Two States, No Solutions

Barack Obama says the Israeli-Palestinian impasse is a threat to the United States' national security. But is he acting like it is?

BY JAMES TRAUB | DECEMBER 17, 2010

Last weekend I was in Abu Dhabi, where I teach a class on U.S. foreign policy, and I was asked to do a Q&A on the Barack Obama administration's Middle East policy. Preparing myself, I knew what I wanted to say about Iran, and Iraq, and elections in Egypt. But I was flummoxed on the "peace process." The process had just ground to a halt with the administration's decision to abandon the mortifying effort to bribe Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu into adopting the very modest gesture of a 90-day freeze on settlements. I always try to challenge my audience's assumptions. But if my Emirati listeners felt that Israeli intransigence had driven the Palestinians to despair of the possibility of a two-state solution, I had nothing to say in response -- except that internal Palestinian divisions had made the problem worse.

It was a friendly audience -- this was Abu Dhabi, not Cairo. But afterward I was asked, "How can President Obama permit this? Can't he put pressure on the Israelis?" I thought: What's the right answer to this question? Is it: "He tried, but not hard enough, and then he gave up"? Or is it: "No, like in Afghanistan and Iraq, he's found that he has less leverage than he thought"?

You can make a reasonable argument that Obama has done about as well as he could with the hand he was dealt in Iran, in Iraq, and even in Afghanistan (though this last case has become harder and harder to make). You can't make this argument in regard to the peace process, where the administration has in effect admitted defeat, giving up hope for promoting direct talks between the two sides in favor of "parallel" talks, with an American mediator shuttling back and forth between capitals. Although this will remove the impediment of a settlement freeze Israel declined to accept, it will require compromises on underlying issues which neither side seems prepared to make, and offers accordingly little prospect of success. At the same time, Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and Gen. David Petraeus have stated publicly that the ongoing failure of the peace process constitutes a threat to American national security. The despair the Palestinians now feel, and the anger among broader Arab publics, is very dangerous for the United States. Not only al Qaeda, but Hamas and Hezbollah feed on the anger in the Islamic world over the plight of the Palestinians.

The White House has a number of potential alternatives, which I'll come to in a moment; the problem is that the Palestinians don't. I asked Rami Khouri, a Palestinian-American intellectual who directs a public policy institute at the American University in Beirut, what he felt Palestinians could or should do at this point. "There's zero leverage on our side," he said. "If this completely fails, I think the likelihood is you're going to get intense pressure within Palestinian society for a reconfigured politics -- maybe a national unity government, maybe a reactivation of the PLO, maybe resistance through peaceful means or military means."

As yet, there are no signs of a return to violence in the West Bank, only scattered talk of civil disobedience. Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas fears that violence would discredit his own government and strengthen Hamas. As for the proposed "national unity" government, Khalil Shikaki, head of the Palestinian Center for Policy and Social Science Research in Ramallah, told me that Abbas views reconciling with Hamas as tantamount to cohabitating with a wolf. "Fatah and Hamas perceive as each other as the most significant threat they confront," says Shakiki.  But how long can Abbas and his government survive rising public anger and disillusionment? This, in fact, is the problem with Thomas Friedman's recent suggestion that the best way for the United States to advance the cause of peace at this moment of stalemate is to "just get out of the picture" and force both sides to contemplate the nightmare scenarios before them. For the Netanyahu administration, any nightmare scenario appears to lie in a future beyond the prime minister's own political horizon; the status quo is fine. But it is precisely this prospect which will increase the pressure for resistance inside the Palestinian territories.

Abbas doesn't want to be "reconfigured" out of power. He will probably continue to build the institutions of Palestinian statehood, which Washington has encouraged and Israel has tolerated. Perhaps the Obama administration can press Tel Aviv to advance that project with more cooperation on security issues: fewer checkpoints and greater ease of movement. But Abbas's goal is to execute an end-run on the failed peace process by gaining unilateral recognition for Palestine's statehood. Brazil and Argentina have recently granted such recognition, though the European Union has said that it would do so only when "appropriate." This does, indeed, sound like a real form of leverage, though the state for which Abbas will be seeking recognition will remain strictly hypothetical until Palestine and Israel can agree on its borders. The real goal would be to gradually "delegitimize" what the Palestinians view as Israel's illegal occupation of its territories.

AHMAD GHARABLI/AFP/Getty Images

 

James Traub is a contributing writer for the New York Times Magazine and author of, most recently, The Freedom Agenda. "Terms of Engagement," his column for ForeignPolicy.com, runs weekly.

