first place, so please stop these "silly Africans, hateful Muslims" racist comments and see to the question in hand. It might come as shock, but Afghans, Pakistanis, Iraqis (or citizens of African countries for that matter) are people too. They don't want misery, they don't want to die, they don't want to become terrorists, they want to live their lives their own way. There were tons of articles, even here on FP about Afghanistan's past, how it was a civilized, cultured country before their first oppressors, the Soviets came in. That occupation thwarted the country's progress by decades. Now another oppressor came in, the US, and the same goes over and over again. Yet all you hear is how Afghanistan is reluctant to apply the Western model. Big f.ing deal. They don't have to.
Just out of curiosity: what has Rousseau to do with all this?

 

ARYABHAT

4:50 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Start afresh

Seems only 3 scenarios to fix Pakistani society.

1) Make it secular (like Turkey, pre-dominantly muslim but modern and democratic, secular state)from its Islamic identity as a first step. By force or by making it at least financially unviable state and then making secularism as a pre-condition to salvage it.

2) If not so, then break it up in its regions and de-nuke it, making Punjab - the real problem - more amenable to responsible behaviour that world expects from it.

3) Failing to do either of the two raises probability that one day a fanatic in GHQ will take over Pakistan and use Nukes indiscriminately or give it to LeT or Haqquani like state sponsored terrorist network under deniability of "Non-state actors causing damage to world and Pakistan needs help not punishment" clause. However, should that happen, world WILL use at least a limited Nuke retaliation.

Hope we will live long to see either option 1 or 2 happening, not option 3.

 

MARYSHELLY

7:06 AM ET

July 12, 2010

All the more reason to support India

This shows that the Pakistanis cannot be trusted and that we should give full military support to India. India is, after all, a vibrant democracy with a strong Hindu majority. Pakistan is a backwards country with a large Muslim majority which will always give support to Jihadis who seek to destroy "infidels" such as ourselves. The United States can gain a great deal by arming India (which has over a billion people) to act as a counterweight to both the Muslim hordes of Pakistan as well as China. Pakistan ultimately is affected by the anti Western propaganda of the Jihadis and their leaders and would like to blame an outside party for their poverty and miseducated ignorance. By supporting 1/ Supporting Israel, 2/ Maintaining an army in Iraq, and 3/ Supporting India (but also arming a co-operative Pakistani regime), the US can break the Muslim world at 3 points and prevent an Islamic state from rising up and attacking us.

 

ASHOK2718

11:21 AM ET

July 12, 2010

There are two kind of people in Pakistan

1) who say that India is poor
just to satisfy their ego
2) Who say that India is rich
and hence they should not be given any 'aid'

when they don't even know how aid (as in free aid) that pakistan(govt. = taliban) is getting
from
soft loans (low interest loans) or aid to NGOs that goes to India

Khan you have taken your pick

Now go Gun those 2nd category people because they are speaking against you

You come in 1st category assholes

 

MUSTNOTSLEEP14

7:16 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Pakistan deserves Taliban

Pakistan deserves Taliban rule. Hopefully "pious, Islamic" government is incredibly brutal towards the Pakistani people because, like I said, they deserve it.

 

MUSTNOTSLEEP14

7:24 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Seriously, why doesnt America

Seriously, why doesnt America support Sharia law in Pakistan? Most religious, stupid Pakistanis will probably love the idea and who knows, support for America might even increase. Pakistanis are too stupid to care for freedom, all they want is a government that blocks "offensive" non-Muslim pages from facebook. Pakistan is the least civilized place on the planet.

 

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8:00 AM ET

July 12, 2010

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BHARAT14

9:49 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Illetracy and ISI hand

Fact: Majority are iiliterate.
ISI and Army are the real powers, everyone is else (regarded) worthless.
Media is Powerful. Controlled by Taliban agents and Ruling elite(same difference).
ISI and ARMU control what the media publish, show and hear!
Till such time as power is in the wrong hands nothing will be resolved in the interest of the general public.

THE REST IS RED HERRING TO MISLEAD ONE AND ALL.

