The Hard Part

What happens if the Libyan rebels actually win?

BY JAMES TRAUB | MARCH 25, 2011

You may recall the last time the United States and its allies used military force to overthrow a hated Arab dictator. The resulting vacuum was quickly filled by anarchic looting, murderous rivalries and, ultimately, civil war. The blitheness of President George W. Bush's administration towards post-war Iraq was quite possibly the most inexcusable blunder in the history of American foreign policy. It's a mistake we wouldn't want to make again. That's why Lisa Anderson, one of the very few American scholarly experts on modern Libya and president of American University in Cairo, recently wrote that "Any military and diplomatic intervention that will bring an end to the Qaddafi regime should be accompanied, from the beginning, by mobilization of the resources for political reconstruction."

That does sound like a good idea. But it's not happening. A senior official in President Barack Obama's administration says that the situation in Libya is "much too fluid," and the identity of the rebel leadership much too uncertain, to permit serious planning about a post-Muammar al-Qaddafi world, should the rebels actually seize power. The White House is, to be fair, a bit preoccupied, what with organizing the no-fly zone, trying to stave off chaos in Yemen and Bahrain, and attempting to assist a soft landing in Egypt and Tunisia. Most of those countries, as this official says, are of greater strategic significance to the United States than Libya is. And there is, of course, the all too real possibility that the military intervention will produce a stalemate rather than a decisive rebel victory, in which case any such planning would be moot.

The good news is that Libya is not Iraq. The country's tribal divisions should not prove as insuperable an obstacle to national unity as Iraq's Shia-Sunni-Kurd divide. And should the rebels somehow overthrow Qaddafi, they will have the legitimacy which comes of winning an insurgency, as the Iraqis placed on the throne by U.S. power did not.

But one of the fundamental lessons of Iraq is that things will be worse than you think. Not only does war unleash all manner of latent enmity and violence, but decades of abusive treatment by a ruthless dictators fuels pathologies that only fully manifest themselves when the lid of control pops off. Pro- and anti-Qaddafi tribes could square off against one another; Qaddafi could unleash the jihadists he once trained to wreak violence both at home and abroad. So you wouldn't want to bet on a happy outcome in Libya -- you'd want to do whatever you could to help deliver one. And it behooves those of us who have argued for the intervention now under way to give serious thought to what form that help should take.

The United States will not be the occupying power in Libya as it was in Iraq, and thus will have far less leverage, and far less responsibility. The Libyans will be calling the shots. But thanks to Qaddafi's malevolently whimsical vision of a nation without a state or state institutions, whoever inherits the country will need an enormous amount of outside help.

Larry Diamond, a Stanford scholar who served with the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq and was a leading advocate for intervention in Libya, says that the most directly relevant lesson of Iraq -- and of Afghanistan, for that matter -- is "security trumps everything." People won't accept a new political order if they may pay with their lives for doing so. It's impossible to know right now where those threats may come from. But since Libya will have no foreign troops to stop looting or score-settling, the United States or others will have to train Libyan forces in what Diamond calls "democratic policing."

ARIS MESSINIS/AFP/Getty Images

 

James Traub is a contributing writer for the New York Times Magazine and author of, most recently, The Freedom Agenda. "Terms of Engagement," his column for ForeignPolicy.com, runs weekly.

JEFF

9:35 PM ET

March 25, 2011

Can the Palestinian Authority help?

The Palestinian Authority has done a reasonably good job building state institutions and enjoy broad credibility in the Arab world.

Is it possible for outsiders to facilitate PA officials working on "democracy training" and other capacity building activities in Libya (or elsewhere)? The situations are radically different and the PA technocrats don't have much free time on their hands, but they would get a significant boost of prestige at home for their efforts. Plus, Arabs would be far less suspicious of PA officials than western "experts".

 

GRANT

5:00 AM ET

March 26, 2011

I'm not so sure that the

I'm not so sure that the Palestinian Authority is the best option given it's inability to even hold both Palestinian lands and provide more efficient services than Hamas. Turkey may or may not be a possibility depending on both circumstances in Libya and Turkey's willingness.

 

JEAN KAPENDA

3:00 PM ET

March 27, 2011

It's All About Building Societies Respectful of Human Rights!