CANBERRA1

7:41 PM ET

December 17, 2010

virtual reality

This flawed anlysis (though being the usual rethorics from the author's political camp) is similar to analyzing a football game where only performance and mistakes of one team are discussed. The other team was never there. Israel this- Israel that- let's pressure Israel to do this- let's South Africanizise Israel blah blah blah.
Now let's put the other team on the gridiron: let's put pressure on the Palestinain "leadership" to recognise Israel as a Jewish state (Israelis did the same), let's pressure them to give up their desire to flood Israel with their refugees (isn't their state suppose to accomodate them??), let's pressure them to declare that a peace agreement will be the end of their demands from Israel. Oh yeah, and if they don't we can help to "Iranafy" them.
If the aid to Israel is a reason for the US to have leverage on Israel, the fact that the US is the biggest donor to Palestine must make at least a modest dent. And if you consider that Palestine is requested to sign papers and make declarations while Jerusalem (not Tel Aviv,check your facts Prof) is requested to give up assets, it's not too much to ask.
Guess you'll never hear that in the Gulf States, will you Prof? luckily we have wikileaks to tell us what they really think.

 

MALICEIT

9:26 PM ET

December 17, 2010

The article that this respods to

...is equally one sided and flawed as the one you trying to present.

 

AVILLA

11:15 PM ET

December 17, 2010

No

"recognise Israel as a Jewish state"

At the present moment, Israel is roughly 75% Jewish. America is 78% Christian. Shall we demand that everyone recognize America as a Christian state out of fairness?

"Israelis did the same"

Israelis did what?

"let's pressure them to give up their desire to flood Israel with their refugees"

Okay, this I agree with. The "Right of Return" is dumb for everyone involved. Especially for people whose families haven't been in the area in over 2,000 years, eh?

"isn't their state suppose to accomodate them??"

Uh, the "state" that is being proposed is *part* of the West Bank. That could not reasonably accommodate all Palestinians from East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the current West Bank plus refugees in other countries, no.

"a peace agreement will be the end of their demands from Israel"

Would this work in the opposite direction?

"Oh yeah, and if they don't we can help to "Iranafy" them."

We can help to make them a closed dictatorship? Brilliant! Should do wonders for limiting terrorism and war!

"that the US is the biggest donor to Palestine"

The US is a major donor (but does not make up the majority of aid) to the PA, not all of Palestine. I believe the current level from America to the PA is $400 million total, compared to Israel's $3.3 billion+ yearly.

"Jerusalem (not Tel Aviv,check your facts Prof)"

The official position of every government outside of Israel is that Tel Aviv is the Israeli capital until they stop using the word "Jerusalem" to refer to East and West Jerusalem together.

"we have wikileaks to tell us what they really think."

Yeah, we do.

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/12/16/linkage_and_its_discontents_what_wikileaks_reveals_about_israel_palestine

 

THOR BERGERS

11:03 PM ET

December 18, 2010

VITAL INTEREST

Israel and the Palistinians (both in and out Israel) will be at loggerheads for still some time I can expect. Which ever team is more lean or more mean, is at best irrelevant. Since there is no referee, the game will not end after 90 minutes, but simply once one of both gets exhausted. I don t really expect wisdom on either side. Now, as in best tradition, both sides are being funded by others. They may still spill their own blood, but waste others people money. Now again, we can be patient till those others run out of money as well.

But let s keep it simple, whatever romantic ideas you may have about the craddle of civilisation, it s not exactly civilised what s going on there.

And indeed you may wonder, what vital 'interest' is being defended. YES for the locals it s simple and plain. They live there, but for all of the others. Some 7 million guys being stubborn and doing there own thing no matter what, on top of a desert . Even Afghanistan makes more sense

 

JKLAIRWIN

11:00 AM ET

December 19, 2010

Facts

Speaking of facts, nobody in the world, other than Israel, recognizes the illegal occupation of East Jerusalem or the rest of the occupied territories. Including the US. Everybody in the world recognizes that all Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, including East Jerusalem are illegal. Nobody recognizes Jerusalem as the Israeli capital - the US embassy is in Tel Aviv, only a consulate in Jerusalem.

 

BETZ55

12:20 PM ET

December 20, 2010

canberra - yes, check your 'facts'

"Now let's put the other team on the gridiron: let's put pressure on the Palestinain "leadership" to recognise Israel as a Jewish state (Israelis did the same)":

The demands to be recognized as a Jewish state only began when netty came to power. The PLO recognized Israel's right to exist within its 1967 borders in 1988, and has repeatedly restated its position on this matter ever since. The PLO even convened its parliament in exile in 1998 to reiterate this acceptance in the presence of former President Bill Clinton. To this day, our recognition of Israel remains unreciprocated by the Israeli Knesset or the ruling Likud party. The Palestinains recently demanded the 1967 borders for recognition of Israel as a jewish state and good for them. Israel has never recognized the Palestinian state, but asked for Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state? Ridiculous.

