Madrid's Nightmare

Judging from the headlines it's accumulated over the years, Spain's Basque country, with its notorious ETA terror campaigns, has been leading one of Europe's most high-profile independence movements. But it's in the Catalan region, at the other end of the Pyrenees, that demands for independence now appear to approaching critical mass -- all by means of peaceful civic protest.

The depth of the Catalan crisis was underscored by a stark parliamentary debate in Madrid on July 15. "A plural Spain and a social Spain, the two pillars [of your policy], are in a shambles, " Josu Erkoreka, spokesman for the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) in the Madrid parliament, told the Spanish prime minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, who leads the center-left Socialist Party (PSOE).

Zapatero had, indeed, taken office in 2004 promising a "plural Spain" that would grant additional recognition to the country's regions, which already enjoy considerable autonomy. Nation-building on the Iberian peninsula has always been a decidedly shaky enterprise, and the prime minister's 2004 promise to revamp the relationships between its constituent parts was strong on good intentions but chronically weak on coherent strategic thinking. In the process, he managed to raise -- and then dash -- the aspirations of regional nationalists, and woke the dormant dragon of Spanish nationalism.

Basque and Catalan nationalists have been harbouring grievances since the late 1970s transition to democracy after Franco's death. These territories assumed they would have an option on independence, but the power brokers of the old regime -- in particular, the military -- steadfastly refused to compromise on the country's indivisibility.

The regions expressed their disappointment in markedly different ways. Basque nationalists of all stripes called for a rejection of the 1978 constitution. A substantial minority of Basque radicals sympathized with ETA and supported terrorist campaigns against the Spanish state throughout the 1980s and 1990s. Catalan nationalists, meanwhile, largely accepted the autonomy granted them in the new regime. But in both cases, the desire for increased self-determination was only deferred, not extinguished.

Zapatero had rashly promised to accept whatever changes the Catalan parliament made to its existing autonomy statute, so long as they stayed within the current constitution. But the most radical changes were watered down by the Madrid parliament, though it did approve Catalonia's desired affirmation of its "preferred" status of the Catalan language, and its full control of over its judiciary. Most significantly, it accepted Catalonia's status as a "nation" in its own right, though it shifted this provision from the main statute to the preface.

But in early July, the Spanish Constitutional Court, responding to a petition organized by the opposition conservative People's Party (PP), ruled that some of the changes violated the constitution and avowed that only it only recognizes "one nation, Spain," dashing Catalan hopes. Popular support for the PP petition campaign revealed that Spanish nationalism, dormant since the dictatorship, remains a key force in Spanish politics.

Yet the court decision provoked what were probably the biggest demonstrations in Barcelona since the transition to democracy. Around a million people took to the streets to protest in favor of increased self-determination for the Catalan nation. They were led by José Montilla, leader of the PSC, the Catalan chapter of Zapatero's party, who described the decision of Spain's highest court as "offensive." The tone of the march suggests that many Catalans who would have been content with even the watered-down statute are now shifting towards demands for complete independence. Montilla was repeatedly abused by pro-independence demonstrators, who appear increasingly to reflect the popular mood.

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10:53 PM ET

August 21, 2010

Zapatero

CATALONIA DIRECT

10:33 AM ET

August 22, 2010

Incorrect

This is incorrect. Nation building in the Iberian peninsula has been based on the destruction of the Catalan, Basque and Galician nations by the Castilian-Spanish. With regards to autonomy, Catalonia has the same exact status as any other Castilian-Spanish provinces that are not nations and we have no real power, it only manages the healthcare, education and police. To manage doesn't mean that you have power over it, it can only act like a delegation of the Spanish Government and any laws that the Spanish Government doesn't like can be overridden by a Spanish law.

For instance, the Catalan Statute, the recent Catalan Bullfighting ban or even the Catalan Welcoming and Integration law that the Spanish Ombudsman has appealed since it says that immigrants who live in Catalonia will be integrated preferably in Catalan but the Spanish, using the Sentence on the Statute want to impose Castilian-Spanish, which is not Catalonia's language and makes no sense, hence denying immigrants the possibility of real integration.

www.cataloniadirect.info

RAINER MüLLER

5:52 AM ET

Catalan nationalism

A fair article that, nevertheless, needs a comment on some points.

Catalonia has had its share of nationalist terrorism in the form of Terra Lliure, which existed between 1981 and 1995. In its actions tens were wounded and one person died.

As the article duely notices, this is a conflict of rivalling nationalisms, but it also is one between nationalisms on the one hand and democracy and the rule of law on the other.

The new Catalan Statute was an attempt at hollowing out the Spanish Constitution, and the Constitutional Tribunal acted coherently. Let's take the very central term "nation". First of all, it has to be noticed that in Spanish "nación" relates mainly to a nation having itself established as a state. That is why the constitution uses "nationalities" for all those who we could call nations without a state within Spain, giving them ample rights. It is not, however, clear whether it assigns the status of "nationality" to the autonomous province of Catalonia.

It has been generally accepted that Catalans are a "nationality", if we want to use the expression of the constitution, or a "nation" as popular speech goes. Catalans live in Catalonia, but also in surrounding territories of Spain and France. Catalan independentism is historically focussed on what it calls the "Catalan Lands", i.e. all the territories where Catalans live, not only the autonomous province of Catalonia.

What makes the claim that the autonomous province of Catalonia is a nation all the more aggressive is that it defines as Catalans all those who live in Catalonia, not in the administrative sense but in the national one, leaving no space for the individual to define themselves, and keeping in mind both that a majority of the population uses Spanish, and not Catalan, as their native languge and that language use is, even according to Catalan nationalists, the nationally defining factor. (Althought that is now somehow being debated since Catalan nationalists have realised how much they are being exclusive, and economic arguments for independence are being brought forward, while, at the end of the day, still keeping an eye on a future monolingual state.)

