Venus Envy

America's ignorant, narcissistic anti-Europeanism is an embarrassment.

BY SIMON TISDALL | JULY 15, 2010

It fell to Barack Obama, as is often the case, to identify the problem. But, as is often the case, he had no solution. Speaking in Strasbourg, France, deep in the subsidized heartlands of the European Union in April last year, Obama deplored a growing mutual antipathy, bordering on open hostility, between Europe and America. Europeans were too often guilty of an "insidious" anti-Americanism while Americans had at times "shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive" of Europe's achievements.

To European ears, President Obama's analysis -- a characteristic piece of consensus-building -- appeared wholly reasonable, even unexceptional. On Thursday, Jose  Barroso, president of the European Commission, indicated his agreement, telling the British newspaper The Times, "The transatlantic relationship is not living up to its potential."

But in the United States, Obama's critique of American attitudes, his studied humility, and his implicit apology for the overbearing behavior of George W. Bush's administration was instantly condemned by some commentators as an extraordinary, unprecedented betrayal, all the worse because it was committed on foreign soil.

Beside himself with indignation, columnist and pundit Charles Krauthammer led the charge on Fox News:

"Obama says, 'In America there is a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world.' Well, maybe that's because when there was a civil war on Europe's doorstep in the Balkans, and genocide, it didn't lift a finger until America led. Maybe it's because when there was an invasion of Kuwait it didn't lift a finger until America led. Maybe it's because with America spending over half a trillion a year, keeping open the sea lanes in defending the world, Europe is spending pennies on defense. It's hard to appreciate an entity's leading role in the world when it's been sucking on your tit for 60 years."

Many Americans shared his fury. But in his eagerness to condemn Obama's European "apology tour" (as former Bush advisor Karl Rove later dubbed it), the spluttering Krauthammer inadvertently revealed that he suffered from the very problem Obama was trying to address. After all, it is one thing to disagree with a president and his policy. It is quite another to be so bitterly and scathingly contemptuous of an entire continent and its people, especially one that, for better or worse, is a historical ally and a close political, ethnic, cultural, and linguistic relation.

Uncertain whether to laugh or cry, Europeans ask: Is this sort of thing to be taken seriously? What is going on? For let's be honest: Krauthammer is a bit of a clown. And he has a very European surname.

Getty Images

 SUBJECTS: DIPLOMACY, EUROPE
 

Simon Tisdall is an assistant editor and foreign affairs columnist at the Guardian.

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NORBOOSE

7:55 PM ET

July 15, 2010

But where do you refute it?

You identify US anti-European sentiment, but you never refute its prime claim. Europe has grown out of touch with the real world and has ceased to have much influence on anything outside of Europe. I am generally anti-Europe. Within a half-century, I believe it will be utterly irrelevant. You never seem to make any argument against that belief. You just give it a name. If you can label it, its automatically discredited?

 

TRUTHAGENT88

9:47 PM ET

July 15, 2010

US anti-Europeanism, or US pro-Imperialism?

The problem with US anti-European sentiments is that these endure much more as a reaction to and displeasure with old-time patronizing European attitudes towards their post-colonial (and comparatively neophyte) cousins in the New World, as well as past geopolitical impotence of the younger USA vis-a-vis the European colonial powers when these still ruled wide swaths of Africa, South and Southeast Asia, not to forget the Western Hemisphere. Europe had found self-confidence basking in a sense of superiority, having found Enlightenment and a depth and virtue via its multi-millenial history, i.e. a consciousness and continuity of collective memory and thought which even spawned the USA (and not vice versa, something not to be overlooked). Indeed, quite possibly, American ridicule (and occasional contempt) for their Canadian neighbors to the north may have to do with their unsevered ties to the Olde World, having remained in the Commonwealth and thus sharing in the legacy of British Empire... a reminder of that more ancient culture which challenges American egos.
Thus Americans have frequently felt compelled to compete with Europe economically and geopolitically, and so also came sweeping into Europe during two great wars, not merely to restore peace and order, but also to pick up the pieces... alas, Americans too have pined for power and empire, to stand as equals with Europeans, if not to stand taller than Europe, an ambition which was ultimately satisfied with the outcome of WWII. It would be simplistic to suggest that this outcome was merely a consequence of American goodwill filling the void created by European imperial squabbling and discord... it most certainly also was helped by American egos feeling an urge to reign supreme. American elites too easily fail to see themselves as they are, just as hungry for wealth and empire as the Europeans of old.
Therefore, that Europe is now a patchwork of weaker and ununified nation-states, lacking great resource wealth and looking upon the goodwill and protection of other, greater powers (empires no less... the USA for one), is neither an accident nor actually an unwelcome circumstance for Euro-bashing Americans... it provides fuel for mockery and some degree of chest-thumping, that's true... but it also guarantees that individually, Europeans cannot be heavyweights on the global stage...
The real question ought to be: What kind of world does the USA intend to build on the "ruins" of the old European Empires? If it is to look like a patchwork of Banana Republics ala Honduras, Guatemala, Columbia, the Phillippines, or other (choose your favorite), how can America's political leaders persuade a well-educated and legitimately cynical European public that they should support such an otherwise regressive and unenlightened future for the planet?
Anti-European Americans seem to overlook the fact that Europeans have largely moved on from jingoistic imperialism, not out of moral and cultural weakness, but rather out of the strength of their own self-respect and dignity, i.e. via evolution and lessons learned in at least two global imperialistic conflagrations... the American anti-Europeans really wouldn't have it any other way, and all the bickering has more to do with their inability to make even further inroads of domination over their one-time rivals, i.e. extracting tribute in the form of soldiers and armies.
Why should Europeans, or any other nation for that matter, cooperate with America's self-serving imperial ambitions, when these ultimately do more to destablilize the world, subjugate entire civilizations to Wall Street finances (Latin America), and reap endless wars (Iraq) and populations of hungry (Haiti) and desperate (Gaza) innocents...?

 

AKAMAD

9:43 PM ET

July 15, 2010

Refute

Europe has a larger population than America. Europe has a larger economy than America. Europe (EU) is expanding and in half a century will reach from the Atlantic to the Pacific, from the Artic to the Middle East. Despite spending more on defence than the next 40 countries combined, America's attempt to dominate the world is over and America is in relative decline. The people who are out of touch with the real world are those who said that Iraq was going to be a cake-walk. The people who are out of touch with the real world are those who didn't notice they were losing in Afghanistan for 5 years. The people who are out of touch with the real world are those who don't know which language English speak !!

 

MARKPEAR22

10:16 PM ET

July 15, 2010

I thought FP was above the "Stupid Americans" fray

... I was wrong. This seems to be the majority opinion of foreigners with whom I've spoken. Gotta say, it's just as facile as the jingogasms popular with the far right hawks. The role of the US is to pursue its interests (as defined by political mandate), not to create a world of duckies and bunnies. Arguing that the US is malevolent or incompetent is fine, but what is the alternative? Assuming the US makes substantial cuts to defense spending, like it or not we may soon find out. Are proponents of this thinking prepared for a world in which the US can guarantee its defense, but not theirs? There will be consequences to the geopolitical shifts many of you so eagerly await.

 

LENAWASH

12:22 AM ET

July 16, 2010

+1

+1

 

ZAOTAR

2:43 PM ET

July 16, 2010

"Anti-European Americans seem

"Anti-European Americans seem to overlook the fact that Europeans have largely moved on from jingoistic imperialism, not out of moral and cultural weakness, but rather out of the strength of their own self-respect and dignity, i.e. via evolution and lessons learned in at least two global imperialistic conflagrations... the American anti-Europeans really wouldn't have it any other way, and all the bickering has more to do with their inability to make even further inroads of domination over their one-time rivals, i.e. extracting tribute in the form of soldiers and armies."

