Oh, the American naivety! I don't see why a clandestine nuclear weapons program is worse than an open one. The result is the same: weapon of mass destruction. If the possession of such a weapon makes a regime illegitimate, I'd call for the removal of a dozen governments - starting with that of the USA.

With the idiotic war-scenario you've just described, you offer the military occupation of North Korea. Two questions: 1. In what sense is that better than the military occupation of the South by the North? (I'd say, it even worse: a culturally and racially alien occupation); 2. How does the US-style "liberation" (read: occupation) work out in Afghanistan and Iraq? Let me give you a hint: BAD.

US amnesty to North Korean citizens??? What do you think the US government is, an international court of justice? How about a North Korean amnesty for the US war-crimes?

What on Earth makes you think that the destruction of North Korea is the magical key to world peace? IMHO in case of the scenario you've described, South Korea would be more than happy to hang on to the nuclear weapons, especially having China as neighbor. How would the Korean regime change affect the proliferation to Burma, Iran and Syria? NK had weapons long before the Iranian dream, so the two states are hardly connected.

I'm not defending the NK regime, those people could surely do with a more efficient government. But having the US policing and occupying yet another sovereign state is simply unbearable. All in the name of peace and justice, unjustified wars and political prisons aside.

with all due respect, I'll just deal with one point (not that I agree with other points you made).
"Seoul's good relations with Japan through it's history"
I was born, raised and lived in Seoul for sixteen years, my parents are Korean and i attended a Korean high school, and from my own experience (and what I've been taught in school regarding Korea's history for that matter) that statement, which serves as the core base of your stance, cannot be more wrong. Until the recent military provocations by North Korea and China's stance on the YeonPyeong and Cheon'an incidents, polls indicated that South Koreans are more fond of the Chinese. But due to historical and geopolitical issues, South Koreans don't really like any of the two as we do Americans actually. One more thing, have you even heard of the Japanese annexation of Korea from 1910-1945 or the Dokdo island conflict?

S04I2 mentioned the occupation of Korea by Japan. It is actually worse than that. Japan invaded Korea years earlier than 1910, but the formal annexation treaty was signed in 1910. After Japan was defeated in 1945, Korea was divided between the USSR and the USA as part of the cleanup. Ronald Spector's book "In the Ruins of Empire: The Japanese Surrender and the Battle for Postwar Asia" does a good job of describing the aftermath of WWII in Asia. In other words, Japan was responsible for the division of Korea into two parts. Without Japan, Kim Il-sung might have been a nobody.

The Japanese cook working for Kim Jong-il wrote that Kim Jong-un was a nasty person because of the way he treated the cook. Perhaps KJU simply hates Japanese.

And let's not forget the hundreds of thousands (reliable estimates range from 200,000 to 400,000) of female slaves from Korea, China, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia, and other Japanese-occupied territories. These women were forced into prostitution for use by the Japanese army. I'll bet this still angers Koreans.

Yes, quite right. The Koreans--north and south--have historically detested the Japanese and felt an affinity for the Chinese. It is this fact that makes me suspicious of the Cheonan incident and all the other violent exchanges that have been blamed on North Korea. Now we have a supposed incident between a 60 ton Chinese fishing boat and a 3000 ton South Korean Coast Guard ship. I think it is quite possible that all these incidents have been stage managed by Lee Myung Bak with US support to try and re-engineer South Korean sentiment against China and create the basis for a US-ROK-Japan alliance against China which the South Korean people, left to their own, would be unlikely to support.

It is certainly possible that SK manufactured the Cheonan sinking for political purposes. LBJ's Gulf of Tonkin incident comes to mind.

However, that would involve a number of countries being in on the conspiracy, as the UK, Canada, Australia, and Sweden participated in the investigation. For this reason I think it is highly unlikely that SK was responsible for the sinking.

However, there is a more likely scenario as I mentioned in my blog post "Pearl Harbor 2.0: China attacks": China could have sunk the Cheonan using NK torpedoes. China is using NK as a pawn for trade reasons, with the 1-2 million of starved-to-death NK residents being mere collateral damage. And NK is very useful for China to keep the USA away from its border.

You might also find my blog series "The coming USA-China war" interesting, as China is building a serious navy, including submarines.

Why would hostilities between the Koreas benefit China? China has had good relations with both. China is South Korea's biggest trading partner and the only "ally" North Korea has. This is a straddle that the emerging hostilities are making harder to sustain.

