MOSHE YA'ALON:
" The Palestinians remain steadfast in their refusal to accept that there even exists a Jewish nation that lays legitimate claim to its land."

REFLECTION:
"That some foreign government decides to give the Palestinian’s land to some foreign squatters doesn’t make the Palestinians the perpetrators of this travesty

I don't see any disagreement between between MOSHE YA'ALON and REFLECTION.

Let me wipe the tears from my eyes from laughing so hard. The Palestinians have no interest in peace?

Then you really haven't viewed the video of your buddy,netty, bragging about how he derailed Oslo.

The Likud Party charter flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan River and stipulates that: “The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.”

This Israeli government is committed to that charter as well as to the Jewish holy war for land in Palestine as witnessed by the illegal settler squats terrorist acts everyday.

It has no interest in trading land it covets for a peace that might thwart further territorial expansion. It considers itself unbound by the applicable UN resolutions, agreements from past peace talks, the “Roadmap,” or the premise of the “two-state solution.”

It is a matter of record that Abbas has negotiated with 18 Israeli governments all the while Israel continued it's apartheid rampage, land and resource theft, killings, and oppression all the while blaming the Palestinians.

What do you suggest, that Abbas sit down for another 18 years of negotiation while Israel continues it's apartheid rampage? That Israel, again, uses negotiations as a cover for settlement activities He has wised up to the problems of his previous approach. More power to him.

While he declines negotiations the world is now seeing that it's not the Palestinians that were the problem but the Israelis all along.

The Palestinains have demanded the 1967 borders for recognition of Israel as a jewish state and good for them. For all of Bibi's whining about Abu Mazans 'preconditions' we all knew Bibi has his and would present them as excuses for derailing the peace process.

A couple good things will come out of this. The Palestinians will eventually have to thank you, the Israelis for building them all those nice houses free of charge and of course the jews can stay and live in Palestine if they want to but they will be subject to Palestinians laws - up to and including home dispossession.

Ship all those illegal settler squats to the Negev who complain, burn land, tear down olive trees, burn mosques, run over, kill, and beat Palestinians and let them be 'pioneers' there. They deserve to wander in their own desert for the next 40 years.

You, and your other hapless israelis, act like none of us here can read, disseminate information, google, or see the reality that the Israels are no partner for peace.

Someone who invades, kills, bombs, oppression, and occupies, and then tries like hell to spin it inspite of all the facts out here, is not intersted in peace and that's Israel.

moshe, the Palestinians are not the problem, you and your government, your failed policies, your oppression of legitimite heirs to Palestine, your apartheid and ethnic cleansing, your moldavian thug of an FM, your ragtag IDF, and your systematic effort to wipe out a culture and people who were there before you is the problem.

Israel is the problem. And until you get it you will go on destroying yourself, of not demographically, then morally. Is that clear enough for an obtuse person like you to understand? Good.

If the only issue is the occupation or 'expansion and colonialism' please explain the wars and violence prior to 1967.

Please explain 1300 years of oppression in the Muslim world that was punctuated with violence against Jews, forced conversions, frequent takings of Jewish woman as wives by Arabs and Muslims, taking Jewish orphans and forcing them to be raised as Muslim along with so many other oppressive measures all culminating up to the mass expulsion of more than a million Jews, 900.000 of whom ended up in Israel. The Jewish population were clearly civilian and these populations were not in any war zone that necessitated there immediate removal.

Yeah, that's it! We'll set up an international body, and we'll all submit to its wise decisions, after we join, since we're all rule of law here.

And then when they give us the land, with strict conditions to prevent displacement, oppression and exploitation, we'll then decide we don't like rule of law any more, because we're so historically oppressed...

Even a six year old can see what's happening: victimology.

What would be appropriate for FP to publish?. I bet that any opinion that you don't agree is "garbage"

It's not garbage because I disagree with it, it's garbage because it's transparent propaganda. That should be recognized as a basic fact that has nothing to do with Israel. This is something that's (ostensibly) written by a current government minister and then published in a periodical with a primarily non-domestic readership. Meaning that it's a carefully managed attempt to influence international opinion that has little to no analytic value of its own.

It would be better, perhaps, if you stopped making assumptions about me and started asking yourself whether you apply the same critical lens to Israeli propaganda as you do to similar releases by similarly embattled states.

I see, I see. You against FP publishing anything written by a current government minister of any country.

And what Stephen Walt writes for foreign policy isnt pure propaganda? give me a break, the guy believes in a Jewish lobby so powerful that it seems as if it controls the United States.

Its just a modern day invention of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, this all powerful Jewish Lobby.

First, there isn't one Israel lobby, but at least two: AIPAC and J-Street, who have fundamentally different philosophies about the appropriate policy. Second, the strongest Israel supporters don't come from Jewish constituencies; they come from Christians--namely Evangelicals--who support Israel for biblical reasons.

The Israel lobby is hardly the most powerful--If you want to delve into asinine conspiracy theories concoct a conspiracy theory involving PHRMA or AARP--they are much more powerful than the Israel Lobby

You argue it isn't the MOST powerful lobby in order to falsely imply it isn't A powerful lobby.