All which means that Catalan nationalist policies, which are sustained by a middle and upper class (that rules over the administration, the universities and the press) but not by the majority of the population, is clearly moving from a collectivist approach inside that autonomous community towards secession, to, once that achieved, get into border conflicts with the then neighbouring states of France and Spain.

This is truely a nightmare scenario, especially given the domino effect on other regions such as the Basque Country and Galicia.

In their quest to make "national rights" outweigh personal freedoms, Catalan nationalists do never stop to wonder if what they might achieve is actually worth the risk.

This is behind what the article sees as "means of peaceful civic protest": a certain amount of manipulation is also involved.

NINJA

7:10 AM ET

Països Catalans

Firstly, not all parties backed the Catalan demonstrations, neither the PP and UPyD supported them.

Anyway...

The Catalan independence movement does not focus solely on the independence of the Catalan Autonomous region. Similar to the Balkan term "greater Albania", The goal is the independence and unification of various areas and not of a single current administrative entity.

"Països Catalans" includes The catalan, Valencian and Balearic Autonomous regions, a sliver of the Argaon autonomous region, a city in the Murcian autonomous region, the entire country of Andorra, a piece of France and a city in Sardinia.

This would suggest that a catalan independence would bring about repercussions affecting Spain, France, Italy and Andorra.

There is much less support for this "Greater Catalonia" in these territories, in Valencia for example they refer to their language as Valencian, and not Catalan, and in Andorra there is no political party supportive of this move. In the end many in these territories believe the the entire concept is simply an attempt by Catalonia to annex its neighbours.

The goals are thus very similar to the Basque region's. In that case the independence pursued is for the region itself, Navarre and the French Basque areas.

There is also a nascent movement for the independence of Val d'Aran as they speak a different language, Occitan, and have an unique identity.

Just thought I would add the international dimension to the discussion

10:02 AM ET

Your point of view is that of a Castilian-Spanish nationalist and hence flawed.

First of all, the problem here is one of basic democratic tradition. The current configuration of what you call Spain has been achieved after a few wars, not as a pact between equals. In 1714 the Castilian-Spanish won the succession war and dismantled Catalonia's government institutions and political independence by "right of conquest". Therefore, ever since then the Castilian-Spanish have tried to replicate the centralised design by actively attempting to destroy through cultural imposition and substitution the other Iberian nations and cultures, especially the Catalan one.

Again, in 1939 when Franco's army entered Catalonia it was again with the aim on destroying it as a nation forever. Catalan was forbidden from public use and prosecuted for 4 decades and several waves of Spanish immigration were sent to Catalonia with the aim in converting it into another Castilian-Spanish province. However, they didn't suceed.

Next came the restoration of the Bourbon monarchy. The fascist crimes were never prosecuted. Again, the foundations of the current regime are based on the fascist regime that preceded it. The current configuration is not a federal state, it actually attempts to legitmize the rights of conquest achieved through centuries of armed occupation of the Castilian-Spanish over the Catalans using a pseudo-democratic regime that was achieved after Franco's death through the threat of the still existing fascist state structures and army and a coup d'etat during the initial stages of the Bourbon restoration.

The Spanish Constitution only recognises one nation, the Castilian-Spanish. Only one official language, the Castilian-Spanish and effectively creates several second-class nations: the Catalan, Basque and Galician ones, which are not granted equal rights to Castilian-Spain within the Spanish state. Catalans only want the same rights as the Castilian-Spanish.

Economically, Catalonia currently sustains a fiscal plundering of 22000 million euros. There is a fundamental difference in the way that wealth redistribution works in a federal country like, for instance, the USA and Spain. In Spain there are no control mechanisms or negotiation possible, they just take as much as they see fit.

In fact, they steal 10% of Catalonia's GDP. whereas in the USA, for instance, this amount is limited to 2% of the GDP so as not to damage the most productive areas. Secondly, this wealth redistribution shouldn't under any circumstance leave the donors' welfare below the receivers' but Catalonia goes down 8 positions after wealth redistribution. You can imagine the effect of this plundering on the Catalan economy over several hundreds of years.

The Spanish have a deep lack of democratic culture not having had a Parliament until the 19th century, while Catalonia had the first Parliament in mainland Europe in the 13th century. Spain does not recognise the right of self-determination.

Also, the Spanish media and politicians have always benefited by spreading anti-Catalan racism on a daily basis to gain readers and votes. All of Spanish Government decisions are consciously designed to reinforce Madrid's power and to weaken Barcelona's strength and importance.

When, as a Catalan, you realise this there's only one clear way to go, independence.

11:11 AM ET

Hilarious

"Your point of view is that of a Castilian-Spanish nationalist and hence flawed." If you read this, you know how to take any words that come afterwards.

This is how you discredit the opponent flat out. Here is someone who is eager to define anybody who disagrees with his (secessionist) view as the enemy. There is no dialogue, only ideology, propaganda and the ensuing fallacies and manipulations. It is state of the art of Catalan nationalism.

That is why Catalonia, with its stack of nationalists, is a security risk not only for Spain, but for Europe as a whole.

As you might guess by my name, I am not a Spanish citizen. I am a German living in Catalonia, and I feel quite free to speak my mind on the margins of the local factions. I am nevertheless affected by the goings-on, and worried about the confrontational tone of this dispute.

Spanish and Catalan nationalists, the latter much more than the former, are cooking up a much wider conflict, which makes me wonder if it would not be better to settle elsewhere and take my business and family with me.

9:02 PM ET

Too bad

You are German? You probably arrived in Catalonia expecting Bullfighting and Flamenco but found something slightly different instead and are disappointed, I've seen many like you.

I don't think we'll drop our culture and cease to exist as a nation just because some foreigner is not happy with it. You must adapt to and respect the country you live in just like I have adapted to all the countries I've lived in. If you can't do it, then I suggest you move to Spain. We don't need you and don't want people like you.

