Talking to Main Street, China

In ignoring -- or botching the message to -- the Chinese public, the Obama administration is only making its policy choices more difficult.

BY YASHENG HUANG | NOVEMBER 8, 2010

Looking at the seemingly inscrutable actions of the men who rule Beijing, Washington often assumes many in the Chinese government to be anti-American, whereas the Chinese public is pro-American. The reality is almost exactly the opposite. Among the Chinese general public, there has always been a strong suspicion that the United States has a well-crafted, carefully thought-out, and coherent strategy to contain China. In the most extreme version of this conspiracy theory, everything is a part of the plot. Criticism of China's record on human rights? A bid to undermine the government in Beijing. Pressure on the central bank to revalue the yuan? Obviously part of an attempt to inflict a "Japan malaise" on China. Even private actors such as Goldman Sachs and Google are sometimes portrayed in popular books and publications as America's foot soldiers and loyal pawns in this grand strategy.

U.S. President Barack Obama's current trip to Asia -- to India, Indonesia, South Korea, and Japan, conspicuously skipping and encircling "one big red dot," as one reporter recently put it -- is likely to fan this conspiracy theory even further. One can blame China's official propaganda organs and tight information controls for fostering these outlandish views of the United States. No doubt there is some truth to that, but the United States has consistently failed to communicate its intentions and its actions to the broader Chinese public, which, despite the infamous Great Firewall, is enjoying newfound media freedom thanks to the Internet.

The health of the relationship between China and the United States no longer depends simply on handshakes and backroom deals between officials in the White House and in Zhongnanhai. Just look at the recent midterm elections in the United States: 29 candidates, either directly or indirectly used political ads that bashed political opponents over their positions on China, according to the New York Times. When it comes to China policy, increasingly, Main Street matters. Chinese public opinion is also beginning to loom large in a range of issues critical to Sino-U.S. relations, such as the exchange rate, the role of domestic consumption in Chinese growth, and private-sector development. Yet the foreign-policy establishment in Washington has behaved as if Sino-U.S. relations were still the exclusive province of Nixon and Kissinger and of Mao and Zhou. The United States has not seriously tried to make its case and communicate its views directly to the Chinese public.

Of course, this isn't easy in a country that heavily restricts press freedom. But technology is beginning to crack a few holes in Beijing's system of media control. There are now more than 300 million Internet users in China, about the same size as the entire population of the United States. On top of that, China has 700 million mobile-phone subscribers -- and both categories are expanding by tens of millions of people each year.

Yet for some inexplicable reason, U.S. administrations have always chosen the most censored, tightly controlled medium to communicate with the Chinese public. In 2009 Obama's town-hall meeting in front of a live TV audience completely failed to resonate with most Chinese because the censors made sure that only the most banal questions were posed for discussion. (Sample: "Shanghai will hold the World Exposition next year. Will you bring your family to visit the Expo?") Contrary to how it was interpreted in the Western media, the Chinese censors also limited those questions critical of the United States. They did not want to embarrass Obama.

The U.S. administration has also made its case in ways that can alienate the Chinese public. On human rights, the United States has always voiced strong criticisms of China on Tibet and on its treatment of dissidents. These criticisms typically backfire with ordinary Chinese because they are viewed as challenging Chinese cultural values and political norms. They also ignore issues that have far greater resonance in Chinese society at large, particularly in the area of property rights. When elderly widows are forcibly evicted from their homes or entrepreneurs suddenly lose the assets they have toiled for years to build, these are the "teachable moments" about why human rights and due process matter.

On the currency issue, for example, the United States consistently picks arguments that do not resonate with ordinary or even educated Chinese. The weakest of the arguments is that China has a responsibility to strive for balance in trade between the two countries. But exactly why should China bear any more responsibility for the imbalances than the United States, with its high consumption and low savings rate? The truth is that both countries are responsible -- the United States through its macroeconomic excesses and China through its currency policies. To place all the onus on Beijing legitimately strikes many Chinese as extremely unfair.

There is another problem with this argument: It amounts to asking the Chinese to sacrifice jobs in the export sector to create the impression that the United States is doing something for its unemployed. This is hardly a winning argument on the streets of Chongqing and Guangzhou. The Chinese, the vastly poorer of the two countries, are being asked to reduce their living standards so that American politicians can feel good about doing something for their voters. The insult to injury goes even deeper than that -- those Chinese who stand to lose most from a currency revaluation hail from the poorest, most vulnerable segment of the  population: rural migrant laborers.

To be sure, the vast majority of serious economists are absolutely right that in the long run, a currency revaluation is in the interest of the Chinese. But this is politics, where the issue is not about the technocratic intricacies of who is right and who is wrong. The Obama administration has chosen to frame the discussion in ways that are offensive to Chinese while shunning arguments that have a better chance of resonating. For example, one could argue that a currency revaluation may aid China in its aspirations of becoming a producer not just of cheap and labor-intensive products, but also a center of innovation and technology. This argument would go down better in China both because it is based on a rationale that emphasizes serving and enhancing Chinese interests and because it fits with the technological ambitions of many Chinese.

For too long, the United States has not paid attention to an important force in the Chinese economy: the rise of indigenous entrepreneurs. This is in sharp contrast to the U.S. approach in India. During his India trip, Obama met with 25 Indian entrepreneurs, soliciting their views on job creation and business expansion. Chinese private entrepreneurs have never received similar treatment from a U.S. president. Soon after Google decided to terminate its search-engine business in China, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that the United States deplored restrictions on the Internet and called for web freedom in China. This was a laudable speech, but it may have had the unintended effect of conveying the sense that only foreign firms, such as Google, stand for Internet freedom, whereas Chinese Internet companies do not. The simple fact is that even before Google's exit, the vast majority of Internet activities were provided by entrepreneurial Chinese companies, such as Baidu.com, Sina.com, and Sohu.com. Google's exit simply provided more space for their growth. Many of these Internet companies are run by ambitious, U.S.-educated Chinese entrepreneurs. The Internet revolution in China -- which has vastly expanded the free exchange of ideas and goods -- is a cumulative result of the vision, successes, and technological savvy of both foreign and Chinese entrepreneurs. The administration should be careful, both in words and in deeds, not to pit the interests of Chinese and foreign businesses against each other.

In the next two years, both China and the United States will have some monumental political and policy issues to grapple with. China faces a leadership transition in 2012, and Obama will also be judged in 2012 on whether he has delivered growth and prosperity. China will figure prominently in how Obama tackles this challenge, and engagement is the only viable option. But to engage only with official Beijing is no longer enough. It is vital that American leaders learn to communicate more effectively with the Chinese people -- lest the conspiracy theorists do the communicating for them.

Guang Niu/Getty Images

 

Yasheng Huang is a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management, author of Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics, and founder of China Lab and India Lab, which help entrepreneurs in those countries improve their management.