This is the big lie technique. Karl Rove loves it, it works so well. Remember who used it best though? Do you really want to emulate him?

First, putting words in capital letters does not make your argument any stronger. I cannot understand why people do it.

"When they do not even acknowledge basic rights of the Palestinian people and their homeland and that occupation is evil."

I'm no fan of Mr. Ya'alon, but perhaps you missed the part where he wrote that he accepts Palestinian sovereignty on their land? Many of us are opposed to the occupation and would like it to end and find the settlements to be loathsome. However, that does not excuse the Palestinians and the wider Arab world from accepting non-Arab people's rights to self-determination in their own homelands as well. It is not just that the Jewish People's rights have been refused -- until the US invasion of Iraq, the Kurds were denied autonomy, and when they attempted to obtain it, they were met with genocide. No one in the Arab world dared to criticize Iraq. The Darfurians dare to separate themselves from an Arab polity and are too met with genocide. The Berbers, the indiginous people of North Africa have faced decades of oppression and discrimination by their Arab overlords. Copts in Egypt too face discrimination. I am surprised that someone like you would be an apologist for such racism. Not liking particular Israeli policies or politicians is not reason to excuse the racist and ethnocentric attitudes prevalent in Palestine and the Arab World.

No.

"...TV stations of Israel does not have equally opposite propaganda every evening?" The answer is a definitive no. Obviously MALICEIT has never seen Israeli TV.

Just watch Mosaic on Link TV everynight - IBN - Israeli news channel is the Fox news over there. Of course - everything is stilted in Israels favor - those misguided fools think they fool everyone when they fool no one. It's hilarious to watch.

Israeli media is balanced. you find everything from the far left Haaretz to the more righ Jerusalem Post. you also have numerous Arab media outlets. israelis also get to watch Al Jazeera and read Al Ahram. Compare that to the Arab world where there is no alternative media perspective. That has changedd a bit in recent years with satellite TV, but the major newspapers are all gov controlled. This is part of the problem Yaalon speaks of--there is only incitement to hatred of Jews in this media. Ask Bassam Eid and others Khaled Abu Toameh about intimidation of those espousing alternate views. Alternative views are gagged. Learn about the subject before you write your nonsense.

done that. No, their media is not balanced. Every country is entitled for their own Glenn Beck. Only in case of Israel he is a religious zealot.

Do you suggest that nobody should build on the disputed area?

"Do you suggest that nobody should build on the disputed area?"

No, because no matter how much Israel may "dispute" who should get sovereignty over this territory in any final status agreement, RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW the status of that territory is "Israeli-occupied territory".

That means this:
A) ALL the Palestinians are "protected persons" under international humanitarian law, and therefore they have a right to build, and the occupying power actually has an OBLIGATION to provide for their needs.
B) ALL the settlers are "citizens of the occupying power" under those very same laws, and therefore their settlement of this territory is UNCONDITIONALLY prohibited precisely because the occupying power is UNCONDITIONALLY prohibited from settling its own citizens in territory that is under its belligerent occupation.

Or, more simply: the answer is "no", because the two groups possess different legal rights.

When is France going to stop build illegal settlements on German land ?

Everwhere that France builds is in the sovereign territory of France, and the fact that some of that territory MAY ONCE HAVE BEEN the sovereign territory of Germany does not make it "German land".

Look to who is the "sovereign", and that tells you wether the building is "illegal"

Israel isn't the "sovereign", and so its settlement enterprise is "illegal".

France is the "sovereign", and so its building works are "legal".

Pretty simple, really......

Everwhere that Israel builds is in the sovereign territory of Israel, and the fact that some of that territory MAY ONCE HAVE BEEN the sovereign territory of Ottoman Empire , British Empire or Jordan does not make it "Palestinian land".

"Everwhere that Israel builds is in the sovereign territory of Israel,"

Nope.

Israel can point to no treaty nor to ANY pronounciation by ANYONE that the territory upon which Israel builds these settlements is sovereign to the state of Israel.

Indeed, with the *singular* exception of east Jersalem the state of Israel can not even point to a proclaimation by..... itself..... in which it claims that the West Bank is the sovereign territory of Israel.

Compare and contrast: France can point to a treaty wherein both Germany and France agree that (e.g.) Alscale-Lorraine is French territory.

Pontificate all you want, TTTT, but it will always come down to *documentation*, and apart from a 3,000 year old "fairytale as property deed" you don't have any documentation to back up your claim.

You can point to no treaty nor to ANY pronounciation by ANYONE that the territory upon which Israel builds is sovereign to any other state.

"You can point to no treaty nor to ANY pronounciation by ANYONE that the territory upon which Israel builds is sovereign to any other state."

And that matters.... how, exactly, to ISRAEL'S (non-existent) "sovereign right" to build in the West Bank?

The issue WITH RESPECT TO ISRAEL is a simple one, and it has a simple answer:
Q: Is Israel the sovereign?
A: No, it isn't.

The moment that is accepted (and Israel does, indeed, accept that) then any discussion of who *is* the sovereign becomes a moot point WITH RESPECT TO ISRAEL....