Really? I could've sworn the French moved on from Jingoistic imperialism only after their collapse in hideous imperial failures in Vietnam and Algeria, that the Spanish empire collapsed from weakness at the turn of the century, that the Italian and German colonial expansions fell to ashes in WII, that the British were largely kicked to the curb by resurgent nationalism in India et al ... and so forth. Describing the collapse of European empire as if it was "out of the strength of their own self-respect and dignity" is hogwash. Really the only European empire that didn't suffer an almost total world-wide defeat and ejection prior to its change of heart on colonialism (i.e. a change following collapse into total abject weakness) was Britain, but even Britain had abandoned its role as a colonial power due to its weakness, rather than due to some refined nobility of the spirit. As Wiki puts it:

"The growth of Germany and the United States eroded Britain's economic lead by the end of the 19th century. Subsequent military and economic tensions between Britain and Germany were major causes of the First World War, during which Britain relied heavily upon its Empire. The conflict placed enormous financial strain on Britain, and although the Empire achieved its largest territorial extent immediately after the war, it was no longer a peerless industrial or military power. The Second World War saw Britain's colonies in South-East Asia occupied by Japan, which damaged British prestige and accelerated the decline of the Empire, in spite of British victory. Within two years of the end of the war, Britain granted independence to its most populous and valuable colony, India."

But by all means, let us pretend that Europe's noble spirit arises from its educated civility, rather than -- as Kagan correctly observed -- the fact that its imperial power had collapsed from within. How very European to misdescribe that bitterly-contested collapse of European imperial power as if it were the refined product of civilized choice.

It's ironic that the US and Europe have exchanged dueling hypocrisies. The prevailing social viewpoints in both regions are, for the most part, utterly delusional, for opposing reasons. Neither viewpoint gives an accurate or realistic description of its actual relation to political power, instead indulging in ridiculous moralized distortions of their conduct. In the US, typically our aggression is glorified as a free moral choice. In the Europe, typically its forced collapse into weakness and interdependence (including dependence on immigrant labor) is glorified as a free moral choice. Nonsense, all of it.

 

ANDREWP111

10:15 PM ET

July 17, 2010

Not so fast

The expansion of the EU will come to an abrupt end if they don't get their act together, and fully federalize the EU under a true central government. Right now they have a half-baked imitation of the real thing. It has a Central Bank and vastly meddlesome regulatory powers, but it lacks the direct taxing, fiscal, judicial, military, and plenary powers required to deal with a deflationary collapse. If major EU banks start failing under post-Lehman like electronic bank runs, the current political structure will not be able to cope. They will either adapt by fully federalizing, or the whole thing will blow up.

 

SCEPTIC

4:10 PM ET

July 18, 2010

Sweden, is that a country?

Columbia, is that a country? Perhaps just a typo, but it takes some of the wind out of your sails.

 

ZONEMIND

1:27 PM ET

July 20, 2010

Uh…

You say that like the US isn't also utterly dependent on immigrant labor.

 

ZONEMIND

1:33 PM ET

July 20, 2010

There are always

There are always consequences, and the Devil you know is very rarely a valid choice. There will be change. Europe has essentially recovered from WWII, China has surpassed her position at the end of that conflict. The wealth America took for granted, as the only surviving industrial center in the world, is rapidly cascading away.

Now is a good time to be jingo, but you'll want to be able to deny it in a decade or so.

Also, speak at least one other language.

 

JIMMYBOBBY

10:37 PM ET

July 15, 2010

Words

It seems to me that a lot of what has been labeled "Anti-Europe sentiment" is merely indifference to Europe. I don't know to many people who are actively hostile toward Europe, but I know plenty who feel it's a nice place to visit but wouldn't want to live there. Seems a bit touchy for Europeans to interpret this as some kind of animosity.

 

COUNTCHOCULA1011

11:29 PM ET

July 15, 2010

chhh....Europe

1. The French are pompous asses. Anybody that wants to understand the difference between the French and us Americans need only watch the scene in HBO's John Adams in which Adams arrives at the French court; compare the way Adams looks to the ridiculous, powder-faced jackassery of the French.

2. I dislike Britain in principle. They're weak, slack-jawed morons that have allowed their government to mutate into a 1984 style system. I also dislike the fact that people can be brought to court over doing things that upset their neighbors. And I also dislike them as a sign of respect for the people that died defending us from their tyranny. The fact that they still have a queen that sucks them dry doesn't help either.

3. Italians are cool. A little racist, but otherwise they're alright.

4. The only thing I have to say about the Dutch is that, during a recent vacation, I passed through the Netherlands on my way back home and I have to say: the Dutch are the pastiest people I've ever seen in my entire life. I swear, it's like I saw Draco Malfoy clones all around me.

5. The Irish are cool. Anybody that's fought against the British is cool with me.

6. Germans are weird. They're nice and all, but there's just something about them that I can't put my figure on.

7. I haven't had much contact with any Spanish people, so...

8. The Greeks: too obsessed with themselves and the accomplishments of Greek people that lived thousands of years ago. I also don't like how they feel the need to add "Greek" before so much of their food and drinks. Everybody knows you didn't invent Turkish coffee!

9. Scandanavians: the only thing bit of culture to come out of the region for the last 20 years (death metal)=garbage.

10. And Eastern Europe countries are too insignificant to care about.

 

JIMMYBOBBY

12:25 AM ET

July 16, 2010

To repeat myself

Still, your take seems more like disinterest than dislike. Come on, you haven't had a great meal in France? Or enjoyed the breeze on a Greek island? Have you turned your laser-like eye of criticism on dear old America recently -- you know, where people run their lives according to fairy tales, insist on arming themselves with deadly weapons and will buy anything they're told they should own?

 

COUNTCHOCULA1011

3:49 AM ET

July 16, 2010

Guns are the great equalizers

Without guns, America would just become another Britain. The 2nd Ammendment is the shield over which all other ammendments take shelter. Not to mention, only a fool thinks the police will be able to save him in case of an emergency. The cops take forever to respond to a break-in or some other situation in which one's life could be at risk.

 

NICOLAS19

6:29 AM ET

July 16, 2010

any further questions?

That good man perfectly symbolizes what is this all about. He knows nothing (nothing at all) about Europe, its countries, differences, history, or way of life, yet all he talks about how bad the other side of the Atlantic (provided that he knows where the Atlantic) seems to be. So full of America, that he labels all other cultures (ten times older than his) „garbage” or „insignificant”. My only hope that he’s a 8 year old child, because if he’s considered a grown-up in the US, you are seriously doomed. Make no mistake, the author of the article isn’t much better as he doesn’t even know that the president of the EU Commission is José-Manuel Barroso, not some Jose Borroso.

 

NORQWEDTS

11:14 AM ET

July 16, 2010

This is exactly the kind of

This is exactly the kind of attitude I believe the writer was trying to describe. Different countries have different ways of expressing themselves and just because you don't feel like their contributions, whether they be towards politics, culture, or whatever they happen to be about, are relevant in the modern world is not really your place to bash them, you can criticize, yes, but saying that countries are inadequate based in outdated social prejudices is wrong in almost any way imaginable.

 

JUVHAG22

5:28 PM ET

July 16, 2010

Not to defend the original

Not to defend the original author, but this type of thing could have been written by a European describing the various regions of the U.S. Cultural arrogance is not just an American phenomenon.

 

SOCIALCHRONIC

9:39 AM ET

July 17, 2010

lol

lol... oh man they are going to pile up on you. I understand though haha...

 

COUNTCHOCULA1011

5:44 PM ET

July 17, 2010

Really people?

Apparently nobody can take a damn joke.

 

SCEPTIC

4:33 PM ET

July 18, 2010

Europe as "old"?