BEAR51

9:09 PM ET

November 8, 2010

The Bigger Challenge

I note that about 250 BC Lao Tsu stated that the "The wise rule by emptying minds and stuffing bellies"; I suggest that this political and cultural idea continues in many autocratic countries, where to "... get rich is glorious..."; China is simply the epitome of this model of rule. The people of China learn of statements and information regarding other countries' positions on trade, human rights and oppression based upon how and what the autocrats in Beijing want the people to learn; the few "cracks" in this control are insignificant and short-lived. The bargain made by Beijing to keep the collective belly full, while applying the anesthesia of information control means that "getting the message through to the people" is unlikely; even if it were uncensored, it would be repelled by a population that has been taught a nationalistic perspective, stinted by misinformation, with a vested interest in national "harmony" (personal economic self-interest). Since the US has weakened itself economically and commercially as a junkie of cheap credit and manufacturing production, we have few obvious levers to move to gain cooperation from the regime in Beijing; however, the Bargain the ruling autocrats in Beijing have made with the people is also its own achilles heel. If bellies begin to feel empty then, well, perhaps Beijing will start to feel mortal and become a more reasonable negotiator across multiple issues. Perhaps US policy ought to consider that lever...

 

FLOATINGPOINT

1:49 AM ET

November 9, 2010

If bellies begin to feel empty...

Then US can definitely have its way without considering what China thinks. But are you sure at that time US can have full bellies at home?

On the other hand, I have this feeling that a truly democratic China would be America's worst nightmare. Do you really want to democratize China any time soon?

 

DR. JONES JR.

6:42 AM ET

November 10, 2010

@ Floating Point

To address your last comment--that a democratic China might not be in foreign interests--I think you miss the point. I've heard the argument made a few times before, and I can see why the Chinese elite would distrust the will of the masses. I don't think you're going to convince the rest of the world to distrust the Chinese masses, however, when the Chinese elite are busy harping on the very same anti-foreigner chauvinist and/or populist arguments that supposedly make the plebs so dangerous.

I suppose the author of this article is basing his opinion that the elites in Beijing like America better than the common Chinese on the possibility--I'm not well placed enough to know if this is true--that backroom conversations are more balanced and quid pro quo than the chest-thumping one hears from leaders' speeches and from Party mouthpieces. Again, it matters not. The Party is going to increasingly find itself bound by the will of the people, and chauvinistic sorts of populism are going to be the easier road to walk, by far, than adherence to popular grievances on domestic issues. Democratic or authoritarian, I think China is headed in a very dangerous direction; if neither option makes much difference in terms of anti-foreigner rhetoric, of course we will still be more comfortable with a transparent, accountable government.

As for what democracy in China might entail (in the near term), I think there are few if any people who imagine it would amount to more than intra-party democratic reforms or limited franchise. What this article discusses is missed opportunities for "teachable moments" that would be equally valuable no matter the form of China's politics.

 

YUAN SAVVY

9:50 AM ET

November 15, 2010

The Only Challenge is...

There is only one challenge... that is in globalization and that is for everyone to adjust to the unity of mankind through justice and equality.

This means the Americans have to learn to live with exactly what the Chinese can live by. That is if every 70 families in China have one car, then every 70 families in America should have only one car or if a Chinese Doctor, University Professor lives in a one bedroom apartment then the American Doctor or University Professor should learn to live in a one bedroom apartment with his family. This is the only challenge.

Oh by the way, if the Americans are not working as hard and as long as their counterparts in China or are not at motivated or educated then they should settle for less - that is fair and just. This equalization of standards of living globally requires a great downward adjustment in American standard of living while others struggle to improve their standards to what Americans have undeservedly enjoyed for the last 2 decades on credit cards. But for the Wall Street frauds and American government lies - the global move toward equal standards of living or what the American economists call PARITY would have happened much faster and easier. There is no way out, this is the divine plan.

Now, give me the next Noble prize in economics for making it so simple.

 

YUAN SAVVY

10:15 AM ET

November 15, 2010

"Transparent Government"? Give me a Break!

If you could get passed the marketing hoopla and propaganda, you would see the more transparent government is China not the U.S.

I know Americans that are leaving America in disgust and migrate to other parts of the world after having their freedom of speech removed by the courts and threatened with serious penalties if they continued to expose the Feds and the Bankers' scams. And this is the treatment that those really in love with the country would get if they really tried to improve things and stop the injustice.

What do you think is behind the massive Brain-Drain that is going on in the U.S.? This is the number one cause of the U.S. economic demise and not Yuan devaluation. There is no economic gimmick or financial game that Bernanke, Geithner, Obama or the government of the U.S. can pull that can compensate for uneducated, lazy, overpaid and selfish U.S. workforce facing the challenge from motivated, educated and hardworking workforce of China, India, south east Asia or south America.

 

ALEXBC

1:46 AM ET

November 9, 2010

I think the communication

I think the communication problem is as multifaceted as you allege the trade problem is. That is, while the US has engaged in tin-eared, restrictive "dialogue" via censored Chinese media organs, China's regime has also maintained those same organs and, in turn, its overall censorship facade. Neither side is helping the case. There are valuable voices to be heard in China's underground media, just as there are voices in the US that would likely favor more engagement with China. The state, though, gets in the way on both sides of the Pacific.

The contrasting US treatment of China and India is no surprise, given that India has not erected the same wall (or, at least, semblance of a wall) to the complete free flow of information. Then there are cultural issues: India as (somewhat) Anglophone nation, India as democracy, India as a services economy. The US and India are also anomalies in that they are large countries with healthy/youthful demographics going forward. I think, looking back, we will wonder why the "G-2" was originally America/China and not America/India

 

XTIANGODLOKI

12:57 PM ET

November 9, 2010

Some good points here

I disagree with the notion that Chinese people are anti-America and the government is pro-America. In this case the author is probably confusing America with Japan. If anything Chinese are extremist realistic and respect American power. There is a heavy anti-Japan sentiment going on in the general populace.

The reason why Obama and other US presidents will not give Chinese entrepreneurs some face time is because it would complicate US politicians on both sides of the isle from using sinophobia to get votes. Plus, even if Obama does meet with Chinese entrepreneurs you will get pundits from all angles questioning whether Obama is trying to sell American jobs (outsourcing) or technology to China if China agrees to import US goods. There is no reason for Obama to take such risks. The reason why Obama can do this with India is because India is not as powerful as China today. When and if India start to become more assertive like China (it will in a few decades) it will get the same public treatment by US politicians as China is receiving today.