"Is the Palestinian state going to be Muslim?" The answer is a very definitive yes. That is not contested by the PLO or Hamas who will determine the future of the proposed state.

Palestine will be officially an Arab and an Islamic state. Sharia will be the source of all law. Chapter 1 articles 3 and 4 as i recall.

Minorities and women will be accorded "equal respect" NOT EQUAL RIGHTS consistent with the Islamic Conference Cairo declaration of Human rights and Islam. In other words non Muslims are Dhimmis.

"Palestine will be officially an Arab and an Islamic state. Sharia will be the source of all law. Chapter 1 articles 3 and 4 as i recall. "

Err, dude, Chapters 1 of WHAT, exactly?

read what I wrote the Palestine constitution

"read what I wrote the Palestine constitution"

There is no "Palestine constitution", sunshine.

It doesn't yet exist except, apparently, in your head.....

It really isn't hard to look these things up you know. You're just making yourself look silly.

"It really isn't hard to look these things up you know."

The "Palestinian consititution"? That's a very hard thing to look up, seeing as how it doesn't exist.

Now, it ain't up to me to prove a negative. Soooooooooo.....

a) I say there is no "Palestinian consitution".
b) Your job is to show me one.

Hop to it, I'll wait......

The Palestinian constitution is a widely known, well publicised document. It obviously isn't the 'Constitution of Palestine,' (i.e. that of an existing state, for obvious reasons) but no one here is claiming it is. It was intended to be temporary thing until the foundation of a proper state.

I'm not sure if FP lets you post links, so just type it into google. The first thing that comes up is wikisource with a translation of it.

... always resorts to the "But! But! But! Everyone knows it's true!" argument when asked to provide some evidence....

What you are talking about are the Basic Laws of the Palestinian Authority.

Those are laws that define how the PA exercises the authority that has been delegated to it by the occupying power following the signing of the interim Oslo Accords.

In no way, shape or form are those Basic Laws a "Palestinian Constitution", nor do they pretend to be. They are what they are i.e. the laws that define the extent of the authority of what is, after all, an INTERIM authority.

"the real problem is jews believing that they truly have a right to these lands because of a 3000 year old fairytalebook"

I would agree with you...if that were true. Most Jews are secular, most Israelis are secular, and the first leaders of the Zionist movement, and every Israeli PM except perhaps Begin were secular -- many were Atheists. So no, its not about a book of fairytales that gives the Jews any rights to that land, nor would most Jews and/or Israelis claim such a preposterous thing.

The Bible is mostly fiction, but it is not a fiction that Jews originated and lived in that land, established a civilization and language, always maintained some presence there, despite numerous persacutions -- and not only by the Romans, but by the Arabs as well. The right was further established under International Law, the League of Nations, and the United Nations. If Israel is an 'artificial' state, so is every state that arose from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Religion/Superstition have nothing to do with it.

Thank you for reminding me of these authors. The reason you do not hear more about their ideas is that they have nothing to do with the lies and chicanery of material Israel; material Israel they do not have a right to take from others, any more than the Confederacy can now redistribute Richmond. They blew their chances to be God's people. Their only hope now is the hope of the rest of us. The Messiah is that hope. Merry Christmas.

can I go to Buckingham Palace and requisition it back to us celts from those evil norman monarchs?

If it isn't, then the UN should rule, since Israel recognizes the UN (when convenient).

I get the impression that Zionist Israelis really truly believe the world of the internet is the same world as before, when there were no other sources of information than gossip.

We can decide. The best solution is one state, with a constitution of tolerance, like the USA. Right now, it's a religious state, with the usual obnoxious oppression of the minority. And this should apply worldwide. Theocracy is a bad way to govern.

Children should be freed from religious educational oppression but that's an ideal far from completion.

"Fatah,"

Is a political party. It is not the recognized representative of the Palestinian people.

That title is held by the PLO, so what **you** have to do is to point to something in the PLO charter that says what you want them to say.

"which leads the PA,"

The Palestine Authority is a regional authority i.e. the body to which the IDF has delegated some of its authority as the occupying power. In that regard it is no more the recognized representative of the Palestinian people than is "Fatah".

"officially declared during its three-day conference only 2 and a half weeks ago"

Big whoopie.

Shall we also look at the Likud charter while we are at it?

After all, Likud is the direct equivalent to Fatah, except that Likud happens to be in charge of the current government in Israel, whereas Fatah does not form the "PA Govt" of Fayyad.

Or why not look at what Shas has to say on these subjects, or look at the party platform of Lieberman's Little Shop of Horrors?

Toe-curling stuff from each of THOSE parties, yet you mention not a one of them.

How Odd.

...as if PLO and Fatah are somehow divisible when one controls the other. For your edification, not that it will change your mind about anything, here is the PLO Covenant, which still upholds the "liquidation of the Zionist presence!" The text is the English version published officially by the PLO, unabridged and unedited. Note, however, that the PLO's translation sometimes deviates from the original Arabic so as to be more palatable to Western readers. For example, in Article 15, the Arabic is translated as "the elimination of Zionism," whereas the correct translation is "the liquidation of the Zionist presence." "The Zionist presence" is a common Arabic euphemism for the State of Israel, so this clause in fact calls for the destruction of Israel, not just the end of Zionism.