1:31 AM ET

August 23, 2010

Incorrect?

Couldn't help noticing, CATALONIA DIRECT, that your response to our posts all begin with "Incorrect" yet you seem to not correct any of our points.

I have to agree with Rainer, Catalan nationalism seems to be more propaganda then fact.

3:54 AM ET

Dear Catalonia Direct

I did come to Spain (last time I looked Catalonia was part of it). I speak both Spanish and Catalan. I adapt, as is normal, but I will not be treated as a pawn subjected to the political whims of some extremists.

URTX

6:01 AM ET

Agree but not

Dear Mr. Müller, that's nice to see the knowledge you show about catalan subjects. It helps a lot to discuss with you, in my case for to disagree about diferent comments you made, as to compare Terra Lliure with ETA.

I'm afraid you are writing about the old catalan nationalism, those that existed during Franco dictatorship, and remained, more or less, during some years during the democracy. It was a freedom catalanism, looking for freedom to brother regions, and even in this case, it was more a cultural expression than a political one. In this sense, the term Catalan countries (Països Catalans) was an idea of a valencian writer, Mr. Joan Fuster, for to made a definition of the cultural zone (in the same way as Hispanoamérica or Latinoamerica, in understand that it's not so terrible to find a name for to design the brother culture lands).

Nowdays, each region of the Països calalans, has it's own way, and everybody knows it, and if you inform better, you will see that only residual extreme-letf organizations still thinks in the Catalan countries as a political future, meanwhile the rest of politicals do not think in this way, neither the independentist organizations. Please, inform better and you will see that's in this way.

I also could discuss about other subjects you mention that I think are wrong, but I see that your argumentation is very closer to those of spanish nationalist newspapers, and, may be not, upon my experience with spanish nationalism, I'm afraid that to try to expose any argumentation would be like to have a wall in front of me, no possibility of middle point or agreement, there only one truth, of course the official truth.

So, only to say one thing more, you said that "....Catalan nationalist policies, which are sustained by a middle and upper class (that rules over the administration, the universities and the press) but not by the majority of the population.....". We'll, let's wait the next electionship, this autum, and you will see if is it really in this way, and in case you be wrong, please, do not made as spanish ultranationalist and ex-president Aznar when he loosed the election ship in Basque coutry, do not say that basque people were an ill population.

7:52 AM ET

Extremist

See the thing is that if you look around, you are the extermist, we are just catalans who want the normal thing for our country and want the same rights in Europe that you enjoy being a German. In fact, if I was German I'd probably would not want Catalonia to become independent because once we are independent ou guys are gonna have to subsidise the Spanish. Well, it's all your problem for letting such a country in the EU in the first place.

You are the one who is supporting the pseudodemocracy in Spain which is based in Franco's fascist regime's achievements and was written under the threat of weapons and not as a free pact between nations, are you a fascist?

Did you know that the King of Spain has not to date sworn to obey the Spanish Constitution but did swear the Franco's movement principles? Or that Spain's legal system rates 63 out of 160, just below Nigeria in its judicial independence according to the World Economic Forum?

In the meantime, you can have your opinion but Catalonia is still a democracy and if its citizens want to be independent there'll be nothing that will stop them. Especially extremists like you.

6:15 AM ET

Undestanding better another subjects

Dear Mrs. Woodworth, please, let me to place two links that will help the readers to understand better the catalan reality:

+ Report in "La Vanguardia", a no nationalist newspaper, it is in spanish (no in catalan), but can be read with an online translator: http://www.lavanguardia.es/lv24h/20100803/53976618206.html

+ Conference of the writer Mr. Matthew Tree in the London School of Economics (in english): http://www.scribd.com/doc/12552276/Life-on-the-Receiving-End-Matthew-Tree

TRENATOR

4:38 PM ET

Reality check

I am afraid Mr Muller is being quite disingenuous in his posts, not least in his attempt to pretend he is detached from the debate because of his nationality.

For a start:
“this is a conflict of rivalling nationalisms, but it also is one between nationalisms on the one hand and democracy and the rule of law on the other.”

I thought he would then describe how Spanish nationalism has managed to repeal a law that was approved by the vast majority of the Catalan parliament and approved by the Catalan people in a referendum, and how it is unnaceptable that the settled will of the people is overturned by an unelected tribunal.

But alas not: it seems that the rule of law only applies when it is the Spanish state and its unionist/nationalist parties defending theirs. If it is the democratic will of the Catalan people as expressed in a referendum, and 85% of their elected representatives then it is not the rule of law, it is nationalism. It sounds familiar.

This is how Spanish unionism, and some "unintegrated" immigrants like Mr Muller, frames this debate and CataloniaDirect was quite right to challenge you. It does not matter whether you are from Malaga or Munich: if you talk the language of Spanish nationalism, and fully adopt its argumentative narrative, then it is only to be expected that you will be accused of being a Spanish unionist/nationalist. (If it walks like a duck….etc).

This is quite ludicrous, and a hint that Mr Muller has lost touch with reality:

“All which means that Catalan nationalist policies, which are sustained by a middle and upper class (that rules over the administration, the universities and the press) but not by the majority of the population, is clearly moving from a collectivist approach inside that autonomous community towards secession, to, once that achieved, get into border conflicts with the then neighbouring states of France and Spain.”

If I want to have a laugh reading this kind of nonsense I go to Spanish nationalist outlets like LD, COPE, ABC, etc. It is this that shows that Mr Muller lives in a parallel universe, unaware and out of touch with the social and political reality of Catalonia.

The security risk for Europe is the aggressive strand of Spanish nationalism which advocates the use of military force and grants the Army the power to intervene should the democratically elected representative of Catalonia attempt to implement any kind of policy which the Spanish state deems a threat. I refer interested journalists to Article 8 of the 1978 Spanish Constitution and the numerous incidents in which Army personnel have spoken out threating to use this Article to prevent the Catalan/Basque parlaments from doing what they have been elected to do by their citizens.