The points about miscommunication from both sides are very true. IMO the issue lies mostly with Western MSM, its general ignorance and agendas. Rather than focusing on areas where the average Chinese would agree on, property rights, corruption, etc, the Western media's typical attempt to pitting the average Chinese against its minorities has the reverse effect of pushing the moderate Chinese into taking an anti freedom of speech and pro-government stance. The western media then labels the same moderate Chinese, many who are pro-reform, to be organs of Chinese propaganda machine. The majority of the western voices on China seem to intent on forcing its agendas (which is often not in China's best interests) on China, then wonder why are the average Chinese are not applauding.

 

FREETRADER

10:35 AM ET

November 10, 2010

So, XTIANG...

The Western MSM is attempting to pit "the average Chinese against its minorities..."? Well, that's IS an interesting conspiracy, I'll grant you that. By why would the Western MSM have such an agenda? And why would the average Chinese give a damn about what the Western MSM says about China? I don't think the average Westerner really cares what is said about them in the Chinese press. Why would the Chinese?

 

XTIANGODLOKI

11:50 AM ET

November 10, 2010

why?

"By why would the Western MSM have such an agenda?"

Since the cold war it was the interest of the Western nations to contain China. Free Tibet movement started out as a CIA initiative. Freetrader sounds like one of these naive folks who thinks that Western MSM cannot be used as a government propaganda tool. The MSM for example was used by the US government to drum up support for the Iraq War. Why wouldn't western governments use MSM to pressure China?

"And why would the average Chinese give a damn about what the Western MSM says about China? I don't think the average Westerner really cares what is said about them in the Chinese press. Why would the Chinese?"

Because the Chinese media's depiction of the average Westerner is more objective and less insulting? Other than blinding arrogance I don't know why the average Westerner would not care about how Chinese media portrays them actually. If they want to Chinese to buy their goods and services, which is a big topic nowadays in the US, then they should care about their image in the Chinese media.

 

FREETRADER

8:39 PM ET

November 10, 2010

@XITIANG

Well, no need for a point-by-point refutation here. You reveal your Xinhua origins with your ridiculous assertions about "Western media being a tool of the CIA". Obviously, complete BS. I love the part about the Dalai Lama being some sort of CIA creation - that's just wonderful. Oh, yeah, Richard Gere and all those Hollywood actors - they ALWAYS support the US government's line, don't they?

The fact is that no country has been a better friend to China, since 1972 (and for that matter, before 1949) than the US. And you, my friend, are either a knave or a fool.

 

JOSHUAXANADU

4:52 AM ET

November 11, 2010

@FreeTrader

Your automatic ad hominem attacks on XTIANGODLOKI as a "Xinhua" mouthpiece is disappointing, if not so common for the type of responses I've seen online to anyone who doesn't echo the same strident anti-China attacks.

What's more pathetic is all these expats who claim some iota of expertise on Chinese public opinion just because they've spent a few years there in China, likely most of the time with other expats.

The author of this article raises some constructive points, and I'm not surprised its written by Chinese American, who tend (with exceptions, of course) to make a more successful effort to understand the core cultural and political issues in China. Yes, I'm making a Sonya Sotomeyer moment, at least on this issue.

I appreciate that the author does not shy away from criticizing the Chinese government's many faults, but he boldly attempts to translate a more accurate picture to help inform American (and Western) policy to affect positive liberal democratic changes.

Folks like myself deplore the current ruling authoritarianism, but we also understand why the CCP has been so successful in staying in power and maintaining generally popular support. We refuse to believe that the Chinese public are simply propaganda-misled sheep (a common Western trope of the automaton Asiatic cultures), because we talk to our friends, our relatives, and see everyday the rich diversity and originality in the Chinese people. To me, the author is simply taking a page out of the Art of War -- to defeat your enemy, you have to understand it.

So call me what you will -- 50-cent shill, Xinhua mouthpiece, traitor -- just because I don't echo the pablum of typical anti-China ravings. It's almost as if there's an insecurity of all these supposed "China experts" (99 percent white men) are afraid of a little self-reflection of their own biases.

 

FREETRADER

10:03 AM ET

November 11, 2010

Hey Buddy,

I responded to your remark, above. Unlike you, I'm not going to take up space on this forum by posting the same remarks twice. The article may have some good points - Xtian doesn't. Anyone who posits that the Dalia Lama is CIA-funded goon deserves to public humilian he gets in a non-Xinhua-sponsored forum.

 

XTIANGODLOKI

10:20 AM ET

November 11, 2010

Odd

I provided an example of how the US government used MSM as a propaganda tool to drum up the Iraq war and the best thing you can do is to accuse me of being a Xinhua agent? LOL what are you, 12?

If you want to learn more about Tibet you can try reading academic books on Tibet sometimes. CIA's Secret War in Tibet is a good start on how CIA operations work in general. It's written by Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison who are actually for Tibet Independence.

As for US being China's BFF, surely you are not naive enough to believe that countries do things out of good will right?

 

FREETRADER

6:05 AM ET

November 12, 2010

XTIANG...

Your first two paragraphs aren't worthy of response.

Your last paragraph, however, I will respond to. The US didn't become China's friend out of the goodness of its heart, and I didn't say it did (although there has always been an element of idealism in America's relationship with China - after all, the US went to war with Japan once to protect China - it's just too bad for China that the aftermath of the war ended up benefitting Japan). The reason the US became China's friend was because the relationship benefited both parties. Which is exactly why the PRC needs to be careful that, as they get marginally more powerful, they don't continue on their current path of being increasingly reviled. If China has any friend in the World these days, it is the USA; and in fact, strategically the US is the only possible major ally that China could ever have. It isn't going to help China to alienate its only possible friend.

 

RUZY

10:23 PM ET

November 12, 2010

friend,enemy or interest?

friend,enemy or interest?
There are no eternal friends and eternal enemies, only eternal interests!
Don't you think so?

 

FREETRADER

11:09 PM ET

November 13, 2010

@Ruzy

Yes, I do think so.

 

BENBOOTHE

11:37 PM ET

November 9, 2010

China and Obama

A high placed American reported to me that when Obama spoke to the Chinese leaders on economic matters, Chinese officials said: "We don't think we need the U.S.A. to lecture us on economics, in light of what has happened in the USA." The Chinese have been cool to Obama, and it appears that Obama was irked by the Chinese, then later intimidated by their aloof stance.

China, is of course in economic competion, some call it economic war, with the USA, and with every nation that competes with them. They consider themselves the new world leaders and fully expect to dominate the world.

Our company visits China often and we continue to be impressed by the cities there that dwarf anything in the USA, in terms of growth, population, and scale of modernity.

Unfortunately, the Chinese, become less willing to work with the USA as a "stepchild" and their reaction during these most recent months verifies what we will see in the future from them.

Ben Boothe Sr.
Publisher, Bootheglobalperspectives.com

 

FREETRADER

10:29 AM ET

November 10, 2010

@Ben

China is hardly at war with the USA, it is in fact economically dependent on it. I did like your take on the current arrogance of the regime - as if one banking crisis in the West washes away sixty years of mass murder and economic mismanagement in China.