Where subtleties in the original Arabic are important, the Arabic word has been inserted in parentheses.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL CHARTER:
Resolutions of the Palestine National Council, July 1-17, 1968
Text of the Charter:
Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.

Article 4: The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.

Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

Article 7: That there is a Palestinian community and that it has material, spiritual, and historical connection with Palestine are indisputable facts. It is a national duty to bring up individual Palestinians in an Arab revolutionary manner. All means of information and education must be adopted in order to acquaint the Palestinian with his country in the most profound manner, both spiritual and material, that is possible. He must be prepared for the armed struggle and ready to sacrifice his wealth and his life in order to win back his homeland and bring about its liberation.

Article 8: The phase in their history, through which the Palestinian people are now living, is that of national (watani) struggle for the liberation of Palestine. Thus the conflicts among the Palestinian national forces are secondary, and should be ended for the sake of the basic conflict that exists between the forces of Zionism and of imperialism on the one hand, and the Palestinian Arab people on the other. On this basis the Palestinian masses, regardless of whether they are residing in the national homeland or in diaspora (mahajir) constitute - both their organizations and the individuals - one national front working for the retrieval of Palestine and its liberation through armed struggle.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. Thus it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.

Article 11: The Palestinians will have three mottoes: national (wataniyya) unity, national (qawmiyya) mobilization, and liberation.

Article 12: The Palestinian people believe in Arab unity. In order to contribute their share toward the attainment of that objective, however, they must, at the present stage of their struggle, safeguard their Palestinian identity and develop their consciousness of that identity, and oppose any plan that may dissolve or impair it.

Article 13: Arab unity and the liberation of Palestine are two complementary objectives, the attainment of either of which facilitates the attainment of the other. Thus, Arab unity leads to the liberation of Palestine, the liberation of Palestine leads to Arab unity; and work toward the realization of one objective proceeds side by side with work toward the realization of the other.

Article 14: The destiny of the Arab nation, and indeed Arab existence itself, depend upon the destiny of the Palestine cause. From this interdependence springs the Arab nation's pursuit of, and striving for, the liberation of Palestine. The people of Palestine play the role of the vanguard in the realization of this sacred (qawmi) goal.

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

Article 16: The liberation of Palestine, from a spiritual point of view, will provide the Holy Land with an atmosphere of safety and tranquility, which in turn will safeguard the country's religious sanctuaries and guarantee freedom of worship and of visit to all, without discrimination of race, color, language, or religion. Accordingly, the people of Palestine look to all spiritual forces in the world for support.

Article 17: The liberation of Palestine, from a human point of view, will restore to the Palestinian individual his dignity, pride, and freedom. Accordingly the Palestinian Arab people look forward to the support of all those who believe in the dignity of man and his freedom in the world.

Article 18: The liberation of Palestine, from an international point of view, is a defensive action necessitated by the demands of self-defense. Accordingly the Palestinian people, desirous as they are of the friendship of all people, look to freedom-loving, and peace-loving states for support in order to restore their legitimate rights in Palestine, to re-establish peace and security in the country, and to enable its people to exercise national sovereignty and freedom.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.

Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland.

Article 23: The demand of security and peace, as well as the demand of right and justice, require all states to consider Zionism an illegitimate movement, to outlaw its existence, and to ban its operations, in order that friendly relations among peoples may be preserved, and the loyalty of citizens to their respective homelands safeguarded.

Article 24: The Palestinian people believe in the principles of justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity, and in the right of all peoples to exercise them.

Article 25: For the realization of the goals of this Charter and its principles, the Palestine Liberation Organization will perform its role in the liberation of Palestine in accordance with the Constitution of this Organization.

Article 26: The Palestine Liberation Organization, representative of the Palestinian revolutionary forces, is responsible for the Palestinian Arab people's movement in its struggle - to retrieve its homeland, liberate and return to it and exercise the right to self-determination in it - in all military, political, and financial fields and also for whatever may be required by the Palestine case on the inter-Arab and international levels.

Article 27: The Palestine Liberation Organization shall cooperate with all Arab states, each according to its potentialities; and will adopt a neutral policy among them in the light of the requirements of the war of liberation; and on this basis it shall not interfere in the internal affairs of any Arab state.

Article 28: The Palestinian Arab people assert the genuineness and independence of their national (wataniyya) revolution and reject all forms of intervention, trusteeship, and subordination.

Article 29: The Palestinian people possess the fundamental and genuine legal right to liberate and retrieve their homeland. The Palestinian people determine their attitude toward all states and forces on the basis of the stands they adopt vis-a-vis to the Palestinian revolution to fulfill the aims of the Palestinian people.

Article 30: Fighters and carriers of arms in the war of liberation are the nucleus of the popular army which will be the protective force for the gains of the Palestinian Arab people.

Article 31: The Organization shall have a flag, an oath of allegiance, and an anthem. All this shall be decided upon in accordance with a special regulation.

Article 32: Regulations, which shall be known as the Constitution of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, shall be annexed to this Charter. It will lay down the manner in which the Organization, and its organs and institutions, shall be constituted; the respective competence of each; and the requirements of its obligation under the Charter.