If you were concerned about democracy and the rule of law, you would not be worried by Catalan nationalism, which is probably the most welcoming and open-minded movement in Europe, including many peoples for Europe like yourself, but by the sabre-rattling coming from Spain and the obsession of the Spanish state to prohibit Catalan language from the Spanish Parliament in Madrid and the EU parliament. That many a so-called “non-nationalist” do not criticise this most blatant of discriminations and breach of individual rights of our elected representatives speaks volumes.

But I am puzzled by your stance with regards to the right of self-determination. After all, your homeland was amongst the first in Europe to recognise the independence of Slovenia, or Kosovo more recently. Why should Catalonia be deprived of such a right? A right that is afforded to other nations/nationalities/regions/call it what you will.

The security risk in this issue, like in the former Yugoslavia, is not whether people in Catalonia will exercise their democratic right of self-determination, time will tell, but if Spain, like Serbia, will use military force to suppress a completely and utterly democratic movement. One would hope that Mr Muller, having made a successful living in Catalonia, would show more sympathy to the plight of his fellow citizens, instead of being detached from the social and political reality of Catalonia.

5:05 PM ET

Fair article

On the article, I think it is an accurate brief summary of the situation.

We are used to such poor coverage by most of the foreign media that anything will do, but in this case, in fairness to Mr Woodworth, I think the article covers most of the bases is a very short space. So congratulations.

In particular I would like to highlight this sentence:

”In the process, he managed to raise -- and then dash -- the aspirations of regional nationalists, and woke the dormant dragon of Spanish nationalism.”

It is incumbent on the foreign media to investigate and expose the lack of democratic DNA of Spanish nationalism/unionism. I am not referring to manipulative campaigns against schools, language,sporting teams,r commercial boycotts against Catalan products, the abusive language in the media, etc. Catalans are used to this “small stuff”, even though in the UK these things would be covered in “incitement to hatred” legislation or something similar.

The risk for the EU and the international community is the dogmatic nature of the Spanish state and the mainstream Spanish parties and media, and their point-blank refusal to accept that the Basques or Catalan may want to decide on their own political futures in a democratic referendum of independence, a la Quebec.

Not only they will use any kind of legal tricks (inhabilitación, prevaricación, Constitutional appeals, etc) to prevent this from happening but the 1978 Constitution grants the Spanish Army the power to intervene to prevent the democratically elected Catalan/Basque parliaments from doing what their electorate has voted for –if this conflicts with their views on the sacrosanct unity of Spain.

In this regard, Spain is as dangerous now as Serbia was in the 90s. An aggressive, expansionist, military-enabled political and cultural nationalism intent on assimilating other regions/nations. One would hope that after the tragedy in the former Yugoslavia, the international community will keep the Spanish Army in check should the political situation move forward towards self-determination.

It would be desirable if international powers made clear to the Spanish state that Army intervention, or even political repression, to prevent a democratic process will not be tolerated. If the Spanish state had any democratic credibility, not only would Article 8 be reworded, but a clear commitment to respect the settled will of the people should be explicit, including the prohibition to the Spanish army to intervene in any internal political dispute.

This is the hot potato that nobody in Europe wants to handle, but it is only a matter of time before things come to a head.

8:37 AM ET

August 24, 2010

Thank you very little

I will not spend my time denouncing the fallacies of my fellow commentators.

Only for speaking my mind freely I have been invited to leave Catalonia ("We don't need you and don't want people like you."/Catalonia Direct). It is not the first time this has happened.

I think that is enough to understand why one cannot feel free anymore in this part of the world.

JUSTBEINGDUTCH

5:04 AM ET

August 26, 2010

It all seems very strange to me these comments coming from someone from a country where the Freistaat status is such a big issue. I live in Bavaria and the status of Bavaria (or any other German state) is more or less exactly what the Catalan want. Here no one would ever consider the Freistaat Bayern to be less than it´s current status and to me it is an public affront to the Catalan people to assume their demand for this status is different and pretend to be an understanding German outsider.

I am Dutch but I was in Barcelona 2002 during the 10 years Olympic games remembrance Event. To me the importance of the return Salamanca Papers had always been clear but that evening my heart feld cold for those who opposed the return.

How a Nation could live with a crime like that was beyond my understanding. The Catalan Cultural inheratance should be in Catalunia and not in a city like Salamanca, it is like shipoping the letter of Independence to London to be kept in the Tower next to the crown jewels.

THAT is what makes the gab between the Castillian and the Catalan. The loothing was a crime but the denial of return was an even bigger crime as it was committed by a European Nation that is supposed to be a democracy!!

It was no longer a Franco fascist regime that deprived a nation of it´s Identity. It was a Nation that denied another Nation it´s cultural and historical Inheritance and with that tried to deprive them of their Identity.

The groups that tried to prefend the return in 2005 and later showed the huge gab between the Spanish and the Catalan even so many years after the Fascist Regime.

9:38 AM ET

August 27, 2010

Old news

JUSTBEINGDUTCH The people supporting the notion that Catalonia is a victim that have been commenting here have not being talking about autonomy within a Spanish Federal state, such as the case in Germany. They are talking about secession.

As to the Salamanca papers, they were returned in 2009 as far as I’m aware.

4:47 AM ET

August 28, 2010

Germany is different

Dear Dutch friend, have some more time in Germany to understand it. There is no Bundesland where you could find this kind of secessionist nationalism. Quite on the contrary, there are regional cultures and languages that would just love to gain the same legal status as Catalan has in Spain.

Catalans have a lot, their nationalists always want more. Fine by me, but I wish they'd be less manipulative.

8:42 AM ET

One sided arguments that do not look at the bigger picture

It seems that Catalonia Direct, Trenator and Urtx are all in agreement and, frankly not impartial at all.

Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that everything is exactly the way things are (I disagree completely but anyway...)