 

DOBERMANMACLEOD

6:21 AM ET

November 10, 2010

Western dominance of China no longer certain (or productive)

Unless the US has a strategy for breaking apart China (like we did to the USSR), we better devise a strategy for cooperation. Just the Chinese demographic of a majority of young males will make this century very dangerous in terms of Chinese belligerence and aggressiveness. Let me remind you that before China's rise, it was thought that successful economic reform had to be accompanied by increasing political freedom and openness. I wouldn't count on China's obvious limits to growth (i.e. environmental degradation, increasing demands of laborers, and the difficult logistics of keeping such a vast country united) to postpone China's growing sphere of influence and consequential challenge of Western homogeneity and dominance.

In other words, the current paradigm of Western dominance better change or triumph, or we are in for a turbulent 21st century.

 

RUZY

10:53 PM ET

November 12, 2010

you are so smart

haha,you are so smart! At this time democracy can be very useful,it is the best way to break apart of China.When China carry out democracy, then we can control some parts of them,to make them war to each other.we needn't send anysoldier ,but we can send democracy to them to make them in to pieces.
At that time ,China will become dozens of countries!Then we can kill any country of them if we want.
this strategy is so cool!maybe the USA will carry it out very soon! Unite all the western countries to pressure China on human rights, force it to carry out democracy!then make it into pieces.how useful is the democracy.
After that,we never worry about China,we also can get lots of wealth from it to support our economy!

 

RUZY

11:09 PM ET

November 12, 2010

you are so smart!

you are so smart!if we want to break apart of China,the best way is use democracy.
when China carry out democracy political system,we can control some parts of them,to make them war to each other.Maybe a civil war will begin. then we can make China into pieces,become dozens of countries,but never need send a soldier.
democracy is so useful,which can help us a lot.Maybe Obama can unite all the countries to pressure China on human rights ,force it to carry out democracy.Then we can see a pieces of China.
so cool is the strategy! just do it. then we can never worry about China.

 

FREETRADER

10:24 AM ET

November 10, 2010

Who Cares?

As someone who lived for a few years and China and knows the place well, I find this concern with the common man of China extremely misplaced. First of all, China is not nearly as important as the press makes it out to be, and far less important than the average Chinese thinks his country is. Secondly, any sort of 'dialogue' with the Chinese people is impossible. Although it is true that the internet has greatly opened communications, the mass of Chinese is only too willing to believe the lies told by their betters in Beijing; particularly about economic issues and Chinas pending encirclement.

There is only one group of people who will benefit from American attempts to craft a 'message' suitable for Chinese consumption, and that is the thugrocract in Beijing. Genuflecting to the government is inevitably heraded as Western Weakness (see, for example, the restraint recently shown by Japan w/r/to the drunken Chinese captain - although I don't think that Tokyo was ever naive enough to assume that their restraint would garner any thanks from Beijing).

The best thing the Chinese could do for their nation (besides anything 'impossible', such as say, democracy) would be to get a grip on how their are quickly becoming disliked and feared throughout the rest of Asia, which is resulting in increased American presence in the region, at the requestion of China's neighbors including Japan, Korea, Taiwan, India, The Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Australia, etc. Until China cleans up its act both internelly or internationally, they are doomed to be a global outsider. The people of China will, not doubt, blame the USA for their isolation, but the true fault, alas, lies much more close to home.

 

FREETRADER

10:26 AM ET

November 10, 2010

Sorry -

for the typos. Didn't edit carefully, I'm afraid.

 

XTIANGODLOKI

12:31 PM ET

November 10, 2010

Oh RLY?

", the mass of Chinese is only too willing to believe the lies told by their betters in Beijing; particularly about economic issues and Chinas pending encirclement."

I am interested in just how you came to this conclusion. What popular forums do you read in order to form this opinion in order to generalize the "mass of Chinese". Can you even read Chinese? Because if you did, you will find that Chinese make millions of posts complaining about various economic issues from inflation to housing in China. The Chinese are not nearly as blind as your average expat in China.

"The best thing the Chinese could do for their nation (besides anything 'impossible', such as say, democracy) would be to get a grip on how their are quickly becoming disliked and feared throughout the rest of Asia"

You are confusing Chinese government with the people again. What good would it do for the average Chinese to know that they are becoming "disliked"? And what does being "disliked" mean anyway? According to PEW global research more countries "like" china better than the US. The question for other Asian nations is simple really: On the long term would it be their best interest to bow down to American hegemony or Chinese hegemony. Currently US hegemony sounds a lot more pleasant because the US is a bigger superpower. However for most of these asian nations, China is their number one importer of goods and their future revenue growth are heavily dependent on China's demands. Without China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan would immediately enter a recession. So these nations' depends on China just like China depends on the US. If there is anything the Chinese could do it would be to become even more efficient at what they do; improve the quality of their products while reducing the price.

 

FREETRADER

8:42 PM ET

November 10, 2010

@XITIANG

In answer to your questions, yes, yes and yes. I do in fact, know what I am talking about, and furthermore, am quite capable of distinguishing between the people and the government of China. That doesn't impact my comments in the slightest, in fact, it provides the basis for them.

 

XTIANGODLOKI

10:38 AM ET

November 11, 2010

Refusing to answer the simpliest questions dosn't help

It's rather telling that when I ask Freetrader how how he came to his conclusion about views on the Chinese people, he employed the same old circular flawed logic that because he knows what he talking about therefore he is right.

Wishful thinking is ignorance in the making Freetrader, and I am actually fairly shocked at naive views on China although you claimed to live there for years and post quite often on FP. I guess you can't make a small minded person anything greater even you put that person in a dynamic environment, a sad but somewhat common thing among the expats in China.

 

FREETRADER

5:52 AM ET

November 12, 2010

Um, ah,

I answered your questions and I think it is clear that my opinions about China, which you are not required to agree with, are based on something more substantial than reading the China Daily.

 

RUZY

11:36 PM ET

November 12, 2010

to FREETRADER

where did you get the substantial? give the evidence for us,or your conclusion can't stand!

 

FREETRADER

11:14 PM ET

November 13, 2010

@Ruzy

Are you seriously suggesting that China Daily provides 'substantial' information? Or, alternatively, are you challenging me to list the many thousands of sources of information that are available in the West that AREN'T controlled by the CCP?

Also, while I appreciate your efforts to write in a language you clearly aren't very familiar with, I hope your English continues to improve.

 

YUAN SAVVY

11:09 AM ET

November 15, 2010

Update Your Knowledge, Balance Your Views, Be Fair and Just

FREETRADER - Double check your facts- I do not recall any invitation of American forces by any legitimate government. On the other hand recent invitations of China by African and Asian countries for economic cooperation (non-military), I do recall!

