Who Killed the Climate Bill?

We asked the experts who is to blame.

JULY 23, 2010

This is how a climate bill dies. On Thursday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid announced the bad news: “We don’t have the votes.” Without a single Republican backing the Clean Energy Jobs and American Power Act, the Senate's version of a comprehensive energy bill, there was no point taking it to the floor, he explained. For now, there was no way to move forward.

Reid’s announcement dealt a devastating blow to those hoping the United States would lead the way in aggressively curbing the greenhouse gases that scientists say are dangerously warming the planet. With time running out before 2012, when the current global climate treaty expires, negotiating a new agreement just got much harder.

So who’s to blame? Was it just a poorly crafted bill? Was there ever a chance Republicans would sign on to cap and trade? Did Barack Obama’s administration drop the ball? Or was it environmental groups themselves, who failed to persuade the public that now was the time to act?

FP asked five experts who have closely followed the debate for their verdict. Here’s what they told us:

Click here for: Bill McKibbenChristine Todd Whitman, Bruce Babbitt, Stuart Eizenstat, Paul J. Saunders,  and Michael A. Levi.

Bill McKibben:

This was never going to be an easy task. Dealing seriously with climate change means damaging the business model of the most profitable business the world has ever seen -- fossil fuel -- as well as disrupting the lives of every citizen to one degree or another.

Given that, we in the environmental community have made a mistake over the years in assuming that it would take an essentially "inside game" to win. That is, most of the big groups focused most of their efforts inside the Beltway, with expert lobbying of all kinds. The theory, I think, was that the simple fact that scientists explained we faced the worst problem ever, and that economists explained that we could deal with it, would be enough to win that action. But it wasn't.

We also needed -- and still need, more than ever -- an outside game, a big mass movement to get lots of people involved across the United States (and the world, since the dynamic is the same everywhere) in pushing for change. We took a first stab at it last year with our Global Day of Action and showed it wasn't impossible -- 5,200 demonstrations in 181 countries on the same day, "the most widespread day of environmental action in the planet's history." But that was just a start -- we're glad that people from around the broader movement are joining in on 10-10-10 (Oct. 10) for a big Global Work Party. It's an attempt to send a message to our leaders: "We're getting to work; what about you?" And in the United States this year that message will be delivered in an indignant tone. The Senate acted shamefully, but not surprisingly. We need to change the power equation, and since we'll never match ExxonMobil for cash, we'd better do it with bodies and spirit.

Bill McKibben is an environmentalist and scholar in residence at Middlebury College. He is author most recently of The Bill McKibben Reader.

Christine Todd Whitman: 

The failure to pass comprehensive energy legislation this year was the result of both a tenuous political climate and a failure on all sides of the issue to negotiate.

Among the earliest stumbles was when Barack Obama's administration tried to get a carbon cap through in the omnibus spending bill last year. Obama's backhanded action spooked a number of people who had previously shown willingness to listen. The "Climategate" email debacle then gave the naysayers an opening that, combined with the downturn in the economy, was enough to make the average person question the need for any action that might cost them a job or simply cost them more.

Adding to the fracas, environmentalists have hurt the cause by overreaching and implying that the sky is falling, so to speak. While the effects of climate change are certainly worse in some parts of the world, activists' warnings did not equate with what people were seeing here in the United States.

The oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico and Obama's slow response reduced the president's credibility in addressing the broader problem, leaving the appearance that he was using the spill as another backdoor approach to pass cap and trade. Unfortunately, the combination of all these factors turned the debate from focusing on good policy to playing politics, with neither side willing to give the other a win.

It's a shame that we find ourselves in this stalemate, as business leaders have not resisted capping carbon as some might assume they would. In fact, business leaders joined with environmental leaders before President George W. Bush's 2007 State of the Union address to ask him to create consistent federal rules on carbon emissions.