Catalonia is not self-sufficient and would not be able to survive on it's own (water is a good example of this) which means they would STILL be dependent on Spain.

If Catalonia left Spain then it would infact be leaving the EU, shich would mean that they would no longer have access tot he single market adn all the other benefits of EU membership.

(as a side point, even in the EU the richer states pay more then the poorer states... this is not a spanish thing, it's a matter of resources going to where they are needed. The problem in Spain should not be why does Catalonia pay for Andalucia? but why has Andalucia not developped to a higher level?... I blame chavez.. but whatever)

The UN would NOT recognise Catalonia either as China amongst others (including spain) would block this.

I might also point out that "Nationalist" parties in Spain (i.e. Catalan, basque etc.) are OVER represented in the national parliament. This is because the electoral system, based on the province as the electoral unit favours these at the expense of more generalist spanish parties such as IU and UPyD). In the case of UPyD, in the 2008 elections it recieved almost the exact same vote as PNV and MORE votes then ERC, BNG and CC and recieved less seats then all of them! Whether you agree with UPyD or not if anyone is to complain about democracy in Spain it should certainly NOT be the Partidos nacionalistas!

As a little extra food for thought this link is something to think about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0

10:40 AM ET

Nobody is free of bias...

Ninja,

I am afraid that your perception of the economic and polticial reality of Catalonia is as out of touch as that of Mr Muller.

Your statement about Catalonia not being self-sufficient is laughable: without the 10-15% fiscal plundering Catalonia would have a standard of living above the Euro area average. But besides, can you please any sovereign state that is completely self-sufficient? (ie. Not reliant on imports of food, goods or capital). None, exactly.

With regards to EU membership, you seem to fall for the fallacy that is peddled by the unionist lobbies in both the UK and Spain. The fact of the matter is that a constituent part of an EU state becoming an independent state does not and will not require approval by other member states. This is now accepted EU jurisprudence, even by Scottish Labour party.

As to the benefits or otherwise of EU membership, just to let you know that Norway and Switzerland have access to the common market and are not EU members.

Can you elaborate on why China would not recognise an independent Catalonia which has achieved said status by democratic means? It was not a problem for the Baltic republics, Slovenia, Croatia, etc, etc.
Sure, Spain would not recognise it. But in the Kosovo example, where is Spain?
In the same side as Russia and China, those bastions of democracy and freedom.
This is what the author is referring to with the description of “dormant dragon of Spanish nationalism”. Any notion of democratic principles is abandoned in favour of siding with China. Need I say more?

You last comments re the political system betray your own bias.
Spain’s upper chamber elections are conducted under a proportional representation system on a wide constituency basis, the province.
Are you suggesting that Spain should move to a single constituency basis? Please name one EU member where this is applied to the main legislative chamber. Exactly, none.

The so-called “nationalist” parties are not over-represented. What happens is that lots of people vote for them and they are the majority parties in their respective areas. Spain, uniquely in the big EU states, already applies the one-constituency basis for EU elections, which results in Catalan/Basque parties being unfairly punished and under-represented in the EU parliament.

I agree that UPyD is under-represented when counting the total number of votes, but so is IU and other parties. The fact of the matter is that no electoral system is perfect but trying to tinker with it so that you can alter the electoral arithmetic to ensure under representation of Catalan/Basque parties in the Spanish parliament to favour Spanish unionism/nationalism is a surefire way of adding fuel to the fire.

If nothing else, if the same principle was applied to Basque and Catalan elections, it would likely result in their respective nationalist parties gaining even more seats and being able to issue a UDI or a referendum bill with an absolute parliamentary majority.

If you are prepare to dish it out, you must be ready to take it….

1:47 PM ET

Right back at you Trenator!

Trenator, when referring to Catalonia's self-sufficiency, I was not saying that all countries are... but what I was trying to convey is that you were suggesting a non-amicable separation from Spain and THEN maintain access to Spanish resources... very unlikely...

With regards to EU membership... of course a Scottish party will agree that there are no obstacles, but the reality is that membership is dependent on the approval of all member states... as in, all states that are already members... as far as I'm aware Catalonia is not a member of the EU, Spain is.

Norway and Switzerland are indeed not members of the EU but they have signed treaties to enter the European Economic Area... some thing that would naturally be opposed by the Spanish government.

As to your point about China, I will assume you were asleep during the Olympics. China has a huge problem with separatist movements. Just think that China has 56 minorities that together total more the 150 million people... any suggestion that separation in any country is acceptable would add fire to China's own internal issues. This is why China has neither supported the kosovar independence nor the Abkhazian or the Ossetian independences.

Now I'm not suggesting that China and Russia are ideal role models, but recognition by the UN of ANY sovereign state depends on them.. and they would not approve.

Where is Spain with regards to Kosovo?... Suffice to say that Kosovo is not in the EU... and, IF it ever enters it will be dependent on Serbia and kosovo ending all animosity.

Next I find it incredibly distasteful that you would even begin to compare the states of former Yugoslavia with Catalonia. The Yugoslav WARS were brutal and cost the lives of many thousands... that hardly seems even remotely similar to Catalonia's current situation.

My comment on the electoral system in Spain was to point out that politically, in National politics, the partidos nacionalistas have much more weight and influence then is proportional to population... which in the end is the basis for democracy. Many people may indeed have voted for CiU... but less people voted for them then for IU and yet they got 8 seats more! I agree that democracy in Spain leaves a lot to be desired, but I do not agree that the balance is tipped AGAINST partidos nacionalistas!

The last thing I would say about this is that in my eyes, one citizen should have one vote irrespective of geographic location. But I do not want to get into this because the question is Catalonian and Basque Secession.

I will also remind you that in the last Catalan elections in 2006 over 1 million people voted for PSC and the PP... that's well over 33% of the vote... a very large minority... ignoring THAT is not very democratic.