Japan, Germany, Panama, Korea, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Iran, Sudan and Afghanistan are some of the countries invaded or attacked by U.S. in the recent memory.

I have also worked and lived in China and the USA for decades - China no doubt is rising and the U.S. is falling economically. For each rise and fall the nations have no one to credit or blame but themselves. The globalization favors equilibrium and equal standards of living - or parity for all nations regardless.

The key factor is justice- the corruption of the justice system in the U.S. and the continuous improvement of justice system in China has been the number one factor in both the rise and the fall of these two economies! Get rid of the attorneys and corrupt federal and state judges to start the fundamental repair.

 

PUBLICUS

10:31 AM ET

November 10, 2010

Radio Free China aka VOA online?

There are many good points raised here, but the fact remains the firewall is real and is only being reinforced and extended. There can't be any Radio Free China or VOA online. The US and the West are limited to penetrating the firewall only occasionally in cracks or until the mortar dries.

The Chinese population believes that which they are told and in the ways they are told. Educated Chinese especially continue to accept and believe the price of gas/petrol in China is high because the US is invaded Iraq, not because the Beijing government sets and keeps it high to limit domestic demand of goods and services. (The developing Chinese have clothes washing machines but 90% haven't ever heard of a clothes drying machine or a dishwasher.)

The attack ads against the PRC during the recent political season in the US amount to nothing compared to the daily barrage of anti-US indoctrination the Chinese continually get all their lives on the 44 channel same-same CCTV. This is true whether it's news or entertainment programming. Indeed, the Chinese get the daily barrage in the schools, at home, in the society, in the culture. Consider the US having only slight variations of Fox News on all of our (limited number) of channels, every one - and nothing but.

Yes, this does drive some Chinese to the internet and to underground politics. But only some. Of 300 million internet users and those who are cell phone owners in the PRC, perhaps only several million venture into this dangerous (in several ways) subterranean domain. While no one can state with quantitative accuracy the number of those Chinese who dare, reasonable and calm estimates can be presented.

There of course are systems that beat the PRC censors and force them to pound at the mole, occasionally to smack it on the nose. That is, a few minutes after a PRC censor catches up with an discretely sourced 'unblock' and 'uncensor' system to shut it off, the subtle system creates a new routing that again circumvents the censors. Eventually the censors manage to identify and squelch that system routing but never the discrete system. Once the censors sever a particular routing, virtually immediately a new 'unblock' system sprouts up yet again. Welcome to the PRC, the cycle repeats itself every few months.

Google for example continues (with MSN) to operate its system, "UltraReach Unblock and Uncensor" from Google's new China refuge in Hong Kong. However, it and similar systems are limited. Using any one of the several "unrestricted access" systems available to the tech savvy in the PRC, one can access PROHIBITED sites such as FaceBook and YouTube but little else. While I was living and working in the PRC I tried by every available 'unblock' means to access such sites as "Chinasucks.com" and the "Epoch Times," the latter being an intellectually respectable journal, but experienced only limited success. (I could use these various 'unblock' systems to access FP but always had trouble trying to make a written post - always.)

To end a longer diary here, I would say Mr. BENBOOTHE above and I appear to be on the same page both in our respect of the developing segment of the PRC and ultimately in our concerns about the direction of the PRC as a whole. For all of the present accomplishments of the PRC, they remain limited, and the PRC remains corrupt through and through, always controlling and eternally punishing of any variation.

(There continues to be 800 000 000 Chinese who live in abject poverty on USD $2 day or less. Those Chinese, who range from the ignored to the neglected, keep hearing from family, relatives and villagers who went to the big city about the money they are making, even working in factories.)

 

XTIANGODLOKI

12:52 PM ET

November 10, 2010

So you support government propaganda

1. So Western government's propaganda via state run programs like VOA, but the Chinese state run propaganda are. If you are going to pretend to care about Chinese people put yourself in their shoes for one sec and ask yourself one question "Is the goal of VOA/Radio Free whatever to advance Chinese interest, or is to advance the interest of whatever the nation (US) which is funding these programs"? The Chinese government definitely wants to remain in power, but at least its interest is aligned with the Chinese people: The happier the people the longer they will remain in power.

2. If the anti-US indoctrination is so pervasive in China why the heck would Chinese buy things made in the US? Why are there so many more GM cars in China than Toyota? Why are American pop icons so popular in China? There is definitely a pro-Chinese government indoctrination in China but that isn't even work all that well. Never mind the "underground" channels, a medium which only the Chinese illiterate expats form their (often) misinformed opinions on, if you want to see Chinese complaining about their government you simply need to log onto China's most popular forums such as Tainya and MOP.

3. Finally, Epoch Times is a "intellectually respectable journal"? LOL.

 

XTIANGODLOKI

12:54 PM ET

November 10, 2010

silly typos.

Should read: So Western government's propaganda via state run programs like VOA is okay, but the Chinese state run propaganda are not.

 

PUBLICUS

3:30 AM ET

November 11, 2010

@XTIANGODLOKI

Yes the Chinese do post to Chinese language discussion boards in the PRC to share their views about such matters as the high cost of housing, the persistent existence of poverty in the countryside, the desperate of need education reform, the need for political reform and, in addition to many other concerns, to complain roundly about the deeply rooted and endemic corruption that permeates and dominates every aspect of PRC life.

And they get censored. Their posts quickly disappear. Indeed, in the most developing provinces anyone who posts to a discussion board is required by law to also post his/her national ID number with each and every post. Serious and effective discussion is just not allowed. In fact it is PROHIBITED.

Propaganda is a Cold War term. Are you still in the earlier Cold War or are you involved in a new Cold War? The discussion concerns how the US and the West can create policy themes and communicate them to the population of the PRC. My references you cite are made in this respect and should not be taken literally, thanks.

However, translation to Chinese is necessary to communicate any message to the mainland Chinese. No one is discussing the real life question of how many mainland Chinese are competent in English or in any foreign language that uses the Roman (Latin) alphabet? Maybe 1% (one percent)? Precious few on the mainland can read the NYT or the FT, WSJ, FP etc etc. Everything has to be translated to them and then actually communicated to them. Who does this, at what expense and how?

Few online Western public affairs sites offer Chinese translations of even their major articles. How can the mainland Chinese actively access or receive any information or coherent policy themes when they can't read a Grade 5 English textbook? Certainly Beijing isn't going to translate FREETRADER from FP or anyone else from anywhere for its population to be able to read and consider.

Then we face the matter breaching the ever intensifying firewall, as I discuss above.

 

JOSHUAXANADU

5:04 AM ET

November 11, 2010

PUBLICUS/Falun Gong/Epoch Times

Nothing against the Falun Gong, and I appreciate why they are pissed at the CCP, but they is some wacked-out people. Really.