A straightforward energy bill that emphasized clean energy and conservation had a chance of passing and would have started the process of reducing America's greenhouse gas emissions. One thing is for sure: We need a comprehensive energy plan for our nation. The United States is energy dependent, and our needs are only increasing. To halt the national energy conversation because of the oil spill or public mistrust is a disservice to our country. It is incumbent on members of Congress from both sides of the aisle to look past the political third rails and move forward with a comprehensive energy policy.

Christine Todd Whitman is president of the Whitman Strategy Group and co-chair of the Republican Leadership Council. She served as administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency from January 2001 until June 2003 and governor of New Jersey from 1994 to 2001.

Click here for: Bill McKibbenChristine Todd Whitman, Bruce Babbitt, Stuart Eizenstat, Paul J. Saunders,  and Michael A. Levi.

Bruce Babbitt:

Our congressional system is broken. Cap and trade is dead, the victim of Republican scaremongering. But nature does not negotiate; our Earth will continue to warm, and eventually, an aroused public will force our representatives to act.

Meanwhile, my advice to environmentalists is: Let’s head out into the cities and states where residents and voters are making real progress. You don’t read much about it in Washington, but cap and trade is in effect and working in the New England states and California. More than 30 states (including my state, Arizona) have enacted "portfolio mandates" that require utilities to meet targets for producing carbon-free sustainable energy. Let’s build on these examples in every city and state in the country.

We have neglected the grassroots. Lets get out there and build on programs that are already underway. Sooner or later, Congress will have to wake up and act.

Bruce Babbitt is former chairman of the board of directors of the World Wildlife Fund and was U.S. interior secretary from 1993 to 2001.

Click here for: Bill McKibbenChristine Todd Whitman, Bruce Babbitt, Stuart Eizenstat, Paul J. Saunders,  and Michael A. Levi

Stuart Eizenstat: 

What happened to the climate bill is a result of a combination of forces.

Among these forces, the most important was the state of the economy, which the opposition has -- incorrectly -- used to argue that this legislation would be a job killer and would raise costs at a delicate time in the recovery.

The second force was an indirect result of the financial crisis. Securities markets have gotten a bad name, and a remarkable number of senators with whom I have met with, including Democrats, have become so suspicious of market forces that the cap-and-trade concept -- which I helped develop when I was chief negotiator at the Kyoto process in 1997, and which the United States insisted on as condition for signing the Kyoto Protocol -- has been turned on its head by the very people you would expect to support it. That includes both Republicans and moderate Democrats who, before the financial crisis, would have embraced market solutions to reduce costs and government involvement.

Third, Barack Obama's administration made a decision early on that, after the stimulus bill, it wanted its priority to be health care rather than climate change. We then had the ironic situation in which the House and Senate were working on different priorities. The key priority for the House was climate change, through the Waxman bill. But the Senate was engaged with a very long and ultimately unsuccessful bill, Kerry-Lieberman. All that lost precious time during which we could have gotten the administration to focus on climate change early in Obama's term, when the president's popularity was highest.

The last factor is that a lot of us academics and economists, people like Richard Cooper, the influential Harvard University economist, moved away from the idea of cap and trade. These experts were in favor of legislation but felt that the most-efficient method was a carbon tax. So some of the intellectual firepower behind cap and trade evaporated.

There are a couple of ways to go from here. There has always been debate about whether to push a green-energy law separately. If you can push separately for standards for alternative energy, for example 15 percent biofuels by 2020, and put all sorts of incentives in for alternative energy, but lose the sweetener to climate change, do you go forward with that and get the electricity standards? I don't think it can be done before Congress's next break, but it might be possible before the recess. A lot of environmental groups will object to that; they will say it is the death knell of climate-change legislation.

The other thing that could be a game-changer would be if the Environmental Protection Agency says: We have authority from the Supreme Court to regulate carbon dioxide, and we're going to go industry by industry and source by source. In the end, businesses and industries will dislike that approach much more than legislation, and that may end up changing the congressional dynamic.

