This is incorrect. Nation building in the Iberian peninsula has been based on the destruction of the Catalan, Basque and Galician nations by the Castilian-Spanish. With regards to autonomy, Catalonia has the same exact status as any other Castilian-Spanish provinces that are not nations and we have no real power, it only manages the healthcare, education and police. To manage doesn't mean that you have power over it, it can only act like a delegation of the Spanish Government and any laws that the Spanish Government doesn't like can be overridden by a Spanish law.

For instance, the Catalan Statute, the recent Catalan Bullfighting ban or even the Catalan Welcoming and Integration law that the Spanish Ombudsman has appealed since it says that immigrants who live in Catalonia will be integrated preferably in Catalan but the Spanish, using the Sentence on the Statute want to impose Castilian-Spanish, which is not Catalonia's language and makes no sense, hence denying immigrants the possibility of real integration.

www.cataloniadirect.info

Firstly, not all parties backed the Catalan demonstrations, neither the PP and UPyD supported them.

Anyway...

The Catalan independence movement does not focus solely on the independence of the Catalan Autonomous region. Similar to the Balkan term "greater Albania", The goal is the independence and unification of various areas and not of a single current administrative entity.

"Països Catalans" includes The catalan, Valencian and Balearic Autonomous regions, a sliver of the Argaon autonomous region, a city in the Murcian autonomous region, the entire country of Andorra, a piece of France and a city in Sardinia.

This would suggest that a catalan independence would bring about repercussions affecting Spain, France, Italy and Andorra.

There is much less support for this "Greater Catalonia" in these territories, in Valencia for example they refer to their language as Valencian, and not Catalan, and in Andorra there is no political party supportive of this move. In the end many in these territories believe the the entire concept is simply an attempt by Catalonia to annex its neighbours.

The goals are thus very similar to the Basque region's. In that case the independence pursued is for the region itself, Navarre and the French Basque areas.

There is also a nascent movement for the independence of Val d'Aran as they speak a different language, Occitan, and have an unique identity.

Just thought I would add the international dimension to the discussion

Your point of view is that of a Castilian-Spanish nationalist and hence flawed.

First of all, the problem here is one of basic democratic tradition. The current configuration of what you call Spain has been achieved after a few wars, not as a pact between equals. In 1714 the Castilian-Spanish won the succession war and dismantled Catalonia's government institutions and political independence by "right of conquest". Therefore, ever since then the Castilian-Spanish have tried to replicate the centralised design by actively attempting to destroy through cultural imposition and substitution the other Iberian nations and cultures, especially the Catalan one.

Again, in 1939 when Franco's army entered Catalonia it was again with the aim on destroying it as a nation forever. Catalan was forbidden from public use and prosecuted for 4 decades and several waves of Spanish immigration were sent to Catalonia with the aim in converting it into another Castilian-Spanish province. However, they didn't suceed.

Next came the restoration of the Bourbon monarchy. The fascist crimes were never prosecuted. Again, the foundations of the current regime are based on the fascist regime that preceded it. The current configuration is not a federal state, it actually attempts to legitmize the rights of conquest achieved through centuries of armed occupation of the Castilian-Spanish over the Catalans using a pseudo-democratic regime that was achieved after Franco's death through the threat of the still existing fascist state structures and army and a coup d'etat during the initial stages of the Bourbon restoration.

The Spanish Constitution only recognises one nation, the Castilian-Spanish. Only one official language, the Castilian-Spanish and effectively creates several second-class nations: the Catalan, Basque and Galician ones, which are not granted equal rights to Castilian-Spain within the Spanish state. Catalans only want the same rights as the Castilian-Spanish.

Economically, Catalonia currently sustains a fiscal plundering of 22000 million euros. There is a fundamental difference in the way that wealth redistribution works in a federal country like, for instance, the USA and Spain. In Spain there are no control mechanisms or negotiation possible, they just take as much as they see fit.

In fact, they steal 10% of Catalonia's GDP. whereas in the USA, for instance, this amount is limited to 2% of the GDP so as not to damage the most productive areas. Secondly, this wealth redistribution shouldn't under any circumstance leave the donors' welfare below the receivers' but Catalonia goes down 8 positions after wealth redistribution. You can imagine the effect of this plundering on the Catalan economy over several hundreds of years.