The US has had the same form of government under the same Constitution since the end of the 18th Century, with the same three branches of government, and holding federal-level elections every two years and presidential elections every four years. What European country can say that their own form of government has been as stable, as mature, as developed -- as civilized or cultured? France, England (or whatever name is fashionable this century), Germany, Spain, Italy, Portugal? The UK only created a supreme court in the past few years, for heaven's sake, though one could generously credit their form of government to the Act of Union 1800, a mere decade or so after the US Constitution was adopted.

The US just developed more quickly than Europe, freed from and educated by the historic detritus north of the Mediterranean. I love European culture and enjoy watching it develop, albeit mostly from afar, via this Internet thing we Americans invented.

 

JAMESYAR

10:59 AM ET

July 19, 2010

The irony is

that only a Brit would have know you were being ironic.

Surprisingly witty, for a dumb plastic paddy....

 

KNOWITALLEUROPEAN

3:54 AM ET

July 23, 2010

well, choke on this, chocula

1. the French are well-dressed and articulate pompous asses with lower unemployment rates, and you hate it, dontcha?
2. well, I guess you missed every possible history lesson, didn't you? well, FYI, at least one of your ancestors was British, probably. unless you're a plant of some sort...
3. yeah, Italians are cool. for they put up with you dumb Americans all year round as you may be the only nation capable of stuffing your faces with overpriced and lousy tiramisu and cappucinos and of thinking that's 'delicious'
4. the Dutch may be the pastiest people on Earth, but you loved their coffee shops, right?
5. not the anti-brit movement again, for pete's sake... it was centuries ago, snap out of it.
6. Germans are polite, my savage friend, that's why you're calling them weird
7. yeah, you left Spain to the Brits, this time around...
8. funny how you did not dislike the Greek food itself, although it was actually Greek.
9. the Scandinavians, however, are amongst the happiest people alive. stinks, huh?
10. Eastern Europe & insignifiant (and wasted on you), geography lesson: it includes the European part of Russia and its, as well as Ukraine's, nukes. plus the Russian 'grey' money you're so running after these days.

now let's see if you're capable of arguing with me (which I suspect you aren't) instead of bitching about speedos, nudity (well, we're secure enough and good-looking enough for both) and snails.

 

NICOLAS19

6:32 AM ET

July 16, 2010

"protecting the world"

I love how Americans consider themselves protectors of the world. They disregarded their own Monroe-doctrine to intervene in Europe, came for the spoils when the Nazis were already broken by the Soviets and ever since they start one war after another. You call this „protecting the world”? The only thing the world needs protection from is American colonialism!

 

BRANDON

9:50 AM ET

July 16, 2010

Time to feed a troll

As a Canadian, I find myself somewhere in the middle of this rock throwing - Europeans undoubtedly think us as dumb as Americans, but not as arrogant, and Americans thinks us as soft as Europeans, but, again, not as arrogant. Both see us as a metaphorical nephew they like alright, but doubt will ever get laid, and certainly doesn't belong at the grown-up table at Christmas.

That being said, it's time for the retarded nephew to put Nicolas19 in his place:

What exactly were "the spoils" of WWII? You mean where the United States gave Europe $25 billion in aid and under the Marshall Plan in the five years following the war (about 2% of American GDP each year)?

Further, the first America troop arrived in London in late January 1942, they first saw active service in mid-August of '42, the Battle of Stalingrad began in September of '42 (which I assume is where you consider the Soviets to have "broken" the Nazis).

The Americans first bombed Germans _in Germany_ (at Wilhelmshaven) a week before the Soviets were victorious in the battle of Stalingrad, and the corner was turned on the war.

It's been a bad decade for the Americans, but one hell of a good century (and a half).

 

AKAMAD

1:47 PM ET

July 16, 2010

Canadians

We don't think Canadians are dumb. You're living proof that the wrong side won the American War of Independance ! lol

 

ZAOTAR

3:06 PM ET

July 16, 2010

Yes, surely the Americans

Yes, surely the Americans intervened *in World War I* because we wanted the "spoils" of intervention, whatever that was supposed to be. What did we get out of that intervention, exactly? And then again in WWII. The 'tards that buy this kind of propaganda never seem to remember that there was a little war in the Pacific, and an event called Pearl Harbor, that actually brought the US into World War II, and convinced the US to join.

In fact the US had already begun its draft in 1940, well before the Soviets "broke" the Nazis. Learn a little history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System

And, incidentally, the Nazis declared war on the US first, not the other way around. Yes, gasp, you heard it here first. Japan declared war on the US on December 8, the day after Pearl Harbor. The US declared war on Japan the same day. In response to that declaration of war on Japan, the Germans and Italians declared war against the US on December 11. In response, that same day, the US declared war on the Nazis and Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States

Learn a little something. The idea that America's declaration of war on Japan and Germany *in December of 1941* was an attempt to cash in on Soviet victory is stupid beyond all mortal description. Btw, note that the Soviets, by contrast, did not declare war on Japan until after Hiroshima was bombed.

And yes, this guy is undoubtedly a troll, but blasting a troll every once and awhile is fun.

 

JUVHAG22

5:33 PM ET

July 16, 2010

The Soviet war on the Eastern

The Soviet war on the Eastern Front was significant, but you overlook two things ... 1) American economic aid for Soviet war material was crucial and 2) American war with Japan protected the Soviet Far Eastern flank

Your argument is the flip-side of the usual American claim to have "saved Europe" ... in truth, it was the Americans, Soviets, British, Canadians, Australians, Indians (I could go on) that saved Europe ... oh, and don't forget the Europeans themselves!

 

TVM

2:14 PM ET

July 17, 2010

Japan declared war on the US

Japan declared war on the US on December 7th not 8th. Pearl Harbor did commence before the legal state of war - due to a faulty translation (or telex) machine in the Japanese embassy in Washington.
As for the Soviet intervention in the Pacific War according to the term at Yalta the Soviets would enter the Japan three months after the conclusion of hostilities in Europe. This is the time needed to shift forces from Europe to Manchuria.
While for the most part I found the article amusing if uninformative and clichéd - on the other hand some of the responses have not been at the usual caliber I have come to expect from FP readers. Perhaps this is a reflection of the deep emotional nature of the present controversy between the Atlantic Partners.

I never think of Europe as "Europe", although I have noticed some young people who refer to themselves as European as opposed to Swedish, Dutch, whatever. I submit that a more realistic approach to "European Policy" is to think of The UK, France Italy , Poland etc as member states of an trade confederation i.e. Germany prior to 1866. Europe as a whole seems to be incapable of making up it multi-layered bureaucratic mind about anything other more taxes, more regulation, etc. The teeth of any European foreign policy (hard power that is) can only come from the two pricipals with over the horizon military capability and the proven will to use force. European soft power is only capable of being exercised finically (yes even in these times ) by a handful of the largest econmies - we all know which ones-. Culturally the small number of nations who have over the extra eurpean post imperial cultural links.
Regardless, the reality of the lack of hard power and the limited capacity of European soft power, - I prefer the to use the term emergence of a multipolar world. The Atlantic Alliance is more crucial now than ever. As much as the Europeans may find anti Americanism (along with anti Catholicism) to be an acceptable , even fashionable prejudice. I am sure a second thought about a world dominated by a lawless China, expansionist India, reckless Iran, and rapacious Russia should send shudders down their self satisfied spines. I know it does mine

 

PWK

2:24 PM ET

July 17, 2010

An Anglo-American's Viewpoint

I'm British born, but have lived in the US many years -- I now have both citizenships. So I've heard plenty of anti-European nonsense over the last three decades (though much of course is good-natured joking from friends).

First, the idea that the US entered the war "when the Nazis were already broken by the Soviets" is obviously the comment of someone who hasn't the slightest idea what he's talking about.