Article 33: This Charter shall not be amended save by [vote of] a majority of two-thirds of the total membership of the National Congress of the Palestine Liberation Organization [taken] at a special session convened for that purpose.

"...as if PLO and Fatah are somehow divisible when one controls the other."

And Likud also "controls" the government of Israel, yet one can not take the Likud Charter and say that this has precedence over the Basic Laws of Israel, or that the Likud Charter is Netanyahu's Get Out Of Jail card when it comes to written undertakings and treaty obligations freely entered into by the State of Israel.

"For your edification, not that it will change your mind about anything, here is the PLO Covenant, which still upholds the "liquidation of the Zionist presence!" "

No, actually, it doesn't "still uphold" that.

All the articles of the PLO Covenant that you so tediously quote have all been annulled, and Israel has agreed since 1998 that they have all been annulled.

Didn't Netanyahu tell you?

If you really want to get the news straight from the Horse's Mouth:
"Israeli Reactions to the PNC Vote in Gaza
December 14, 1998
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU:
(Communicated by Prime Minister's Media Advisor)"

"Prime Minister Netanyahu expressed his satisfaction at the result of the PNC vote today, achieved as a result of the firm stance taken by the Government of Israel on the issue of the vote to revoke those clauses in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of the State of Israel."

But, hey!, what would he know? He was just the Prime Minister, when everyone knows that the Israeli defense establishment really runs Israel.

So let's ignore the Prime Minister and hear what the Israeli Defense Minister of 1998 had to say......
"DEFENSE MINISTER MORDECHAI:
(Communited by Defense Minister's Media Advisor)
Defense Minister Yitzhak Mordechai, said today (Monday) 14.12.98, welcomed the process of the ratification of Yasser Arafat's letter to President Clinton in Gaza today."

"The Defense Minister said that the clear support of those PNC members present and the representatives of the other senior Palestinian institutions in the ratification of Arafat's letter to Clinton, with the cancellation of those clauses in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel represents an important and crucial step in the carrying out of basic Palestinian commitments undertaken in agreements in Israel and particularly the Wye Agreement."

Oh, dear, so Israel AGREES that the annullment of those articles of the Covenant have been ratified and, therefore, they have been properly cancelled.

Well, gosh, there goes YOUR argument.........

Epic answer on the charter point. I didn't even think that it needs much research to know the truth. A quick Google search will take one to the PNC page on WikiPedia, where everything is noted.

Next shill's point: Israel is the "only democracy" in the Middle East and therefore you cannot criticize it.

I actually come to FP site to read your comments, man, not because of whatever nonsense they sometimes publish :-)

"You cite Shariah/a possible muslim theocratic Palestinian state as a negative"

No, actually, he hasn't.

He has pontificated upon it, and done so without providing the slightest proof to confirm his allegations.

Aesan are just being obtuse to be argumentative? Google the facts before you write a long rambling screed based on so many false premises.

Palestinian constitution Chapter 1 articles 3 and 4, are in the Palestinians words not mine evidence of their ambition that Palestine is an Islamic state. 4 weeks ago a Palestinian was arrested in the West bank not Gaza and is facing life in prison for apostasy for his facebook denunciations of Islam.

Israel is not a theocracy, god ruled, or an ecclesiocracy, clergy rule, is what I think you meant? Israel is founded on civil law and has Basic Law that as a practical matter equates to a constitution. All people(s) and gender are equal under the law.

You asked me "Why is a Muslim state worse than a Jewish one?" I didn't really venture an opinion. I was just correcting someone. I am just pointing out that Palestinian definition of their state. But for the record I am a Liberal and Islam as practised by the state is completely incompatible with democracy or human rights.

First of all there is no Palestinian constitution. There is a basic law which will exist only temporarily until the establishment of a Palestinian state. "The enactment of this temporary Basic Law for a transitional and interim period constitutes a fundamental step towards the realization of the firm national and historical rights of the Arab Palestinian people."

Second article three only establishes jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, not a particularly controversial statement. "Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine"

Last and by no means least. Article 4 does not in any way limit the freedoms of other religions. It does establish Palestine as an Islamic state, no different than any other in the region. "Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained."

Read the thing next time you quote it.

I was correcting TTTT who wrote "Is the Palestinian state going to be Muslim? No. Its going to be Palestinian,"

I didn't quote the constitution as it's referred to by Palestinians themselves. I paraphrased it and said the relevant parts could be found in articles 3 and 4 "... as I recall."
"...as I recall." is my way of saying I am to lazy to google it but if not 3 or 4 it will be something adjacent.

My point was Palestine will be an Islamic state which you confirm and that others will be accorded 'respect' not equal rights which you also confirm. So what is your point?

I was correcting TTTT who wrote "Is the Palestinian state going to be Muslim? No. Its going to be Palestinian,"

There is every chance it will be both, they are not exclusive. The UK is both British and Anglican and happening to have a state religion does not make us any more extremist than others in Western Europe.