Stuart Eizenstat is partner at Covington and Burlington LLP. He served as deputy secretary of the U.S. Treasury from 1993 to 2001, during which time he was lead negotiator on behalf of the United States for the Kyoto Protocol.

Note: This contribution is an interview with FP.

Click here for: Bill McKibbenChristine Todd Whitman, Bruce Babbitt, Stuart Eizenstat, Paul J. Saunders,  and Michael A. Levi.

Paul J. Saunders:

Who killed the climate-change bill? Lots of people. At a tactical level, Senate Republicans, with help from coal-state Senate Democrats. At a strategic level, President Barack Obama, who decided to make health-care reform his No. 1 priority. At the most fundamental level, however, the American people killed the bill.

Elected leaders don't always act on the basis of voters' preferences, but they are normally careful not to stray too far from what their constituents want. There is little evidence that Americans supported significant climate-change legislation at any level deeper than the purely declarative -- especially at any level that involves their pocketbooks.

Some might argue that this reflects a failure of the scientific establishment, activists, and/or the media to adequately explain what may be at stake. While all doubtless have their shortcomings, and all humans and human institutions are imperfect, the real issue is that it is a difficult case to make -- not because climate change isn't real and won't have real consequences, but because it is what political scientists would call a classic problem of collective action.

Stopping climate change requires collective action not only in the United States, but at a global level. And both domestically and internationally, the costs and benefits are not evenly distributed. This complicates efforts at consensus. At the same time, climate policy is inherently energy policy by another name, and energy touches every aspect of daily life -- which makes everyone pay attention to the personal impacts of legislation.

As a result, the limit-based approach underlying both the dead bill and the ongoing United Nations negotiations on climate change is fatally flawed because the effectiveness of emissions limits is inversely proportional to their popularity and political viability. The deep cuts needed to prevent climate change are politically impossible, and even rather mild cuts (in comparison with what is needed) have failed. The lesson here is that any limit-based climate bill that could be passed in Congress would be inherently ineffective in meaningfully addressing the climate problem.

There is still a strong case to be made for investment in innovation, which is a much simpler political argument to make and can slow emissions growth (or, in the case of a genuine but extremely unlikely breakthrough, have transformative effects). But if I were running the government, I would start thinking hard about how the United States should adapt to rising temperatures.

Paul J. Saunders is executive director of the Nixon Center. He served as a senior advisor to the undersecretary of state for global affairs in the George W. Bush administration.

Click here for: Bill McKibbenChristine Todd Whitman, Bruce Babbitt, Stuart Eizenstat, Paul J. Saunders,  and Michael A. Levi.

Michael A. Levi:

The U.S. economy killed the climate bill. Its main accomplices were congressional Republican obstructionism, an anemic White House effort, and misplaced reliance on industry and environmental interest groups to deliver votes.

In January 2009, when President Barack Obama was inaugurated, the smart money on cap and trade was betting on a climate bill just as soon as U.S. employment recovered. That, in most people's minds, meant that we'd have to wait until 2011 or so for a bill. That basic logic hasn't changed. Indeed, things have only gotten worse. Unemployment is more painful than originally predicted. Democratic efforts to reframe cap and trade as jobs legislation, meanwhile, have largely failed. Americans wants assurances, not experiments, and cap and trade doesn't do that for them.

Why, then, the apparent surprise at the climate bill's demise? People have forgotten the economic fundamentals that were so obvious 18 months ago. The House-passed Waxman-Markey bill gave advocates too much hope, even though the bill actually passed with fewer votes than most had once anticipated. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) added another shot of optimism when he teamed up with Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) late last year -- but he has been gone from the picture for months. Climate advocates figured that the oil spill might push things over the top, but no one really explained why paying more for coal-fired electricity would prevent underwater blowouts.

Nor did the main players help much. Republicans settled on a destructive strategy of denying Obama any big bipartisan accomplishments and stuck to that strategy well. The only major exception was the financial-reform bill, something that, unlike cap and trade, the public actually demanded. The White House never made a big public push for climate legislation, either after Waxman-Markey passed or when the oil spill focused people's attention on energy.

