Obama's Death Panel

The killing of an American citizen without due process is a national scandal.

BY BRUCE ACKERMAN | OCTOBER 7, 2011

It has been a week since a drone attack rubbed out Anwar al-Awlaki, whose copious English-language sermons, YouTube videos, and anti-Western screeds served as a powerful vehicle for radical jihadism on the Internet. But a steady flow of leaks is only now revealing the scandalous way in which Awlaki, a U.S. citizen, was targeted for assassination.

The revelations should shock even those who believe that a fair-minded reading of the law and evidence provides a strong basis for killing Awlaki. For it is becoming increasingly clear that the White House conducted nothing resembling a fair-minded process. Only three years ago, President Barack Obama repudiated John Yoo's secret torture memos; but he is now repeating the same mistake -- and is making a worse blunder. This time around, he not only relied on another secret Justice Department memo to support his general bombing campaign in Yemen, but he also pinpointed Awlaki as a target on the basis of a scandalous process lacking all legal authorization.

At least this is what the leaks flooding the media suggest. We can't know the truth of these rumors from "authoritative" sources, and this itself is testimony to the scandal we are witnessing. Obama's fellow citizens can't begin to judge his actions on the basis of the shallow news releases and public commentaries provided by his spokespeople -- and rumors only make the situation worse. But given Obama's repetition of Bush-like scenarios, it isn't enough to insist that the White House should immediately provide us with suitably edited versions of the relevant documents. Obama should also support fundamental reforms that credibly assure Americans that the White House will never again be the site for legal rubber-stamping and arbitrary kill orders.

Let's begin with some of the facts leaking out of the administration. According to Reuters, American citizens like Awlaki aren't targeted directly by the president or politically responsible officials. The job is delegated to midlevel operatives in the White House's National Security Council (NSC), who then send their recommendations on to a panel of NSC "principals" comprising a shifting group of cabinet officers and intelligence chiefs, depending on the particular mission involved. We do not know how much information the "principals" receive or how much time they spend weighing the evidence. But such a transient body isn't a suitable forum for making life-and-death decisions about Americans. At the very least, the fate of fellow citizens should be determined by a seasoned group of decision-makers whose judgments are honed by deliberation over time.

This is all the more true because the president himself plays a passive role. The NSC informs him of its targets, and he is free to reject them, but he is protected from making the final decision -- perhaps to provide him with deniability in case the Yemenis or others get testy.

NSC staffers + transient principals + passive president = death. No law or regulation sets out this formula, nor is there even a public record of the existence of the NSC panels. If the Office of the White House Counsel knew what was going on in the Awlaki affair, it should have intervened immediately; and if it didn't, why didn't it?

The present case exhibits the dangers of the current jerry-built system. Nobody suggests that Awlaki was one of al Qaeda's leading military strategists. His real weapon was his impassioned anti-American sermons -- also known as "freedom of speech" and "free exercise" of religion. To avoid blatant unconstitutionality, NSC staffers tried to show that the preacher had moved beyond speech and had become involved in operational missions. But, according to the leaks, as reported by Reuters, "officials acknowledged that some of the[ir] intelligence ... was patchy."

Presidential apologists might point out that the federal courts refused to intervene when Awlaki's father tried to challenge the constitutionality of the White House's targeting decision, calling it a "political question." But judicial deference doesn't imply that the president can do whatever he likes. On the contrary: If there is no judicial review, it becomes especially important for the White House to assure fundamental fairness. There is no other check on political oppression or sheer incompetence.

Up to this point, I haven't challenged the administration's larger claim that, putting aside the decision to target Awlaki, it had the congressional authority to send drones over Yemen in the first place. But the legal basis for its wide-ranging use of drones is remarkably weak. Shortly after Sept. 11, 2001, Congress certainly authorized force against any terrorist group that "planned, authorized, committed, or aided" the 9/11 attacks. But Awlaki belonged to an organization, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, that didn't even exist at the time. Indeed, it's increasingly tough to say that Congress's 2001 resolution authorizes the United States' continuing activities in Afghanistan and Pakistan, given America's recent decimation of the original al Qaeda's fighting capacity.

