Whiff of Desperation

It is an ambassador's job to burnish his government's image; fidelity to the usual canons of logic and evidence are neither required nor expected. It is therefore unsurprising that Michael Oren's portrait of Israel as America's "ultimate ally" is a one-sided distortion of reality.

The Ultimate Ally
By Michael Oren

Friends Forever?
By Jeffrey Goldberg

Our Kind of Realism
By Aluf Benn

The Long View
By Robert Satloff

The main targets of Oren's hasbara -- Hebrew for public diplomacy -- are some unnamed "realists," meaning anyone who questions the net benefits of America's so-called "special relationship" with Israel. All of the realists I know support Israel's existence and do not deny that the United States derives some modest benefits from its ties with the Jewish state. However, they point out that many of these benefits (e.g., trade, scientific exchange, etc.) do not require a "special relationship" -- one in which Israel gets extensive and unconditional economic, military, and diplomatic support -- and they maintain that the costs of the current "special relationship" outweigh the benefits. Unconditional U.S. support has also facilitated policies -- most notably settlement building -- that have undermined Israel's global standing and placed its long-term future in jeopardy. Accordingly, realists believe that a more normal relationship would be better for the United States and Israel alike.

Not surprisingly, Oren would prefer that the United States continue backing Israel to the hilt no matter what it does. His first line of argument is the odd suggestion that Americans have been Zionists ever since the Founding Fathers (i.e., even before modern Zionism existed). Some early U.S. leaders did have biblically inspired notions about "returning Jews to the Holy Land," but that fact tells us nothing about the proper relationship between the United States and Israel today. America's Founding Fathers also opposed colonialism, for example, so one might just as easily argue that they would oppose Israel's occupation of the West Bank and support the Palestinians' efforts to secure their own independence. George Washington also warned Americans to avoid "passionate attachments" to any foreign nations, in good part because he believed it would distort U.S. domestic politics and provide avenues for foreign influence. Thus, Oren's highly selective reading of past U.S. history offers little grounds for unconditional support today.

Oren's second line of argument is the familiar claim that the United States and Israel share identical "democratic values." Yet this argument cannot explain why the United States gives Israel so much support, and gives it unconditionally. After all, there are many democracies in the world, but none has a special relationship with the United States like Israel does.

It is true that both states are formally democratic, but there are also fundamental differences between the two countries. The United States is a liberal democracy, where people of any race, religion, or ethnicity are supposed to enjoy equal rights. Israel, by contrast, was explicitly founded as a Jewish state, and non-Jews in Israel are second-class citizens both de jure and de facto. To take but one example, Palestinians who marry Israeli Jews are not permitted to become citizens of Israel themselves. This may make sense given Israel's self-definition, but it is wholly at odds with deep-rooted American values.

Just as importantly, Israel's democratic status is undermined by its imposition of a legal, administrative, and military regime in the occupied territories that denies the Palestinians there basic human rights, as well as by its prolonged, government-backed effort to colonize these conquered lands with Jewish settlers. Like all colonial enterprises, maintaining Israeli control of the occupied territories depends on heavy-handed coercion. Such behavior is at odds with core American values -- as U.S. administrations of both parties have said repeatedly, if not forcefully enough.

Oren's third line of argument is that Israel is a unique strategic asset, implying that unconditional support for Israel makes Americans safer at home. For example, he claims that Israel maintains stability in the eastern Mediterranean. But that is not true. Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 made the region less stable and led directly to the creation of Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite militia. The United States eventually had to send troops into Lebanon because Israel had created such a mess, and that decision led to a suicide attack on the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut in which 241 American servicemen died. Similarly, Israel's assault on Lebanon in 2006 killed more than a thousand Lebanese (many of them civilians), inflicted billions of dollars of property damage, undermined the U.S.-backed "Cedar Revolution," and enhanced Hezbollah's political influence within Lebanon. Finally, Israeli control of the occupied territories led directly to the first and second intifadas and the brutal 2008-2009 war on Gaza -- all of which created enormous popular blowback in the region. None of these events were in America's strategic interest, and they belie the claim that Israel is somehow bringing "stability" to the region.

Israel's limited strategic value is further underscored by its inability to contribute to a more crucial U.S. interest: access to oil in the Persian Gulf. Israel could not help preserve American access to oil after the Shah of Iran fell in 1979, so the United States had to create its own Rapid Deployment Force, which could not operate out of Israel. When the U.S. Navy was busy escorting oil tankers during the Iran-Iraq War, Israel did nothing to help, and it remained on the sidelines in the 1991 Gulf War as well. In fact, after Saddam Hussein fired Scud missiles at Israel in a failed attempt to provoke it into joining the war and disrupting the Gulf War coalition, the United States had to divert military assets from that fight in order to protect Israel. As historian Bernard Lewis (a strong supporter of Israel) remarked afterward, "The change [in Israel's strategic value] was clearly manifested in the Gulf War.... Israel was not an asset, but an irrelevance -- some even said a nuisance."

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MARKTHOMASON

8:09 PM ET

April 25, 2011

Well done

Thank you. This was very well done.

AVILLA

8:47 PM ET

Interesting...

...that on the main page it lists the Walt, Goldberg, Benn, and Satloff articles as "rebuttals", yet this is the only actual rebuttal of the good ambassador's rant. Hmmm.