The Spanish have a deep lack of democratic culture not having had a Parliament until the 19th century, while Catalonia had the first Parliament in mainland Europe in the 13th century. Spain does not recognise the right of self-determination.

Also, the Spanish media and politicians have always benefited by spreading anti-Catalan racism on a daily basis to gain readers and votes. All of Spanish Government decisions are consciously designed to reinforce Madrid's power and to weaken Barcelona's strength and importance.

When, as a Catalan, you realise this there's only one clear way to go, independence.

www.cataloniadirect.info

"Your point of view is that of a Castilian-Spanish nationalist and hence flawed." If you read this, you know how to take any words that come afterwards.

This is how you discredit the opponent flat out. Here is someone who is eager to define anybody who disagrees with his (secessionist) view as the enemy. There is no dialogue, only ideology, propaganda and the ensuing fallacies and manipulations. It is state of the art of Catalan nationalism.

That is why Catalonia, with its stack of nationalists, is a security risk not only for Spain, but for Europe as a whole.

As you might guess by my name, I am not a Spanish citizen. I am a German living in Catalonia, and I feel quite free to speak my mind on the margins of the local factions. I am nevertheless affected by the goings-on, and worried about the confrontational tone of this dispute.

Spanish and Catalan nationalists, the latter much more than the former, are cooking up a much wider conflict, which makes me wonder if it would not be better to settle elsewhere and take my business and family with me.

You are German? You probably arrived in Catalonia expecting Bullfighting and Flamenco but found something slightly different instead and are disappointed, I've seen many like you.

I don't think we'll drop our culture and cease to exist as a nation just because some foreigner is not happy with it. You must adapt to and respect the country you live in just like I have adapted to all the countries I've lived in. If you can't do it, then I suggest you move to Spain. We don't need you and don't want people like you.

Couldn't help noticing, CATALONIA DIRECT, that your response to our posts all begin with "Incorrect" yet you seem to not correct any of our points.

I have to agree with Rainer, Catalan nationalism seems to be more propaganda then fact.

I did come to Spain (last time I looked Catalonia was part of it). I speak both Spanish and Catalan. I adapt, as is normal, but I will not be treated as a pawn subjected to the political whims of some extremists.

Dear Mr. Müller, that's nice to see the knowledge you show about catalan subjects. It helps a lot to discuss with you, in my case for to disagree about diferent comments you made, as to compare Terra Lliure with ETA.

I'm afraid you are writing about the old catalan nationalism, those that existed during Franco dictatorship, and remained, more or less, during some years during the democracy. It was a freedom catalanism, looking for freedom to brother regions, and even in this case, it was more a cultural expression than a political one. In this sense, the term Catalan countries (Països Catalans) was an idea of a valencian writer, Mr. Joan Fuster, for to made a definition of the cultural zone (in the same way as Hispanoamérica or Latinoamerica, in understand that it's not so terrible to find a name for to design the brother culture lands).

Nowdays, each region of the Països calalans, has it's own way, and everybody knows it, and if you inform better, you will see that only residual extreme-letf organizations still thinks in the Catalan countries as a political future, meanwhile the rest of politicals do not think in this way, neither the independentist organizations. Please, inform better and you will see that's in this way.

I also could discuss about other subjects you mention that I think are wrong, but I see that your argumentation is very closer to those of spanish nationalist newspapers, and, may be not, upon my experience with spanish nationalism, I'm afraid that to try to expose any argumentation would be like to have a wall in front of me, no possibility of middle point or agreement, there only one truth, of course the official truth.

So, only to say one thing more, you said that "....Catalan nationalist policies, which are sustained by a middle and upper class (that rules over the administration, the universities and the press) but not by the majority of the population.....". We'll, let's wait the next electionship, this autum, and you will see if is it really in this way, and in case you be wrong, please, do not made as spanish ultranationalist and ex-president Aznar when he loosed the election ship in Basque coutry, do not say that basque people were an ill population.