"let's pressure them to give up their desire to flood Israel with their refugees (isn't their state suppose to accomodate them??)": Apparently you don't read your own posts. The Palestinians want their own state - get it? If the israelis don't settle for peace then the only solution will be a one state solution and israel will cease to exist as a the zionist debacle is by it's own hand. Palestinians don't want to live in israel, they want to live in Palestine. God, are you usually this obtuse?

"let's pressure them to declare that a peace agreement will be the end of their demands from Israel.": see above. The Palestinians have also said their demands will end with a Palestinians state of their own this time and time again.

"Oh yeah, and if they don't we can help to "Iranafy" them.": They don't need or want your help, it is clear to the entire world that israel's nazi style system of ethnic cleansing is morally wrong, reprehensible, and illegal. Your 'iranfy'comment is inane and stupid, on par with your intellectual level and the arrogant ignorance that is a cornerstone of israeli mentality.

"If the aid to Israel is a reason for the US to have leverage on Israel, the fact that the US is the biggest donor to Palestine must make at least a modest dent.": Pathetic isn't it? A supporter of Israel complaining about a group of people who accept aid from the US. In a hundred years the Palestinians couldn't get their hands as deep into the American pocket as Israelis have been for the past 60 years.

Each year US aid to Israel gives each man, woman, and child the equivalent of over $1500.00 each while cutting programs in the US due to “funding”.

Why on earth are American taxpayers forced to give billions yearly to Israel when our own people are homeless or soon to be, have no jobs, and no substantial healthcare?

Better yet, let's have a referendum and see how many US citizens want to continue giving israel 10 million dollars a day while our own go without in support of our biggest welfare client, israel.

"And if you consider that Palestine is requested to sign papers and make declarations while Jerusalem (not Tel Aviv,check your facts Prof) is requested to give up assets, it's not too much to ask.": The 'Prof' did check his facts. Tel Aviv is the capital of israel, not Jerusalem not matter how many time you say that it is. Under international law, neither East nor West Jerusalem is considered israel’s capital. Tel Aviv is recognised as israel’s capital, pending a negotiated settlement with the Palestinians. East Jerusalem is considered by the international community to be illegally occupied by israel, in contravention of several binding UN Security Council Resolutions.

"Guess you'll never hear that in the Gulf States, will you Prof? luckily we have wikileaks to tell us what they really think."; yea, now we know that more and more countries recognize israel as the obnoxious, toxic, rogue state that it is and that the illegal settlements will continue to be an issue.

 

JBIRDMENJ

12:51 PM ET

December 20, 2010

Occupied territory

Both the United States and Japan do not consider Israeli settlments in West Bank illegal, although the US (and probably Japan also) consider them unwise. Also see Richard Holbrooke's sppech about UN Resolution 242, which he said does not require Israel to leave the entire West Bank.

 

ZSINGERB

3:08 PM ET

December 20, 2010

Not Virtual, but Reality

Israel, unlike the US, was created as a Jewish Homeland, thus IS a Jewish state in a way that the US is not.

Jerusalem is one city, not two. You wouldn't split Berlin again, nor Paris, nor any other major city along ethnic borders. In 1947, there was one Jerusalem. It will not be split again. It IS the capital of Israel.

Jordan was created as the "Palestinian" country. Check your history from the end of the Ottoman Empire to today. There is more than enough room the the West Bank "palestinians" amongst the 90+% of them in Jordan.

 

MARTY24

7:39 PM ET

December 20, 2010

Check your facts

Hmm...
US gives Israel about $1500 per capita. Multiply by Israel's population of around 7 million, and I get about ten and a half billion, more than three times the amount implied by $10 million a day. Do you have problems with numbers?

Tel Aviv is Israel's capital under international law. No, Jerusalem is. International law empowers each state to name its own capital. Rejection of Israel's decision to name Jerusalem its capital means either rejection that Israel is a state or that any part of Jerusalem is within its territory. Either claim is inconsistent with virtually everything the Palestinian taqiyya mob is now claiming, e.g., that the State of Palestine accepts the 1967 borders. For the US, its stand on East Jerusalem would be strengthened by acknowledging that West Jerusalem is part of Israel by moving the embassy there.

The refugees don't want to live in Israel, but in their own state. If so, given that the "right to inundate" has been such a stumbling block, why doesn't the Palestinian leadership announce that no refugees will seek to settle within Israeli territory and agree to make that one of the written terms of any agreement that might develop?