I agree with this article, save for one thing: "Such behavior is at odds with core American values". Do you really believe that? I'm not even talking about the way America itself was founded--I'm talking about the fact that virtually all of the American right and some of the moderates believe that the more land Israel colonizes, the better (because that's less land that can be controlled by Evil Muslims). It may be at odds with liberal American values, or, shall we say, non-demented American values, but I am not convinced that most Americans see the colonization of the West Bank as "un-American". The most recent poll I can find on the issue is from Rasmussen, which states that only 49% of Americans "believe Israel should be required to stop building settlements". Not an enormous number.

NEOLEFT

11:44 PM ET

April 26, 2011

USMARINE85 singing straight from the Likud songbook

>> The veneration of terrorists says something unsettling about Palestinian society.

USMARINE85 has apparently never heard of Menachen Begin Park and apparently completely unaware that not only did Israel elect 2 terrorist leaders to the office of Prime Minister, but that in 2006, Israel CELEBRATED the 60th anniversary of a terrorist attack in it's name.

I believe that Netenyahu attended the festivities where a plaque was unveiled, honouring the terrorists who perpetrated the attack.

>> But for Palestinians, that disaster has only been compounded by an Arab intransigence and belligerence that has played into Israel's territorial ambitions, particularly the annexation of East Jerusalem.

In other words, USMARINE85 admits that Israel planned all along to steal the land from the Palestinians, but blames the Palestinians for giving the Israelis the causus belli to carry it out.

>> The adulation of Dalal Mughrabi and other terrorists is bound to give your average Israeli parent a certain pause: Is this the state we want next to us? Didn't pulling out of Gaza produce a steady drizzle of rockets and, in due course, another war?

No. pulling out of Gaza, and firing 7,700 shells over 10 months is what produced a steady drizzle of rockets.

>> In fact, the determination in the West, particularly Europe, not to hold Palestinians morally accountable for terrorism -- as well as their commonplace anti-Semitism -- is a repugnant form of neocolonial mentality in which, once again, the Palestinians are being patronized.

Amazing. According to USMARINE85, the failure of the West to hold those resisting the Zionist colonialists in Palestine to account is a form of neocolonialism. That's a bit like saying that the failure to condemn anti terrorist activities is a form of terrorism.

>> I dare say the Brits would have reacted differently if a square in Belfast had been named for some IRA terrorist.

This has to go down as USMARINE85's truly senior moment. Is this what you had in mind
USMARINE85?

British anger at terror celebration
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece

Thanks for the comic relief.

AHMEDWALID

10:39 AM ET

April 27, 2011

pulling out of gaza produced 7.700 rockets?

yes that is correct. That is precisely what is wrong with my brethren in gaza. They took a chance to build something great once the Israelis left, and squandered it. The gaza palestinians are too filled with hate and irrational belief in genocide against the Jews to make their own life ok.

6:28 PM ET

Your bretheren AHMEDWALID?

How can that be? The people in Gaza are not right wing ethnocentric supermacists.

You're as much a brotehr of the Gazan's and USMARIME85 is a marine.

>>That is precisely what is wrong with my brethren in gaza.

So it was the Gazan's fault that:

"After Israel withdrew it's forces from Gaza, in August 2005, the ruined territory was not released for even a single day from Israel's military grip, or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay every day."

It was the Gazan's fault that:

"Israel left behind scotched earth, devastated services, and people with nearly a present or a future."

And it was the Gazan's fault that:

"The Jewish settlements were destroyed in an ungenerous move by an unenlightened occupier, which in fact continues to control the territory and kill and harass it's inhabitants, by means of it's formidable military might."

But hey, according to you, their ahem..."brother", it's the Gaza Palestinians that are filled with hate and irrational belief in genocide.

Got it.

JBENHAM

9:29 PM ET

Knock out blow Walt. Nicely

Knock out blow Walt. Nicely done.

ORMONDOTVOS

7:03 PM ET

Hasbara Marine

Perfect score on the Points to Be Sure to Make checklist.

12:05 AM ET

What made you want to be a pretend marine USMARINE85?

>> By the way Walt's history is totally wrong. US was totally against Colonialism? Haha yeah when it applied to ourselves.

Great, so that justifies Israel’s modern version of colonialism and Jie Crow racism.

>> Though, taking land and ethnically cleansing the native americans, that was alright. Or counting slaves as 3/5ths a man. That was also alright.

That was also centuries ago and unlike Israel, the West has agreed that such policies are not only cruel and inhumane, but illegal. In fact, the world went to war in the 1940's to put an end to it.

>> Israel now has trained US servicemembers, like myself, in urban warfare and how to fight in muslim urban enviornments. They also helped us with IEDs.

Like yourself? You've never beee in the marines.

>> And during the Iran-Iraq war, Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor, something we can all be happy for now.

On the contrary. While Israel thought it was some kind fo coup,. It was an incredibly stupid move on Israel's part.

1.the rector was a French built civilian reactor
2.The Osirak reactor was designed by the French to be poorly suited for plutonium production, hence it served no purpose for making nukes.
3.Contrary to popular myth, the Israeli bombing of Saddam Hussein's Osiraq reactor in 1981 did not stop Iraq's nuclear weapons program. In fact, it may well have started or greatly expanded it, according to Iraqi nuclear scientists who have written on that episode.

>> Israel invaded lebanon in '82. Before that Lebanon had been in civil war for 7 years. The whole country fell apart in 1975 when it erupted into civil war. I guess Walt forgets basic facts and history.

And Israel's invasion (based on a false premise), while killed 15,000-20,000 people made it all better right?

>> You shill out the Arab line for the millions in grant money the Saudis pay to your department at Harvard.

We're still waiting for the evidence of this slander

DMOLONEY

6:22 AM ET

"Though, taking land and

"Though, taking land and ethnically cleansing the native americans, that was alright."