You people are absolutely fallen; you are obsessed of this monomaniacal image of yourself ruling over something. This is not what you were supposed to be awaiting.
All was contingent upon the acceptance of the Messiah. All who do accept the Messiah belong to spiritual Israel.

Pre-assumptions and playing with words and Quran and other holy books is no more accepted by todays world with revolution of information.
Even taking what this dear reader is claiming is written in Quran is only about promised land nothing to suggest that land is Palestine may be that land is some where in Europe where dear Jews received most austerity in their history?????????????

Damn Klingons -

My Romulan bible already decreed that I, Base, am the ruler of the universe. As such I am chosen by the God of Romulus that all that I want I can take. Mine. MINE. Moahhhhhhhhhhh!

Of course I wrote it...but never mind that fact...

You obviously haven't been keeping up with the news.

A few weeks ago she said:
"Congress, the White House and Hollywood, Wall Street are owned by Zionists. No question, in my opinion."

I don't want to get into an argument over Congress and the White House, but Wall Street and Hollywood seriously?

"For some reason also, Dennis Ross arrived in Israel today"

I don't think there is a single person on Earth who can't see Ross' fingerprints all over that "incentive package" that was offered to Netanyahu by Hillary.

It is picture-perfect Ross-logic to posit that
(a) if only the bribe to Israel is BIG ENOUGH then
(b) the Israelis will feel comfortable, and getting Israel feeling all comfy is
(c) the only way America can get Israel to do what the USA pretty-please asks them to do....

Hilary offered that gigantic bribe to Netanyahu based upon that "logic", and the Israelis then insulted the Americans by refusing to accept that bribe.

Excuse me, but why wasn't Dennis Ross then immediately sent off with a one-way ticket to Siberia as punishment for such monumentally bad advice?

The man is a disaster - an absolute, guaranteed, bet-your-house-on-it, disaster for US foreign policy - and the fact that the man has the chutzpah to CONTINUE to shoulder his way into Middle East policy even while the wreckage of his last Very Bright Idea is still crashing down to earth is utterly breathtaking.

Ain't it so. Not one person in a thousand knows and you won't find the story in your textbooks.

When they start bringing up the "USS Liberty", I know that I am dealing with pure Jew Haters and that there is no point in debating them or arguing with them.

Why was there no defined borders? Oh thats right, because the Arabs refused a state of Israel and called for its destruction and bought war one day after its creation. There could have been borders if there was a state to border with, but unfortunately Palestine has never been a state.
Why is Gaza an open air prison? because they elected Hamas. I dont see what is so hard about that. Havent you read anything about their ideology? what they truly stand by? not only in regard to Israel but Jews all over the world. Its their fault. I did not vote for Obama and yet I am dealing with all of his problems, its part of democracy. The majority effects the minority whether you like it or not, deal with it. If they stopped wanting to be an "open air prison" they would vote them out and have a re-election.
Also what of Egypts oppression of Palestinians.....Gaza has another border.

"Why was there no defined borders? "

There were/are clearly defined borders to the "Jewish state".

They were defined in UN General Assembly Resolution 181.

I think ahmedinjad is as trustworth as Natanyahooligan.

Islam cannot accept the existence of an Israeli state.

"Islamic doctrine cannot accept the existence of Israel."

Strange.... so how do you explain that both Egypt and Jordan accept the existence of Israel, and that the ENTIRE 22-country Arab block keep offering to recognize the existence of Israel in exchange for an end to this belligerent occupation of an Arab people?

I guess if the facts don't fit the theory then so much the worse for the facts, heh?

Maybe Arab countries simply aren't beholden to doctrine, in which case I'd have to ask who gives a shit what "Islamic doctrine" does (or does not) say.

"Islam requires conquest until Jews and Christians are killed or subdued under Sharia."

And yet "Islam" hasn't gone through a expansionist phrase of "conquest" since the Moors were kicked out of Spain.

Indeed, the ONLY country in the middle east that continues has been on the lookout for opportunities for military conquest and expansion is the only non-Islamic country in that region.

How odd...... you appear to be looking in the mirror, but you keep seeing your "enemies".

Th psychologists call that "transference", don't they?

OK, let's try this again. Honestly, the censorship around here is getting old. What I previously posted was...

Taking Egypt/Jordan's willingness to accept the existence of Israel as evidence that Islam can accept the existence of a Jewish state is false for two reasons - 1) it ignores the real motives behind this stated acceptance, the desire to maintain relationships with Israel's allies, and 2) assumes that this stated acceptance is representative of the religion/political system that is Islam. The Koran’s hatred of Jews and commands to kill and subjugate them are easily found, no matter how much apologists like yourself attempt to play the race card and accuse Islam’s critics of painting the entire civilization with one brush. Persecution of non-Muslims in Muslim nations is rampant. Islamic apology is laughable in the face the overwhelming body of evidence of Islam’s notorious intolerance.

As for Islam not having an "expansionist" phase, please tell that to the Dutch, the British, the Germans, the Austrians. The gross incompetence and general failure of the Islamic world thankfully has kept it within its borders militaristically, but the hordes of aggressive Muslim immigrants to the EU have an agenda that is hostile to democracy. Ask residents of Tower Hamlets in London, if you can find one that will speak to you in English.