 

JOSHUAXANADU

5:23 AM ET

November 11, 2010

@XTIANGODLOKI

I have to disagree with those who try to draw direct parallels between organizations like VOA and the Chinese propaganda outlets like Xinhua. That's the type of college-radical simplicity that discredits what otherwise was a valid larger point, like Bush = Hitler or something.

The VOA is one very minor source of information in the English world, whereas among the mainstream media the CCP dominates all info. I'm not discounting that there are a lot of brave investigative journalists and regional papers in China... but comparing the level of control, the VOA doesn't justify the Chinese propaganda sources.

 

PUBLICUS

8:19 AM ET

November 11, 2010

JOSHXANADU

I've always liked the line from Ogden Nash, to "beware the man whose god is in the skies." To which I would add whose god is anywhere we can't see him/her.

Richard Dawkins has some good statements about the god delusion - in fact, more than a few excellent statements.

 

PUBLICUS

8:19 AM ET

November 11, 2010

JOSHXANADU

I've always liked the line from Ogden Nash, to "beware the man whose god is in the skies." To which I would add whose god is anywhere we can't see him/her.

Richard Dawkins has some good statements about the god delusion - in fact, more than a few excellent statements.

 

XTIANGODLOKI

11:08 AM ET

November 11, 2010

Examples plz?

"And they get censored. Their posts quickly disappear. Indeed, in the most developing provinces anyone who posts to a discussion board is required by law to also post his/her national ID number with each and every post. Serious and effective discussion is just not allowed. In fact it is PROHIBITED."

Are you sure you are not talking about S.Korea? In SK there is a law there which forces people to use their national ID to post stuff on the forums. I was never asked to enter a national ID number (I don't have one) to post on Tianya, China's most popular discussion forum. The forums covers all range of topics but the discussions often involve people complaining about the government not doing enough to help people buy houses. Some of them run over ten thousand posts on a single topic and eventually becomes national news. That's when the government gets embarrassed and officials get fired.

China does practice serious censorship and many posts do get deleted. But you are deluding yourself if you think there are no serious discussions going on these forums.

PUBLICUS you also didn't answer my second point. Why do you feel that the Chinese are indoctrinated to be anti-American? Your earlier writing suggests that anti-US sentiment is a lot stronger in China than Sinophobia in the US. This apparently is a popular opinion and I would like to understand the factual components of this opinion. Boycotts of Japanese goods is popular in China but I have never heard anyone wanting to boycott the US or are even against the importing US culture. If there is anything which people don't like in general it would be for foreign entities telling them how to run their lives, so I can see Chinese challenging or reject the notion when Western expats try to convince the Chinese that a concept like Democracy will solve all of their problems, but that hardly equates to anti-Americanism.

 

XTIANGODLOKI

11:14 AM ET

November 11, 2010

Yes

"have to disagree with those who try to draw direct parallels between organizations like VOA and the Chinese propaganda outlets like Xinhua. "

Point taken. From an impact point of view I definitely agree. Xinhua influences far more people and is a direct propaganda machine straight from the government.

 

PUBLICUS

12:44 PM ET

November 11, 2010

@XTIANGODLOKI II or is it III?

I'm certain I'm not taking about S Korea where I recently lived and worked and which is a democracy, and which as I write is hosting the G-20 meeting.

I am certain I'm speaking of the increasing number of the PRC most developing provinces (not yet every single one) which only in the current year have issued diktats (PRC laws) requiring mainland posters to provide their national ID to posts made at certain discussion boards.

While I lived and worked until very recently in the PRC, I knew many Chinese who object to the status quo and who made posts to internet discussion boards (and continue to do so) but, when they question the honesty of the government, its dictatorial powers, the massive and pervasive corruption etc that are the root of the PRC's self liming existence, find their posts deleted almost as quickly as they are posted - in short, censored.

You obviously do not fall into this category, as it's more than reasonable to recognize you don't advocate the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate BothLiu Xiaobo views in the PRC. Quite to the contrary. I mean, here you are at FP defending the dictators in Beijing.

The grudge mentality of the PRChinese is induced hypnotically on the population from Beijing. The history of the past 200 years especially, i.e., of China's being dissembled by the Western powers and Japan, is taught in the schools of the PRC to include having the self-disciplined patience quietly to bide their time until the present incarnation of the arrogant and smug, self-satisfied Chinese who suffered over the past 200 years can reclaim/reassert their position as the Middle Kingdom aka the central country.

Present PRC university majors and graduates in International Economics and Trade (IET) are the most militant super Chinese who make US super patriots look lame and as mild milquetoast wimps. Even as the militant IET students and recent graduates salivate over their delusion of minimizing the US through trade, these fiercely uncompromising super Chinese IET majors/graduates crave US soft power. Several approached me at the university where I taught in the (rapidly developing) South of the PRC to assist them to buy an Iphone4 from the United States for the prestige of having an Iphone4 from the US.

The PRC in contrast hasn't any soft power. The PRC is as culturally barren as is the CCP that rules it.

 

FREETRADER

5:58 AM ET

November 12, 2010

Xitian...

I don't think there is any reason to try to address every silly comment you make in your losing battle with Publicus, but this one is another classic:

"PUBLICUS you also didn't answer my second point. Why do you feel that the Chinese are indoctrinated to be anti-American?"

I assume you are Chinese, given your name, your opinions, and your stilted English syntax. You must know, then, that Chinese students are still forced to read Marx, and worse, Lenin, who talks about the importance of liquidating the capitalist classes and need to destroy the Western Democracies? After all, YOU had to read them also. Are you so ignorant a Western society that you don't realize that you were indoctrinated? Do you really think that the govenment is not presented a slanted view of the world?

You need to get out of Beijing, buddy.

 

PUBLICUS

2:43 PM ET

November 29, 2010

JOSHUAXANADU

Agreed, the Falun Gong are definitely gongers. But so are the Christians, Jews and Muslims, not to mention the Hindus, Buddhists and the whole gang of 'em who claim they have the one and only universal Truth.

As the US poet Ogden Nash wrote long ago, "Beware the man whose god is in the skies." In the modern globalized world, we need to beware anyone who has a god and participates in the god delusion, as Richard Dawkins well terms it.

However, the absurdity of religion does not necessarily justify the persecution of it because persecution of religion is no better than the promotion of it. In fact, persecution per se is far worse than advocacy per se.

 

PUBLICUS

11:33 AM ET

November 10, 2010

FREETRADER

As another who lived and worked in the PRC (I until very recently) recognize much in your posts about the PRC. You are quite on the mark.

