Nuclear Winner

Environmentalist icon turned nuclear-power booster Stewart Brand tells Foreign Policy why, even after the Fukushima disaster, he thinks nuclear is the energy of the future.

INTERVIEW BY CHARLES HOMANS | MARCH 22, 2011

In 2005, Stewart Brand, then four decades into his career as a countercultural gadfly, environmental thinker, and futurist, published an attention-grabbing essay in MIT Technology Review called "Environmental Heresies." Brand argued that in order to achieve the aims of ecological sustainability that he had advocated in the Whole Earth Catalog, the hippie omnium gatherum and Boomer cultural touchstone Brand began publishing in 1968, environmentalists would have to rethink a number of their core beliefs -- including the movement's historic aversion to nuclear power.

In his subsequent book, Whole Earth Discipline: An Ecopragmatist Manifesto, and numerous speeches, Brand has become one of nuclear energy's most vocal advocates in the United States. He spoke with Foreign Policy's Charles Homans about why Japan's Fukushima disaster hasn't changed that.

Foreign Policy: Japan's Fukushima power plant, after coming terrifyingly close to a meltdown, is still not out of the woods. Governments, including in the United States, are taking a hard look at their own plants. But you're as bullish on nuclear as you ever were.

Stewart Brand: That's correct.

FP: Why is that?

SB: What hasn't changed is climate vulnerability and growing economic needs, especially in the developing world for clean, base-load electricity. And we're learning some important new stuff on levels of safety under exceptional duress, which is what happened in Japan. I expect there will be a fair amount of review of safety procedures, equipment, training, and whatnot. And this will be an experience in the industry that everybody will be learning from, much as Three Mile Island was and to some extent Chernobyl was.

The main event, the century-size problem we're looking at, is climate change. But frankly, if climate were not an issue by now, I would still be saying we need to go nuclear because it is the alternative to coal -- and coal is all by itself such very large-scale, long-term bad news. Billions of people are getting out of poverty in the developing world. For that to go forward, one of the needs and demands they all have is for more electricity. So on those grounds alone I think there is a reason to proceed with nuclear.

FP: Why go nuclear? Why not go with wind farms, or solar, or hydropower?

SB: Hydropower is good. Hydropower is pretty maxed out, but obviously China is still building a lot more dams so those will go forward. Wind power is pretty good. It uses up a lot terrain and so far it is still an inconstant source. Solar, solar thermal, is looking good compared to photovoltaic, which is terrific on roofs and for very local usage like that. The major large-scale use of solar that looks promising right now is solar thermal in places like North Africa where you have a mineral desert where you really don't care if a lot of it is covered with mirrors.

But people have been expecting a Moore's Law for solar, and self-accelerating technologies do not apply so far in energy technology. Solar panels get better, but really, really slowly. Likewise, wind basically got better by getting bigger. Nuclear was unusual in that it was a real step-function change in energy efficiency, similar to moving from burning wood to run civilization to burning coal, and later oil. It took a lot of engineering nuance to get them to really work, but once you did that, you didn't look back. Nuclear is that category of jump. We keep looking for more of those jumps, but they're all incremental.

I think one of the main reasons why nuclear will keep going forward is because there will be a lot of emphasis on new reactor designs: both the stuff we already know about that is way better than the old reactors -- those being used in Japan -- and new, small, modular reactors that are safer for various reasons. One of the things that the new focus on safety will give us is reasons to upgrade old reactors and to be sure that new reactors have built-in levels of safety that we now know is even more important than we thought.

JAROMIR KUBES/AFP/Getty Images

 

Stewart Brand is the president of the Long Now Foundation and author, most recently, of Whole Earth Discipline: An Ecopragmatist Manifesto. Charles Homans is an associate editor at Foreign Policy.

TETRAMAN

12:02 AM ET

March 23, 2011

Thorium reactors !

We need newer, safer and fuel efficient reactors and one such reactors and one such reactor shall lead the way, the Liquid Floride Thorium Reactors.
Find out more here http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/2/

 

TETRAMAN

12:02 AM ET

March 23, 2011

Thorium reactors !