A little though sometimes goes a long way to expose a lot of nonsense.

 

REDHOARSE

9:24 PM ET

January 3, 2011

The Levant

What is interesting is the relative tranquility and modest prosperity of the West Bank in contrast to the permanent rage and poverty of Gaza. This is the result of economic prosperity on the WB and the perception that Palestinian interests might be tied to the enormous economic engine of Israel. In addition the Palestinian Authority has virtually eliminated Hamas from the West Bank. The hooker in all of this is the volcano Egypt, stable only through the graces of the aging autocrat Mubarek. He goes, the region is redefined overnight. I would suggest that the only way out of the bomb shelter is to concentrate on an "all ships rise" economic approach to the WB and put off the military statehood parades.

 

DSK1971

12:52 AM ET

January 11, 2011

Palestine and its Capital Jerusalem

First, of all I am Palestinian..

Secondly, I am Christian.. I am saying this because it is relevant to my comments

Thirdly, my ancestors did not live in any desert

Fourth, in the Crusades the people SLAUGHTERED in Jerusalem by the Franks were:

listen to this if you didnt know:

1- Eastern Christians
2- Jews
3- Muslims

The country in the time of the Crusades was called Palestine at times, and Kingdom of Jerusalem at times

Fifth A person whose ancestors come from Jerusalem should be proud of his history... Current events are not symbolic of the region's history or future.

Sixth

When our Ancestors were using the Astrolabe, you couldn't even tell the time of day.. For those who dont know the Astrolabe is the earliest concept of a computer invented by Ptolemy of the Greeks in Alexandria Egypt, and improved upon by Arabs of the Orient

Seventh

Stop criticising my people and their shortcomings, for you have NOT experienced our Current history...
it is very easy to criticise a people with no citizenship at present...

Just imagine for once that it happened to your families..

Regards

 

DSK1971

12:53 AM ET

January 11, 2011

Palestine and its Capital Jerusalem

First, of all I am Palestinian..

Secondly, I am Christian.. I am saying this because it is relevant to my comments

Thirdly, my ancestors did not live in any desert

Fourth, in the Crusades the people SLAUGHTERED in Jerusalem by the Franks were:

listen to this if you didnt know:

1- Eastern Christians
2- Jews
3- Muslims

The country in the time of the Crusades was called Palestine at times, and Kingdom of Jerusalem at times

Fifth A person whose ancestors come from Jerusalem should be proud of his history... Current events are not symbolic of the region's history or future.

Sixth

When our Ancestors were using the Astrolabe, you couldn't even tell the time of day.. For those who dont know the Astrolabe is the earliest concept of a computer invented by Ptolemy of the Greeks in Alexandria Egypt, and improved upon by Arabs of the Orient

Seventh

Stop criticising my people and their shortcomings, for you have NOT experienced our Current history...
it is very easy to criticise a people with no citizenship at present...

Just imagine for once that it happened to your families..

Regards

 

DSK1971

12:54 AM ET

January 11, 2011

Palestine and its Capital Jerusalem

First, of all I am Palestinian..

Secondly, I am Christian.. I am saying this because it is relevant to my comments

Thirdly, my ancestors did not live in any desert

Fourth, in the Crusades the people SLAUGHTERED in Jerusalem by the Franks were:

listen to this if you didnt know:

1- Eastern Christians
2- Jews
3- Muslims

The country in the time of the Crusades was called Palestine at times, and Kingdom of Jerusalem at times

Fifth A person whose ancestors come from Jerusalem should be proud of his history... Current events are not symbolic of the region's history or future.

Sixth

When our Ancestors were using the Astrolabe, you couldn't even tell the time of day.. For those who dont know the Astrolabe is the earliest concept of a computer invented by Ptolemy of the Greeks in Alexandria Egypt, and improved upon by Arabs of the Orient

Seventh

Stop criticising my people and their shortcomings, for you have NOT experienced our Current history...
it is very easy to criticise a people with no citizenship at present...

Just imagine for once that it happened to your families..

Regards

 

DSK1971

2:02 AM ET

January 11, 2011

Jebus(Jerusalem) prior to King David

You really cannot go wrong with HISTORY:

According to the Hebrew Bible, the Jebusites (Hebrew: ????????, Modern Yevusi Tiberian Y??ûsî)

were a Canaanite tribe who inhabited and built Jerusalem PRIOR to its conquest by King David; the Books of Kings state that Jerusalem was known as Jebus prior to this event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite

 

ARIELY

2:22 AM ET

December 18, 2010

President Obama Arab- Israel policy failure.