I couldn't help noticing that you did not comment on the video link about the independence of Val d'Aran. THAT is hypocrasy! Why are their arguments any less relevant then yours? When you find the answer, then you will understand the point of view of the the rest of Spain vis-a-vis Catalonia.

I can dish out as much as I receive...

2:15 PM ET

Give me a straight answer

This back and forth can go on forever.

So to move on let me make the following point. I agree with you that the Spanish constitution and Spanish democracy are flawed... Many many voters in Spain agree that this needs to be fixed.

Now explain to me why the ONLY solution is independence!

Democracies have their flaws, agreed, but if every time there was a disagreement then democracies would not exist. Spain is a relatively young democracy, and the constitution is a remnant of the transition. Soon a revision will be necessary, I agree, but there is no reason why all Spanish citizens cannot work together and create something acceptable to all. The PSOE and PP have maintained the current system because it was in their interests. But the entire model is ill suited to the current reality. The constitution, the electoral model and much more needs an overhaul, I could not agree more wholeheartedly, but that STILL does not justify Catalan secession.

In a democracy you have to, peacefully, find a way to collaborate for the greater good, not abandon ship because you do not like the Captain.

So explain to me why secession is a better solution hen democratic reform.

11:59 AM ET

August 25, 2010

First

First, Catalonia is part of the EU and will never stop being when it declares independence, or do you think they can deny 7.5 milion catalans who are already europeans their citizenship? don't be ridiculous. In any case, if that was the case then Spanish would also be out from the EU since Catalonia's independence would effectively create two new states.

The fear argument is quite old and doesn't even scare kids anymore.

Secondly, regarding the democratic reform of the Spanish Constitution. It is entirely impossible that such a thing will ever happen.

The presidents of PSOE and PP have made it clear that the current spanish constitution is as far as self-government for Catalonia will ever go and the Constitutional Court's sentence on the Catalan Statute is clear. The will of the Catalans is not respected in Spain, therefore we will exercise our right of self-determination and become independent. How are you guys going to stop that? Will you bomb Barcelona? Will you try to arrest the democratically elected Catalan Government?

10:17 AM ET

Direct to Catalonia Direct

Well, when it comes to secession in international relations lets look at the former Yugoslavia… Slovenia separated, and became a new country, Yugoslavia continued to exist, the Croatia left and became a new country requiring recognition, Yugoslavia continued existing. Yugoslavia ceased to exist only after the peaceful separation of Serbia and Montenegro. So if Catalonia did separate then only ONE new country would be created (Catalonia) the “rest’ of Spain would legally continue to be the successor state of the “original” Spain, including all associations and rights (Russia inherited the Soviet seat on the UN security council as the successor state of the USSR). So, Spain would retain its rights as a member of the EU and Catalonia would be in some kind of limbo.

One thing is clear, the EU will NOT allow this to get out of hand and will always support the side that guarantees stability. The Spanish government knows that as long as it plays by EU rules the institutions will continue to support it.

So you believe democratic reform of the Spanish constitution is impossible do you? And why is that? Because the CURRENT political atmosphere is not conducive to reform? This mood can change as it can in any other democracy. Remember that in the great scheme of things Spain has been a democracy for 5mins, just because a thorough constitutional reform has not occurred until now does not mean it can NEVER occur.

The will of Catalonia is not respected in Spain? So you don’t get EVERYTHING you want all the time... so?.. in democracy you have to make compromises…

The Constitutional court sentence just clarified the legal interpretation of the word nation. According to Spanish law there is only one nation with regards to law, but it acknowledges that nations with other attributes do exist. What do you care anyway? As a Spanish citizen it means you are of both nations, so what do you care? The rest of the Statute was given the green light… so once again..; you didn’t get EVERYTHING… so what?

And no, Catalonia direct, no one is going to bomb Barna and you won’t have the violent reaction that some independentists would love in so they can say “you see they are oppressing us!”, that is not going to happen. And do you know why none of this will happen? Because in the end despite all your accusations about Spanish tyranny, Spain, including Catalonia, is a democratic country. The last general to mention that the army has the responsibility of maintaining territorial integrity… was fired by Zapatero…

As a Spanish citizen your rights are protected. No one can stop you from speaking Catalan, or educating in Catalan, or speak freely about national, religious or cultural identity, you have the exact same legal rights as an individual as every other Spanish person… I fail to see how this constitutes injustice.

MOTSTYLE

10:07 AM ET

vamos!

vamos madrid!

10:20 AM ET

madrid catering

catering in this truly amazing city.

5:31 AM ET

Boring and bored

That's ever fascinating the care that spanish nationalists have against catalan people, they are very afraid about our welfare if Catalonia becomes independent, in the same way a father is afraid against his sons, or a ortodox muslim is afraid about the welfare of his wife if she wants to work by his own. Please, do not be so afraid about us, we are able to walk alone, in fact our government institution, the Generalitat, is the older government institution still working in Spain (it comes from 1359).

Well, as for Mr. Müller, so little to say, when the argumentation fails, he gets the anecdote, the phrase of a single person, got out from the whole paragraph, for to qualify a 7 million people society. Poor, to poor way to discuss.

Finally, answering the last intervention of Ninja, I recommend him to read the two links I posted before. May be he will understand some subjects, may be not. I guess that not, because, in fact, after so many years of trying the understanding with rest of Spain, the last years of continous attacks to our economy and culture, catalans see clear that it is impossible, and the best way, like a couple, is, friendly, to go each one by it's side.

7:51 AM ET

This is very upsetting

The one who suffers verbal abuse is criticised instead of the other one who professed it. This is upsetting.

No, I am not getting into an argument with such people. It makes no sense when you're called a "Spanish nationalist" even though you've openly criticised Spanish centralist nationalism. It makes no sense to talk with people who put on the same level Spain and Serbia, which, if I have understood well, at the referred time was a communist dictatorship and a genocidal regime.

