Tortured Logic

The United States didn't need to waterboard anyone to get Osama bin Laden.

BY MATTHEW ALEXANDER | MAY 4, 2011

Did torture work? This is the question everyone is asking after Osama bin Laden's death and the revelation that his fate was sealed by the identification of a courier whose nom de guerre emerged from the interrogation of top al Qaeda operatives who were known to have been subjected to waterboarding and similar techniques. "Did brutal interrogations produce the intelligence that led to the killing of Osama bin Laden?" a May 3 New York Times story asked.

This is hardly the first time we've had this debate. In 2006, my team of interrogators in Iraq located local al Qaeda leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi by identifying and following one of his spiritual advisors, Abu Abd al-Rahman. Eric Maddox, a U.S. Army interrogator, found Saddam Hussein by similar means, identifying his former bodyguards. It's these little pieces of information that form the mosaic that gradually leads to a breakthrough. But how best to get those little pieces?

Current and former U.S. officials and their supporters have been quick to argue that "enhanced interrogation techniques" and waterboarding led to the identification of the courier's alias, which started U.S. intelligence down the road to bin Laden. The day after the al Qaeda leader's death was announced, U.S. Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.), the House Homeland Security Committee chair, told Fox News's Bill O'Reilly that "For those who say that waterboarding doesn't work, who say it should be stopped and never used again, we got vital information [from waterboarding] that directly led us to bin Laden." John Yoo, the former U.S. Justice Department official who drafted the George W. Bush administration's legal rationales for officially sanctioned torture, repeated the claim and praised "Bush's interrogation and warrantless surveillance programs that produced this week's actionable intelligence." The torture bandwagon has started to kick into high gear. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

In fact, the information about the existence of a courier working for bin Laden was provided by several detainees, not just waterboarded al Qaeda operatives Kalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi -- we had one detainee in Iraq who provided information about a courier in 2006. The key pieces of information, however, were the courier's real name and location. His family name was first uncovered by CIA assets in Pakistan through other sources. The NSA subsequently figured out his full real name and location from an intercepted phone call. Waterboarding had nothing to do with it.

Moreover, common sense dictates that all high-ranking leaders have couriers -- and their nicknames do little to lead us to them. This is because many members of al Qaeda change names or take on a nom de guerre after joining for both operational security and cultural reasons. The names are often historically relevant figures in the history of Islam, like the Prophet Mohamed's first follower, Abu Bakr. Think of it as the equivalent of a boxer taking on a nickname like "The Bruiser."

Understanding these cultural nuances is just one critical skill interrogators must have to be effective. The other is an understanding of the social science behind interrogations, which tells us that torture has an extremely negative effect on memory. An interrogator needs timely and accurate intelligence information, not just made-up babble.

What torture has proven is exactly what experienced interrogators have said all along: First, when tortured, detainees will give only the minimum amount of information necessary to stop the pain. No interrogator should ever be hoping to extract the least amount of information. Second, under coercion, detainees give misleading information that wastes time and resources -- a false nickname, for example. Finally, it's impossible to know what information the detainee would have disclosed under non-coercive interrogations. 

U.S. Navy/Getty Images

 

Matthew Alexander is a former senior military interrogator who conducted or supervised more than 1,300 interrogations in Iraq. His latest book is Kill or Capture: How a Special Operations Task Force Took Down a Notorious Al Qaeda Terrorist. Alexander is currently a fellow at the Burkle Center for International Relations at the University of California-Los Angeles.

AVILLA

8:16 PM ET

May 4, 2011

"Waterboarding had nothing to do with it."

The head of the CIA was on Jennings last night and directly said that waterboarding did in fact have a lot to do with it. I assume this article was written before the programme was aired. Not that I support torture, but apparently it worked in this case.

 

PINETAR

9:18 AM ET

May 6, 2011

The truth?

And if you can't believe the head of the CIA, who can you believe? And I've got this ocean front property in Saskatchewan that just might interest you.

 

CHURCHLADY

1:41 PM ET

May 6, 2011

CIA chief

Panetta would say no such thing because it is not true. Every single piece of information was developed AFTER the US ended waterboarding, and that has been confirmed over and over. You apparently hear what you choose to hear.