Yet again "usmarine" will jump at the oppertunity to attack "his country", very interesting.

SCOTT83

6:04 AM ET

A Fantasist in an Age of Fantasy

Walt demonstrates once again that he is yet another Fantasist in an Age of Fantasy.

Like many other self-styled "realists" he no doubt sees his Fantasy world rapidly crumbling.

The vaunted "Arab Street" is revolting from Triploli to Syria and, Huge Shock, it turns out that for Arabs outside of the Palestinian Territories the issue of Palestine is something like number 5,973 on their list of concerns.

Like Baker and Scowcroft and the rest of the architects of the US' insane middle east policies, Walt has been goading everyone in earshot to dump Israel as a strategic liability lest the "Arab Street" revolt.

Apparently, we were supposed to believe that the Arab Street was some altruistic uber-culture in which Arabs from all walks of life selflessly toil for the better of the Palestinians.

Well, the fabled "Arab Street" is now in full revolt and, in what should come as a shock to no one with common sense, the object of their ire was not the nuances of US Foreign Policy but their own corrupt governments, the lack of jobs, the lack of food, etc...

This is what we plebes without the benefit of a Harvard education call Normal Human Behavior.

Normal Human Behavior dictates that disparate populations with the most tenuous connections (i.e. the "Arab Street") do not think en mass and, more obviously, do not risk their necks (or any other body part) on behalf of some 6th cousin living 1000 miles away.

Astoundingly, as scores of Syrian Arabs now go their without a peep about Israel or Foggy Bottom, Walt persists in trying to sell the same used car yet again.

Then again, why shouldn't he?.

Walt has already made a nice little pile for himself turning FP into the Jerry Springer show, compete with canned villains, victims, and do-rights.

No point in spoiling a good show, eh?

12:16 AM ET

SCOTT83 fanaticising about Walt's demise

>> Like many other self-styled "realists" he no doubt sees his Fantasy world rapidly crumbling.

Like so many self-styled hasbara trolls who've been predicting this demise for 5 years, you too are wrong.

>> it turns out that for Arabs outside of the Palestinian Territories the issue of Palestine is something like number 5,973 on their list of concerns.

Obviously the hundreds of thousands of Egyptians in Tahrir Square, chanting that they would liberate Jerusalem, didn't get that memo.

Nor did the majority of Egypt's population who want to terminate Egypt's treaty with Israel.

>> Walt has been goading everyone in earshot to dump Israel as a strategic liability lest the "Arab Street" revolt.

Nice try, but completely false. The Arab revolt is a rejection of US policies that Walt has long criticized, but don't let the facts get in the way of a perfectly good ad hominem.

>> Well, the fabled "Arab Street" is now in full revolt and, in what should come as a shock to no one with common sense, the object of their ire was not the nuances of US Foreign Policy but their own corrupt governments, the lack of jobs, the lack of food, etc...

Ummm, I don't know how to break it to you, but those corrupt governments are/were US sponsored dictators, so yes, it the revolt has indeed been against the nuances of US Foreign Policy. After all, it was US tear gas and bullets being fired in Egypt, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.

>> Normal Human Behavior dictates that disparate populations with the most tenuous connections do not think en mass and, more obviously, do not risk their necks (or any other body part) on behalf of some 6th cousin living 1000 miles away.

Really? So how does that explain the strong support for Israel in the US, which is many thousands of miles away?

Oooops.

5:09 PM ET

April 30, 2011

A Perfectly Good ad hominem

Yes, a perfectly good ad hominem in deed.

Walt's obsession with Jews and the insipid Israel Lobby cottage industry that he has grown around it do not simply invite ad hominem attacks, they demand it.

There was only one mistake in my post above, and that was my decision to post it.

As with any paranoid rant, Walt's glossy re-packing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, doesn't warrant being argued on the merits of it's content/rant.

Attempting to make a substantive analysis of Walt's writing is about as possible as a substantive analysis of The Turner Diaries.

While Walt's tiresome screeching about Jews reeks as much of marketing ploy as it does paranoia, it shares The Turner Diaries status of being a book that is not about a rational argument but about one man's mental affliction(s).

Really, is there even one other mainstream foreign policy analyst you can name who has so decorated, insulated, and associated himself with a such a single, narrow, and sensational thesis?

Can you name one other mainstream foreign policy analyst who is routinely quoted at length on White Supremacy, Islamic Jihadi, and virtually all paranoia/conspiracy-based websites?

Walt (and Harvard) threw their creditability out of the window in exchange for the profits that predictably come from sensational and outrageous books.

If Walt and his groupies think they still warrant serious consideration as policy analysts, they are sadly mistaken.

SIDROCK23

7:43 AM ET

The AIPAC Bafoons are back

of course every card carrying duche bag of AIPAC follows stephen Walt like a hawk, so we should expect some of the israeli banging arguments we are seeing. some of the usual characters (i.e USMARINE85) makes it a point to follow every article in FP that criticizes israel for its stupid and childish behavior.I guess a member of IDF posing as a "US marine" is an attempt to show some sort of america partriotisim, but looking at the comments made by this traitor, its clear is loyalty lies with the israeli regime. I guess he forgets how U.S navy men were killed by our so called "allies" on U.S.S Liberty in a cowardly attack. or how more israelis have been caught spying on the U.S than from any other country in the world. (that includes russains, chinese, arabs, etc) if israel is such a great ally of ours, than where are israelis soldiers in iraq or afghanistan?? I guess israeli military is only good for taking our women and kids.