 

ARYABHAT

10:46 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Khan's great denial

Khan,

I admire your negative energy and identity. Pakistan is great because India is bad. Really?

As for honour killing, just google and see how many nos. you get for your beloved Pakistan and how many for India. allow me to remind you only of one Pakistani name - MUKHTARAN MAI! Not only she was gang raped, your President claimed that Pakistanis do claim being raped to get Canadian citizenship!

If Hindu women were confronted for having a drink in Pub, there was civil society protests in India against it. Now compare that with Pakistan! You can't even imagine a Pakistani woman beling allowed to have a drink in Pub. Could you? Forget drink, in Pakistan women are poured ACID for going without Burqa! Civil society protest, Zilch! Even women are FLOGGED PUBLICALY for just meeting a stranger - remember SWAT Video?

I can send you a long list of articles of persecution of Hindus, Shias, Ahmedis and Baloch in Pakistan. However, NO INDIAN will claim that India is great because of such bad condition of Paksitan.

Point I am making is your sub-consious negative identity that is inherent in every Pakistani. It isn't your fault. That is how Pakistan was defined. Part of India that is no longer India. A negative identity. You personify that.

I can only feel sad for you.

And feel happy that my forefathers saw to it that we demarcated a part of our own land and created this Gutter called Pakistan so as you can live there and don't bother us!

BTW, it might be useful for you to go back to your primary school and learn spelling of "hindu". I know, education is not good in Pakistan and so not your fault, but it will help you have some decent conversation in esteemed forums like this! Just a friendly advise!

 

AMJIDIQBAL

11:01 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Hindu radicalization

No doubt Pakistan is in the middle of crisis and we are revisiting ourselves. We Muslims have ruled over the world for more than thousand years specially on india and have contributed at large towards human knowledge and human civilization. Contribution of Muslims Scientists in Science and Civilization in Al-Indulusia are its evident. Indians are pretending that they are very clean. Look how hindus are killing their women on the name of honour, how many castes they have in hindu religion and lower castes people are used to treat worst than animal. They are abusing women rights, wife cannot marry after the death of her husband and in some cases she thrown in fire along the dead body of her husband and list goes on. Even today i have seen news that they more than 20 states are worst than african countries. Then their atrocities on minorites. They burned 3000 musims alive in Gujrat, and 1000 christian in 2008. Nowadays they are killing innocent kashmiris and innocent moists. India has problem with all her neighbours. My idea is india should further disintegrate into smaller states and every state should be independent.
ONLY WAY TO SAVE THE WORLD IS TO DISINTEGRATE INDIA AS A COUNTRY

 

ARYABHAT

11:39 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Horse manure

You muslims have RAPED and PLUNDERED India. You came as invaders and looter. In your religious barbarism you destroyed Indian temples and along with temples you destroyed India's centres of learnings. That is what caused the decay of India which crumbled with British came.

Name ONE University of centre of knowledge Islamic looters made in India! And before Islam or even Greek came, Nalanda and Taxila were great universities, just to name a few!

In India if there is honur killing, there is uproar of civil society. When whole village raped Mukhtaran Mai, your President claimed that Pakistani women claim rape to get Canadian citizenship!

Kashimiris and Maoists are INNOCENT! Kashmiris that blow up every other day Hindus in their homeland and Maoist that slit throat of poor villagers becuase they "suspected" them of giving info. to Police! You seem to be the one for whome Osama Bin Laden a Saint!

Muslims died in Gujarat like Hindus died, in riots. Incidently this riots started after MUSLIMS closed and BURNED an entire coach full of Hindu Men, Women and Children! 59 were burned ALIVE! Rest what happened was public fury. UNLIKE Gojra in Pakistan when Christians were killed and burned by Muslims just because a child used a page of Koran! See the BARBARISM of Pakistani ISLAM!

Disintegrating India is a PIPEDREAM that you can have till you go 6 feet under. Till then, 1971 Bangladesh war may be a good cause to wake you up from that Pipe dream. India has done that before and perhaps should do it next time and carve up Pakistan in Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and donate KP to Afghanistan and take PoK back to India! ahahahaha

 

ASHOK2718

11:56 AM ET

July 12, 2010

Just the text from your textbook

Tell me why do you strain your fingers to type that all ?

how many hours did you waste ?