However, one thing that slightly irritates me is the idea that somehow the US "saved your ass" in WWII. This is a bizarre rewriting of history. Most of the dying was done by the non-American allied forces; the US got off pretty lightly. (To say nothing of civilian casualties!). Would the allies have won without the aid -- in particular the financial and industrial aid -- of the US? Probably not. But what kind of world would the US have lived in had Germany won in Europe and thrown its support behind Japan? What kind of world would the US have lived in with a nuclear-armed Germany and Japan?

The fact is Europe saved America's "ass" by fighting and dying for two years before the US entered the fray, just as much as America saved Europe's. It was a partnership, and both sites needed the other.

BTW, as for American ignorance about Europe ... these stories are true. As a Brit in the oil business, working with many other foreigners, I can remember a number of "can you believe he/she said that!" stories, such as the American driller's wife in Colombia asking a friend what language we spoke in England, to the young woman in Dallas asking what Europe was ... "some kind of country, like America?"

 

SCEPTIC

4:08 PM ET

July 18, 2010

Oh, Canada?

Americans don't give much thought to Canada at all, thank God. Sign of a good neighbor. In my neighborhood the only neighbor I think too much about is the one that makes too much noise pulling out of its driveway. We spend much more time thinking about Mexico, frankly. Or of Paris Hilton and Brangelina.

 

LYSSA77

6:28 PM ET

July 22, 2010

LOL!

You're funny Brandon. I'm ashamed to say that your assessments are correct. It is kind of like when I talk from someone from the South. I assume they must be dumber than me. It is usually not the case and I'm secretly embarrassed that it came to my mind in the first place. Will you forgive me? LOL!

 

LYSSA77

6:37 PM ET

July 22, 2010

The Queen's English

Perhaps she was jesting. I know for myself, that the further north I go into England, the harder it is to understand "English". It is as if, for every 100km you travel north, another marble is placed in the mouth of the speaker.

 

BOBCHEN

7:26 AM ET

July 16, 2010

Anti-Europe is Anti-West

I don't think there is a hostile attitude in America towards Europe, and vice versa. It's more of a dismissive attitude, with a sprinkling of contempt. This is sad to me, given that without Europe there would be no Western civilization and all of the great things they brought to the world. A majority of Americans share a cultural, historical, spiritual, and racial kinship with Europe, and that is something they should never deny.

However, I do believe that Europe has lost it's way, no longer are they the magnificent innovators and empire-builders of their father's time, opted instead for a slow demographic and cultural death . But they are as well be a mirror to America's eventual fate. This saddens me. At a time when America and Europe are drifting apart, they should be working closely to save Western civilization.

 

ENIGMA

7:37 AM ET

July 16, 2010

It's apparent

from many of these comments that the author is right about anti-European bigotry. If you are indifferent to Europe, or just disagree with how they operate or whatever, fine. But this beliggerant crap about them being weak and decadent, balh blah blah is just garbage. Who are you to tell an entire continent how to live? The US has been spolied, both literally and figuratively. We are lucky to be safely tucked between two oceans and have no real threats on our borders. We have not had our entire continent destroyed in two world wars, if we had, maybe we'd be a little gunshy as well. It's perfectly fine for the US to follow its self-interests, but hating on Europe just because it's different is sheer childishness. Chest-thumping American exceptionalism is for shallow meatheads who need to feel superior.

 

COMMENTARIAT

9:02 AM ET

July 16, 2010

Really?

Citing "American ignorance" as a major source of weakness in the U.S.-EU relationship is as intellectually dubious as it is insulting. The smug superiority that underlies the arguments in this article seem to imply that America would completely embrace Europe if we could only over come our crippling ignorance. The author cites waitresses in Arkansas, Bible Belt Evangelists, and Mid-West Xenophobes as proof of this fact. These observations are entirely anecdotal, with the exception of a paper from the European University Institute, which seems to suffer from the same observer bias problems. The actual problems in the U.S.-EU relationship are far wonkier, and are rooted in differences of policy, not the alleged ignorance of average American people. One need only take a cursory look at the UK, for example, to see that these problems are not unique to the good old US of A. British school children can't find the UK on the map (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6074202.stm) and the BNP has been elevated to a position of social and political prominence (U.S. politicians at least have to politely veil their racism). Additionally I can't help but wonder how intelligent the average UK waitress or cab driver is...

Furthermore, it seems that author seeks to edify himself and his fellow Europeans by arguing that opposing Europe is central to America's identity. Don't flatter yourself big guy, there's more to us than that.

I agree wholeheartedly that relations need to be improved, but this appears to be more of a political than cultural problem. Stop calling us stupid and look at the issues. The "dumb American" argument is easy to make, and might make you feel good about yourself, but it doesn't begin to explain the problems in our relationship.

 

SCOTTM2009

5:30 AM ET

July 20, 2010

best comment in the thread

Mr Tisdale does indeed provide a few anecdotes from waitresses, etc - and never once wonders whether waitresses in Europe have a clue about geography beyond their own neighborhoods. Nor does he note that anti-americanism is hardly new in Europe - its pedigree reaches back centuries, not just the 'decade of Bush'. The article betrays the hypocrisy of its author - his own prejudiced attitude is based in ignorance as much as any American's.

 

LYSSA77

6:40 PM ET

July 22, 2010

At Scott

LOL! As if the waitresses in Europe have time to stop and chit chat. You better have your order in line and no special requests! Tip over 10% - well then - you're just showing off.

 

ZORRO

10:02 AM ET

July 16, 2010

Belief is the difference

Americans believe in things, Europeans does not. I'm generalizing of course, but I think that is the heart of the problem. The similarities obscure this critical difference and makes a lack of understanding inevitable.
Despite this I expect that, some, common interests will make Europe and the U.S. continue to stumble in the same direction.

 

RICEANDBEANS

10:16 AM ET

July 16, 2010

It’s interesting he first

It’s interesting he first cites Krauthammer. Sounds like self-righteous Euro internationalists and Neocon Zionists arguing over who gets to be America’s number one freerider.

 

AST16

11:04 AM ET

July 16, 2010

It goes both ways

The writer brings up several annecdotes like a cab driver in Virginia not knowing about the UK but you could also fill an article with stories of American tourists being treated like garbage in France or lectured about Bush in Germany. These stories only encourage negative stereotypes. On my tripts to Ireland, England, Germany and Italy I always found the people nice, fun and respectable.

 

BOUNCE

2:21 PM ET

July 16, 2010

YES, WHY CAN'T WE GET ALONG?

Hmm, Mr. Tisdal says Americans are xenophobic, opportunistic, shallow, uninformed, envious, suffering from, by turns, cultural inferiority and superiority complexes and are both ignorant and indifferent to things European.

Of course, Mr. Tisdall does provide a lot of psychobabble as evidence of America's deranged state of mind and unreasoning bigotry. Of course, Mr. Tisdall is also not short of all sorts of name calling. Mr. Krauthammer charges go unrebutted by Mr. Tisdall, but he assures us that Mr. Krauthhammer is a clown - with a European sounding name.

Then, after all the ad hominems and unsubstantiated anecdotes and gross generalizations, Mr. Tisdall asks why we all, Americans and Europeans, can't just get along.

With all of his irrefutable evidence, I'm beginning to wonder myself. How does one man mange to destroy his own argument by making it? Physician, heal thyself.

 

ASGOLD25

3:29 PM ET

July 16, 2010

Laughable

As others have commented, the US (both its government and its people) is more indifferent to Europe than antagonistic towards it. The myth in Europe of “American anti-Europeanism” likely originates from the distress in European policy circles that the US no longer deems Europe a strategic priority; it now plays second fiddle to East Asia, Latin America, and South Asia. Strange, as well, that you focus on the supposed strength of the EU, and the “success” of the Euro experiment as reason that the US needs to pay more attention to Europe. This, in a time of crisis that has exposed the massive divisions that continue to exist within the European Union, with the potential for the abandonment of the Euro more likely than ever. The failure of European countries to even try and develop a unified monetary policy is perhaps the best example of the fissures that remain wide open.