CYBERFOOL

9:31 AM ET

Big brother / Little brother

I think of the US/Israel relationship as similar to a big/little brother situation. It can work two ways. The proper way is that the big brother makes sure no one kills the little brother and that he is not unfairly picked on.

The disfunctional way (which is the current state of affairs), the little brother can pick on people, cause trouble, punch people, throw rocks, etc. The little brother gets wads of cash from the big brother which helps him buy slingshots & such to make trouble. And if anyone relatilates against the little brother the big brother jumps in to defend the little brother. Oh, and both brothers carry the biggest, baddest guns known to man, just in case they need to totally eliminate anyone.

The latter situation isn't right with brothers and isn't right with countries.

DAVID IN DC

11:15 AM ET

Shocker, Steve comes out frothing at the mouth...

...and repeating the same misleading arguments from his paper and book.

Some examples:

...and non-Jews in Israel are second-class citizens both de jure and de facto.

Not de jure. Jewish and non-Jewish citizens of Israel are equal under the law.

To take but one example, Palestinians who marry Israeli Jews are not permitted to become citizens of Israel themselves. This may make sense given Israel's self-definition, but it is wholly at odds with deep-rooted American values.

This is Steve trying to intentionally mislead. What he says is actually true -- Palestinians who marry Israeli Jews cannot become citizens of Israel. However, it also applies to Palestinians (and citizens of several other states hostile to Israel, for that matter) who want to marry Israeli non-Jews as well. It is a security issue, and bottom line - the law is applied equally to all citizens of Israel. Despite Steve's anti-Israel agitprop, there are no "second class citizens" under Israeli law.

De facto is another story, but show me a county that does not have de facto discrimination and I'll show you a country where there are no racial or ethnic differences at all.

12:52 AM ET

How long have you been making the same desperate argument Dave?

You and your ilk have been at it for 5 years, and in spite of your best efforts, Walt's book is a best seller.

Maybe he shoudl be sending you royalties for raising his and Meareshimer's profile?

>> Not de jure. Jewish and non-Jewish citizens of Israel are equal under the law.

False. Non Jews are descriminated against under the law. Here are a few examples.

1. 93% of the land is held in trust by the Jewish National Fund for the use of Jews wherever they may be in the world. That means the Palestinians (20% of the population) are only entitled to use 3% of the land. No provision to accommodate natural growth.
2. ID papers in Israel are coded to differentiate Jews from Muslims
3. Arabs are subjected to Intense airport security, where all items are removed from the cases of Arabs
4. Demolition of Arab homes.
5. Refusal of permits to rebuild them
6. Prohibitions on Arab land purchases and the resulting overcrowding in Arab towns
7. Re architecting roads and bridges so that only Jews can travel on them
8. Gross neglect of infrastructure and services such a water, electricity, clinics and schools, especially in the Negev.
9. Exclusion of Arab workers from wealth generating sectors of the economy
10. Firing workers who speak Arab rather than Hebrew
11. Diverting or manipulating water supplies
12. Erasure of Arab presence and history by building parks and forests over Arab villages
13. Desecrating a Palestinian cemetery to build a Museum of tolerance
14. Removing former Arab place names from maps and roads.
15. Arab school curriculums are rewritten to remove Arab history and replace it with the Zionist history.

>> Palestinians who marry Israeli Jews cannot become citizens of Israel. However, it also applies to Palestinians (and citizens of several other states hostile to Israel, for that matter) who want to marry Israeli non-Jews as well.

So what Dave is saying is that palestinaisn are descriminted against whether they marry Jews or non Jews.

Well, that clears that up.

And yeah, it's a security issue wink wink.

So yeah, the law is applied equally to all citizens of Israel. It just so happnes that the law is inherently racist.

7:28 AM ET

As I said...

Neoleft:

1. 93% of the land is held in trust by the Jewish National Fund for the use of Jews wherever they may be in the world. That means the Palestinians (20% of the population) are only entitled to use 3% of the land. No provision to accommodate natural growth.

Reality:

The Jewish National Fund (Hebrew: ??? ???? ??????, Keren Kayemet LeYisrael) (abbreviated as JNF, and sometimes KKL) was founded in 1901 to buy and develop land in Ottoman Palestine (later British Mandate for Palestine, and subsequently Israel) for Jewish settlement. The JNF is a quasi-governmental, non-profit organisation. [1][2] By 2007, it owned 13% of the total land in Israel.[3] Since its inception, the JNF has planted over 240 million trees in Israel. It has also built 180 dams and reservoirs, developed 250,000 acres (1,000 km2) of land and established more than 1,000 parks. (Wikipedia)

The rest of your list details discrimination against Arabs, as I noted exists, but not under the law.

One can't help but wonder, if Steve's and your case is so great, why all the attempts to mislead and even outright lie?

6:33 PM ET

What you didn't say DAVID IN DC

>> By 2007, it owned 13% of the total land in Israel.

False. The JNF already owned 40 % of the land in Israel in 1948.

>> Since its inception, the JNF has planted over 240 million trees in Israel.

Yes, planting non native trees to:

a) try and make a Middle Eastern landscape look more like Europe (to make the European immigrants feel more at home)

and

b) to cover up the remains of the arab villages that were destroyed by Israel in 1947-1948.

>> The rest of your list details discrimination against Arabs, as I noted exists, but not under the law.

Actually all of them are. If a Palestinian can be fired for speaking Arabic at a workplace, then it is clearly legal to do so seeing as the Palestinian has no legal recourse to challenge this racist action.

DR GONZO

11:30 AM ET

Alot of Obvious Lies there Marine

Firstly Abu Musab al Zarqawi is not Palestinian but from Jordan. His name gives it away. "Al Zaraqawi" translates to "One from Zarqa" Zarqa is a large town around an hour drive from the Jordanian capital Amman.