Obama diverted the focus from the basic issue:

!! Arabs refusal to recognize the Jewish right to a independent state in the 3500 years old homeland is the key peace blocking factor!!
It was in 1947 and in 2010:

As a result of his policy the Palestinians are avoiding negations.

For years Palestinians and Israeli negotiated with some with some achievements and some drawbacks.
Recorded on Oslo agreement, President Clinton+ Barak+ Arafat cape David summit and Taba discussion/
PM Barak on Taba negotiations made an unprecedented offer to Arafat in exchange for a :

****formal letter stating that the conflict is over and no additional future requirements will be made****:
---The Palestinians open the deadly terrorist war against Israeli civilian---
------------
Wikileake disclosed: Arab leaders demand USA to stop Islamist Iran by any means without any connection to Israel.
Obama required Israel to give up major heritage and security assets, pretending that this is a key issue to form a coalition with Arabs states against Islamist Iran NUK's.

Obama knew first hand that his linkage is incorrect.

The politicians and people willing to contribute to a long standing peace are advised to require:
1: Arabs recognition of:
- Jewish right for their single state: Israel
-Palestinian right to create the number 23 Arab state.
2: Muslims governed by Arabs.---Jews and others governed by Israel.
-Israel will hand over to Palestinian government land inhabited by Arabs from Israel and the Jews from settlements will be governed by Israel.
-Arabs and Jew will remain in their current homes nobody will have to move physically.
3: Defining the boarders.
4: Solving the Refugees issue- Both Arabs and Jews from Arab countries.
5; Put and end to the Jews hate teaching and preaching in Arab world.
6; Arabs end of conflict declaration.
No additional issues are open for conflict continuation.
----------------
Background:
Every group of people prefers to be governed by their own.
Artificial boarders or imposed boarders are major reasons to conflicts.
Examples|::
Canada-French want their state: Belgian Flames want separations. Basques in Spain.
Czechoslovakia partition in 2 states
Irish and Scotts want independence from UK .
Tibet a nd China.
The many wars in Africa because tribes have been separated or united by Europeans in artificial state.
Kashmir- Cyprus- Kurds in Turkey and Iraq.
The Balkan wars.
The USSR partition into many states. Current wars in Russia.

 

BERTIL JANSSON

3:01 AM ET

December 18, 2010

There is only one durable solution

The land was sadly stolen by the International community and Palestinians were made 2nd degree citizens in a Jewish state.

The only possible solution is one state - not a Jewish state but a joint Jewish - Palestinian state.

Continuos, systematic and persistent policies of the U.S. government through the years, that by the minute have decreased security for caucasians world-wide by feeding and breeding terrorism through killing thousands of innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Pakistan and by just watching while 1400 Palestinians were slaughterd this January without a grunt, and through the extremely unwise policies of the government of Sweden has not lead to that it is no longer safe for my daughter and her little son to walk the streets of Stockholm.

A lonely looney - a self-difined extremely frustrated and sad ally of the Afghan people - I mean those poor Afghans who have resisted the mightiest army of the world for almost ten years - is being blamed - of course and rightfully so. The process now starting up in Sweden is blaming the Imams of the muslim community if this happens again. Very few dare to talk of the the 99,99% responsibility of the United States government for this situiation, punishing the peoples of Afghanistan and Iraq for September 11 and letting Netanyahu get away with just any cruelty.

Stop this now! Create a democratic mixed Jewish-Palestian state no matter the screems of Netanyahu else we all will march toward even darker ages than this one.

 

SABABA03

3:34 PM ET

December 18, 2010

The same failed solution.

Jansson writes:
"Stop this now! Create a democratic mixed Jewish-Palestian state no matter the screems of Netanyahu else we all will march toward even darker ages than this one."

Well, if you look at the history of the region since the rise of Islam in the 650 ACE. Jews DID LIVE with Muslims as minorities. Not for 62 years. but 1362 years. Not in one "bi-national state", but in 22 of them throughout the Middle Easy & N. Africa.

THEY ALL FAILED. Why try yet another one.?

Back in 1948, there were more then 1.2M Jews living as peaceful communities throughout the region as minorities as loyal citizens. By 1960, more then 1.1M of them no longer lived in those countries, in which they had lived for centuries. All were forced out of their homes, and land by their Muslim countryman. Their properties were looted by the local Muslim neighbors.

Subsequently, these all were either absorbed by their fellow Jews in Israel, as proud and free citizens. others resettled elsewhere throughout Europe and N. America.

So, one asks. Where are the refugee camps filled with Jews shouting and screaming "revenge".

Why is it, When Muslims persecute, or expel their minorities (Jews, Ba'hais, and now Christians in Iraq, Egypt & Beth-Lehem under PLO), the rest of the world supposed to turn blind eye because it is happening on self proclaimed land "Islamic waqf"?.