Most peculiarly, perhaps, supporters of the bill placed extraordinary faith in the ability of interest-group negotiations to deliver political results. But the big environmental groups wield less influence with voters than they like to think. They failed to deliver a single Republican vote. More strikingly, so did big business. Senator Graham spent months negotiating with utilities, manufacturers, and oil companies. He was able to strike a deal with them -- and that did not get him a single Republican vote either. Yet in the waning hours, all eyes were inexplicably, once again, on environmental groups and utility executives as they tried to hammer out yet another compromise that the public at large was inevitably uninterested in buying.

The big lesson, though, is the economic one. Until the U.S. economy recovers considerably, the best legislative bets are going to be ones that people intuitively connect to their own economic well-being. Cap and trade doesn't seem to fit that bill.

Michael A. Levi is senior fellow for energy and the environment and director of the program on energy security and climate change at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Click here for: Bill McKibbenChristine Todd Whitman, Bruce Babbitt, Stuart Eizenstat, Paul J. Saunders,  and Michael A. Levi.

Alex Wong/Getty Images

 

DEATHWARE

6:04 AM ET

July 24, 2010

Havae

Change is here what don't a here!

 

ZORRO

1:57 PM ET

July 24, 2010

Changing Taxes

Here in Sweden the social democrats compromised with the greens and raised taxes on gas while lowering them on labor. The total taxes was the same, but they made in easier to hire and more expensive to drive inefficient cars.
Something like that might be the way for the US.

 

VANGELV

6:22 PM ET

July 31, 2010

No need...

There is absolutely no reason why Americans should destroy their economy by passing something as useless and ineffectual as the cap and trade bill. Its passage would not have done much for emissions but would have transferred wealth from consumers and taxpayers to industry, academia, and the green movement. The fact that the proposed legislation got a great deal of support from industry should tell us all we need to know about who will benefit. And the fact that the biggest proponents from the 'green' side have done nothing to change the way that they live or to cut their own emissions should tell us all we need to know about just how seriously they take the problem.

What we need is more science and much more data transparency so that we can all look at the evidence. How much support do you think that the typical voter would give the legislation if s/he knew that most of the warming claimed over the past decade took places in which there was no station data used and that GISS uses measurements from a thousand km away to interpolate what the temperatures in the Arctic and Antarctic are? The simple fact is that the public has turned on the AGW proponents because they have yet to demonstrate that there is unusual warming caused by man or that warming would create a problem.

 

HSCHMIDT

8:38 AM ET

July 25, 2010

Maybe there is still hope for America

... because the climate hysteria is not advancing unrestrained. Over here in Europe, we are already paying billions each year for absolutely nothing - this 'nothing' is called 'sustainability' and 'green energy'.
Dear Americans: you cannot compete with the Chinese on cheap 'green' jobs - they will all go to China, just as they are leaving Europe and going to China right now. America should really stop trying to save the world and return to its core values - or else there is nothing that will save this beautiful country.
Greetings from Germany.

 

VANGELV

6:26 PM ET

July 31, 2010

Couldn't agree more...

I laughed when I heard the CEO of GE whine about the Chinese. China is the biggest producer of the rare earth minerals that are necessary to make those wind turbines that we see all over Europe and North America. Recently, the government announced that exports of those needed material will be severely restricted. What that means is that the high value added green jobs will wind up in China and Europeans and Americans will have to settle for the lower value installation and service activities. Voters are not stupid so when they figure out that they have been had the support for subsidies that make GE's profits possible will fade faster than Obama's approval ratings.