I can only insist that the abuse and the fallacies we read here are commonplace in Spain. Such attitudes can be observed in two reactionary circles, that of the Spanish far-right and that other of Catalan secessionists. Both are increasingly gaining in acceptance within their respective part of the political spectrum, being the quantitative difference that nationalism is already rampant in the whole of the political landscape of Catalonia. This ideology insists on a pretended victim's role much more than its centralist counterpart, much more than its counterpart it makes unfair use of of ideals such as freedom and democracy, and much more it tries to internationalise its efforts based on those false pretenses.

Democracy and the rule of law suffer hugely in the process. Normal, law-abiding people are shuffled aside in a manner that has been very well illustrated by some who have commented above.

11:49 AM ET

Careful Herr Müller

Careful Herr Müller, I can see a vein in your forehead pumping dangerously.

11:17 AM ET

that's better to stop

Mr. Müller, really, I think you do not read the comments instead that repeat your mantra out from the reallity, the pacific willing of so million people to live in pace, by their own, democratically, without to cause any damage to nowbody.

I asume that you believe in divorce in case of couples (I remember you that Catalonia, as part of Aragon Kingdom was one of the parents of the actual spanish state), why this deny to a society to live by their own?.

In this way, how is possible to try to find a middle point, a way to walk in common?, you already have your truth. So, all the people that read the article and comments will have a precise idea about the pros and contras, from my side I'll not wrote more.

6:39 AM ET

Agreed

Well then, no damage to nobody and no harm taken from my side, my pacific buddies.

If living "by" your "own" is what you want, you have my total support.

Here you go.

DAVIDBARNA

12:59 PM ET

Underrepresented and overrepresented

Ninja points out that "Nationalist" parties in Spain (i.e. Catalan, basque etc.) are OVER represented in the national parliament, while other parties (specifically IU and UPyD) are underrepresented given the member allocation system. I'm sorry, but this statement is false. The parties that actually benefit most from the current system are the two biggest (PP and PSOE).

Had a nationwide allocation system were implemented (something that very few countries have in its pure form), the so-called nationalistic parties would get a similar amount of seats, and at least one of them (CiU) could ever improve its results. Instead, the big parties PP and PSOE will lose at least 8 seats each to IU and UPyD. That's why neither PP and PSOE have any interest in change the electoral system.

The reason behind this fact is the way seats are allocated, based on a provincial system which guarantees at least 2 seats per province. That means that in at least 2 out of 3 provinces no more than 6 seats are allocated, giving little room to a third party, unless the share of vote it achieves is above 15%.. By the way, the same system gives more weight to small provinces (such as Soria, Zamora or Teruel) than to the biggest, and most specifically Madrid and Barcelona. The number of votes that one needs to secure a seat there is five or six times bigger than the one needed in the smallest provinces.

One possibility of easing this distortion would be to increase the number of MP from 350 to 400. Changing to a nationwide system is more difficult, since it involves amending the Spanish Constitution and there is no tradition of pure nationwide systems in big countries.

9:25 AM ET

Represented

You are quite right about the electoral system DAVIDBARNA, there is ofcourse an in between solution whihc is the changing of the electoral unit from the province to the Autonomous Community. It seems to me that this less radical solution would be a good start to fixing what we all here agree is a broken system.

Do you not agree?

1:17 PM ET

Another false claim

Rainer Müller states "All which means that Catalan nationalist policies, which are sustained by a middle and upper class (that rules over the administration, the universities and the press) but not by the majority of the population,.". I'm sorry to tell Mr. Müller that this is another false claim. First of all, because middle classes tend to conform the biggest share of citizens in all developed countries ;-)

Secondly, just look at the results of surveys conducted by several institutions, including the Spanish government agency CIS: 55% of the Catalans would prefer a higher degree of autonomy, whereas barely 13.5% of them think that the autonomy granted is excessive. Not surpisingly, these results fit very well when looking at the results in the regional parliament. The parties that defend Spanish-nacionalist policies (PP and Ciudadanos) are only able to get no more than 15% of the votes. And that's why the big Catalan parties, and more specifically the Catalan Socialist Party (PSC) adopt the issues and policies that Mr. Müller considers "Catalan nacionalistic policies sustained by the stablishment".

DGIMENO

11:47 AM ET

History

You can't understand a problem if you simply takes the last picture of it.

The problem comes because Spain is a Grosskastilien for Castille and an Iberian Federation for Catalans. Those two concepts are too much for a single land.

In Germany, for example, everybody accepts the federal organization since 1945. In Spain you can't find one only federalist outside Catalonia (mmm where I say one, let me say 5% of population). Have a look on federalism in Spain since middle 19th century and you will find about 90% of Catalans and 10% of Spanish.

Well, after 35 years of democracy we are "at the end of the street" (Catalan set phrase) now and realised that Spain won't go further in the Autonomy regime and won't become a Federal regime just because they don't want to do so.

So, the choice is to keep being an autonomous region with as much autonomy as today in the best scenario -without the option of becoming a federal state, a bleeding of 10% to 12% of GDP every year, a shrinked Catalan language, flooded economy- or to be an independent country, with all the problems we will find on the road for sure. There are lots of Catalans taking the right decision every passing day... whatever you think or want or desire.

1:58 PM ET

1945?

That would be 1949 for Germany.

The rest of your comment is full of similar flaws. But as I said, you're "by" your "own". I'll simply move to a more livable place.

3:02 PM ET

Clarification

Thank you for your always interesting clarification. Then, since 1949.

And what else flaws did you see? Maybe those 35 years of democracy? Maybe the word democracy? Maybe some commas? Or maybe your opinion doesn't need to be argued because you speak ex cathedra?

Anyway, whether you'll leave us, "good wind and new boat" (Catalan set phrase for "we won't miss you at all").

8:01 PM ET

Flaws (and more)

Do keep your winds to yourself.