 

AVILLA

6:12 PM ET

May 6, 2011

@Churchlady

"'We had multiple series of sources that provided information with regards to this situation… clearly some of it came from detainees [and] they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of those detainees,' he told NBC anchor Brian Williams. When asked by Williams if water-boarding was part of the 'enhanced interrogation techniques,' Panetta simply said 'that’s correct.'" Whether it's true or not, I don't know. I suspect it is, though.

 

FIFTH HORSEMAN

10:02 PM ET

May 4, 2011

Torture works. Just ask the

Torture works. Just ask the S.S. and KGB. The ultimate question isn't whether it works but at what price. Any society which no longer asks itself what price its paying for torturing human beings though is a society which has already made its bed with the devil.

 

TG CHICAGO

1:32 PM ET

May 5, 2011

Torture works?

"Torture works. Just ask the S.S. and KGB."

Sure. Where can I find them?

Oh yeah, they don't exist anymore. Torture didn't work too well for them, did it?

 

CHURCHLADY

1:46 PM ET

May 6, 2011

Torture works

Define "works". It is not and never has been a means of extracting information. It can elicit names - of your family, neighbors, ANYONE just to get the violence and pain to stop. Then they are tortured and give up "information" but not that which provides intelligence. The point of torture is to instill terror in the hearts of those around the occupier and the ruler. That DOES work. And it also engenders hate toward the torturer and engenders increased retaliation. The Soviets, the Nazis all tortured just to create submission - they got squat in terms of real information because everyone KNOWS real information will not be given sufficiently to anyone just so it cannot be given up. Dictators lost. We know it was used in Vietnam. We lost. that ought to tell you something VERY important.

 

JACKROVETI

12:34 AM ET

May 5, 2011

tortured logic

Matt,
This essay, like many of your others, seems to follow the familiar tomes about the effectiveness of torture in gaining positive information and rightly juxtaposes your experience vs. the political class's support for water-boarding.

What I dislike about your repeated comments and interviews is that you are trying to win both the argument that it is never effective and violates our sense of morality while jepordizing the mission.

It is silly to try to win both arguments - you don't have to; because the moral and mission justifications are solid winners. So what if torture "works"? If it creates more terrorists by using it than we can kill in hyper-targeting during cycle of darkness raids, then its stupid to use it.

Having supervised and conducted hundreds of interrogations and witnessed several done by our Arab partners - I am reluctant to say torture NEVER works in the same way that I hesitate to tell commanders that a polygraph is ALWAYs accurate, a source NEVER lies and the comms will ALWAYs work. If torture never works it would be the only absolute i've encountered in 15 years of intel work. Coercive techniques have produced information that has checked out and it has produced junk...The point is as you allude to in your piece -- it doesn't matter, using torture tells us more about ourselves than it says about the quality of information.

I certainly agree rapport based interrogation is more likely to produce reliable and consistent information (the goal of most intel organizations), but as your essay points out piecing together targeting data for these raids is a painstaking all-source process that puts together small bits of info into a larger mosiac...Yet you want to dismiss the importance of the small bit of information regarding the courier's kunia that cued/ initiated the all-source process for the target intelligence because it was gained from tough interrogations. This is intellectually inconsistent.

I heard you on MSNBC note that KSM revealed the info months after waterboarding was used again to dismiss the relevance, this may work on TV, but overlooks that he was broken and cooperative as a result of his torture. Again, we don't have to condone it, but to ignore it lacks professionalism -- your position is essentially political and your argument loses its power.

Zarqawi was a big success for interrogation, but let's be honest -- lots of hard-core fighters who met him were not broken by standard interrogation methods and did not give his location -- lots of raids failed to bring him to justice -- but they increased the detainee pool, which made hard-heads a bit less important because there were lots of people to talk to and some one with the key nugget will talk.

I don't think the US military should use waterboarding, but I think we should be honest that our methods don't break every detainee, that coercive methods that I view as short of torture such as sleep deprivation are useful and yes torture may produce a valuable bit of info, but as you note it is morally abhorent and produces more enemies than it eliminates.

Sua Sponte

 

STEVE_M

2:42 AM ET

May 5, 2011

"We're better than them"

If we are to situate ourselves upon the moral high ground, then we must abandon torture techniques. In the time it took to waterboard KSM 183 times, we could've used it constructively to develop real security policies and new scenarios. An act of terrorism may take lives but will never be able to bring the US down. It is only through actions and reactions that we put our way of living at risk.