 

NOM DE GUERRE 1967

9:45 AM ET

July 26, 2010

They're Asking Too Much

Stuart Eizenstat argued that climate change legislation would not in fact harm the economy or destroy jobs despite claims to the contrary. This statement is not followed by any argument. If the goal is to reduce the consumption of carbon based fuel, I see the only options as reducing demand via taxation etc. (which is not likely to help the economy) or to reduce the supply effectively available to the market via credits or some other regulatory mechanism (I doubt this one will do the economy any favors either). If Mr. Eizenstat has found another option he should run for office (and the Noble Prize).

The real problem is that this type of legislation requires politicians to ask the population to accept significant costs to fix a problem that "no really, trust us" exists. No significant fraction of the population will ever look at global warming and really know from a scientific standpoint that its true. How many people for example (environmentalists quoted in this article included) know how many vibrational modes the CO2 molecule has, or why that is important? So people must accept global warming on faith (or the word of others - which isn't much better)

Of course many people tolerate attempts at Keynesian solutions (and their associated costs) to macro scale economic problems while taking their justification on faith. But politicians have the cover of being able to claim victory when unemployment goes down or markets improve (regardless of why). The goal of climate change legislation is to prevent an envisioned future disaster, and so if successful, what do the politicians point to? The fact that no disaster occurred? Not to mention the problem that the supposed benefit comes decades after the costs.

Good luck every making this happen in the US.

 

JTRISH

2:28 AM ET

August 20, 2010

Good point

I believe you have a great point there: in order to for people to change their habits and make sacrifices, they need to see the harm of keeping things the way they are. The only way to brake inertia at so many levels in everyday life and put our paradigm upside down is to be certain that change is necessary. Unfortunately, for most of the population, that's a matter of belief, mostly. Unfortunately also, by the time we see the disastrous effects of climate changes, it will be too late.

Perhaps, it would be necessary to educate younger generations on this matter while designing greener, affordable ways to change our economies. Wish I had the answer to this problem. John Trish - repossessed cars for sale

 

UGGSTYLE

11:53 AM ET

July 26, 2010

that is faire

Stuart Eizenstat argued that climate change legislation would not in fact harm the economy or destroy jobs despite claims to the contrary. This statement is not followed by any argument. If the goal is to reduce the consumption of carbon based fuel, I see the only options as reducing demand via taxation etc. (which is not likely to help the economy) or to reduce the supply effectively available to the market via credits or some other regulatory mechanism (I doubt this one will do the economy any favors either). If Mr. Eizenstat has found another option he should run for office (and the Noble Prize).

The real problem is that this type of legislation requires politicians to ask the population to accept significant costs to fix a problem that "no really, trust us" exists. No significant fraction of the population will ever look at global warming and really know from a scientific standpoint that its true.

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How many people for example (environmentalists quoted in this article included) know how many vibrational modes the CO2 molecule has, or why that is important? So people must accept global warming on faith (or the word of others - which isn't much better)

Of course many people tolerate attempts at Keynesian solutions (and their associated costs) to macro scale economic problems while taking their justification on faith. But politicians have the cover of being able to claim victory when unemployment goes down or markets improve (regardless of why). The goal of climate change legislation is to prevent an envisioned future disaster, and so if successful, what do the politicians point to? The fact that no disaster occurred? Not to mention the problem that the supposed benefit comes decades after the costs.

Good luck every making this happen in the US.

 

DCHONG

1:53 PM ET

July 26, 2010

It's Obama's fault!

"It's Obama's fault because he failed to break a united front of Republican opposition. He should have compromised earlier to advance a bill that would have been toothless and ineffective."

"It's Obama's fault because he was too busy getting an economic stimulus bill passed in Congress, getting a major health care overhaul passed in Congress, getting a major financial reform bill passed in Congress, and fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq."

"It's the climate scientists' fault because they allowed their emails to get illegally hacked, and even though the emails didn't undermine the actual science of climate change, they led to the (mis)perception that climate science was in doubt."

Twisted logic at best; disingenuous at worst.

Why didn't the climate bill pass? A lot of people have ideas and interests that are aligned against passing a climate bill. Seeing what's in front of your nose is a constant struggle.