But, when they are prevented by a determained minoity as Jews in Israel, from contiued of their destructive intolerance, now Arab & Muslims houl their lung out the victimized crap.?

 

JUAN67

1:45 PM ET

December 20, 2010

"Jews DID LIVE with Muslims

"Jews DID LIVE with Muslims as minorities. Not for 62 years. but 1362 years. Not in one "bi-national state", but in 22 of them throughout the Middle Easy & N. Africa."
What a pathetic argument...
Yes ,, Jew lived and still living as a minority in many Muslim countries, but their percentage in the the population at best won't pass 0.009. Take Morocco for example, the 1st advisor of their king is a Jew how was teacher. Muslims and Jews lived in harmony for centuries, the problems only started when the Zionists hijacked the historical sufferings of the Jews to justly their crimes and to support their impossible dream.

 

MARTY24

8:20 PM ET

December 20, 2010

Jews and Muslims

The notion that Jews lived in harmony with their Muslim neighbors when under Muslim rule is mainly a myth. There have been times and places where this was true, but more Jews were killed in ethnic violence in Muslim lands than in Europe, and there were more Jews in Europe than in the Muslim world, so the rate of persecution was actually higher.

Much of the persecution was a result of the dhimma, a system of discrimination that originated most of the concepts that eventually emerged as apartheid. Jews (and Christians) were required to wear badges identifying them to Muslims so Muslims could avoid them. Synagogues could not be repaired without bribing Muslim officials. Jews could not ride horses, and had to get off the sidewalk if a Muslim approached from the opposite direction. Jews were subjected to an annual tax, more of an extortion, to "thank" the Muslims for not killing them; when they paid it this was acknowledged with a slap on the face. Despite generally complying with these requirements, Jews were still subject to pogroms.

Israeli Jews who trace their heritage to the Muslim world are aware of this and are among the most opposed to making concessions to the Palestinians. They, or their ancestors, lost their property when they were expelled by the Muslim rulers of their states, and there has been next to no discussion of compensating them. Jews with European backgrounds tend to downplay what happened to their brethren from the Muslim world in part because they know rather little about it. For all those in the taqiyya effort that dominates this site, the Jews from Brooklyn you like to denounce are actually more prone to agreeing to make concessions to the Palestinians than these Eastern Jews.

It is for this reason that the "one-state" solution is simply a formula for exacerbating the problem. There is no conceivable mechanism to prevent the reimposition of the dhimma by an Islamist group that might be "voted" into power should a one-state solution emerge, assuming the Islamists don't make good on their announced intention of engaging in genocide against any Jews who remain.

People of good will who wish to see this conflict end have no alternative but to support Israel's demands that the Palestinians finally concede that Jews will have rights in the Middle East. Unless they do that, there is no peaceful solution at all.

 

SABABA03

9:54 PM ET

December 20, 2010

1000 Arabian nights.

junan67:
You claim Jews did live with (or is it under the yoke of) Muslims. Until "the Zionists" came.

Since 1948 to date, there are estimated 600,000 Israelis living elsewhere throughout the West. Many of them, originally had immigrated to Israel from Islamic countries ALMOST NONE OF THESE ISRELIS WENT BACK TO THEIR ARAB / ISLAMIC COUNTRIES. WHY?

If these Israeli Sephardic Jews had it so good with Muslims, why they refuse to even visit their country of origin?.

 

RAY GIBBS

9:36 AM ET

December 18, 2010

Some Solution a Palestinian State

a. European Union determines, now, it is "appropriate" granting "recognition" to the Palestinians for/to their State.
b. Palestinians ("map", in hand, along 1967 borders) petition the United Nations for "recognition" their State.
c. Palestinians (similar "maps" in hand) seeks "recognition" their State, an ad hoc basis, from every world country of the Palestinians's choosing.
d. President Obama tells our nation, the lack of "peace", between Israel (our friend) and Palestinians (our friends) continues, regardless all sides's best efforts, being a "strategic" military threat to our country, citizens (especially military members) and financial resources.
e.President Obama announces the US will begin, henceforth, placing "conditions for peace" on all foreign aid (American tax dollars) to Israel and the Palestinians.
f. President Obama offers our country's gratitude, but "recalls" special Envoy, George Mitchell, from present "peace" talks; offers our country's gratitude, but asks former British PM Tony Blair to step aside, from said "peace" talks.
g. President Obama announces Gov. Bill Richardson, New Mexico, will be our nation's new, special Envoy for "peace", the present "peace" talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

peace everyone, this season of peace, all our tomorrows

 

THEYENGUY

1:47 PM ET

December 18, 2010

Being Flummoxed

I can understand you being flummoxed on the "peace process."