Secondly Major Nidal Hassan while being ethnically Palestinian since both his parents were Palestinian was a naturalised US citizen. He was born in Virginia went to school in Arlington and Roanoke and college in Virginia Tech. He never once stepped foot in Palestine (the only time he was in the Middle East was during the first Gulf War).

So claiming Zarqawi was Palestinian is an obvious lie. Claiming Nidal Hassan was Palestinian is probably technically true from an ethnic viewpoint.

Another blurring of the truth is Sirhan Sirhan who shot Bobby Kennedy. Again he was a Palestinian but from a devout Christian community in Jerusalem (in fact an area of Jerusalem thats now under Israeli authority).

As for the news of 3 State Department officials murdered in Gaza by Hamas. I'm wondering could you provide a link for that?

Since it appears from a google search that the only American to ever be killed by Hamas was Joan Davenny who was a tourist killed in a bus bombing. No other Americans (State Dept official or otherwise) appear to have ever been killed by Hamas.

JULIAN363

5:37 PM ET

Non-facts

Zarqawi was "The son of a native Jordanian family (al-Khalayleh of the Beni Hassan tribe)", see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab_al-Zarqawi. So it looks like your claim that he was Palestinian is false. Would love to see your CBS source that says otherwise, maybe you could cough that up if you actually have one.

The three "State Department officials" which you claim were murdered by Hamas in Gaza were not officials, in fact were not even employees of the State Dept. Nor is there any evidence they were killed by Hamas. Also this happened in 2003, not 2008 as you falsely claim on another thread. You have a problem getting even simple facts straight. Why should anyone put credence in your other, non-trivial claims, if you can't even get simple stuff correct?

But seriously, your arguments if we can call them that against Walt are very weak. Embarrassing, actually.

Btw, were you really a US Marine? Just curious.

1:01 AM ET

Zarqawi was Jordanian

>> Zarqawi's parents are palestinians hence, he is a palestinian.

That would make Obama Kenyan, seeing as his father was Kenya.

>> Zarqawi was born Ahmed al-Khalayleh to a Palestinian-Jordanian family in 1966

False. Zarqawi was:

"The son of a native Jordanian family (al-Khalayleh of the Beni Hassan tribe), Zarqawi grew up in Zarqa, where he was a street thug involved in as many as 37 incidents with police, while struggling with alcoholism.[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab_al-Zarqawi

>> The 3 men killed in Gaza were employees of the state department. I didn't realize you would parse words. They were all Americans employed by the US Dept. of State, doing missions for the Dept. of State.

Why are you so afraid to provide links USMARINE? What have you got to hide?

LEEN

11:56 AM ET

Walt "Just as importantly,

Walt "Just as importantly, Israel's democratic status is undermined by its imposition of a legal, administrative, and military regime in the occupied territories that denies the Palestinians there basic human rights, as well as by its prolonged, government-backed effort to colonize these conquered lands with Jewish settlers. Like all colonial enterprises, maintaining Israeli control of the occupied territories depends on heavy-handed coercion. Such behavior is at odds with core American values -- as U.S. administrations of both parties have said repeatedly, if not forcefully enough. "

Israel continues to undermine Israel by continuing to build and expand illegal settlements and illegal housing in E Jerusalem.

My dear friend Art Gish who traveled to the West Bank for 15 years to live with the Palestinians said it is clear to all that Israel has never ever truly wanted peace. They have never stopped building these illegal settlements. Never

11:58 AM ET

that fake US marine is here

that fake US marine is here to distract from the facts. Personally insult all methods used by Ziobots.

12:08 PM ET

Read the 9/!1 Commission

Read the 9/!1 Commission Report. The US support for Israel is mentioned several times as undermining US national security. The former head of the CIA's Bin Laden unit Micheal Scheuer has brought this up over and over again. Great CSpan interview with Scheuer on the conflict as well as Israel pushing us towards a confrontation with Iran.

Also great interview at Cspan with Seymour Hersh and former Weapons inspector Scott Ritter about Iran and the I/P conflict

Hope folks come to. Mearsheimer and Walt speaking
http://www.moveoveraipac.org/
CODEPINK: Women for Peace, Global Exchange, Interfaith Peace-builders, and the Fellowship of Reconciliation, together with over 100 peace and justice groups, are organizing a gathering in Washington DC from May 21-24, 2011, called “Move Over AIPAC: Building a New US Middle East Policy,” and we would like to invite you to be a part of this important national happening! Timed to coincide with the annual policy meeting of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), we will bring activists and concerned citizens from around the country to learn about the extraordinary influence AIPAC has on U.S. policy and how to strengthen an alternative that respects the rights of all people in the region. More info about the DC actions here.

12:15 PM ET

92nd street Y

An example of pressure in the US
A liberal NY Jewish institution invites an ethnic cleanser and a neocon to its stage

by Philip Weiss on April 24, 2011
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Every once in a while I get on my high horse, oh I'd say only three times a day, and right now is one of those times. Here is the tragedy of American Jews. It's all you need to know.The 92d Street Y is hosting the mayor of Jerusalem, Nir Barkat, who has overseen an operation of ethnic cleansing of Palestinian neighborhoods, to speak in New York; and who is his interlocutor-- Bret Stephens, the neoconservative at the Wall Street Journal.