 

NOM DE GUERRE 1967

2:27 PM ET

July 26, 2010

In front of your nose?

DCHONG, Do you know how many vibrational modes the CO2 molecule has, or how pressure broadening of an absorption line works? I'm guessing no. So don't get to carried away telling people that climate change is in front of their collective nose. FYI, I'm not a denier, I just don't think that things are quite as simple as those on either side of this issue would like you to believe.

 

SCOTTM2009

5:00 PM ET

July 26, 2010

it failed because it was crap

The bill failed because it was garbage, just as every major bill of the Obama administration has been crap. In the healthcare overhaul Obama paid no attention to the ,core problem - cost - and instead fixated on making youngsters pay for old people, then threw in a govt takeover of the student loan industry. His financial bill did not address any of the main causes of the economic collapse, but instead focussed on a govt takeover of the financial system. This bill is similar - it does not limit itself to cap and trade - but instead is filled with all manner of other crap that the media never bothers to mention.
Even so, cap and trade would be a tough sell in America because the faith in "the international scientific community" has been severely damaged by the antics of East Anglia, Pachauri's misuse of his position and the IPCC's obvious politicization.
The Environmental Movement has been damaged by the ridiculous exaggerations and outright lies they tell over and over, such as the 'endangered polar bear' whose populations are actually increasing.

When the pro AGW crowd acts honestly and proves their case transparently, then maybe someone will listen to them again. For now, they all look like a bunch of hucksters and thieves - especially Al Gore, who has been using this whole thing to make himself rich while his own carbon footprint resembles that of a midsize town.

 

WILDTHING

7:46 PM ET

July 26, 2010

anti-climactic acts

So now the severe weather comes once again to Washington DC where no one listens and no one sees.... back in the days of the dust bowl however as they were debating dust bowl relief they did see the skies get dark with dust and voted in the measure... it used to be that seeing was believeing but no more...

 

SOMO

6:00 AM ET

July 27, 2010

Nomdeguerre the formula for

Nomdeguerre the formula for vibrational modes is 3N-5 (linear) so in the case of CO2 it should be 4 vibrational modes. They are important because molecules with V-modes are able to absorb and radiate IR which causes Global warming. So now what does this have to do with understanding whether the collective world knows if climate change is happening.

There seems to be a general consensus in the world and any reader with a little bit of research skill would know that there is a very broad consensus amongst people who know about V-modes that Climate change is dangerous and something needs to be done.

"Stuart Eizenstat argued that climate change legislation would not in fact harm the economy or destroy jobs despite claims to the contrary. This statement is not followed by any argument. If the goal is to reduce the consumption of carbon based fuel, I see the only options as reducing demand via taxation etc."

I see a statement "despite claims on the contrary "but no proof, this does seem like you are using the same kind of statement used by the author to criticise and disprove the author. There are two sides to this argument please do read them both then form an opinion and then debate.

having said that here is my opinion.
Moving towards a more Efficient energy consumption pattern should not be seen as a negative for anyone. The first step should be rapid implementation of energy efficiency measures. Force industry, households, Business to become more efficient.

Fossil fuel is a limited resource and it is running out. The country controlling the RE manufacturing and R&D scenario will become very powerful. dependency on dwindling resources puts huge pressure on the economy because of rising prices, and sometimes propels countries into wars that can be expensive and politically / geopolitically catastrophic.

From my point of view I am just surprised that a rich country would not rapidly move towards ensuring that Green technology is promoted in the country so that it does not lose out on the Tech race and i find it overwhelmingly stupid that any country which is dependant on foreign energy resources would not push hard for efficiency not only to reduce costs but also to increase energy security.

It is clear to me that today both China and India are rapidly overtaking the US on green tech, clearly the global power is poised to shift. The US bill might have been a step (small one) in the right direction.