The presidency of the devout Presbyterian Lee Myung Bak is the window of opportunity for the US to reverse the long-term tendency of South Korea towards neutrality between the developing US-China strategic cataclysm.

And what role did the Swedes, Australians really have in the South Korean "investigation"? I think it was a rubber stamp.

No, I have great difficulty thinking that China is behind this.

So, if the US, in collusion with Lee Myung Bak, is trying to cut China out and create US-Japan-ROK alliance against China, what is your opinion? Do you (and South Koreans in general) like the US enough to engage in an alliance with Japan against China?

You have some interesting insights on the sinking of the S Korean Corvette and the loss of 46 sailers. The torpedo remains that were conveniently found were of German origin and the N Koreans don't use that type of torpedo. All stories that questioned the sinking have been removed from their original websites, so there is an active effort to scrub or censor any dissenting opinions. Remember how easy it was to fool the US Congress and public into believing Iraq had nukes and therefore , we had to attack now.
If anything to help the S Koreans ease their inferiority complex with not having enough big guns, we could take some old battleships out of mothballs and gather up those old 16 inch naval gunshells and send them to S Korea.

The problem with conspiracy theories -- and that is what you believe in -- is that believers lose sight of common sense. The people who believe that the WTC towers were leveled via conventional explosives fail to understand that many people would be involved, and that many people would be hard-pressed to keep a secret.

Your hatred for Lee Myung-bak warps your view of reality. If you think the Australians would rubber stamp anything, then you have never met an Australian.

Mugwump: "The problem with conspiracy theories -- and that is what you believe in -- is that believers lose sight of common sense. The people who believe that the WTC towers were leveled via conventional explosives fail to understand that many people would be involved, and that many people would be hard-pressed to keep a secret.

Your hatred for Lee Myung-bak warps your view of reality. If you think the Australians would rubber stamp anything, then you have never met an Australian."

1. Yes, you are stating the obvious to label it a "conspiracy theory". And so what? Conspiracy is quite normal human behavior. To attack it as "conspiracy" is no argument at all.
2. The WTC is irrelevant to this question. Don't distract us from the point in question.
3. What "hatred for Lee Myung Bak did I articulate? I think LMB's Presbyterianism contributes substantially to his pro-US sentiments.
4. Your last sentence is ludicrous. Since you know so much about it, exactly what role did the Australians play in the "investigation"?

I wouldn't go far as that.
The collision between the ships were caused by the chinese shipping boat crashing into the Korean one to prevent the petrol from persuing other shipping boats that were 300m from the petrol ship. And, you're suggesting Lee Myong Bak has the power to make the Chinese go against South Korea in the recent stream of events regarding the North (as you mentioned) and make the boats collide just to have the South Korean public against the Chinese to consolidate alliance with US and Japan. Logically it would be so much better to have the Chinese on our side rather than against, condemn North Korea and agree on a Security Council resolution. Lee Myung Bak is under constant pressure both from the media and the public for his foreign policy failures magnified by the shipping boat incident which occurred a few days ago and the improper reaction to the YeonPyong bombing. Even with the US and Japan on our back, China is a huge burden especially when Russia doesn't really seem to know which side it wants to be on.

that one was in response to XENOPHON's comment

I may be slightly biased by my personal distrust of the Chinese (in fact, more than the Japanese) but I cherish the US-Japan-ROK alliance against the North. China has been North Korea's strongest ally and it would be hard to expect China to support South Korea's stance. China has been busy the past few days supporting the North's use of nuclear technology, illicitly opening way for North Korea's weapons exports and condemning SOUTH KOREA (not North Korea) for escalating tensions in the Korean Peninsula (it's ridiculous, i don't know if they're blind but the North Korea's bombed South Korea). And in the most recent Security Council meeting, without the US, Britain, France and Japan along with other allies, the SC might have condemned South Korea.

I did not completely explain my rationale above. I will add some comments.

KJI and his family live a life of extreme luxury: lobster, French wine, luxury autos, etc. This inflow needs to be stopped. This might be the only thing the Kims understand. But keep basic food coming so as to not make the burden on the ordinary NK resident any worse.

And if it has not been done already, all known bank accounts of the Kims and the military need to be frozen.

A blockade would have to be enforced by both the SK and US navies.