 

FLOATINGPOINT

2:15 AM ET

November 11, 2010

I am pessimistic about mutual understanding

Even if a westerner spent some time in China, he/she could mostly likely get the wrong impressions. Very often they will be mislead and confused by their informants either because the Chinese "face" problem or their deceptive tactics. I would say FREETRADER knows very little of how most Chinese think in their hearts, judging from his/her comments.

 

JOSHUAXANADU

4:58 AM ET

November 11, 2010

@FloatingPoint

Exactly my sentiments. Folks like FreeTrader claim expertise from a ridiculously limited and, frankly, antagonistic view of the Chinese common man. Unfortunately, folks like FreeTrader are in high demand for their "expertise" by the old boys network of so-called China hands in the East Coast.

 

FREETRADER

6:14 AM ET

November 12, 2010

Yes, sure...

I am completely sure that is the problem. I just have a bad 'impression' of China. I'm sure that's all it is.

The sad thing about this discussion is that I am very pro-China. It is pathetic that, in any forum like this where China is discussed realistically and not as some heaven on earth paradise that it destined for endless greatness with its brilliant leaders seflessly guiding the helm of the state on behalf of the great Han people, the "how dare you malign China" idiots, with their stilted English syntax and obvious political agenda, join the fore.

I am an American, and am free to criticize my country all I want, and I will do the same with China. Until the Chinese get comfortable doing the same thing (and not just railing against corrupt officials on the internet) China is going to remain politically retarded.

If you are Chinese, I suggest you go to Taipei some time. There you have a free, properous, and democratic society. It is no wonder they are 15 times richer, and infinitely more happy than the mainlanders, and whatever their political beliefs, will no longer consent to being told what to think by any fool who calls himself a Great Helmsman.

 

FLOATINGPOINT

1:05 AM ET

November 15, 2010

> I suggest you go to Taipei

> I suggest you go to Taipei some time.
Done that. I would call them happy people though.

 

JOSHUAXANADU

5:01 AM ET

November 11, 2010

Excellent Article -- Information on How to Better Change China

The author of this article raises some very constructive points, and I'm not surprised its written by Chinese American, who tend (with exceptions, of course) to make a more successful effort to understand the core cultural and political issues in China. Yes, I'm making a Sonya Sotomeyer moment, at least on this issue. Got a problem with that?

I appreciate that the author does not shy away from criticizing the Chinese government's many faults, but he boldly attempts to translate a more accurate picture to help inform American (and Western) policy to affect positive liberal democratic changes. THAT'S RIGHT, reread my last sentence. I can be critical of anti-China critics AND of the Chinese government. It's called complexity, and I guess I was born with it.

Folks like myself (and the author) deplore the current ruling authoritarianism, but we also understand why the CCP has been so successful in staying in power and maintaining generally popular support. Unlike too many in the China-watcher school, we refuse to believe that the Chinese public are simply propaganda-misled sheep (a common Western trope of the automaton Asiatic cultures), because we talk to our friends, our relatives, and see everyday the rich diversity and originality in the Chinese people. To me, the author is simply taking a page out of the Art of War -- to defeat your enemy, you have to really understand it.

So call me what you will -- 50-cent shill, Xinhua mouthpiece, traitor -- just because I don't echo the pablum of typical anti-China ravings. It's almost as if there's an insecurity of all these supposed "China experts" (99 percent white men) are afraid of a little self-reflection of their own biases.

 

JOSHUAXANADU

5:33 AM ET

November 11, 2010

Bureaucratic Politics and Chinese Propaganda

I wish to see the author and other continue their analyses of Chinese media and propaganda through a use of Graham Allison's Bureaucratic Politics model of IR theory.

Much of the problem with China's ever-widening attempts at information/media control is simply the size of the bureaucracies in the SARFT, GAPP and Ministry of Culture. When you give hundreds of thousands of bureaucratics and civil servant with one job, it's only natural they expand their efforts at media control.

Hence in China a widening net is cast over things as disparate as the Snail House soap opera, Internet memos, viral videos, or even the Super Girl show.

Perhaps a graduate student can produce a chart of some sort showing the correlations between organizational size and the level of media-control edicts issued. Ah, but that would require an intimate knowledge of Chinese and avid attention to the Chinese blogosphere. Xiao Qiang, don't you have the manpower?

 

PUBLICUS

1:41 PM ET

November 11, 2010

Graham Allison

With all of the profound and extensive works of Graham Allison in respect to nuclear arms, weapons and terrorist wet dreams - which for sure eventually could be realized by one or more terrorist groups - I'm surprised you'd ask for, welcome or settle for a grad student's take on the war plan of the elitist dictators in Beijing.

Allison in his prolific and extensive works at Harvard already provides a clear and lucid analysis of such statements as those of the PRC Gen Chi Hotian that "war is the midwife of the Chinese century." Gen Chi organized the PRC/CCP military massacre in Tianamen in 1989. The guy is ruthless and he has plenty of company in Beijing.

You think or believe some grad student somewhere can shed new light or surpass all of the above. Get real.

That's the first and foremost matter before the PRC/CCP in the contemporary world - to get real. Impossible for them to do, I'm afraid.

Those among us who have spent significant time in the PRC know this readily and know it well. No one should attempt to belittle or dismiss this because it only reveals the nature of the Chinese over the past 5000 years, i.e., to be inborn, inbred, ingrown, ignorant and therefore impossible to connect with or to move because of their willful failure to connect to the modern and future world.

 

JOSHUAXANADU

5:32 AM ET

November 12, 2010

@PUBLICUS and the 5000-Year-Old Inbred Chinese

How easily Publicus illustrates my point about the arrogance of a few Mandarin-speaking expats pretending authority on China matters. I hope y'all reread his statement:

"Those among us who have spent significant time in the PRC know this readily and know it well. No one should attempt to belittle or dismiss this because it only reveals the nature of the Chinese over the past 5000 years, i.e., to be inborn, inbred, ingrown, ignorant and therefore impossible to connect with or to move because of their willful failure to connect to the modern and future world."

I'll say it again. The audacity of arrogance is sickening.

 

FREETRADER

6:34 AM ET

November 12, 2010

Publicus is harsh but he is fundamentally correct...

Chinese history is littered with disasters and mistakes that were fundmentally brought about by China's assumption that, as the Middle Kingdom between the Barbarians, it was already perfect and did not need to change anything. From the Qing Emperor's high-handed response to Lord MacCartney ("...we have no need of your ingenious devices...") to Hu Juntao's presumtion that because of the financial crisis, China has nothing to learn from the West, the Chinese tendency to turn inward and behave as either a bully or a victim, with no middle ground, seems destined to keep China isolated and poor for the rest of history.

In response to Commodore Perry's Black Fleet, Japan trained a whole generation of engineers in English and Western Science, and within fifty years had built a modern industrial society. China's response to the Opium Wars was to look even more inward and search for simple political solutions to their country's problems, in an increasingly desperate attempt to keep the foreigner influence out.