We need newer, safer and fuel efficient reactors and one such reactors and one such reactor shall lead the way, the Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors.
Find out more here http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/2/

 

TETRAMAN

12:02 AM ET

March 23, 2011

Thorium reactors !

We need newer, safer and fuel efficient reactors and one such reactors and one such reactor shall lead the way, the Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors.
Find out more here http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/2/

 

DR. SARDONICUS

8:32 PM ET

March 23, 2011

The status-quo and its pet extinction event

First we had a plague of swear-to-God collage edjycated flat-Earthers parroting to us that man-made global warming was a hallucination suffered by the entire rest of the scientific community. Numerous, exasperating, strident, insanely (or scripted) consistent, and munificently paid to serial lie to us. You can’t browse a global climate article anywhere on the Net without subjecting yourself to their stupid first, second and third entries in the comments section.

Then we had a bunch of ex-Bolsheviks and Johnson ex-liberals (that combination alone should have warned us) turned mouth-foaming reactionaries, instruct us how to dispose of the rest of the world – ignore them or invade them or garrison them preemptively. Remember all the flagship newspaper editorials on Freedom Fries? Made one proud to be literate…

Look where that got us.

Now we have an ex-Green weenie turned corporate shill dishing out the standard Party Line and straw man argument: you can have Nukes or you can have Coal or you can have Both but nothing else. There is no other option. Trust us.

We could have an up-and-running Thorium reactor inside three years and (if that worked) a thousand of them operational in thirty. Provided we engaged in a development and construction program of more safe, secure and clean reactors on a crash basis. You know, the kind of program we run when a real existential threat is looming; as opposed to the wars-of-corporate-convenience and old-man-virility we engage in these days.

The one thing the powers-that-be are allergic to is a crash response to a situation publicly declared a crisis. “Have no fear; let the status-quo prevail instead! Just give us gobs more cash and publicly funded liability and loan guarantees to broaden the scope of the planetary disaster we’ve already engineered. Thank you, thank you very much. Now, go back to sleep, there’s a good consumer.”

Let the deep pockets go belly up with their insane, all-in investment in deadly toxic technologies. They got us into this mess; now it’s time for them to stage a graceful retirement from responsibilities they have so obviously betrayed.

This is going to entail a Madison Avenue/financial and Ivy League/technological collapse. What, again? How many times does that make?

Either that or a planetary extinction event (nuke and coal aggravated). Take your pick.

 

RETURN TO EDEN

2:23 AM ET

March 24, 2011

Stewart Brand and Nuclear Power

Japan, one of the world's most technologically-advanced nations, has been incapable of stemming the radiation leaks from the damaged reactors at Fukoshima, this almost 2 weeks after the tsunami wiped out the plant's electrical cooling system! Furthermore, none of the other nuclear superpowers, including the United States and France, have yet been able to help come up with a technological solution for this situation. In the face of such impotence, Stewart Brand, is it not be perverse, hugely irresponsible and callous to still claim that nuclear technology is safe and the best option for our planet?

The situation in Japan is a tragedy of untold proportions and could even get worse unless the runaway heating of the reactors is brought under control. It is increasingly obvious that nuclear technology has a LONG way to go before it can be demonstrated safe. Obviously, the nuclear waste problem is still unresolved. And closer to home, nuclear plants off the coast of California could be vulnerable as they are located in an area of significant seismic activity, and, as those of Fukoshima, keep spent nuclear fuel in water-cooled, potentially vulnerable containment vessels...and of even greater concern, the surrounding areas are home to millions of people, rather than the tens of thousands in the affected areas of Japan.

We need to get over our suicidal belief that we should wait for a technological fix for the problems confronting us in this 'modern age'. We have to face the reality that we have brought them on ourselves - they stem from our greed, addiction to technology and overconsumption of energy. The solution lies not in gambling with nuclear and fossil fuel-dependent technology but in re-learning to live sustainably and in harmony with the earth - that is the true green solution, has many precedents (both past and present), and is the only viable option for our planet. Our survival is at stake - let's hope we learn that essential lesson before it is too late.