It fills me with despair. This is the discourse? Oh my god. This is why this website is so vital, because all god's chillun got wings, including Palestinian and non-Zionist Jews. But only the rightwingers are allowed inside the Jewish tabernacle these days. I love the Jews, they're mine, they're my root; but their leadership is today deeply deeply deluded, by a messianism as profound and wrong-track as the Shabbatai Zevi. Remember this is the same 92d Street Y that lately disinvited Izzeldin Abuelaish, the Gaza doctor whose three daughters were slaughtered by the Israelis, after the Jewish author who was to appear on stage with him and thereby give him hecksher (kosher him) dropped out of the event. Oh the blindness, oh the selfishness.

Thanks to Ali Gharib, who tweeted sarcastically: "I expect Bret Stephens to really grill Jerusalem mayor Nir Barkat at 92Y."

1:22 AM ET

Please stop posting missinforamtion USMARINE85

>> In a recent discussion of the anticipated Palestinian state, Mahmoud Abbas, leader in the territory, said he "would not tolerate one single Jew in his new country, Palestine."

This has been addressed many times. Abbas was referring to the make up of any peace keeping force in the fugture Palestinian State. He would not accept any Israeli troops being part of that peace keeping force, which is understandable, given that Israeli troops have been maintaining a miitry offucpation in the occupied territories for 44 years.

Abbas has stated that he Jews would be allowed to remain in a palestinia state so long as they agreed to become citizens of the Palestinian state.

GAHGEER

9:57 AM ET

Fake Marine, ever heard of the Samaritans?

The Jews who have been living in Nablus, Palestine, for centuries? even before your-former-peace-partner-now-enemy Abbas was born?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan

Or Perhaps they are no considered Jews in Ashkenazstan, aka Israel.

PBTA

2:26 PM ET

Straw men

Notice how the critics (like our "Marine" friend) bypass Walt's argument altogether and claim that Walt and others support terrorism, simply because we question whether the US should support Israel without qualification.

I support Israel. But we get little from the relationship, and we cannot afford it anymore.

2:42 AM ET

Look up the definition of apartheid USMARINE85

Being opposed to having members of the Israeli occupation forces participate in a NATO peace keeping force is not apartheid.

>> He maintains that Israel should, in fact, become a bi-national state, but on the other hand that Palestine must become a state "clean" of Jews....

False. Abbas has stated that Jews, such as those living in setttlements, would be allowed in Palestine so long as they became citizens of the palestinain state.

ASHTONKAYE

8:08 PM ET

One Way Relationship

I honestly feel the relationship between the US and Israel is really one way. I don't think a single logical person would doubt that Israel has a right to exist. However by that same token no reasonable person would agree that spending 4 billion on a foreign countries military is beneficial for the US. I think it would be best to reallocate that money to domestic issues and slowly wean Israel off our foreign aid budget until there government is self sufficient.

ASCHOPS

3:59 PM ET

Jewish terrorism, Zionist theft

"In my opinion, they (the Jews) have erred grievously in seeking to impose themselves on Palestine with the aid of America and Britain and now with the aid of naked terrorism... . Why should they resort to terrorism to make good their forcible landing in Palestine?" (Mahatma Gandhi)

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs... Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home." (Mahatma Gandhi)

"We should remember that we too used very violent terror against foreign rule because we wanted our own state. And the list of victims of terror is quite long and extensive." (Shulamit Aloni, former Israeli minister)

7:41 PM ET

More on Israeli Jewish theft

"A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947/- 1/6/1948" was dated June 30, 1948 and became widely known around 1985.

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":

1.Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
2.The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements...... (... especially -the fall of large neighbouring centers).
3.Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Zwaí Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
4.Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].
5.Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
6.Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]" (Wikipedia except)
_______________

"In early November 1947, some weeks before the UN partition resolution, the Jewish Agency Executive decided that it would be best to deny Israeli citizenship to as many Arabs as possible. As Ben-Gurion explained, in the event of hostilities, if the Arabs also held citizenship of the Arab state it would be possible to expel them as resident aliens, which was better than imprisoning them" (Wikipedia excerpt)
_______________

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: WE HAVE TAKEN THEIR COUNTRY. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben Gurion, former Israeli PM, recognizing Israel is a thief country whose very birth happened on a stolen crib.)

2:55 AM ET

US MARINE fake history - Reasons for Palestinian Exodus

>> The Palestinians left their homes in 1947-48 for a variety of reasons.

As British observers stated at the time, peope who leave their homes usually take theri belongings with them. The do not just get up and leave. The Palestinians fled or were expelled by Zionit forces, beginnign in November 1947.

>> Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leaders' calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies.

False. As Benny Morris stated explcitly, that "Whatever the reasoning and attitude of the Arab states' leaders, I have found no contemporary evidence to show that either the leaders of the Arab states or the Mufti [Hajj Amin al-Husseini] ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus during April [1948]."(Benny Morris, p. 66)

Between November 1947 and May 1948 alone, Israel expelled 300,000 Palestinians and destroyed hundreds fo villages.

>> Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee and an independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel.

False. in 1938, Ben Gurion, in a joint meeting between the Jewish Agency Executive and Zionist Action Committee on June 12th, 1938 said:

"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] .... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it." (Righteous Victims p. 144).

Ever since Hertzl, Zionists had stated that the removal of the indignenous poulation was necessaey to create a Jewish state.

>> On January 30, 1948, the Jaffa newspaper, Ash Sha'ab, reported: “The first of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere....At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle.”

Even if thi were true, "to go and live elsewhere" suggests that these peopel had not left to make way for the Arab armies.