See the thing is that if you look around, you are the extermist, we are just catalans who want the normal thing for our country and want the same rights in Europe that you enjoy being a German. In fact, if I was German I'd probably would not want Catalonia to become independent because once we are independent ou guys are gonna have to subsidise the Spanish. Well, it's all your problem for letting such a country in the EU in the first place.

You are the one who is supporting the pseudodemocracy in Spain which is based in Franco's fascist regime's achievements and was written under the threat of weapons and not as a free pact between nations, are you a fascist?

Did you know that the King of Spain has not to date sworn to obey the Spanish Constitution but did swear the Franco's movement principles? Or that Spain's legal system rates 63 out of 160, just below Nigeria in its judicial independence according to the World Economic Forum?

In the meantime, you can have your opinion but Catalonia is still a democracy and if its citizens want to be independent there'll be nothing that will stop them. Especially extremists like you.

It all seems very strange to me these comments coming from someone from a country where the Freistaat status is such a big issue. I live in Bavaria and the status of Bavaria (or any other German state) is more or less exactly what the Catalan want. Here no one would ever consider the Freistaat Bayern to be less than it´s current status and to me it is an public affront to the Catalan people to assume their demand for this status is different and pretend to be an understanding German outsider.

I am Dutch but I was in Barcelona 2002 during the 10 years Olympic games remembrance Event. To me the importance of the return Salamanca Papers had always been clear but that evening my heart feld cold for those who opposed the return.

How a Nation could live with a crime like that was beyond my understanding. The Catalan Cultural inheratance should be in Catalunia and not in a city like Salamanca, it is like shipoping the letter of Independence to London to be kept in the Tower next to the crown jewels.

THAT is what makes the gab between the Castillian and the Catalan. The loothing was a crime but the denial of return was an even bigger crime as it was committed by a European Nation that is supposed to be a democracy!!

It was no longer a Franco fascist regime that deprived a nation of it´s Identity. It was a Nation that denied another Nation it´s cultural and historical Inheritance and with that tried to deprive them of their Identity.

The groups that tried to prefend the return in 2005 and later showed the huge gab between the Spanish and the Catalan even so many years after the Fascist Regime.

JUSTBEINGDUTCH The people supporting the notion that Catalonia is a victim that have been commenting here have not being talking about autonomy within a Spanish Federal state, such as the case in Germany. They are talking about secession.

As to the Salamanca papers, they were returned in 2009 as far as I’m aware.

Dear Dutch friend, have some more time in Germany to understand it. There is no Bundesland where you could find this kind of secessionist nationalism. Quite on the contrary, there are regional cultures and languages that would just love to gain the same legal status as Catalan has in Spain.

Catalans have a lot, their nationalists always want more. Fine by me, but I wish they'd be less manipulative.

Ninja,

I am afraid that your perception of the economic and polticial reality of Catalonia is as out of touch as that of Mr Muller.

Your statement about Catalonia not being self-sufficient is laughable: without the 10-15% fiscal plundering Catalonia would have a standard of living above the Euro area average. But besides, can you please any sovereign state that is completely self-sufficient? (ie. Not reliant on imports of food, goods or capital). None, exactly.

With regards to EU membership, you seem to fall for the fallacy that is peddled by the unionist lobbies in both the UK and Spain. The fact of the matter is that a constituent part of an EU state becoming an independent state does not and will not require approval by other member states. This is now accepted EU jurisprudence, even by Scottish Labour party.

As to the benefits or otherwise of EU membership, just to let you know that Norway and Switzerland have access to the common market and are not EU members.

Can you elaborate on why China would not recognise an independent Catalonia which has achieved said status by democratic means? It was not a problem for the Baltic republics, Slovenia, Croatia, etc, etc.
Sure, Spain would not recognise it. But in the Kosovo example, where is Spain?
In the same side as Russia and China, those bastions of democracy and freedom.
This is what the author is referring to with the description of “dormant dragon of Spanish nationalism”. Any notion of democratic principles is abandoned in favour of siding with China. Need I say more?

You last comments re the political system betray your own bias.
Spain’s upper chamber elections are conducted under a proportional representation system on a wide constituency basis, the province.
Are you suggesting that Spain should move to a single constituency basis? Please name one EU member where this is applied to the main legislative chamber. Exactly, none.