Democracy training, capacity building, etc., I've heard those words before and they're part of the equation whose sum must be equal to a new Libya free from the bondage of tyranny. I have spent the last 50 years living in dictatorships, democracy, emerging democracies, and in a republic, and I can tell that human rights will be fully guaranteed if the building of a republic is the ultimate goal of revolutions. A republic (which I often call "democracy elevated") is a protective shield, where ALL freedoms and rights (of men and women equally, and of all tribes and nationalities) are protected against abuses by national and local leaders, a political system that is deterrent to the rise of tyranny and extremism, a system where order is abided to by individual commitment rather than the result of tyranny or religious enforcement. The revolutions of the 20th century led to either tyranny (see Cuba, Russia, and most of Africa) or electoral democracy (easily usurped by dictators who become dictocrats and other thieves and criminals turned politicians!). Africans must NEVER be satisfied with the mere ouster of a tyrant. It is their collective responsibility to build republican institutions in order to immunize the system against the rise of future despots. Foreigners can assist with financial resources, training, capacity building, etc., but if Africans are not committed to building societies respectful of human rights, the equation BEFORE TYRANNY = AFTER TYRANNY will remain valid not only in today's Rwanda, Uganda, Ivory Coast, and Zimbabwe, but also anywhere in Africa!

 

YES WE CAN

2:50 PM ET

March 26, 2011

LIBYA WOULD BE LIKE CONGO RDC.

REPORT BY Judith Wanga
PART 1: youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_yjbMz9OI
PART 2: youtube.com/watch?v=w29a9GqjoSY&feature=related
PART 3: youtube.com/watch?v=DvP78aCl-9g&feature=related
PART 4: youtube.com/watch?v=aQG7AHRJ6h4&feature=related

REPORT BY Ross Kemp
PART 1: youtube.com/watch?v=WKG9kJeLxP8
PART 2: youtube.com/watch?v=1LtwvP8hKM8&feature=related
PART 3: youtube.com/watch?v=IAeCBIfmBfs&feature=related

 

VALWAYNE

6:29 PM ET

March 26, 2011

Al-Qaeda in Control of Lybia?

We are now learning and confirming that the rebels that Obama has launched and unauthorized war to protect have links or are actualy members of Al-Qaeda? And that many of them actually have fought in Iraq killing American soldiers. And that Al-Qaeda is using the fight to arm itself with military level arms? What has Obama done? What is Obama doing? Does Obama really want us to believe that we and Libya will be better off with Libya as an Al-Qaeda Terror State? Can this really be what Obama is spending tens of billions of dollars and risking American lives to accomplish? What has he done????

 

JUAN67

11:58 PM ET

March 26, 2011

Something many in the US

Something many in the US don't know that the US already have put one of their men on control in Libya , Khlifa Hafter is leading the rebel's armed forces now in Libya , he lived in the US for the last 22 years , he was a general in Qaddafi's army who fled to the US after turning against the regime during the war with Libya's southern neighbour Chad.

 

GORDO99

9:21 PM ET

March 26, 2011

A Fiasco

General Petraeus asked, "How do we get out." No one in the Obama Administration has asked or answered that question. If the rebels win, then what, and who are they? Nation building in a tribal society with no institutions is a bridge too far. This fiasco is not likely to end well.

 

VERBATIM

10:53 PM ET

March 27, 2011

The Hardest Part

What happens if the Libyans, rebels and others, are given some credit and trusted with sorting out their own problems?
The hardest part is to provide just enough help without being presumptuous and overbearing.
Why not try for a change a hands off approach. Wouldn't it be nice if our "Experts" and "Students of History" could see their way clear to mind their own business?

 

ALEXWEIR1949

12:21 PM ET

March 28, 2011

Libya - avoiding the morass

The Libyan situation runs a very high probability of becoming another 7-year Iraq or another 10-year Afghanistan. The military – who are good at waging war but lacking sufficient intellect and motivation to conduct politics and/or to wage a peace – tend to take control. The politicians are relieved, since they themselves have no answer and no vision on how to resolve the problem they are in. So the situation lurches on, with economic, social, political and psychological consequences….

Gaddafi obviously has backing from a few Libyans – we know this from TV and Video clips. Whether this is 1-3-5-7 or what percentage of the total Libyan population and/or voters we do not know. Neither does Gaddafi himself, since he has not run elections since 40 years. One thing we do know – it is most definitely not 51 or even 49% of the population or the electorate. If he is lucky it will reach 10%, and most of them will be through financial inducement or fear of recrimination.

The way out of the present expensive impasse is clearly an election. But this will not be any ordinary election – it will be an election in a war zone or conflict zone, and it must be Fraud-Free. This will be difficult it not impossible using conventional voting technology.

Dont worry – I have the solution. 4 years ago I developed a Fraud Proof Voting System specially designed for Zimbabwean or Nigerian conditions (http://cd3wd.com/seev/index.htm ) – this also happens to be ideal for conflict zones.