One devious form of propaganda, as I mentioned in my blog post "North Korea: the shadow of the son ," would be to use smugglers to bring in DVD players, along with specially chosen movies that depict life in SK and other parts of the world. These movies would be existing movies that show the best of life in Seoul, NYC, Paris, etc. The USA and SK would donate these goods; it is irrelevant that smugglers would make money. We need to educate NK residents of the reality outside their prison.

More important than the economy size is SK's position on the world exporter list: 8; NK is currently 127, just ahead of Mozambique. If the Korean Peninsula were one big exporter, it would quickly surpass France, the Netherlands, and Italy to become #5. I'll bet a combined Korea could even surpass Japan to become #4. And given the USA's race to outsource all manufacturing to China and other countries, Korea would eventually become #3 behind China and Germany.

I agree with the general thrust of your comments.

But it's not a question of misunderstanding for Luttwak. He is a neocon ideologue who would undoubtedly like to see tension on the Korean peninsula for the strategic advantage it potentially conveys to the US. His analysis is slanted, not uncomprehending.

So, now that we in the US and all of our allies throughout the world of the past 60 years have been pronounced by you as not only clueless but as completely ignorant, useless, parochial, a joke, I should guess all of the world's problems have been solved. That is, do you suggest or imply that all countries should disassociate or disconnect themselves from we 'idiots' in the US? If so, that certainly would upset the status quo, wouldn't it? You are indeed free to curse the darkness but try not to let your wind in doing so blow out too many candles. With the exception of the DPRK, the CCP-PRC is not a status quo power: Beijing is an empire builder. For all of Beijing's claims to be a modern developing economy which brings civilization to Tibet, XinJiang and other far reaching environs, it remains a fascist censoring dictatorship that manipulates its population on the cynical predicate of making and keeping the people of the People's Republic ignorant. Beijing's reaction to the Nobel Peace Prize to Dr Liu Xiaobo confirms to the world the reactionary compulsions of the eternal dictatorship of China.

So, now that we in the US and all of our allies throughout the world of the past 60 years have been pronounced by you as not only clueless but as completely ignorant, useless, parochial, a joke, I should guess all of the world's problems have been solved. That is, do you suggest or imply that all countries should disassociate or disconnect themselves from we 'idiots' in the US? If so, that certainly would upset the status quo, wouldn't it? You are indeed free to curse the darkness but try not to let your wind in doing so blow out too many candles. With the exception of the DPRK, the CCP-PRC is not a status quo power: Beijing is an empire builder. For all of Beijing's claims to be a modern developing economy which brings civilization to Tibet, XinJiang and other far reaching environs, it remains a fascist censoring dictatorship that manipulates its population on the cynical predicate of making and keeping the people of the People's Republic ignorant. Beijing's reaction to the Nobel Peace Prize to Dr Liu Xiaobo confirms to the world the reactionary compulsions of the eternal dictatorship of China.

I am having difficulty understanding the meaning of your rambling. Your "argument" is a disconnected string of generalities. Let me recapitulate my view for you since you were unable to grasp it in your first attempt:

1. I find the circumstances surrounding the sinking of the Cheonan and the exchange of fire incidents--both before and since the Cheonan sinking--very suspicious.
2. The US is clearly trying to cobble together an alliance of nations--from India to Japan--to contain the rise of China. In NE Asia, the key countries are Japan and South Korea.
3. Lee Myung Bak's Presbyterian ideology and his extreme pro-US position is uncharacteristic of the SK politicians who have held that office in the last two decades.
4. Lee Myung Bak--though not the majority of the South Korean people--strongly supports the concept of a US-Japan-ROK alliance to oppose China.
5. It is my suspicion that the string of "incidents" over the past year between NK and SK is actually a deliberate attempt to create a new fear of NK among the SK people and, more importantly, to convince them that China is a threat and that they should abandon their traditional affinity for China and antipathy towards Japan and join in an anti-China alliance.

Now, I hope that is clear enough for you.

As far as your remarks, the first several sentences are to incoherent to comment on. I do agree with your statement of the obvious that China is not a status quo power. However, the conclusions you derive from this are ludicrous. China MAY be an empire builder some day. Right now, they are simply trying to dismantle the US Empire that asserts it right to exercise military control over the entire globe. China will never accept this, and if current trends continue, there WILL be a war at some point.

I agree with the implication--as overly dramatic as it is--that China has subjugated Tibet and the Uighurs--just as the US subjugated the Iroquois, the Cherokees, the Lakota, and stole territory from Mexico (which was stolen itself). Are you trying to make a point here?