The so-called “nationalist” parties are not over-represented. What happens is that lots of people vote for them and they are the majority parties in their respective areas. Spain, uniquely in the big EU states, already applies the one-constituency basis for EU elections, which results in Catalan/Basque parties being unfairly punished and under-represented in the EU parliament.

I agree that UPyD is under-represented when counting the total number of votes, but so is IU and other parties. The fact of the matter is that no electoral system is perfect but trying to tinker with it so that you can alter the electoral arithmetic to ensure under representation of Catalan/Basque parties in the Spanish parliament to favour Spanish unionism/nationalism is a surefire way of adding fuel to the fire.

If nothing else, if the same principle was applied to Basque and Catalan elections, it would likely result in their respective nationalist parties gaining even more seats and being able to issue a UDI or a referendum bill with an absolute parliamentary majority.

If you are prepare to dish it out, you must be ready to take it….

Trenator, when referring to Catalonia's self-sufficiency, I was not saying that all countries are... but what I was trying to convey is that you were suggesting a non-amicable separation from Spain and THEN maintain access to Spanish resources... very unlikely...

With regards to EU membership... of course a Scottish party will agree that there are no obstacles, but the reality is that membership is dependent on the approval of all member states... as in, all states that are already members... as far as I'm aware Catalonia is not a member of the EU, Spain is.

Norway and Switzerland are indeed not members of the EU but they have signed treaties to enter the European Economic Area... some thing that would naturally be opposed by the Spanish government.

As to your point about China, I will assume you were asleep during the Olympics. China has a huge problem with separatist movements. Just think that China has 56 minorities that together total more the 150 million people... any suggestion that separation in any country is acceptable would add fire to China's own internal issues. This is why China has neither supported the kosovar independence nor the Abkhazian or the Ossetian independences.

Now I'm not suggesting that China and Russia are ideal role models, but recognition by the UN of ANY sovereign state depends on them.. and they would not approve.

Where is Spain with regards to Kosovo?... Suffice to say that Kosovo is not in the EU... and, IF it ever enters it will be dependent on Serbia and kosovo ending all animosity.

Next I find it incredibly distasteful that you would even begin to compare the states of former Yugoslavia with Catalonia. The Yugoslav WARS were brutal and cost the lives of many thousands... that hardly seems even remotely similar to Catalonia's current situation.

My comment on the electoral system in Spain was to point out that politically, in National politics, the partidos nacionalistas have much more weight and influence then is proportional to population... which in the end is the basis for democracy. Many people may indeed have voted for CiU... but less people voted for them then for IU and yet they got 8 seats more! I agree that democracy in Spain leaves a lot to be desired, but I do not agree that the balance is tipped AGAINST partidos nacionalistas!

The last thing I would say about this is that in my eyes, one citizen should have one vote irrespective of geographic location. But I do not want to get into this because the question is Catalonian and Basque Secession.

I will also remind you that in the last Catalan elections in 2006 over 1 million people voted for PSC and the PP... that's well over 33% of the vote... a very large minority... ignoring THAT is not very democratic.

I couldn't help noticing that you did not comment on the video link about the independence of Val d'Aran. THAT is hypocrasy! Why are their arguments any less relevant then yours? When you find the answer, then you will understand the point of view of the the rest of Spain vis-a-vis Catalonia.

I can dish out as much as I receive...

This back and forth can go on forever.

So to move on let me make the following point. I agree with you that the Spanish constitution and Spanish democracy are flawed... Many many voters in Spain agree that this needs to be fixed.

Now explain to me why the ONLY solution is independence!

Democracies have their flaws, agreed, but if every time there was a disagreement then democracies would not exist. Spain is a relatively young democracy, and the constitution is a remnant of the transition. Soon a revision will be necessary, I agree, but there is no reason why all Spanish citizens cannot work together and create something acceptable to all. The PSOE and PP have maintained the current system because it was in their interests. But the entire model is ill suited to the current reality. The constitution, the electoral model and much more needs an overhaul, I could not agree more wholeheartedly, but that STILL does not justify Catalan secession.

In a democracy you have to, peacefully, find a way to collaborate for the greater good, not abandon ship because you do not like the Captain.