Beyond that, your article is filled with anecdotes and broad generalizations that I would only expect from a news journalist. The caricature of the woman who asked what language is spoken in Britain is especially funny to me because I’ve had Brits ask the same question to me about America. Your stereotypes insult the reader’s intelligence, especially your claim that Mid-Westerners are xenophobic, as you fail to see what is so obvious to the rest of us: anger towards the outsourcing of jobs is a very different thing than hatred towards immigrants. And speaking of xenophobia, I’ve seen worse racism in the most cosmopolitan of European cities than I have in the most rural, backwater towns in the American South. The US continues to succeed in integrating its immigrant population, while Europe can’t figure out why it continues to fail.

If anything, your piece is nothing more than a line in a long list of rants by Europeans about the US. You continually complain that the US is arrogant, that we don’t pay enough attention to Europe’s needs, that we are unwilling to work with you. You assert that our power is declining and that the 21st Century will be the Century of Europe. But the fact of the matter is that Europe has become irrelevant, while the US, perhaps less powerful than 10 years ago, is still top dog. The United States underwrites the global economic system while Europe sits idly by. So if you’re not going to pitch in, then just get out of the way and stop complaining.

 

ANDREWP111

10:32 PM ET

July 17, 2010

Why they sit idly by

They sit idly by because the EU's grotesque parody of a federal government is sort of like an odd, dystopian, imitation of the US Articles of Confederation with a central bank bolted on. Until the EU gets a real federal government, they will not be able to act as a truly unified entity.

 

PETER NORTH

3:57 PM ET

July 16, 2010

This entire concept is

This entire concept is reductive and silly: jaded, effete scion versus virile but uncouth brute. Surely there are better topics for discussion.

And since the notion that the shared values, heritage and perspective that unite the United States and its European allies are somehow less significant than than our negligible divisions is utterly risible, how about an entirely different, and bold, idea: that the citizens of all our respective nations unite more fully and effectively, shedding rather than reflexively embracing the artificial and political distinctions that would hinder such an effort.

 

JUVHAG22

5:17 PM ET

July 16, 2010

Flawed Analysis

Unlike many Americans I am neither indifferent nor hostile to Europe, having studied and admired it's culture and history for my entire professional (and personal) life. I even enjoy Tisdall's regular columns at times.

The analysis here is fair only in a certain context ... that of giving some examples of right-wing anti-Europeanism that is delusional and shallow. To use comments by U.S. citizens showing their ignorance of Europe is a bit weak ... they were not hostile nor anti-European, just plain stupid and naive. And dare we question some European (or Asian for that matter) citizens on their knowledge of the U.S. or other countries?

The fact that right-wingers like Lacquer (btw, he was born in Poland) and Thornton publish books that are hostile towards Europe is the same as taking every piece that is published in the author's own Guardian CIF pages as examples of rampant European anti-Americanism.

No doubt the U.S. and Europe will need each other in a more complex world which challenges their values and various forms of social organization. But the continued carping of normally balanced commentators like Tisdall will not help that cause.

 

URMEL

4:56 PM ET

July 17, 2010

Lacquer

Walter Lacquer was not born a Pole. He was born in Breslau, Germany. He had to leave to Germany because he was Jewish. Breslau was annexed by Poland in 1945 and renamed Wroclaw. The American historian Fritz Stern was likewise born in Breslau and has always insisted that the city of his birth was Breslau not Wroclaw. Nevertheless Stern has always been on very good terms with leading Polish intellectuals like Bronislaw Geremek.

Many Americans Jews of German roots are strong promoters of German-American cooperation: Henry Kissinger, Fritz Stern, John Kornblum and Michael Blumenthal. These men symbolize a relationship that is more profound than the squabbles caused by such ignoramuses as Mr. Crowd'ammer.

I would be very happy if some Americans could get rid of their German sounding names, because they are an embarrassment to my country. Suggested name change: Donald Duckblaster or Donald Blastfield.

Kind regards to our American friends

K. U.

 

MIKE 2

8:27 PM ET

July 16, 2010

ha, thats cute

All this arguing between the US and EU in kind of cute. Unfortunately, both the US and EU are becoming less significant every day. At the end of the day (and I hope I am wrong on this), China and India are going to be the next world powers. All this bickering whose continent is more insignificant is rather pointless. We're both insignificant. Deal with it. Europe had its day a few centuries ago. The US had its day between 1946 to 1995 (give or take). Empires get big, then the fall. Then they wait their turn to become world powers again.

Who knows, maybe Dufar will be the richest nation in the world bailing everyone out with foreign aid in 2500.

 

SCEPTIC

4:08 PM ET

July 18, 2010

China and India

China's growth can only depend on exports for so long 'til another, cheaper country or region takes their place -- Africa, are you listening? To sustain these growth levels the Chinese worker will need to become a consumer, at which point it also becomes accustomed to choices, and perhaps democracy. At that point we will have much different China.

 

WASTINGTONDC

11:40 PM ET

July 16, 2010

Speaking of ignorant, and embarrassment.

WastingtonDC:
America's ignorant, narcissistic anti-Europeanism is an embarrassment.
BY SIMON TISDALL | JULY 15, 2010

Read below, noteworthy Quotes, from Tisdall's unforgivable rant:

"the spluttering Krauthammer inadvertently revealed that he suffered from the very problem"

"Uncertain whether to laugh or cry, Europeans ask: Is this sort of thing to be taken seriously? What is going on? For let's be honest: Krauthammer is a bit of a clown."

"And he has a very European surname."

With the passing of WF Buckley, sapient Americans include the gentleman journalist Charles Krauthammer high up, on our short list to take our sainted Bill's place, as conservative spokesman in chief, for the endangered American Republic. His millions of fans agonize, hurting deeply and personally, with me, when our chief spokesman's incredibly heroic, and obviously painful efforts to overcome terrible health problems that Tisdall's editors are apparently unaware of, or simply choose to allow their staffer to mock in print, fail him, and "the very problem" that Dr. Krauthammer suffers from, becomes and impediment to his delightful commentary, as he speaks truth to power, for every American citizen. It is sickening to see these clearly hard fought medical symptoms so viciously mis-characterized, as "sputtering". Krauthammer's millions of American fans would I believe, instantly recommend that the writer be dismissed, as in my personal opinion, he would be, from any reputable media source, if my evolving opinion of the offense these quotes may well comprise proves correct.

Needless to say, Krauthammer's speech, albeit sometimes mildly impeded, and carrying with it, the pain his clearly medically caused condition shares with his millions of loyal fans, charms more viewers than all the failing Lame Stream Media networks can draw, together, during the time his commentary is aired, nightly.

We can skip lightly over the inanity of the unsupportable personal Tisdall attack quote, that ends in the lamentable word "clown", as we have not seen any representation that the author has the slightest standing to make such unfounded and unsupportable remarks.

The last quote, ending in "very European surname." does not allow of any comment that might be printed, in many of the very European countries Tisdall purports to have mastered a vast depth of knowledge about. Considering the widely disparate range of various European nation's liable laws, and criminal statutes in those countries still most justifiably sensitive to the WWII era crimes against humanity, including some millions of them with the same ethnic origins that I believe we have heard Mr. Krauthammer mention that he shares, during a recent holiday celebration, I would not dare approve that quote for publication, nor even mention here, the words to describe the possibly coyly veiled offense it might conceivably; in some jurisdictional quarters, be proved to contain.