Glubb Pasha, the British officer of the Jordanian army during the 1948 war, was on the spot at the time and therefore was in a position to know what is going on. He said:

"The story which Jewish publicity at first persuaded the world to accept , that the [Palestinian] Arab refugees left voluntarily, is not true. Voluntary emigrants do not leave their homes with only the clothes they stand in. People who decided to leave house do not do so in such a hurry that they lose other members of their family -- husband losing sight of his wife, or parents of their children. The fact is that the majority left in panic flight, to escape massacre. They were in fact helped on their way by the occasional massacres--not of very many at a time, but just enough to keep them running." (Bitter Harvest, p. 95)

MYTHBUSTER

6:13 PM ET

Hasbara propagandists

It seems that the USMARINE85 hasbara propagandists never sleeps. Two days of non-stop horse hockey. Obviously there is a routine shift change in the Israel propaganda bureau. That's quite a place. The term "Stalinist" comes to mind. And, like those Stalinist propaganda organs, there will be successes here and there and the uninformed and misinformed will drink the coolade.

A former commentator was right on. The hasbara crowd as a special section whose purpose is to follow Mr. Walt and trash him wherever he might go to speak, write, or comment. But it's like chihuahuas nipping at the heels of Paul Bunyan.

From some perspective, Jewish "never again" paranoia is understandable, even when it reaches the point of a mental disturbance. But when someone becomes mentally disturbed, the world should not allow its peace to be threatened by a crowd suffering from a curable mental illness. Radical Zionists are afflicted and it is our responsibility to try and heal them, but it is a disease difficult to treat.

BRYCE1

8:22 PM ET

US Marine

You're making me puke with your dumb responses to every single damn post. Just cash your AIPAC cheque and stop spewing your crap. We all know you're with the IDF and not the US Marines so turn off your computer and go to bed. Idiot!

AMADIB

8:43 PM ET

Deeply disappointed

Having read the original article by Mr. Oren's and the four rebuttals I can honestly attest that I am deeply disappointed. Professor's. Walt and Belfer barely skimmed the surface and focused on minute details rather than than attacking the basis of Ambassador Oren's claims head on.

The most distasteful part was the conclusion, in the last paragraph that began
"If this regrettable event were to occur..."

Regrettable? Really? Are you suggesting that the struggle for equality and dignity of oppressed peoples like those in South Africa are "regrettable". Be sure to phone Nelson Mandela and let him know you you feel. I think your article is the only regrettable thing out of these 5 pieces. Why? Because at least with the other 4 it was expected to be rubbish.

AND REW

9:16 PM ET

Very Well

Very well said, Mr. Walt.

Michael Oren, in order to make his point, comes up with May Flower-old examples and arguments. But I do not understand how this means that the State of Israel in year 2011 is doing the right thing, and the US (because of those May Flower citations) should support every of those actions.

Also, Mr. Walt, if you wonder why the US government is once more putting another special interest in front of the country's interest, I suggest reading some of the above mob-like comments.

10:09 PM ET

More likely Mossad than Marine, I think...

The sheaf of papers in his hand, frantically shuffling through the topic headers...

No, that's the OLD Mossad. The new one sits at her computer, like Pavlov's dog, waiting for the bell to ring from the headquarters. Quick! Search the files for the correct BS to shovel into the discussion.

We're onto the blast email from Karl Rove, the chain emails of the Tea Potters, and the Hasbara troops infiltrating the Internet.

9:07 AM ET

Not a marine

Israel has a serious rebranding campaign going on. Paying folks to go to websites undermine, distract, repeat nonsense. Clearly this person is not a marine.

10:45 PM ET

Organized Israeli propaganda

In case anyone wondered where people like usmarine come from:

"Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.,

"In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article693911.ece

Those guys and gals are volunteer propagandists to supplement paid propagandists in Israel and the U.S. plus the main stream media megaphone. One has to have some sympathy for those trying to make Israel appear to be civilized and not responsible for the terror it inflicts upon defenseless people with the latest people-killing weapons the U.S. can provide, free of charge. They have an impossible task but they have some of the most radical people extant who have no morals or sympathy for Israel's victims. usmarine belongs to a very large club who will put aside any semblance of a moral conscience and defend the indefensible.

9:05 AM ET

Prove it

No one believes for a minute that you are a marine or that you served. Prove it. Your name, rank when and where you served. Prove this. I think you are a liar

9:58 AM ET

Why is USMARINE85 prentending to be a marine?

>> Terrorizing innocent defenseless people? Obviously as a Navy guy, you never faced insurgents/terrorists in war.

Neither have you, and in case it never occured to you, insurgents/terrorists are peopel fighting to liberate their country from invaders.

>> No-one is defenseless when they have RPGs, anti-tank missiles, mortars, AK-47s, machine guns, etc. The Palestinians are loaded to the brim with such weapons.

Yeah, all of then WWII era wepoans while Israel is armed to the teeth with state of the art planes, ordinance and military vehicles.

>> They fire them indiscriminately against civilians, such as a few weeks ago, when they fired a frick'n anti-tank missile at a SCHOOL BUS and killed a young Israeli boy.

As disgusting as that was, it is chicken feed ocmpred to the Israelis targetting of civlian covoyes in Lebanon.

>> The Palestinians also have TONS of explosives smuggled in from gaza, along with strella anti-aircraft missiles.

BS. No anti-aircraft missiles have ever been fired from Gaza.

>> Their "troops" have received top of the line training from Iranian Revolutionary Guards and Hezbollah special forces. Hardly defenseless.

False. No one in Gaza has received any training from Hezbollah or Iranian Revolutionary Guards.

>> Now, based on your logic, why aren't you criticizing the US for taking on the Taliban armed with these same weapons weapons, but even less military training?