So explain to me why secession is a better solution hen democratic reform.

First, Catalonia is part of the EU and will never stop being when it declares independence, or do you think they can deny 7.5 milion catalans who are already europeans their citizenship? don't be ridiculous. In any case, if that was the case then Spanish would also be out from the EU since Catalonia's independence would effectively create two new states.

The fear argument is quite old and doesn't even scare kids anymore.

Secondly, regarding the democratic reform of the Spanish Constitution. It is entirely impossible that such a thing will ever happen.

The presidents of PSOE and PP have made it clear that the current spanish constitution is as far as self-government for Catalonia will ever go and the Constitutional Court's sentence on the Catalan Statute is clear. The will of the Catalans is not respected in Spain, therefore we will exercise our right of self-determination and become independent. How are you guys going to stop that? Will you bomb Barcelona? Will you try to arrest the democratically elected Catalan Government?

Well, when it comes to secession in international relations lets look at the former Yugoslavia… Slovenia separated, and became a new country, Yugoslavia continued to exist, the Croatia left and became a new country requiring recognition, Yugoslavia continued existing. Yugoslavia ceased to exist only after the peaceful separation of Serbia and Montenegro. So if Catalonia did separate then only ONE new country would be created (Catalonia) the “rest’ of Spain would legally continue to be the successor state of the “original” Spain, including all associations and rights (Russia inherited the Soviet seat on the UN security council as the successor state of the USSR). So, Spain would retain its rights as a member of the EU and Catalonia would be in some kind of limbo.

One thing is clear, the EU will NOT allow this to get out of hand and will always support the side that guarantees stability. The Spanish government knows that as long as it plays by EU rules the institutions will continue to support it.

So you believe democratic reform of the Spanish constitution is impossible do you? And why is that? Because the CURRENT political atmosphere is not conducive to reform? This mood can change as it can in any other democracy. Remember that in the great scheme of things Spain has been a democracy for 5mins, just because a thorough constitutional reform has not occurred until now does not mean it can NEVER occur.

The will of Catalonia is not respected in Spain? So you don’t get EVERYTHING you want all the time... so?.. in democracy you have to make compromises…

The Constitutional court sentence just clarified the legal interpretation of the word nation. According to Spanish law there is only one nation with regards to law, but it acknowledges that nations with other attributes do exist. What do you care anyway? As a Spanish citizen it means you are of both nations, so what do you care? The rest of the Statute was given the green light… so once again..; you didn’t get EVERYTHING… so what?

And no, Catalonia direct, no one is going to bomb Barna and you won’t have the violent reaction that some independentists would love in so they can say “you see they are oppressing us!”, that is not going to happen. And do you know why none of this will happen? Because in the end despite all your accusations about Spanish tyranny, Spain, including Catalonia, is a democratic country. The last general to mention that the army has the responsibility of maintaining territorial integrity… was fired by Zapatero…

As a Spanish citizen your rights are protected. No one can stop you from speaking Catalan, or educating in Catalan, or speak freely about national, religious or cultural identity, you have the exact same legal rights as an individual as every other Spanish person… I fail to see how this constitutes injustice.

The one who suffers verbal abuse is criticised instead of the other one who professed it. This is upsetting.

No, I am not getting into an argument with such people. It makes no sense when you're called a "Spanish nationalist" even though you've openly criticised Spanish centralist nationalism. It makes no sense to talk with people who put on the same level Spain and Serbia, which, if I have understood well, at the referred time was a communist dictatorship and a genocidal regime.

I can only insist that the abuse and the fallacies we read here are commonplace in Spain. Such attitudes can be observed in two reactionary circles, that of the Spanish far-right and that other of Catalan secessionists. Both are increasingly gaining in acceptance within their respective part of the political spectrum, being the quantitative difference that nationalism is already rampant in the whole of the political landscape of Catalonia. This ideology insists on a pretended victim's role much more than its centralist counterpart, much more than its counterpart it makes unfair use of of ideals such as freedom and democracy, and much more it tries to internationalise its efforts based on those false pretenses.

Democracy and the rule of law suffer hugely in the process. Normal, law-abiding people are shuffled aside in a manner that has been very well illustrated by some who have commented above.