Were I charged with editing the incredible series of quotes set out above, I would seek out, and bring to my publisher, along with my recommendation for summary dismissal of the writer, a legal staff's opinion, as to whether the publisher could possibly be prosecuted, or indicted for a criminal offense, by printing that last line, in some European jurisdictions. While the slight depth of my legal knowledge may well not exceed the depth of Tisdall's European history awareness, I personally find the whole tirade against a gentleman journalist, one who appears to be struggling with a wheelchair, morally repugnant, and I would inform the publisher of my personal opinion, that one or other European legal authorities might just hold that it matters not that it may have been printed innocently, or as a simpleton's snide stupidity that slipped by busy editors, or some non English speaking assistant, or one unaware of European history regarding it's possible ethnic offense potential. I would ask the publishers legal staff lawyers if it appears, on the face of it, that printing those four words, “a very European surname.”could be a criminal offense that would bring an indictment, in a number of European nations still cogently aware of the crimes against humanity committed in Europe, against the forebears, of our beloved Charles Krauthammer's "very European surname.

But then, I doubt an editor, or publisher that would allow many of those words to see print, would have any great concern for my personal opinions, or for those of several hundred million American citizens who revere one of our most courageous and capable journalists. Mr Tisdall might be more sensitive to our great conservative journalist’s situation, were he to have write a few million words as well received at those Krauthammer has published. If Mr Tisdall is ever shown to have rolled a few hundred miles in Charle’s wheel chair’s tracks, enduring the pain and inconvenience of similar medical conditions, and to have displayed one tenth the courage and grit, shear intestinal fortitude, that Charles has shown in producing his extensive and very well received content, while enduring the various medical, mobility, and other limitations it appears he may be suffering, I will not change my personal opinion, that this article is a vicious personal attack, on a vastly talented, and vastly burdened gentleman, but I will admit, that Mr Tisdall might have demonstrated that he has more standing, and possibly a better understanding of the matter, than those of us who walked, pain free, over to our computers to begin our daily writings.

 

NICHOLAS WIBBERLEY

7:50 AM ET

July 17, 2010

What Europe?

While it is possible to categorise the US, I don’t see it as meaningful to do so with Europe since the differences between European nations are too great. For all the paper shuffling that goes on in Brussels, Europe is basically an open trade area with a degree of cross-subsidisation but which doesn’t even share a language. If there is one thing that unites the disparate European peoples against the US it is distaste for those, apparently self-perpetuating, US military adventures to which they are expected to make financial and manpower contributions. US anti-European attitudes are probably little more than intuitive responses to that distaste fleshed out with stereotypical prejudices.

If there is any arrogance in the equation, it is visible in US attitudes towards the Europeans. I have in mind the huffing and puffing when a US student was found guilty of a murder that, while not perhaps uncommon in the US, was deeply shocking to the people of Perugia. Equally, there is a current move by the Senate to have the State Department look for links between BP and the release of the Lockerbie bomber, a move of such astonishing impertinence to the Scottish Judiciary that it can only be attributed to blind arrogance. Similarly, in this thread, we have COUNTCHOCULA1011 rabbiting on in sublime ignorance about things she does not understand, like the role of the Queen of England who is, quite independently, Head of State of 16 other nations, and Head of the Commonwealth which has a combined population of almost one third of all people on the Earth.

Having no extensive culture of its own, the US found one beyond the portal of Presbyterianism where the path leads back through Jewish history and Jewish mythology to the Garden of Eden. Most European nations, on the other hand, trace their cultural origins back through Rome and Greece, the world of the Hesiod and the azure chalice of the gods, and if they connect up with anything earlier it is likely Egyptian or Mesopotamian. In terms of very long scale developments this sort of thing has much deeper significance than might at first appear.

Since the Great Wars, the US has been confident that it has Europe in its back pocket. However, the button may be working loose. Russia is much closer geographically and, now it has shed Communism, its cultural affinities are re-emerging; the last Empress was a granddaughter of Queen Victoria, after all. Russia has the oil and gas that Europe needs, and while she is fierce as a guard dog, she is not a knee-jerk militarist I would not anticipate a complete break with the US in favour of alignment with Russia, rather something more like the line Turkey is adopting in its own field, right hand to one and left to the other.

 

LYSSA77

7:06 PM ET

July 22, 2010

Russia the friend?

Oh please. All the Euros I talk to hate that Russia has power over the ON/OFF switch to their fuel for cars and heating. They complain of all the rich Russians coming to their countries, treating everyone like crap, and buying up all the property. Please. Russia may be post Communism, but it is deep into corrupt politics and thuggary. Turkey? Have you gone mad? A country that was once a secular entity is now warping into a very Islamist type state.

 

SOCIALCHRONIC

9:33 AM ET

July 17, 2010

so um... yeah sorry to burst your bubble

But to be honest.. most Americans don't even think of Europe until we hear someone with a funny accent on television. The majority of the American population do not care what goes on over "there". I know that feeds into a lot of your stereotypes and this may make a few of my U.S buddies on here a little pissed.. but seriously.

I think the perceived problem lies more so with Europeans not willing to recognize that America is indeed, a completely different country with different aspirations and culture. Yeah we are free to work hard and buy stuff and soak up our pop culture (a point that seems to come up every time i encounter discussions like this one) but does that constitute us as dummies? why do we have to be so stupid all the time? I mean... how smart are the Europeans? Seriously i would really like to know the VAST difference

If you can tell by the tone in this forum, most Americans don't really have a problem with Europeans until broad generalizations about the U.S. are drawn. Especially if you've never been here. As mystical and different the asian culture can be i would never speak ill of it just because i don't understand.

An interesting thing about our culture is that we are bred to have natural juxtaposition on your criticism about us . we have this thing called "free speech" and debate is very much encouraged.. We can easily agree to disagree without harboring too many hard feelings. Trust me we know some of the foolisness we can convey TO EACH OTHER but that's the beauty of our country, you literally have the choice to do, be or say whatever the hell you want to. We are also very complex as we are presented with a myriad of images, cultures, creed's, religions, rhetoric daily and even if we aren't directly influenced by them. We don't pass judgment TOO soon unless something warrants us to do so. Not saying that there aren't any exceptions, but if we are making generalizations I figured i put some valid ones out there. ..

Most people in the US recognize that it's completely different thousands of miles across the ocean and don't expect too many similarities. Why can't more Europeans feel the same way?

every European i have met visiting the states have been literally SHOCKED at how nice we are over here. I mean every time i meet someone from pairs, London, Germany wherever that's the first thing they point out followed by a statement like or close to "i don't care what anyone says Americans are the nicest people on the face of the earth". freaks me out on so many levels

 

NICHOLAS WIBBERLEY

11:08 AM ET

July 17, 2010

Well said,

The above posting perfectly illustrates exactly the way things are. With equal validity, you might re-express a lot of it by simply reversing the names. The fundamental point, however, is that America is a nation state whereas Europe is a variously definable geographical area, and no more a nation state than South America or the Middle East.

 

JANJAMM

11:21 AM ET

July 18, 2010

Huh?

You're a ringer, aren't you. SNL aspirations?

 

LYSSA77

7:10 PM ET

July 22, 2010

I hear ya.

You've got that too? I feel like they are going to back me up like Annie did for Sandy in that back alley against all those boys - and I dodn't even nkow I was in a fight. LOL! "Who's first?" Remember that? Does anyone remember that part from Annie? What a great movie!

 

BRIANLV

12:09 PM ET

July 17, 2010

I suscribe to Foreign Affairs

I suscribe to Foreign Affairs and this article about US/Europe relations and it's imminent demise have been written over and over albeit by better writers. I am just getting sick of them.

Do Europe and the US have differences and disagreements, of course. When you look at our relationship in the context of past history it's a pretty amazing feat that our relations are as good as they are. Both sides are huge in population and economy but get along pretty well. I think this article and those like written lately are the product of writers that try to pick on these differences because let's face it if you write about US/European relations for a living there isn't much to go to press about. All the good foreign affairs stuff is coming out of the Middle East and Asia.