I love how Arvay praises Asian Islamic states as “relatively tolerant.” YAY!!! Good for you! Funny you bring up Indonesia, where the tolerant practitioners of the religion of “peace” attacked Christians and faced no disciplinary action whatsoever. Ah, you must be so incredibly proud of your civilization. Who wouldn’t be when you can stand up tall and say it is “moderately tolerant.”

As for John’s assertion that many Arab (am I right to assume you mean Muslim?) countries aren’t beholden to doctrine – again, you fail to make the distinction between the superficialities of the state and the reality of the populace. Even in “modern, moderate” Turkey much of the country is informally ruled by sharia, Jews, women, Christians and gays fare about as badly as you might imagine.

Grabbing at straws, attempting to praise these societies for being “moderately tolerant” gives me a chuckle. Keep apologizing, but there’s a good reason this civilization’s most significant contribution to the modern world is the kebab.

Let's see if we can make it to 15.

"Taking Egypt/Jordan's willingness to accept the existence of Israel as evidence that Islam can accept the existence of a Jewish state is false for two reasons"

Wether Islamic doctrine can (or can not) "accept the existence of a Jewish state" is a moot point if the Islamic countries that surround Israel are not beholden to that doctrine.

Those counties are, demonstrably, not beholden to that doctrine.

Therefore the answer to your argument is this: who gives a shit what "Islam" SAYS, if that doesn't make any difference to how the "Islamic countries" BEHAVE.

I would suggest that the only people who give a shit (and I'm looking at you, NSC LOS ANGELES, and at you, JKOLAK) are those who want to construct their own straw man argument around it.

"As for Islam not having an "expansionist" phase, please tell that to the Dutch, the British, the Germans, the Austrians."

!!!!!! Are you suggesting that "Islam" has a Super Secret Plan to overthrow those countries by Super Stealthy Immigration?

"but the hordes of aggressive Muslim immigrants to the EU have an agenda that is hostile to democracy"

!!!!!! You are, aren't you.....

So you see a Dastardly Islamic Plot on a Global Scale, do you?

You see "hordes" of Muslims immigrating to the EU, and they are immigrating to the EU *because* they have an "agenda" revolving around the "aggressive" and "hostile" takeover of those countries in the name of their religion?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

How's this for an alternative: Muslims are immigrating to the EU in large numbers because the EU countries are bloody good places to live, and these guys want to live the good life?

"As for John’s assertion that many Arab (am I right to assume you mean Muslim?) countries aren’t beholden to doctrine – again, you fail to make the distinction between the superficialities of the state and the reality of the populace."

You do appear to suffer from an evidentiary shortfall i.e. you argue that it is Islamic doctrine that prevents those countries from "accepting the existence of a Jewish state", even when such a claim is demonstrably false.

Follow the bouncing ball......
a) Israel claims that it is "a Jewish state"
b) No less than 22 "Islamic countries" have stated that they will recognize Israel
c) Their condition for that recognition is that Israel end this occupation
d) Their condition for that recognition is NOT that Israel renounce its "Jewishness".

QED: what is preventing them from recognizing Israel is its continued occupation of a stateless Arab people, and not Israel's insistence that it is a "Jewish state"

Or, put another way: End the occupation and that recognition will come, and it will come REGARDLESS of wether (or not) Israel continues to insist that it is a "Jewish state".

As far as they are concerned Israel can keep on jumping up and down and hollerin' that "I'm a Jewish state! A Jewish state!" and their response will be "whatever, dude".

As far as they are concerned that behaviour is about as impressive as Israel jumping up and down and hollerin' "Look at me! I'm a tea pot! A tea pot!".

Sorry for the delay in responding, crazy time of year. You lads are pretty well riled up about this subject, I’m taking a wild guess that given the multiple exclamation points and fondness for ALL CAPS you may be college students (I’d say definitely with John). Am I right? You’ve got that indignant liberal college kid tone. I actually used to be a lot like you, it’s hard not to drink the cool-aid at those institutions, particularly at that tender age.

I may have to break this post up into sections to get through the filters.

One chap said: Therefore the answer to your argument is this: who gives a **** what "Islam" SAYS, if that doesn't make any difference to how the "Islamic countries" BEHAVE.

Quite simply, dear boy, it does impact how Islamic countries BEHAVE. Why don’t you ask the Iraqi Christians what they’re going to get up to for the holiday? Ah yes, nothing, because they threat of murder by the sea of Muslims that surrounds them is too great.

“How's this for an alternative: Muslims are immigrating to the EU in large numbers because the EU countries are bloody good places to live, and these guys want to live the good life?”

You raise an excellent point, Muslim nations are complete sh*t holes compared to EU countries, or virtually any other nation barring those of Africa. Why is that? Why are so many Muslim nations at war with each other? Why is the #1 killer of Muslims violence committed by other Muslims? You almost have to wonder if there isn’t something faulty at the heart of the “civilization.”

