Susan Glasser: What is the big idea, as far as you see it, for Brazil's role in the world? Some people have argued that Brazil is a negotiating power, or a symbol of the emerging world order. What is your view?
Celso Amorim: I would say, of course it's a negotiating power. But it would be very simplistic to think Brazil always looks for consensus for consensus's sake. We also have a view of how things should be, and we tend to work in that direction. We struggle to have a world that is more democratic, that is to say, more countries are heard on the world scene -- a world in which economic relations are more balanced and of course in which countries in different areas can talk to each other without prejudice. And that's what we try to do in our foreign policy.
But of course Brazil is also a big country with a big economy, a multitude of cultures, and in a way similar to the United States -- but also in some ways different because the way people got here and the way they mixed was slightly different. So, Brazil has this unique characteristic which is very useful in international negotiations: to be able to put itself in someone else's shoes, which is essential if you are looking for a solution.
SG: What does Brazil want from the world right now, and what are you prepared to give to get it?
CA: Well, we give engagement. We give our minds, our thoughts. This costs quite a lot. I could be using -- President Lula, myself, and all others could be using our brains for other purposes, political or economic or whatever.
Brazil still has many problems. Inequality is still very big. It diminished a lot during President Lula's government, but it's still very big. So there is a long way to go. We know our shortcomings. If you look around, you'll see more women ambassadors and so on; you'll see some black people; but there is still a long way to go. But in any case, we have also this capacity to discuss and to have dialogue which was helpful in our own evolution and has helped in our relations with South America, and I think can help with the world at large.
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I'll give you an example. One time, when I was ambassador to the U.N., they were looking for someone to take care of the sanctions committee on the former Yugoslavia. I received a call from the president of the Security Council. I was on a 10-day vacation -- a very rare thing -- in Greece somewhere, and he said, "No, no, it has to be you, Celso. It has to be Brazil because Brazil is the only one that both the Americans and the Russians will accept." Because the others either were seen as very partial or, let us face it, too weak to be able to stand the different pressures.
SG: You make a great case for Brazil as a sort of global negotiator with hopes for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council. But to what extent is that a strategy for your country, or is it really a tactic?
CA: Well, having a seat at the table is a means to have your voice heard and to have your ideas heard -- because we believe in them. In the same way that you believe in the American Dream, we believe in the Brazilian Dream and also how the Brazilian example can be useful for others. And maybe because we came after we can do that maybe with some more humility, which helps. We'll never have the military power that gets near to that of -- not even to speak of the United States -- but Russia or China. We'll have to have some military power because that is essential for any state as long as the nation-state exists. But we are aware that it cannot be at that level.
In the present-day world, military power will be less and less usable in a way that these other abilities -- the capacity to negotiate based on sound economic policies, based on a society that is more just than it used to be and will be more just tomorrow than it is today -- all these are things that help. I don't think there are many countries that can boast that they have 10 neighbors and haven't had a war in the last 140 years.
SG: So you're the ultimate soft-power power.
CA: There have to be some hard elements in it, as well: economic growth, as I mentioned, and we have to have some military power, some deterrent military power. Not because of the region; we don't think anything can happen, actually. [Latin America is] quickly becoming what I choose to call a "security community" in which war becomes inconceivable. But if other conflicts happen between other countries, we have to be prepared that it doesn't come to us. So some modicum of military power is necessary. It's not totally soft. People also say we have our music; I won't say our beautiful women because that would sound not very like a --
SG: Retro, not the future.
CA: Exactly.
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