This article on it's own is poorly written. Adding anecdotes about the ignorant american. That's what hacks add to their writing because they don't have the intelligence to come up with something more germane. What are the big problems with US/Europe relations? No mention of trade problems nor of climate change disagreements just a litany of quotes and anecdotes. The real crime here is that an editor let this article get published.

 

MARKUSTEE

1:10 PM ET

July 17, 2010

Simon, you are an ignoramus.

First, you start by calling Krauthammer a clown. Then you go on to make his case for him. In your case, you have made a cogent argument and come up with the wrong conclusion.

Fact are facts, man. Your sentiment that Europe is somehow a leader is ludicrous. Europe - and every nation in it - does not have the collective leadership ability to make a decision to wipe your collective arses. Europe is a dying continent, a people that have such a strong entitlement mentality that they cannot work, a people that have such a narcissistic self image that they won't even reproduce. You are being taken over by the Muslims, within a generation or at most two, you will be under Sharia Law. And as an American, I generally don't give a rip. Take your socialism and let it be the coffin you die in.

Our current administration - Obama - is a weak, cowardly, scheming, conniving, and generally disgusting Kenyan. The backlash against him in this country for his sniveling and disgusting groveling in Europe will be strong. You mistake our patience and our trust in the electorate system for weakness and for following this poor excuse for a coward; we are not weak, we neither respect Obama nor do we follow him. Don't suppose that his overtures towards Europe or the rest of the world are shared by the American people. We seem to have caught this liberalism disease from you, but there are a majority of us that know this and are fighting back.

Europe has been sucking on the American tit since before WW2. Your whole generation is nothing but a bunch of weak, dependent, arrogant bluebloods. You rely on the strength that was in Europe generations ago for your boasting. Nearly every child of every strong man in the 1800's Royal Navy is now an American. But you forget that your inability to defend or rule yourselves is what led to our forefathers leaving Europe generations ago, and carving America out of the wilderness. The strong left, leaving the weak - your fathers. You prove evolution - at least, the smallest part of it. If you evolve into another species, it will be called homo cowardus.

Reading things like this cause me to despise Europe. You have no morals, no God, no conscience, no wisdom, and no humility. You pride yourselves on your intellect, but you know less than the ants in the ground - you fiddle while your cities burn, and you collectively pacify anyone that would kill you. You will starve when the winter comes, you grasshoppers.

I just hope my country does not catch your disease, for you are contagious.

 

AKAMAD

9:07 PM ET

July 17, 2010

1000 dead

If you despise us so much, why don't you spit on the graves of our soldiers and civilians who have been killed since 9/11. Figuratively, you already are.

 

SOCIALCHRONIC

8:33 AM ET

July 18, 2010

well damn...

GO TEA PARTY!

 

SDRAIO

6:11 AM ET

July 19, 2010

come ON!

ah ah ah ah!! everyon come and read what this guy Markustee wrote! "every child of every strong man in the 1800's Royal Navy is now an American"!!! ah ah aaahh!!

 

JAMESYAR

11:12 AM ET

July 19, 2010

I will accept

what you say, just as soon as you can locate Europe on a map.

 

LYSSA77

7:18 PM ET

July 22, 2010

MMmm - nope.

Too much. Too much venom. Take a deep breathe. Obama is one of ours - get over it.

 

NEOSKEPTIC

3:10 PM ET

July 17, 2010

Confused envy

Mr. Tisdall, you cherry-pick with anecdotes sprinkled with a few choice cliches to prove you biases and you confuse ignorance with indifference. About our inability to “win” in Iraq and Afghanistan, if our goal was and continues to be containment of a threat (think of anti-malware programs that offer quarantine and delete options), then we have largely been successful. Obviously, if winning means establishing political and economic stability, then we have a ways to go. The key here is that at least we're trying, which is more than can be said for most European countries. But these are political decisions to be recast and ridiculed by those who know better from behind their desks in ivory towers.

 

AKAMAD

8:47 PM ET

July 17, 2010

The Marshall Plan

If you define winning as meaning you don't have to fight the same war again, then it it does require establishing political and economic stability. It is a principle you applied to Europe successfully after WWII, but forgot in Iraq and Aghanistan. The sneering attitude to nation-building taken by American neo-cons has cost you tousands of lives.

 

TEASER38

5:08 PM ET

July 17, 2010

There is no "Europe" ...

all I see is a diverse set of middling states. The EU doesn't mean much as A world power. To get things done outside the EU, the US needs to negotiate with UK, Germany, France, etc.

I think there is a general frustration that there isn't A partner in Europe like there is in China or Russia.

Otherwise, nothing new here great powers will do as they will and weak powers will suffer what they must.

 

AND REW

5:25 PM ET

July 17, 2010

Europe/US

I think we should categorize our differences, some are simply differences and better remain that way and some are stuff that can be improved and should be learned from each other.

I personally disagree with many European policies however I think at the end of the day it's us and the Europeans who share a lot of things from culture to mutual interests and we shouldn't really get this anti-Euro out of control.

 

KARIN

8:14 PM ET

July 17, 2010

I have heard many description

I have heard many description of the US.

The one I like best is "The US is the Special Needs Child of the world. It is sometimes very clever, and sometimes very beautiful ... but you would not trust it with a pair of scissors."

 

AND REW

11:15 PM ET

July 17, 2010

Re

"Don't forget who saved your ass twice, buddy. If it wasn't for the good ole US of A you'd all be speaking German!"

*Cough* *Cough* You better do. *Cough*

 

FSILBER

12:41 AM ET

July 18, 2010

Mixing two issues

What we think is the future of Europe has nothing to do with whether we are pro-Europe. I think Europe's future is dim (for the reasons given in the cited books with this thesis), but I think America is also on a parallel downhill slide as the portion of our own population that is of European ancestry likewise becomes smaller and less moral. _Maybe_ the beneficiaries of our uncontrolled immigration will prove more assimilable than those of Europe, but that's no sure thing. My sadness for the future doesn't make me love America any less. Nor would my pessimism about Europe's future cause me to resent Europe.

As for Americans' feelings towards Europe, let's look at the numbers. Roughly half of Americans are Republicans, and Europeans have made their contempt for this half pretty obvious. We know this goes way beyond disagreement with Bush's Iraq policy -- that even if there had been no invasion of Iraq, Europeans would still despise us for various other reasons (e.g., being sincerely Christian, believing in the individual right to keep and bear arms, not abolishing the death penalty).

What Europeans may not realize is that this Republican half includes perhaps two-thirds the Americans of European ancestry (the Americans who would have been most likely to care about Europe). Among the Democrats, half of them I admit are white pro-European left-leaners, but the other 50% of the Democrats consists of blacks and Latinos. Black Americans are no more interested in Europe than the most insular white Americans; they vote Democrat in the hope of more money from the government , and they would tend to resent any policy that might divert money from domestic social programs to the defense of Europe. Latino immigrants largely stem from their home countries' lower classes; their ancestry is not so much European as Native American. For historical reasons, they tend to resent Europeans.

So Europeans have created the situation in which 25% of Americans are pro-Europe, 25% of Americans are utterly indifferent (at best), and 50% of Americans mirror Europeans' contempt for them. These are not such great numbers.

As for me, I have my own agenda. I, personally, will be as sympathetic towards Europe as Europeans are sympathetic towards Israel. Judging by the tone of the BBC, that's not very sympathetic at all.

 

CHIARADBR

4:10 AM ET

July 18, 2010

I'm not sure that America's

I'm not sure that America's ignorant, narcissistic anti-Europeanism is any more embarrassing than Europe's ignorant, narcissistic anti-Americanism. This article is a good example.

 

WANDERLUST

4:54 AM ET

July 18, 2010

Well said, that about sums it

Well said, that about sums it all up.