China is certainly not an open republic in a Western sense--that's certainly true. But our openness has never deterred us from our thieving, robbing ways. Athens may have been more open than Sparta, but it didn't stop the Athenians from subjugating the other democracies of the Delian League. Of course, in the end, Athens got its just deserts.

We shall see what we shall see.

First, I will dispose of your header "Let me school you" by noting it further presents the presumptuous and arrogant self positioning that self degrades your posts. Many other posters often say they have trouble understanding you. Thanks for being your own worst advocate, sort of like a FP Comments section Sara Palin. I get satisfaction and reward from sparring and debating, arguing, but addressing your posts is a matter of mopping up your messes which itself wears thin quickly.

1) Yes, we know you and Beijing too find the circumstances of the sinking of the Cheonan to be unresolved, however, the many others of us who are free of conspiracy theories see the matter through clear eyes all the way to Pyongyang-Beijing-Moscow.

2) Japan knows that if the DPRK goes to war Japan will be bombarded by its missiles. (Remember Saddam and Israel in 1991?). This is a no brainer. Japan is the natural ally of the DPROK and the US not to mention the rest of the world in the matter of North Korea.

3) Lee Myung-bak is a man of religious faith, in particular Presbyterian; he is not a religious "ideologue" from some dessert cave in the Middle East, or some mountain cave in South Asia or from some jungle swamp in the tropics. Pres Lee is a sophisticated man even if he is a god worshiper. You need to show us the picture of him mounted on a horse wearing a loose white body shirt with a red cross of Christ on it. (Anyway, I sent Lee an email the other day suggesting he might be better suited to be Episcopalian or Anglican. I'd like to see what you might say if Lee took up my thought and the for reasons I gave him. Send me your email address and I'll cc you.)

4) Since the bombardment of Yeongpyong scientific public opinion research surveys have shown a sea change in the attitudes of the S Korean people towards N Korea. There in fact has been a surge of S Korean 'youngbloods' volunteering for the marine corps. But this of course fits exactly into your conspiracy theories, doesn't it? The fact is the world knows the DPRK is its own worst enemy.

5) See number 4 above.

What is clear to me is that there are more conspiracy nuts than there are bolts.

In my item # 2 in response to XENOPHON (izzat a chemical) my reference of course is to the fact that in the present tumultuous dynamics of NE Asia, Japan is the natural ally of the ROK and the US.

I should also speak to your fraudulent claims concerning the 19th century United States vs the Native American populations, and of course vice-versa. The United States unlike certain other countries and their peoples can and do grow and learn from their past dubious experiences, policies and practices. The period of US history known as the Indian Wars has taught the people and the government of the United States the value of human rights, human dignity and the consequences of failing to develop these principles and practices in the post World War II world. Genocide gets us nowhere. The US electing its first black president advances us considerably but far from thoroughly or entirely (in your frenzies in pursuit of new conspiracies you omitted mention of racial and racist slavery in the US).

In stark contrast, Pyongyang's cruel and heartless hoarding of its country's national wealth, which has resulted in the mass slaughter by hunger or by other nefarious political means 1 to 2 million of its own population, places the elites of Pyongyang back into the time of the kings of old who found it most useful to claim to rule by divine right. In China up to the present, the mandate of dictators and same or similar dynasties has always been predicated on "the" Mandate of Heaven based on the Chinese peculiar notion of what constitutes heaven and the unique meaning and belief in and of their received mandate.

Well, I can understand. His classes were at 08.00 and, well, you're not an early riser.

Well, were US serious about building up South Korea's armed forces back before Korean War, there might be no Korean War in the first place. SK didn't have tanks, and not much artillery and no air force, no navy and no marines at the beginning of Korean War.

As US public have raged and surged forward in rather haphazardly way after 911 to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, so does SK's public opinion after the artillery bombardment by NK, it seems. But they also know that they have far much to lose, maybe by far than NK, considering their hard-won economical prosperity.

The article mentioned is quite interesting to read, and I just add that new defense policy guideline was just published last week, which express grave concern about NK.

As admiral Mullen have said at Seoul and Tokyo, there is great potential in the concept of US-SK-Japan corporation in military affairs. I'm not familiar with the real capability and capacity of Japan Self Defense Forces, but if corporation go along well, then surely US and SK's counterparts have chances to watch it first hand. In fact, this year's joint US-Japan field exercise "Keen Sword" have observers from SK's armed forces.

Merry Christmas and let Peace prevail in the Peninsula!