But are we truly better than them? We killed a lot of civilians during WW2 (napalm and nukes) and Vietnam, but our leaders don't talk about that. All that matters in public positioning is victory over Nazis and revenge for Pearl Harbor. We tend to forget about morality when it's not happening within our own borders or within our own military. But history shows that it's not a war crime until you lose or unless you're a low ranking scapegoat.

 

TG CHICAGO

1:34 PM ET

May 5, 2011

Typo in Washington quote

"Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to insure any [prisoner] ..."

Pretty sure you want that word to be "injure" not "insure".

 

SILENTSHWAN

3:30 PM ET

May 5, 2011

All Hail the expert "gator"

Mr. Alexander can sit here and pound his chest, but when he himself sits here and writes in his book with pride that an extremely coersive approach of his insinuates that his detainee's family might have JUST died in an attack and they are going to "check up" on them if the detainee gives up his home address, he loses credibility. Yoo legalized enhanced interrogation techniques through the idea of that if it doesn't leave any permanent markings then it's not torture. In the age of us unraveling PTSD, it would be extremely Naïve for any veteran interrogator to say they haven't ran an approach that left the detainee with permanent psychological scarring. So I'm left scratching my head saying how can someone say simulated drowning is immoral, when playing mind-games that can literally fracture someone's psyche is A-OK (or in his words "Outwit" Al-Qaida's best and brightest)

The average 35M using torture is extremely short-sighted because any detainee he has won't meet a threshold of value, because if it did meet that threshold there'd be a knock on the door by your friendly OGA/ODA/Task-Force representative. This leaves them with the run of the mill IED digger or courier or low level street thug that will either break on a love of family/fear up or some other softball approach once you explain just how grave their situation is. Or they won't break and your just left with them waiting to be released because you've exhausted all your creativity chained to 2-22.3.

Now that's the public side of it. You can sit there and say torture is useless to these guys. Once you get into the world of Task Force/ODA and higher.... Your dealing with guys who are wholly committed to the cause. Folks who could probably brief you better on 2-22.3 than your AIT grad coming out of Huachuca. Master 'Gator here is trying to tell me the standard playbook works on those who have taken Counter and Anti interrogation training. I don't buy it and you shouldn't either.

Torture may produce junk, but as UBL's capture should show, that groups a little higher on the Intelligence Community Chain like the DIA/CIA/NSA have an easier and quicker time validating what comes out of their mouth. This is why your standard interrogator comes equipped with Repeat and Control Questions, but your higher up models from Langley come fully stocked with an entire team of analysts combing over every word as it's spoken, tunneling through database after database looking for information to validate or dismiss.

The Courier's Kunya was given up, they ran with it, validated it, and then handed it to the NSA and waited for a snag on the line. The rest is history

 

KASEMAN

5:49 PM ET

May 5, 2011

yours is not to question why but to do and die

was the justification given to the Brit conscripts, Tommies, in 1914-18 when ordered to climb out of their trenches and "take" the Germans with bayonets. Who were machine gunning them. And they died by the millions. Ditto the millions of French, German and Russian conscripts doing the same trenh exiting. All white Christians, baptised and confirmed as Prots, Papists or Orthodox. .

And how many willingly died for the Nazi cause?

The AQ terrorists are no different.. dying for a political cause that is "holy' to them, like the Tommies who died or were smashed for King and Country. Likewsie the AQistas have no fear of dying .actually wish so to become martyrs no less..and being tortured is maybe better than being killed outright since it also makes us look hypocritical and bad. Fox News not withstanding.

Its all pointless now. We got ObL; so what? Does it make up for our blunders in avenging him? Like embarking on two wars that we are losing, the trillion$ squandered and will squander for years to come, building a million strong STASI bureaucracy, etc, etc. Where were the SEALs and Delta Forces?.

Seems that maybe ObL hoodwinked us into doing this? Assymetric warfare par excellence.

We should now dwell on how to get out of this quagmire asap without losing too much face and spending $$. And hope that current and future leaders not follow the Bush+ Neocon fundamentals of leadership..

 

WECANLIVE

7:05 AM ET

May 6, 2011

Logical Interrogation

Matt - You are the real deal as "The Closer!"