Through the prophet Zechariah, the Lord God spoke: ”In that day I will make Jerusalem a stumbling block for all people; all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth gather against it.” (Zechariah 12:3). Gills Exposition of the Entire Bible comments on the verse relating: “And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people. The Targum renders it “a stone of offence”; at which they shall stumble and fall; but it seems to design the immovableness of the state and condition of Jerusalem, that those who attempt to remove her out of her place, or to make any alteration in her happy circumstances, will not be able to do it.”

 

BENIYYAR

4:15 PM ET

December 18, 2010

There is already a Palestinian state

The most important point that the rather pro Arab and pro Palestinian writer of this badly thought out "analysis" left out is the simple and obvious fact that there is already a Palestinian state in existance. That Palestinian state is by it's own statements as well as it's own government charter in a state of perpetual, genocidal, and uncompromising war to destroy the Jewish State of Israel and all the Jews there. To prove this case, this Palestinian state actually allows it's military to launch unprovoked and indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks into Israel on a daily basis, while also arming and training terrorist fighters to be sent on murder missions into Israel as well. While Israel attempts to respond to these unprovoked and deadly attacks in a moderate and tempered manner, this Palestinian state continues it's lethal attacks on innocent Israeli towns, and continues to upgrade it's weaponry which is smuggled in from the Sinai Peninsula and financed by Iran, the Palestinian Authority under the auspice of Salam Fayyad, as well as by American donations.
Of course by now we all know where this Palestinian state is located and what it is called, and that it was actually democratically elected to power.
The Palestinian state referred to is the Gaza Strip, where all the Jews were ethnically cleansed, and only Palestinians now live there. It is a purely Palestinian state
The author of this inadequately thought out and badly informed piece of blatant anti Israel and pro Palestinian propaganda seems to want Israel to make the same dangerous concessions to the Palestinians in the West Bank which were made in the Gaza Strip. Concessions which would in all liklehood lead to another Palestinian state, this time in the heart of Israel, which would also be democratically taken over by Hamas/Iran and would also be in a perpetual and uncompromising state of war to destroy the Jewish State of Israel.
The only solution to that state of affairs would be another Arab Israeli war.
Is that what the author of this piece really has in mind?

 

NICHOLAS WIBBERLEY

7:18 PM ET

December 18, 2010

Deligitimisation

Global public opinion is already shifting, raising pressure on Israel and steadily gaining momentum. Cast Lead obviously gave it a boost, as did the first anniversary, and so doubtless will the second in a few days. Actions too numerous to itemise have been helping it along as well. How often was Clinton, and Obama in milder terms, obliged to define Israeli actions as ‘unhelpful’ during the failed negotiations? I am not aware that anyone felt it necessary to say that about Abbas’ actions over the same period. The grand public launching of the doomed negotiations was a stroke of genius if the purpose was to fertilize the deligitimisation of Israel in the occupied territories.

 

AKIVA

2:48 PM ET

December 19, 2010

False Liberals

So many moralists here...so ready to castigate Israel...but where are these so-called humanitarians when it comes to the brutal oppression taking place daily in each and every one of the Arab countries??? These regimes wouldn't know a human right if they ran right smack into one. Meanwhile, where in the Middle East do women, gays, Christians, and yes, even Muslims, have the most rights? That's right: Israel.

I support a Palestinian state, but let's be clear: does anyone honestly expect it to be a democratic, open society? Sadly, it hasn't happened yet in the Arab world. That is the crux of the problem.

 

JUAN67

2:00 PM ET

December 20, 2010

"These regimes wouldn't know

"These regimes wouldn't know a human right if they ran right smack into one."
And who supports those regimes ?? ,, specially in Jordan an Egypt,, democratic Egypt is against the interests of Israel .

 

JACOB BLUES

4:52 PM ET

December 20, 2010

Yes of course, the one-state solution.

How's that working out in Lebanon? Right, real good. Ready for a multi-decade civil war between Israel and the Palestinians?
.
I'm sure that would work out real well.

 

MARTY24

8:52 PM ET

December 20, 2010

Some comments

Kunino writes of Palestinian territory being eaten away by Israel. In reality, Israel is a succesor state to the Palestine Mandate, which ceased to exist on May 14, 1948, so there really was no "Palestine" any more to be eaten away. The resolution that authorized the Jews to establish Israel also authorized the Arabs to establish a state, which they didn't so much fail to do as refused to do. That is one root cause of the current problem.