 

CHIARADBR

12:42 PM ET

July 18, 2010

Khan, when you and everyone

Khan, when you and everyone else stop blaming America for your problems and instead clean up your own governments, feeds your populations and empower them to contribute to their own, strong societies, America will not have the inordinate power it does. If America affects your country too much, that is because your leaders allowed it. Encourage and support your best and brightest to build your country up strong, get rid of corrupt leaders and theocrats. The world will never advance if it sits around waiting for America to take care of them, or waiting for someone to take down America. Regional alliances and governments that protect their people's rights and allow them to live happy, prosperous lives are the way you can combat the undue influence of the United States.

 

LYSSA77

7:34 PM ET

July 22, 2010

It's the JOOOOZ!!!!

Give it a rest Khan. We give Palestine (where is that on the world political map?) millions of dollars every year too. Palestine receives money from many other countries as well, and other countries (Iran, Russia, and Syria to name a few) are arming it to the hilt. Does the world do anything when it attacks Israel? Nope. Does the world step up when Israel fights back? You betcha. Israel has some seriously screwed up policies - but certainly no where as screwed up as the policies of the nation's surrounding it.

 

LOWDE2000

9:04 PM ET

July 18, 2010

Very Sad

You start out with "Europeans were too often guilty of an "insidious" anti-Americanism while Americans had at times "shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive" of Europe's achievements. " But all you wish to focus on is the Americans showing arrogance and being dismissive, even derisive part. You quote a handful of ill-informed Americans, as if they represent every American. When David Tennant (British actor, Doctor Who fame) was asked what the capital of Denmark was, he said Bruges. That doesn't mean that all, or most, British people would have answered that way, or that he is stupid or uneducated. Likewise, all Americans can not be held accountable for the question of a single waitress. That is poor journalism in the best of situations, but in this case it calls into question the validity of your entire discussion, or at least your ability of any level of objectivity.

 

UMESHGEETA

12:51 AM ET

July 19, 2010

America's Europe Problem

"The European collectivist "soft power" model is under serious challenge after the near implosion of the European Union's vaunted Constitution and amid bitter argument over Greece's bankruptcy bailout and the euro's possible collapse. The American "hard power" model has been undermined by the U.S. military's inability to "win" two major wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and by the global financial crisis, a capitalist heart attack from which the patient has yet to recover."

This is probably the crux of the matter and nearest what Tisdall comes to pin point what is going on here. My favorite argument is Americans see where the VAT lubricated entitlement train leads in Europe. With such high taxation, Americans see that Europe got addicted to unaffordable entitlement paying State and in the process lost any ability to compete with China and other emerging world powers. Americans fear that that is where this country will go. As is obvious, GOP and Tea Party are exploiting such a fear to the hilt (Health Care Reform bill is the blatant example of that). The collateral damage of this fear is the tendency to 'go away from anything European' within this country.

On the other hand, what would save Americans from their military overreach which is plundering their treasury and making them dependent on Chinese lending? Neither Europe has ever bothered to pay for any serious military capabilities after WWII nor any commendable & effective pacifist traditions are presented to the world by Europe. Essentially Europe has conveniently decided that USA is the police of the world, let it run the world, let it take the burden with consequent high military spending and modern Roman Legions on borrowed money while Europeans will continue to sip Chardonnay on their Mediterranean beaches. Further, Europe always does a great job of mourning and post killing 'communal healing'; but just don't ask Europe to do any preventive actions to stop any such killing. (Here is the link and photos of that shameful chapter in European history in recent times - Srebrenica massacre.) So it is not Europe where Americans are going to find any wherewithal or leadership insights to wean away from her mounting military engagements. If at all, Americans will have to return to their roots in history where so many of American leaders showed the path of 'intelligent isolation' and the approach of minding America's own business only. Europe does not come into the picture here and as a result - 'Europe, what is Europe?' reactions come from Americans.

"Don't forget who saved your ass twice, buddy. If it wasn't for the good ole US of A you'd all be speaking German!"

That was then, but present is different. I believe this is where Tisdall drops the ball. Obama Administration is sensing, rightly, that the center of gravity in Europe is slowly crystallizing with Germans even though not whole of Europe will be talking in German. Merkel's Germany, her Conservative policies and her emphasis on 'austerity in the middle of recession' do clash with Obama and the Keynesian philosophy his Administration generally follows. But Larry Summers and White House are not blind to see the admirable performance of the German Export machine, even though it is coming at the cost of other European nations. The way things are unfolding in post Euro crisis Europe, it is clear that either way - whether Euro remains a single currency progressing along the currently charted path or Euro unravels under the crushing weight of debt and subdued recovery - Germany is going to be the true power which matters. Given that, better relationship with Europe means practically keeping Germans happy. Naturally, Obama Administration and for that matter any American Administration, would like to simplify / reduce the task of managing foreign relations with Europe. Who wants to deal with the unwieldy contraption called Europe with all its contradictions so manifest when more or less the same result is obtained by dealing with only one single nation state called Germany? I am not sure whether it is the 'British thingy' which prohibits Tisdall to see the increasing super heavy weight status of Germany in the world affairs and blinds him from seeing how America is entailing more with Germany.

There is one more country in Europe which is likely to matter more in days to come - Poland which is on a solid economic and political upswing. Again it makes sense for America to focus on a specific country rather than spreading the love all cross the Europe. In other words, there is still lot going on in America's interactions with Europe, it is just that it is likely to be more focused on certain countries than the entire Europe as a single entity. That is how it should be too. Until the time these existing and emerging powers within Europe completely submerge their national interests with the European Union so as it becomes a cohesive, single political entity; it is hard to fault outside powers like USA when they interact more on individual nation by nation basis. Recent political and financial earthquakes in Europe simply encourage this trend.

http://www.21stcenturypolitics.com/

 

JOSEPHBAILEYALWAYS

8:00 AM ET

July 19, 2010

What do we need in Europe?

What do we need in Europe? Let the Europeans take care of their issues and close our bases, bring home the troops that are long overdue, and either let the Muslims, Russia, or whoever have at it.

The USA would do well to focus on Central and South America, Africa, and then Asia and quit giving a care about Europe. It is not worth defending. Europe is the source of two World War's, having to protect during the Cold War, everything in Africa is all tied back to the horrors of colonization, let it go and if it can measure up great but who cares otherwise?

 

LYSSA77

5:47 PM ET

July 22, 2010

Oversimplified

Euroweenie! I love it! That is what I call my Viennese husband. He calls me a Crapitalist! LOL! Seriously, it is true that many Americans don't know much (or care to know) about the outside the USA. Why? Because it is a big place. Our borders are vast. Those people in high immigration areas will know more because they come in contact with newcomers. Still, my husband goes on and on about how much "culture" we don't have, but yet, whenever I visit Europe, I have to pay to use every toilet, go down (or up) several fights of stairs to do so, and wait at least a day for clean clothes (since dryers haven't made it ot Europe yet). I'd rather be culture deficient frankly. I think you are wrong on a few points. Americans are indifferent and Europeans are more arrogant. Many of your points are valid though.

 

GUBBSE1

4:43 AM ET

July 28, 2010

Global Power Shift

Even with the numerous factual innacuracies in this article; Europe's unemployment and public deficit are both less than that in the USA and more importantly, European debt is not held predominantly by the Peoples Rebublic Of China, this article raises a number of relevant issues for our future relations.

The USA, Europe and whomever else, will continue to persue policies that best suit their own interest. As the USA's political and economic power ebbs, Europe will form alliances elswhere.

Once upon a time, not so long ago, the world looked to the USA for guidance and aspired to its values. They don't today.

 

AMANDA81

7:38 AM ET

August 3, 2010

I think this

I think this antipathy has real reasons. The main reason is the U.S. foreign policy. And there is nothing about it. Amanda from hidden object games news, crazy taxi tips, best mahjong clubs, hidden object games free.

 

BVSAD

11:44 PM ET

August 12, 2010

I was very pleased to find

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