As for what most right-thinking citizens perceive as a hostile Muslim agenda, we’ve got the same issues here in the US. A selection of delightful quotes from the scumbags at CAIR:

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." -- CAIR cofounder and longtime Board chairman Omar Ahmad, 1998 (to be fair, dude issued a denial of this statement, but given his fondness for lying I disregarded it)
"I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future." -- CAIR spokesman Ibrahim "Honest Ibe" Hooper, 1993
"If only Muslims were clever politically, they could take over the United States and replace its constitutional government with a caliphate." -- prominent American Muslim leader Siraj Wahhaj, 2002

An equally pleasant little snippet was released in the UK:

32% of Muslim students in U.K. back "killing for Islam," 40% want Sharia – apparently this was a survey output of ~800 Muslim students in the UK. Pretty reliable sample size.

As for your highly credible Wikipedia sources attributing everything but sliced bread to Islam, very amusing, but I prefer to rely upon history. The one thing we can truly credit Muslims with doing was having the good sense to save many Greek texts that otherwise would have been lost to history. Did they create anything? Very, very little. Did they enhance some aspects of physics and mathematics originating with the Greeks? Definitely, and they should get credit for that. A religion as dogmatic and primitive as Islam doesn’t support creative thinking, and as such we’ve seen little to know authentic invention from this civilization.

I find it really funny that you have nothing to say to the assertion that it is pathetic and kind of hilarious that you have to praise Muslim countries for being “somewhat tolerant.” When I cite the numerous abuses of Islam towards non-Muslims all you can do is whine about the Palestinians, you have no rebuttal – because there is no rebuttal. Ever asked a Zoroastrian Kurd what he thinks of Islam? A black Sudanese? An Egyptian Coptic Christian? An Iraqi Christian? Your feeble defense of this religion by claiming “racism!” is laughable and typical of your ilk. If you’re cute little college boys, you’ll learn soon enough. If you’re actually followers of the moon god, good luck with that.

Well, Little Satan has been building condos, coffee shops and bookstores since winning the turf fair and square in the Six Day War.

Never seemed to matter before or in in the age of Oslo.

And what is the underlying meaning? That such infrastructure - and it's creators - are unwelcome in future Palestine?

"....since winning the turf fair and square in the Six Day War."

According to International Law you don't get to win turf. It is illegal. Thanks for admitting as much.

under international law you can win land as long as it is in a defensive war. now what is defensive is what is up in the air because one could always argue both sides, but it called the spoils of war and it is perfectly legal. OR else almost every country on this Earth is much smaller, because someone stole some land from somewhere at some time.

Then please explain Bangladesh and Cyprus. Plenty more after those - and ALL since WWII.

Point is - settlements on less than 1% of turf in question has been going on since the Summer of Love - before and after Oslo. Now - it's a sudden magical problem? Don't get played y'all.

"under international law you can win land as long as it is in a defensive war"

No, you can not: int'l humanitarian law does not regard "war" as akin to a game of poker.

If YOUR army finishes a war encamped outside YOUR territory then YOUR army is "an army of occupation", and that territory is "occupied territory".

No more. No less.

You don't get to keep that territory for yourself, because your seizure of that territory does not mean that you have "won" it, merely that you are in "control" of it.

That is true regardless of wether YOU insist that you fought a "defensive war", precisely because everybody who has ever gone to war has made that claim.

Heck, look up the "Gleiwitz incident" if you don't believe me.....

Neither the United States or Japan consider Israeli settlements illegal, although neither supports them. Richard Holbrooke said that the correct interpretation of UN resolution 242 did not require Israel to withdraw to the pre-1967 borders, but it does require the Arab states to recognize Israel and make peace with her.

It seems to be a position of enough Palestinians to elect Hamas democratically to office, and enough to scare the PA so badly in the west bank that they have illegally not held elections for 6 years....

Both Fatah and HAMAS are frightened of elections. Since neither has held one in eons - both are illegit authorities - like the majority of Arab League.

Good point MM. The U.N. mandate that created Israel eventually produced mandated borders too. Israel's reaction to Arab attacks has been to say all bets are off as far as boundaries. Here the PM is spouting about historical homeland claims... biblical claims...? It's all pretty ridiculous.

Why would Israel bother participating in a peace process if you offer not peace, but the dismantiling of Israel? When you reject the rights of the Jewish people in Israel, you doom any possibility of negotiated peace. Under your terms, peace is not possible.

By the way, the Jewish people are a people, not (only) a religion.

"Why would Israel bother participating in a peace process if you offer not peace, but the dismantling of Israel? When you reject the rights of the Jewish people in Israel, you doom any possibility of negotiated peace. Under your terms, peace is not possible.

By the way, the Jewish people are a people, not (only) a religion."

Flip this statement - substitute "Palestine" for "Israel" - and you apparently have Likud foreign policy. The settlements, bulldozing Arab property, burning Arab crops, exiling Arabs and frequent military adventures in the Gaza are rejection of rights and dismantling the country.

You will never have Peace this way.

You will have Peace when the Arabs from all of former Palestine are better off than before the gang of militaristic Jews descended from Europe. Until then they have reason to die for their cause and you will live in the fear you created.

The right wing claims the land is necessary for security, but this is also inverse. Land is not so precious as life, you have to share it.

I reach out to the Peace loving Israelis - take back your government from the war-mongers and end this.