But as you ask, and just for the fun of it, here are the flaws and fallacies. "A shrinked Catalan language" is a strange statement when Catalonia is well into the second generation that has been shooled almost exclusively in Catalan, when you have loads of TV-programs, radio stations and newspapers in Catalan, not to speak of books, both fiction and non-fiction, and the administration giving preference to Catalan on every level.

To put Castile as opposite to Catalonia is nonsense, political dynamics in today's Spain does not vow for this. And there are few federalists both in Spain and in Catalonia because in real-life terms there is hardly any difference between the two concepts. If anything, it's an academic issue discussed by few. The complaint that "there are no Spanish federalists" is an invention of those Catalan nationalists who think they offer a smart in-between solution. I have no clue where you could possibly get any figures on the issue from the 19 century. And what the heck is a "flooded economy"?

The figure of 10 to 12% financial "bleeding" is much en vogue nowadays, but the detailed numbers forwarded by nationalist groups do not add up. Needless to say that even if they did this would not be a reason for independence. It wasn't in Germany: things were renegotiated, courts were called upon, limits were set.

All just flaws and fallacies, like those brought up by others on this page: "the 1978 Constitution grants the Spanish Army the power to intervene", as if the army was not under the control of a civilian government. That piece of work came from the same person who likened Spain to the Serbia of the 90s. Actually, Catalonia looks more like it. Serbia was a Yugoslav republic that had territorial aspirations over neighbouring republics, just like Catalonia would have over Aragon, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Murcia and even France, if ever the most extreme nationalists come to rule (of whom, I'm afraid, we have seen some here.)

What is worrying already today is how broadly these fallacies have been accepted as fact. That is because the media are in the hands of the (I correct myself) upper middle and upper classes, who would be the ones to benefit from secession. Today they only rule over an autonomous region.

There is also an "ethnic" element to it, how else could it be. Those on the middle to lower end of the scale are usually Spanish speaking sons and daughters of immigrants from other parts of Spain. It is finally this element that makes Catalan society so vulnerable to the present conflict of identities invented by Catalan nationalists.

Still I see the majority of citizens treating their double identity, being both Spanish and Catalan, with normality. But if the onslaugh of engineered consent continues we're in for interesting times.

7:53 AM ET

August 29, 2010

More fun...

...more fallacies: Catalonia had a parliament already in the 13th century and therefore has a long democratic tradition. As if a parliament of the nobility had anything to do with the people (demos), except for oppressing them. Nevertheless, this one is already so mainstream that it is taught at schools here.

Next one: Franco sent waves of immigrants into Catalonia in order to change its demographics. If now someone wanted to kick them out, how could we not understand! I, like anybody sane, know some fascist policies that have thrived on just this argumentation.

These pieces of literature come from Catalonia Direct, who on his website shows the map of the "Catalan Lands" he wants to re-conquer, while his fellow ideologue UTRX claims that the "Catalan Lands" bear no political meaning anymore today.

If only these people made up their minds to at least have a common strategy! While some try to present Catalan nationalist aspirations as normal, justified, honest and above all friendly, others cannot avoid to openly show their aggressitvity and disrespect.

Whatever. They all defend the same lies. Common ground is a reactionary ideology, and criticising it means you're fair game to be called an extremist and invited to leave the country. I think the situation cannot be more clear-cut.

JMERELO

1:49 PM ET

September 1, 2010

In the name of Identity

First of all, I'd like to thank Rainer Müller. Outside perpspective is not only enriching but also tends to be more objective.

In his book "In the name of Identity", the great libanese writer Amin Maalouf, born in Lebanon and living in France, writes:

"So am I half French and half Lebanese? Of course not. Identity can't be comparmentalised. You can't divide it up into halves or thirds or any other segments. I haven't got several identities: I've got just one, made up of many components in a mixture that is unique to me...."

Opinion polls repeat the same question: Do you feel only Catalan, only Spanish, more Catalan than Spanish, more Spanish than Catalan, or equally both? My answer is: none.

Identity can't be distilled to obtain purity. I am Catalan as I am Spanish because both things have equal meaning. Yet extremists push me to decide, as if it were necesarry to obtain some kind of purity I.D. Spanish extremists and Catalan extremist have this in common. Even more, for them the worse, the better, and they won't stop flaring up the identity debate.

I look at the flags and I see red and yellow, the colors that define both, the Catalan and the Spanish. I look again and I see the four stripes of the Aragon kingdom's flag at the heart of the Spanish's coat of arms. I was born Catalan, son, grandson, greatgrandson, greatgreatgrandon of Catalan people yet I couldn't call home a Spain without Catalonia and a Catalonia without the rest of Spain.

YARINSIZ

12:36 PM ET

September 18, 2010

The new Catalan Statute was

The new Catalan Statute was an attempt at hollowing out the Spanish Constitution, and the Constitutional Tribunal acted coherently. Let's take the very central term "nation". First of all, it has to be noticed that in Spanish "nación" relates mainly to a nation having itself established as a state. sesli sohbet That is why the constitution uses "nationalities" for all those who we could call nations without a state within Spain, giving them ample rights. It is not, however, clear whether it assigns the status of "nationality" to the autonomous province of Catalonia

DANIELLA

5:54 AM ET

September 19, 2010

Man's History has always been

Man's History has always been touched by its look for? difference? and distinction through art, religion, politics and humanities. That explains why there's such everlasting opposition of stages in all these matters. From the building of the great European Empires, we've come to the era of regional independentism, specially in a country where there's just been 365 yrs of democracy.Irony is in the fact that those who desire Catalonia's independence refuse their own inner independentist voices

Foreign Policy Magazine

ETA's 30-year terrorist campaign has fizzled and the Basque dream of independence looks to be dead. Ironically, Barcelona's peaceful campaign for an independent Catalonia has never been stronger -- and it's a nightmare for Madrid.

BY PADDY WOODWORTH | AUGUST 20, 2010

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