Indeed, the US has no business attacking the Taliban. The Taliban never attacked the US.

RELOAD762

1:58 AM ET

Whiff of Desperation, has little knowledge on the subject

For such a learned man , I have never read anything full such inaccurate information. Take for example his comment on Israel during the 1991 Gulf War , “Israel did nothing to help, and it remained on the sidelines in the 1991 Gulf War as well. I fought with the U.S. Army in the 1991 Gulf War. President Bush had to do everything in his power to keep Israel out of the war for fear it would split the Coalition, which many composed of Arab States who hated Israel more than Saddam.
Arab governments who had joined in the American-led coalition against Saddam Hussein came under attack for complicity in American double standards in rushing to the defiance of Kuwait while doing nothing to end the 23-year old Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. IDF embarked on preparations for a major war. On 19 August, the Deputy Chief of Staff issued the order to IDF to get ready for possible action on the Eastern front. The General Staff prepared operational plans for alternative courses of action against Iraq. Against this background of mounting tension, two schools of thought formed inside the cabinet in Jerusalem. Prime Minister Shamir thought that Israel should continue to exercise self-restraint. He was supported by David Levy, Moshe Arens, Dan Meridor and the representatives of the religious parties. The other school demanded a military response to neutralize the Iraqi threat. This school was led by Ariel Sharon and included Professor Yuval Neeman, nicknamed Dr Strangelove, and Rafael Eitan, the leader of the Tsomet and a former IDF Chief of Staff.

As the countdown to war began, the Bush administration stepped up its efforts to bring Israel under control. On 11 January 1991, Under-Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger who was noted for his pro-Israeli sympathies, arrived in Israel at the head of a high-level delegation. Their purpose was said to be 'to co-ordinate policy and strategy with Israel in the event that hostilities break out,' but their real mission was to act as babysitters, to ensure that Israel continued to lie low. At the meeting with the Prime Minister, Eagleburger conveyed the President's request that Israel should refrain from retaliating against Iraq, even if attacked.
Israel and the Conflict
Avi Shlaim
in Alex Danchev and Dan Keohane, eds., International Perspectives on the Gulf Conlict, 1990-91, London, St Martin’s Press, 1994, pp. 59-79.
This article is more fiction than fact

DRNGO4

6:33 AM ET

apply the same standards to Israel as to other countries

Leave aside whether we like Israelis or dislike Arabs,and whether either of them are basically bad; forget for a moment the toxic effect on Arab-US relations of Israeli occupation of Palestine and its pugnacity towards its neighbors. Consider just the impact on US and World interests of the Israeli attempt to keep by force territory it acquired in war.

For the sake of peace-i.e. avoiding war - in a dozen places around the world that is not a precedent the US or the world should tolerate.

There will be no peace for Israel until the US joins the rest of the world in saying that the starting point of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian authority must be the 1967 border. Proponents of Greater Israel would loose plausibility, Israeli politics would favor those who seek peace with its neighbors and Israel's chances of finding peace would increase.

If the peace agreement is too unfair to Palestine the conflict will continue to fester. If there were a fair peace, the US and other countries could support it: They cannot support Israel's land grab or continued brutal treatment of the Palestinians. That would be against their values and the world's prospects for peace..

ROLANDP

10:28 AM ET

Walt Betrays His Arab/Palestinian Bias

1: He called settlements "illegal" and Israel's presence in the West Bank as "occupation" in order to push his point that Israel isn't really a democracy as Oren argued it is. This is a strong-armed political consensus that is illegitimate, completely ignoring the other side of the argument that Israel captured the Territories in self-defense from an existential threat from 3 countries. Or that Palestinian national identity didn't really crystallize until the 1970's. I'm not saying that a mediated agreement will have all of these elements, but it can't have none of these elements.

2: He lambasts Oren for quoting Dennis Ross. And then he mentions Chas Freeman.

8:31 PM ET

ROLANDP betrays logic 101

1. The settlements are indeed illegal and the Israeli presence in the West Bank is indeed occupation. Israel's status as a democracy does not extent to these territories. In fact, it is widely accepted that Israel maintains a state of apartrheid in the OT.

>> This is a strong-armed political consensus that is illegitimate, completely ignoring the other side of the argument that Israel captured the Territories in self-defense from an existential threat from 3 countries

That would be because t the other side of the argument is false. Firstly, there is no legal basis fo capturing territory under any circumstances. Israel are obliged under international law to return it.

Secondly, the 1967 was was not self defense. Israel attacked, knowing perfectly well that Nassser was no threat. Menachem Begin and Yitak Rabin admitted this publicly.

>> Or that Palestinian national identity didn't really crystallize until the 1970's.

That too is false, seeing as Ben Gurion recognized the Palestinian national identity in the 1930's.

>> I'm not saying that a mediated agreement will have all of these elements, but it can't have none of these elements.

That is up to the Palestinians. The settlements re illegal, therefroe Israel have no claim to them.

>> He lambasts Oren for quoting Dennis Ross. And then he mentions Chas Freeman.

Your point?

PERSON_GUYZ

1:12 AM ET

May 24, 2011

ou need to watch fewer motion

ou need to watch fewer motion pictures, and read more books. The actual world isn't Star Wars. Our current engagements are nothing like a long term existential struggle vehicle tracking.This is a strong-armed political consensus that is illegitimate, completely ignoring the other side of the argument that Israel captured the Territories in self-defense from an existential threat from 3 countries.

Foreign Policy Magazine

Inside National Security

Michael Oren's unconvincing argument for the U.S.-Israel special relationship.

BY STEPHEN M. WALT | APRIL 25, 2011

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