 

CDETRIO

9:31 PM ET

March 27, 2011

Brand overlooks solar

Stewart Brand's argments are not convincing. He touts nuclear technological progress like modular reactors and maybe thorium, but overlooks the progress in solar.

MIT chemist Daniel Nocera lays out why solar is better, and explains how the technological and economic challenges to widespread solar are being overcome. I find Nocera's reasoning both more convincing and more neutral.

Axiom Capital analyst Gordon Johnson is quoted as bearish on solar after the Fukushima disaster, because the sun doesn't shine 24 hours. Someone tell these old dogs about Nocera's solar water splitters and hydrogen fuel cells that will attach to any PV panel. They seem as realistic as anything else, but better and cheaper. I would hope to see these before any new nuke plants.

 

ELECTRICAL ENGINEER

3:07 PM ET

March 29, 2011

Solar and wind don't melt down

Solar doesn't need a desert. Germany, a poorer place for solar than the US, has installed 10,000 MW of solar panels, and installed 3800 MW in 2009 alone. (I'm sure the US could install 5000 MW a year if we wanted to.)
http://www.seia.org/cs/news_detail?pressrelease.id=342

Nuclear's not that much cheaper than coal. Sure, the fuel amount is small, but expensive. Even the World Nuclear Association admits on its website http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf02.html
“total fuel costs of a nuclear power plant in the OECD are typically about a third of those for a coal-fired plant” Plus we buy half our uranium from Russia, and additional amounts from Canada and Australia.

Solar will always be cheaper than nuclear in the future, and may be already:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=historic-report-solar-energy-costs-2010-08

Solar and wind could supply all the power we need. See “Energy Storage Methods” in the wikipedia article on Solar Power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power.

The technology to run cars even exists:
http://www.americanhydrogenassociation.org/
We could build hydrogen fuel transportation, storage and refuelling stations (just like was done for gasoline almost a hundred years ago) if we weren't throwing billions in our tax dollars down poisonous rathole for nuclear and fossil corporate profits.

Bottom line for me: nuclear is not worth the risk of accident, terrorism, or waste forever, at any price. That stuff can't be cleaned up once it's loose in the environment; see Helen Caldicott for the health risks of nuclear. Since a nuclear plant costs a lot more to build than a coal plant, a lot of emission-scrubbing could be added before the coal plant would cost as much to build as a nuclear plant. I'd rather risk having a warmer world than the damage to the economy of land lost forever to contamination.

 

AMADEUS1964

11:10 AM ET

April 18, 2011

It is increasingly obvious

It is increasingly obvious that nuclear technology has a LONG way to go before it can be demonstrated safe. Obviously, the nuclear waste problem is still unresolved. And sazky closer to home, nuclear plants off the coast of California could be vulnerable as they are located in an area of significant seismic activity, and, as those of Fukoshima, keep spent nuclear fuel in water-cooled, potentially vulnerable containment vessels...and of even greater concern, the surrounding areas are home to millions of people, rather than the tens of thousands in the affected areas of Japan.We need to get over our suicidal belief that we should wait for a technological fix for the problems confronting us in this 'modern age'. We have to face the reality that we have brought them on ourselves - they stem from our greed, addiction to technology and overconsumption of energy.

 

MICHAIL KOS

2:23 PM ET

April 19, 2011

Furthermore, none of the

Furthermore, none of the other nuclear superpowers, including the United States and France, have yet been able to help come up with a technological solution for this situation. In the face of such impotence, Stewart Brand, is it not be perverse, sazeni hugely irresponsible and callous to still claim that nuclear technology is safe and the best option for our planet?The situation in Japan is a tragedy of untold proportions and could even get worse unless the runaway heating of the reactors is brought under control. It is increasingly obvious that nuclear technology has a long way to go before it can be demonstrated safe. Obviously, the nuclear waste problem is still unresolved. And closer to home, nuclear plants off the coast of California could be vulnerable as they are located in an area of significant seismic activity, and, as those of Fukoshima, keep spent nuclear fuel in water-cooled, potentially vulnerable containment vessels...and of even greater concern, the surrounding areas are home to millions of people, rather than the tens of thousands in the affected areas of Japan.