You should be the man to give training to SERE and at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centre (FLETC) to teach all Federal Agents and LEOs the necessary knowledge about interrogation.

Read your book on "How to Break A Terrorist," - A must read for all Criminal Justice and law students.

I know you have a Blog but do you have a twitter page? Please let me know...

cp4abolishment@yahoo.com

 

PYORTOR

9:14 AM ET

May 6, 2011

Cause and Effect in Torture

What looks bleak to me is that people are not only making bad ethical assumptions with this resurrected debate but also bad logical assumptions, which can be worse strategically (if one can even separate the moral from the strategic). That the American zeitgeist seems to applaud torture is a sign of becoming our own worst enemy.

 

BTLBCC

12:04 PM ET

May 6, 2011

Alternative to torture?

Given that there are times when one needs information too rapidly to use standard interrogation methods or one is faced with a prisoner whom one is sure has useful or necessary intelligence, but who is totally uncooperative, what can be done, short of torture?

It's a cliche that torture doesn't work. Act6ually, it does work, to some extent, but it still requires a fair degree of interrogation skill to get at the information o0ne is looking for. Is there any alternative?

How about the use of drugs or alcohol to loosen the subject's inhibitions? I'm not referring to "truth serum," which (to the extent we have investigated it) doesn't work very well. But if the subject's inhibitions were loosened, a skilled interrogator would presumably be able to ferret out information more easily. And given the macho cultures that many terrorists come from, where withstanding torture is a mark of manliness, to spill secrets under the influence of drugs or alcohol would presumably be shameful, which could be another advantage (besides the humani9tarian) to using intoxicants.

 

THINREDLINE

3:23 AM ET

May 7, 2011

Tortured Logic

I read the article and comments with interest. I am a layman with only the most
rudimentary understanding of intelligence gathering.
What interested me is the operational techniques of interrogation. Some of
the other comments are from people who are/have been in that field. Some
of them disagree with Mr. Alexander. So, it is them I address. Does torture
yield actionable intelligence? How does rendition differ from torture? How
effective is torture if the one interrogated knows he will be eliminated if he choses not to cooperate? In your opinion, at what point(level of pain) will
a suspect cooperate? Can you tell from initial contact if a suspect has any-
thing of value to tell you?
As I look over my questions, I'm struck by their subjective nature. I guess,
thats the nature of the business. So, I'd like to hear more from "technicians"
and less from those with a moral perspective.

 

JHAMM

5:37 PM ET

May 7, 2011

Torture

The thought that waterboarding is torture is ridiculous.Surgeons do much worse to patients millions of times a year and we call it treatment.Torture leaves you disfigured perhaps with fewer digits or as the terrorists prefer without a head.To psycologicaly or physically stress a detainee to access information strictly overseen and managed by the office of the president is reasonable moral and necessary.The thought that the terrorist are mad at us because we waterboard Is laughable.I don't get it though.They know Obama would never splash water in their face but yet they still want to kill us .Go figure.

 

ROSEMARIE ALNIC

1:23 PM ET

June 3, 2011

Logical Interrogation

It is silly to try to win both arguments - you don't have to; because the moral and mission justifications are solid winners. So what if torture "works"? If it creates more terrorists by using it than we can kill in hyper-targeting during cycle of darkness raids, then its stupid to use it. psychology Its all pointless now. We got ObL; so what? Does it make up for our blunders in avenging him? Like embarking on two wars that we are losing, the trillion$ squandered and will squander for years to come, building a million strong STASI bureaucracy, etc, etc. Where were the SEALs and Delta Forces?.

 

JACQULINE.ATKIK

1:32 PM ET

June 3, 2011

Tortured Logic

I certainly agree rapport based interrogation is more likely to produce reliable and consistent information (the goal of most intel organizations), but as your essay points out piecing together targeting data for these raids is a painstaking all-source process that puts together small bits of info into a larger mosiac...Yet you want to dismiss the importance of the small bit of information regarding the courier's kunia that cued/ initiated the all-source process for the target intelligence because it was gained from tough interrogations. This is intellectually inconsistent. bankruptcy We should now dwell on how to get out of this quagmire asap without losing too much face and spending $$. And hope that current and future leaders not follow the Bush+ Neocon fundamentals of leadership