To understand why this point matters, suppose the Jews had decided to call their state "Palestine" instead of Israel; until the Jews opted for Israel, "Palestinian" referred to the Jews in the Mandate. According to Kunino's logic, this would entitle the Jews to all the land of the Mandate. Does he really believe this? If not, his argument is without merit.

I comment above on the problem with the one-state solution, but Mighty Mouse's analogy between Israel and white South Africa in the days of apartheid is so flawed it calls for comment. He probably doesn't remember this, but two key factors in bringing an end to apartheid were that black south africans didn't express hostility toward whites and whites played a major role in bringing an end to apartheid. The situation in Israel is radically different. Groups like Hamas, which would be a part of any political system created by a one-state solution, openly advocate genocide as the fate of Israeli Jews, and polls show that few Arabs are prepared to live in peace with Jews either in a one-state or a two-state solution. Meanwhile, Israeli Jews who know Muslims best are categorically opposed to making any concessions to them.

Mighty Mouse and his friends from the taqiyya squad would like readers to believe this conflict started no earlier than 1967 when Israel took control over the remainder of the Palestine Mandate. The reality is that it started nearly fourteen centuries ago when Muslims chose to destroy Jewish tribes that came under their control. This is the real problem that needs to be addressed if peace is to come to the region.

 

SABABA03

10:17 PM ET

December 20, 2010

Two State Solution For whom?

While the proposal of a Bi-National state will benefit the Palestinians, It spells ominous future to the Jews.

Here are few reason why:

1. To have Jews and Muslims living with each other in democracy and harmony, each group must accept the other, and respect its values. While Arab-Israelis do so. Arab-Muslims never accepted Jews presences in region. Nor Judaism ever been respected by Muslim Clergies.

2. History had proved that, throughout their 1400 year history, Arab-Muslims have demonstrated their intolerance to, and desire to subjugate other minority religions to Islam.

3. Those Muslims throughout the Arabs states, whom speak of “a State with democracy and harmony for all”. “Rule of Law”, and “Equal right for every citizen – Jews and Muslims”. Themselves, have yet to demonstrate their adherence to these principals in their own respective countries. , or their parent

4. The facts is, more then 95% of Israeli-Jews object to the idea of giving up their independence to govern themselves, according to their own 4000 year old religion, and heritage, in a democratic state, where individuals rights are protected by law. Israelis fear that, once they become a minority in their own country, their heritage, Jewish identity and freedom, will be subjugated to Islam and intolerant fundamentalist Muslim clerics, as they have done it in other countries in the region.

5. Absolute majority of Israeli-Arab citizens, also see the same dangers to their own freedom of expression, and democracy enjoyed under the Israeli government. After which, it will be taken away once Muslims become majority in Israel. Therefore, despite their new-found-Palestinian Identity, they also object to this notion as well.

6. After 1900 years of persecution, living under other religions, Jews have learned that, the only place where they can be safe from persecution, and a viable society is under their own government on the land of their ancestors in the state of Israel. In a country where they can defend themselves by themselves.

7. Jews and Muslim mostly are separate, and distinct societies, From Religion, to language, Cultural, and overall view of life. Jews look forward for ways to improve their lives. Due to their oppressive regimes and fundamentalist clerics, innocent average Muslims are forced to look backward into by-gone eras of glories.

8. The idea of Bi-national citizenship between Jews as minorities, and Muslims as majorities, have already been tried. Not only in one state, but in 22 states. Not for 62 years, but for 1362 years. All have failed.

9. Prior to 1967, West Bank was part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt. Most of Jordan's population comprise of same Palestinians as those in West Bank. Queen Rai'na of Jordan, herself is a Palestinian.
It seems, a federation of Jordan-West Bank-Gaza, is far more constructive and palatable, then Bi-National state between Jews and Muslim-Arabs.
Just look at the table below where it compares the Palestinians with Jordan, Egypt & Israel Palestinians. Then the picture will be much lucid and palatable.

.SUBJECT.......................................JORDAN.....EGYPT...ISRAEL
- Common Language ...........................Yes............Yes...........No
- Common religion................................Yes............Yes...........No
- Common Customs.............................Yes............Yes..........No
- Common Heritage .............................Yes............Yes...........No
- Population identifies itself as Pals.......75%............N/A..........0%
- Population density (per sq. km):.(*)......62.4...........79.............308.7
- Its Queen is a Palestinian:..................Yes.............No...........No
- Until 1967, Pals were part of these states:.Yes............Yes..........No
- Its founding leader (Arafat) was born ....No.............Yes..........No

Now, if you would be a pragmatic and rational Palestinian. In which of one of these states would you prefer to live in peace and harmony.

And, as an unbiased observer, to which one of these states would you advise Pals to join.

(*) Source: (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.htm)