Careful Herr Müller, I can see a vein in your forehead pumping dangerously.

You are quite right about the electoral system DAVIDBARNA, there is ofcourse an in between solution whihc is the changing of the electoral unit from the province to the Autonomous Community. It seems to me that this less radical solution would be a good start to fixing what we all here agree is a broken system.

Do you not agree?

That would be 1949 for Germany.

The rest of your comment is full of similar flaws. But as I said, you're "by" your "own". I'll simply move to a more livable place.

Thank you for your always interesting clarification. Then, since 1949.

And what else flaws did you see? Maybe those 35 years of democracy? Maybe the word democracy? Maybe some commas? Or maybe your opinion doesn't need to be argued because you speak ex cathedra?

Anyway, whether you'll leave us, "good wind and new boat" (Catalan set phrase for "we won't miss you at all").

Do keep your winds to yourself.

But as you ask, and just for the fun of it, here are the flaws and fallacies. "A shrinked Catalan language" is a strange statement when Catalonia is well into the second generation that has been shooled almost exclusively in Catalan, when you have loads of TV-programs, radio stations and newspapers in Catalan, not to speak of books, both fiction and non-fiction, and the administration giving preference to Catalan on every level.

To put Castile as opposite to Catalonia is nonsense, political dynamics in today's Spain does not vow for this. And there are few federalists both in Spain and in Catalonia because in real-life terms there is hardly any difference between the two concepts. If anything, it's an academic issue discussed by few. The complaint that "there are no Spanish federalists" is an invention of those Catalan nationalists who think they offer a smart in-between solution. I have no clue where you could possibly get any figures on the issue from the 19 century. And what the heck is a "flooded economy"?

The figure of 10 to 12% financial "bleeding" is much en vogue nowadays, but the detailed numbers forwarded by nationalist groups do not add up. Needless to say that even if they did this would not be a reason for independence. It wasn't in Germany: things were renegotiated, courts were called upon, limits were set.

All just flaws and fallacies, like those brought up by others on this page: "the 1978 Constitution grants the Spanish Army the power to intervene", as if the army was not under the control of a civilian government. That piece of work came from the same person who likened Spain to the Serbia of the 90s. Actually, Catalonia looks more like it. Serbia was a Yugoslav republic that had territorial aspirations over neighbouring republics, just like Catalonia would have over Aragon, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Murcia and even France, if ever the most extreme nationalists come to rule (of whom, I'm afraid, we have seen some here.)

What is worrying already today is how broadly these fallacies have been accepted as fact. That is because the media are in the hands of the (I correct myself) upper middle and upper classes, who would be the ones to benefit from secession. Today they only rule over an autonomous region.

There is also an "ethnic" element to it, how else could it be. Those on the middle to lower end of the scale are usually Spanish speaking sons and daughters of immigrants from other parts of Spain. It is finally this element that makes Catalan society so vulnerable to the present conflict of identities invented by Catalan nationalists.

Still I see the majority of citizens treating their double identity, being both Spanish and Catalan, with normality. But if the onslaugh of engineered consent continues we're in for interesting times.

...more fallacies: Catalonia had a parliament already in the 13th century and therefore has a long democratic tradition. As if a parliament of the nobility had anything to do with the people (demos), except for oppressing them. Nevertheless, this one is already so mainstream that it is taught at schools here.

Next one: Franco sent waves of immigrants into Catalonia in order to change its demographics. If now someone wanted to kick them out, how could we not understand! I, like anybody sane, know some fascist policies that have thrived on just this argumentation.

These pieces of literature come from Catalonia Direct, who on his website shows the map of the "Catalan Lands" he wants to re-conquer, while his fellow ideologue UTRX claims that the "Catalan Lands" bear no political meaning anymore today.

If only these people made up their minds to at least have a common strategy! While some try to present Catalan nationalist aspirations as normal, justified, honest and above all friendly, others cannot avoid to openly show their aggressitvity and disrespect.

Whatever. They all defend the same lies. Common ground is a reactionary ideology, and criticising it means you're fair game to be called an extremist and invited to leave the country. I think the situation cannot be more clear-cut.