The problem is that – for their own reasons (to do with the number and ratio of pro-western dictators to anti-western dictators), the West/International Community does NOT like either my system or even the whole general concept. Strange, coming from those who shout ‘Democracy’ from the rooftops….

The paradox is now that the cats are firmly out of the bag. The West up till now has opposed FPV (Fraud Proof Voting) on the basis that it would eliminate their financially-advantageous Western-friendly benevolent (?!) dictators throughout the Third World and Middle East. However, these Western-friendly, so-called benevolent dictators are now exposed as being non-benevolent, and are falling like flies. Therefore it is actually now in the West’s interest to prevent any crazy guys/extremists of whatever hue (including Islamic Fundamentalists) getting into power and/or staying in power after their sell-by-date by foul means (i.e. electoral fraud).

Since we put a man on the moon in 1969, if anyone really doubts that my system or a version of it does not cut the mustard, then get a collection of bright people together of the various industry sectors required (software, elections, management consultants, thinkers etc) and hammer out something which would work – simple!

I am in London and am immediately available for free-of-charge presentation and discussion.

Alex Weir, London, Harare and Gaborone

 

9 VOLT

12:55 PM ET

March 28, 2011

Gaddafi's Money "Up For Grabs" - NY POST

Why is so little thought being given to the huge amount of money , 30 billion in the US alone, being frozen in Gaddafi's bank accounts? Isn't it obvious that this sort of seizure of funds from an autocrat who will soon be history gives a perfect opportunity for theft by bankers, government officials and anyone else in a suitable position.

Public statements about these huge amounts of money being saved for the "Libyan people" will do nothing to stop a few million here and there being skimmed. Regular Americans will remain oblivious. And next time there is a a sudden rush to overthrow an autocrat by military intervention I'll be asking myself whether the flames aren't being stoked by people in the financial and government sectors who will help themselves to the spoils.

 

HURRICANEWARNING

1:23 PM ET

March 28, 2011

Oh...my...god... Why are we

Oh...my...god...

Why are we in Libya??? Im serious. Sure, it feels good. And it certainly is morally right. I mean, at least we have good intentions...ah, but the road to hell, it's paved with them.

Here's what we should do after committing SF ground troops (which we have) and airpower (which we have). Nothing. We should leave. If Libya needs a nation-builder, let France handle it. Let Britain deal with it. We dont have the money to nationbuild again, we dont have the patience to nationbuild again, and we shouldnt ever want to nationbuild again. Have we learned nothing. Libya shouldnt be what we want it to be...it should be whatever it's going to be. Let the Libyan people handle it. If they vote in AQ leadership...the response is simpler and cheaper...we bomb them back into the stone age and create a nice new Afghanistan that can sit and rot until we can deal with our financial issues. There are no good solutions. But we CAN deal with reality. And reality dictates that we exit Libya as fast as possible.

 

JAYDEE001

2:21 PM ET

March 28, 2011

This article demonstrates the

This article demonstrates the 'slippery slope' principle - or maybe the pottery barn concept.

Once the west commits to intervention in the affairs of a foreign country, no matter how compelling the justification, we are tempted to go the next steps:
- pick the winners - if possible democratic leaders who believe in human rights, and/or
- help them organize a civil society that protects and promotes democracy and human rights

Witness this comment from the article above: "What is not worth debating is whether, having decided to intervene in Libya, the international community has both an obligation to prepare for the post-conflict situation and the capacity to do something about it."

Why should we not debate it? Why not decide what exactly our obligation as members of the "international community" is, and why not do that before we intervene? Our lives and our history might have been far better had we done so in the past, before committing our military power and prestige in so many conflicts.

 

GLENANTON

8:45 AM ET

April 16, 2011

The Libyan situation runs a

The Libyan situation runs a very high probability of becoming another 7-year Iraq or another 10-year Afghanistan. Reiki The military – who are good at waging war but lacking sufficient intellect and motivation to conduct politics and/or to wage a peace – tend to take control.

 

EVA DRABIK

5:49 AM ET

April 24, 2011

I can tell that human rights

I can tell that human rights will be fully guaranteed if the building of a republic is the ultimate goal of revolutions. A republic (which I often call "democracy elevated") is a protective shield, where ALL freedoms and rights (of men and women equally, and of all tribes and nationalities) are protected against abuses sazky by national and local leaders, a political system that is deterrent to the rise of tyranny and extremism, a system where order is abided to by individual commitment rather than the result of tyranny or religious enforcement. The revolutions of the 20th century led to either tyranny (see Cuba, Russia, and most of Africa) or electoral democracy (easily usurped by dictators who become dictocrats and other thieves and criminals turned politicians!).