Anyway keep save it in a file and paste it when a relevant issue comes

And about muslim contributions ho ho ho ho

there was a pakistani who won noble prize in Science. First in his country. In fact first in muslim world to win a science noble prize. He even got it written it on his grave "First Muslim to win a noble Prize" Then Pakistani police came and had cement put over the word Muslim

Because he was an Ahmaddiya

Ha ha ha ha (though this is not a joke)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam

And as for disintegration Asshole you have tried so many times. Go ahead try a few more times this is a rock solid wall of INDIAN UNITY. Each time you will get a pillar showed up your ass.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

3:19 PM ET

July 12, 2010

India is a pillar of democracy

A western can walk through Delhi or Mumbai or nearly any other city and feel safe. Compare that to Pakistan, where you risk getting kidnapped, put on film, and be headed.

Muslims - you can't play the victim when nearly every religion, race, and culture around the world is being attacked by your jihadis. Could it be that hindus, jews, buddhists, christians, animists all have done something wrong to muslims? More likely, you are just a violent, aggressive, and stone age bunch of people.

 

ASHOK2718

11:02 AM ET

July 12, 2010

How can FP allow this trash person to host all his blog here

are you listening FP ? This is off topic rant ?

I request you to please remove these. He can put these up whenever the relevant topic comes.

(PS BUT I can't wait to rebut all of what he posted. but just as a sample :

Hey khan, where did you get the moral authority to look down on Hindus ?

your prophet raped a nine year old.

 

VILKSSWEDEN

2:07 PM ET

July 12, 2010

We send pakistan aid and money while they spend their

national treasure on buying nuclear reactors from china. (The Obama administration objects to China selling nuclear reactors to Pakistan.)

Let the pakis take that money and use it for their own citizens rather than intensifying the nuclear race in the region.

Pakistan is a bunch of cavemen with 20th and 21st century weapons. It's man-children who can't behave, govern themselves, or act rationally. Take away their nuclear "toys" and let the 5 different provinces and multiple religious groups that make up pakistan slaughter each other all day.

 

DESIBEL

3:10 PM ET

July 12, 2010

Angry Pakistanis

Now where have I heard that before?

 

ALI

7:03 PM ET

July 12, 2010

The outcome

So the outome is, ek Pakistani ne sab Indians ki maa ko lun de ker rakh diya is conversation mein lol, khan sahab cha gaye ho jaise khan chahye hue hein india mein lol can't stop laughing...

 

ARYABHAT

3:12 AM ET

July 13, 2010

Ali is the classic Pakistani mindset

Is that all you could come up with Ali?

Reason, logic, rationality, things like that could not seem to have registered in your mind.

And you choice of language is evidence of why people all over the world HATE you PAKIS!

In mind, you are still the same CAVEMAN - BARBARIC, UNCIVILISED, and RAPIST whose proof of manhood is blowing up innocent children and then fucking girls in Jannat!

However, remember that after blowing up Kafirs, Allah sends people like you to a place full of Arabs, where you just eat and have sex with Arabs. Yes, As Camel in Arabia!

 

SSMAN

4:05 PM ET

July 13, 2010

Long Run Best Policy is To Have Separate Ecosystems

At its core, Islam and everything not Islam simply do not mix.

Islamic nations and Non Islamic Nations should mutually agree that the best policy is that Muslims thrive and grow in Islamic nations. So they manage their own ecosystem, thrive, adapt, reform, whatever, but in the end its their collective decision.

Muslims should accept that non Muslim nations will gradually reduce the percentage of Muslim population, primarily through immigration controls, then through normal attrition of a segment whose growth is halted. Offer incentives for Muslims to move out, allow for population exchanges.

Since it is a recognized fact that the non-Muslim segment of Islamic countries is declining, and hardly any non Muslims seek immigration in Islamic countries, Muslim countries need do little except allow non-Muslim citizens to emigrate.

This will take many years, but eventually the relative separation of these ecosystems will maximize global harmony with little complaints from anybody.