 

NOM DE GUERRE 1967

9:48 AM ET

July 27, 2010

Thanks for Making My Point

Actually the CO2 molecule has three vibrational modes: bending, stretching, and asymmetric stretching, and now let me explain what this has to do with the problem. First, I 'm asking that people not take the position that if you disagree with the global warming theory or even question or wish to discuss some of the physics you're a bad person (go read a comment board on the Israel/Palestine question and see how far blind adherence to your position and name calling gets a debate). Because apparently very few of the people doing the name calling understand it themselves (hence the question about the vibrational modes). Second, my point was that not understanding the physics and believing in global warming is fine and doesn't make you a bad person. Many people fly in planes and don't understand what makes them work, and doing so doesn't make them fools. It is fine to accept a scientific consensus (if that's what global warming has). But, and this is the key point, if you want to be the person advocating remaking the world economy in order to combat global warming, then the burden on you is greater. You should damn well understand the physics yourself. Don't be lazy and say its true because others say it true.

As per the question of whether climate change legislation would negatively impact the economy, you're correct that I did not post an entire thesis proving why it would. I simply made a brief point that the proposed mechanisms for combating climate change are not likely to do so. So I'll argue that I did in fact provide more support for my position than the expert I was referring to. Once again however, I would argue that the burden of proof on this point is on those advocating legislation.

An please don't respond as if I'm a paid oil company employee out to destroy climate change legislation. If the article had primarily taken a position that global warming was absolutely not real and there should not be any legislation, I would have written a comment calling those people out. I just prefer to see debate.

 

NOM DE GUERRE 1967

9:54 AM ET

July 27, 2010

One More Key Point

What my rhetorical question about the vibrational modes shows (which you very kindly helped me illustrate with your 4 vibrational modes response), is that if global warming is real then the "collective world" as you put it does not know that climate change is real. A small group of scientists knows and everyone else believes. I consider this a very important distinction.

 

NOM DE GUERRE 1967

4:01 PM ET

July 27, 2010

FYI, Two modes are degenerate

FYI, Two modes are degenerate and are therefore treated as one. I'm assuming you just Googled CO2 vibrational modes and copied and pasted what you found in order to appear knowledgeable.

 

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July 27, 2010

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SCOTTM2009

8:14 PM ET

July 27, 2010

consensus nonsense

Somo, science is not done nor settled by "consensus", and the reality is that the supposed "consensus" is only a few dozen scientists. There are a vast number of climate scientists who think the question is FAR from settled. The latest research from Australia is that Ice Ages are caused by the earth's wobble, and this could be the same. Theory from New Scientist is that cosmic rays create clouds, and the solar wind cycle affects cosmic ray penetration of the earth's atmosphere. According to Nasa-GISS (Hansen, et al) the majority of ice melt is caused NOT by temperature but by soot causing the ice albedo to change and absorb more light. That soot is not related to CO2, but to the Asian Brown Clowd - burning coal, wood, cowpies, etc.
I agree we should become more efficient.
I agree we should proceed with research into other modes of energy generation.
BUT - many other "green" tech, such as electric vehicles, are not really "green" at all, nor do they reduce wars. The wars will be over rare metals rather than oil - but the result is the same.
One of the best steps we are taking to reduce true pollution output is the clean coal initiative - Bush funded it while in office but envirowackos acted like he was screwing a panda on tv.

 

MALIKA79

3:05 PM ET

August 3, 2010

It is not surprising. They

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BUFFALO09

2:46 AM ET

August 6, 2010

Who Killed the Climate Bill? Easy......Phil Jones.

Ignoring obvious realities may also be considered as engaging in "intellectually dishonest" behavior. Climate bill dead.....that's great news as the economy was about to be taken off of life support, permanently.

 

DR. SARDONICUS

10:06 PM ET

August 6, 2010

Who is killing the climate?

You and I are, with our o so fashionable, bell jar vacuum ideologies. We are soooo sophisticated, smothering ourselves in pataphysics!

 

OCEAN

7:25 AM ET

August 16, 2010

Thanks

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