China is now run by a government that, after 30 years of economic mismangement and mass murder/starvation, has had 30 years of reasonably good economic growth. That government is now celebrating the 'global dominance' of the 'China Century' because China's overall GDP is now equal to that of Japan's, a country less than one-tenth the size of China and with virtually no natural resources. Hmm. Which country would you rather be? China's response, of course, to the unwillingness of Japan to genuflect is to create a couple of completely pointless international incidents, making it very clear to every other nation in Asia that China is not to be trusted with even the (not so great) power it now brandishes.

So, while I hope these trends change it is a truth universally aknowledged that the more confident China feels, the less successful they are ultimately likely to be.

 

PUBLICUS

2:28 PM ET

November 12, 2010

A little less self rightousness thanks, JOSHUAXANADU

My statements about China are indeed harsh because they are, in significant part, the direct reaction to statements the 5000 year old super Chinese element of the PRC population said to me concerning the United States. The contemporary super Chinese element of the PRC are not the only ones to make derogatory statements against the US devil barbarians.

Here's a selected sampling of some criticisms of the people of the US and of the USA itself.

"The 100% American is 99% an idiot." --George Bernard Shaw.

"A single nation that has succeeded in lowering the intelligence, the morality, the quality of the human race almost throughout the globe is a phenomenon never before experienced since the beginning of time. I accuse the United States of being in a constant state of crime against humanity." -- Henry de Montherlant.

"America is the only nation in history which has gone miraculously directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization." -- Georges Clemenceau

And I'd throw in one more quote to boot:

"One of the delightful things about Americans is that they have absolutely no historical memory." -- Chou En-Lai.

I think a number of us would concede that, given the crowd he was a part of, Chou En Lai was something of a class act, but then again, he did look a lot better largely because of the company he kept and because some leaders are like whores and old buildings, i.e., they gain respectability with time. Chou also famously responded to a reporter's question concerning what he thought of the French Revolution by saying, "It's too early to tell." Chou indeed was as slow as his ancestors were and as are the present PRC Chinese.

JOSHUAXANADU, given that you allow matters to get under your skin, you might want to adopt a COMMENTS diet that thickens it. Perhaps then you might be able to reduce your sense of indignance, not to mention getting beside yourself.

BTW, where's China's Rousseau? Where's China's Chomsky? Adam Smith?

Nevermind.

 

PUBLICUS

4:37 PM ET

November 12, 2010

Back on point

To some, my stating this will be a shocker, but the fact is there are discussion boards in the PRC that the censors rarely interfere with. The CIA 30,000 estimated full time censors in the PRC leave certain privately owned and operated discussion boards (DBs) to themselves, untouched by their otherwise heavy hand.

Principally, the deliberately privileged DBs are Tencent , Sina, Phoenix and Wang Yi. Tencent (aka QQ) is based in spectacularly developing Shenzhen, abutting Hong Kong. Sina is headed by a Chinese but is 70% the property of investors in Japan. Phoenix, also a TV broadcast outlet, is based in Hong Kong and its internet DB extends throughout the mainland. Wang Yi I know less of but is equal to its competitors in freedom of discussion.

These virtually free of censorship DBs are of course the most revealing DBs in the PRC. Virtually nothing gets censored. These DBs currently are revealing an unprecedented fury against the mismanagement of the economy by the CCP and against the CCP itself. So why in the censoring PRC do such discussion boards freely exist?

The CCP boyz in Beijing and in the provincial capitals need to know what the people of the People's Republic are saying, what it is they think, what are their concerns, what it is they have problems seeking and aspiring to. The corrupt high and mighty CCP officials in government certainly don't talk with the People themselves, despite what the textbooks say.

Further, if these discussion boards were censored or closed, the CCP correctly fears the only other means of expression would be to take to the streets, which is the horror the boyz in Beijing fear most. The generations of the 80s and 90s dominate the DBs.

What do they say?

Their message is clear. The CCP has to go. The message is stated directly, clearly, unequivocally.

Indeed while the big global banks and investment corporations of the West dismiss the present leaping inflation in the PRC, the Chinese people themselves are staggering under it. The education system needs reform ( to identify but one chronic deficiency, they diabolically test you to find out what you don't know instead of finding out what you do know). Many of the youngest Chinese want to join the world of prosperous, progressive, responsive and responsible democratic nations.

I think the recent record shows the big global banks and investment guhrus have a less than stellar track record. Their greedy and self interested short term thinking and forecasts are inconsistent with the expressions of the Chinese people at these discussion boards. I mean, when my (still and forever) friends and also former colleagues in the PRC both post at these particular DBs and also email to me, that last week they could buy a dozen eggs but that this week they could buy only a half dozen, due to inflation, I being to think of the historical precedents.

One can buy a residential property in NYC in a couple of years in contrast to the the decade or more it takes if one is middle class in the PRC, longer if one is lower middle class. The speculative property bubble in the PRC has many new residential apartment buildings (a single family dwelling in developing China is a virtual impossibility) looking like the ghost town of Pyongyang, i.e., vacant, the owner developers waiting for prices to rise even further beyond the reach of the average middle class Chinese, and the middle class knows it.

The thousands year old self consignment of the Chinese people themselves is always, every day, to struggle to keep their heads above the eternal sea - simply to survive. This is simultaneously a poetic and realistic self statement by the Chinese themselves from long long ago. For a while things in the PRC looked good. Presently however, the sea is rising. Instead of it lifting all boats, many boats are being overwhelmed by it, sinking like the proverbial stone.

This is not joyous news. Chaos in the PRC, which in the 'teens' decade is inevitable, very likely will result in the demise of the CCP in favor of the direct rule of the military, which not a cheerful prospect to the Chinese people or to anyone else.

 

FREETRADER

11:25 PM ET

November 13, 2010

You may be correct...

Just anecdotally, I was reading the South China Morning Post yesterday and the focus was on inflation in the PRC. The article quoted a retired grandmother who used to eat an apple a day, but now the price of an apple is about RMB 6 (almost USD $1) she can no longer afford the luxury.

Perhaps not reflective of anything, but it seems plausible that the fanatical economy pumping engaged in by the PBOC is simply creating massive, hidden inflation that is hitting the most vulnurable in society. Besides the pathos of some grandmother denied one of her few luxuries, you have a generation for whom a middle-class life (wife, flat, maybe a car, and a kid) is a dream rapidly vanishing in the distance.

I don't know where it will all end, but it can't be good.

 

ACKERLEY111

11:14 AM ET

November 15, 2010

Back on point

Chaos in tatil the PRC, klip izle which in the 'teens' decade is inevitable, very likely will result in the demise of the CCP in favor of the direct rule of the military, which not a filmcin cheerful prospect to the Chinese people or to anyone gazeteler else