Or so I've recently argued on this site. Perhaps the administration's secret Justice Department memo contains a convincing refutation of my challenge to its drone attacks in Yemen and elsewhere. But there is no point shadowboxing until the administration deigns to tell its many legal critics why they are mistaken. That's why I've concentrated my fire this time on the decision to target Awlaki in particular, rather than repeat my critique of its expanding war on terror throughout the world.

My point is that nothing like the NSC process should ever be used again to kill an American. If another citizen is ever targeted, it should only be after an extensive debate in Congress, leading to the statutory creation of a serious legal procedure designed to eliminate the obvious abuses revealed in the Awlaki case. Because ultimately, isn't preserving American democracy what this is all about?

JACK GUEZ/AFP/Getty Images

 

Bruce Ackerman is Sterling professor of law and political science at Yale University and the author, most recently, of The Decline and Fall of the American Republic.

BRAUERR31

4:34 PM ET

October 7, 2011

Weird

Things like this really bug me. I mean, as a citizen I believe there is some things that the public should be aware of. For many people they would rather a play a flight simulator for mac than worry about foreign policy or what Obama's doing. Sadly most people are in the dark about what's happening in the world and most likely that won't change any time soon.

 

LULABY

8:58 PM ET

October 8, 2011

Yeah that's strange, i think

Yeah that's strange, i think americans are kinda brainwashed, i mean they should wear bombers and do sports instead of thinking that kind of things...

 

ANON45

8:51 PM ET

October 7, 2011

Common sense would be the reason for lack of outrage

The citizen had literally declared his intention to support Jihad and moved to help them, along with being with a senior Taliban member. Is it not obvious that the person was an enemy combatant and had declared his desire to be treated as such?

This faux outrage against some slippery slope scenario seems utterly ridiculous to me.

 

HURRICANEWARNING

11:03 PM ET

October 7, 2011

agreed. the man was no

agreed. the man was no different than a Benedict Arnold, or any other traitor for that matter, and he was actively trying to kill Americans. I mean, if we're in a war, and a US soldier switches sides and fights his old comrades, and he gets killed...then he deserved it. No different for Awlaki. Way too many people over-thinking this one. We got Glenn Becks coming out of the woodwork, reciting Thomas Jefferson quotes and such. Ridiculous. Would these people rather we had lost a whole 747 full of innocent families a year down the road because we didnt pull the trigger? Did we learn nothing from the last 10 years fighting Bin Laden? When you have a shot at one of these guys...you take it. It doesnt matter where he is from. when someone joins the ranks of an international terrorist group, they are automatically forfeiting their life. end of story.

 

SCHINBONE

12:38 AM ET

October 8, 2011

Agreed, at the very minimum

Agreed, at the very minimum this man was a defector. Then became a "general" in a foreign army at war with the United States. He received what any combatant on the battlefield fully expects at some point.

 

ZORRO

5:08 AM ET

October 8, 2011

It Is Always Common Sense...

...to burn the witch. What else should you do, let her continue to blight the harvest?

 

BING520

1:50 PM ET

October 8, 2011

Citizen or not.

I agree we should not differentiate between a citizen or a foreigner. I believe we should treat everyone the same. If a US citizen is suspected of belonging to a terrorist group, the US should kill him/her as soon as possible regardless of his/her being an Islamic Radicalist or a white supremacist or his/her residency in Yemen or South Dakota. People like bin Laden are as dangerous as those like Timothy McVeigh.

The question I am pondering over is that since we have been doing a lot of killing for the past 10 year without any realistic chance of seeing the end of the killing in a foreseeable future, should we be thinking of some other ways to end this conflict, or are we perfectly happy with this kind of perpetuated killing?

We have been through similar situations before - namely, Vietnam and Philippines. Most people know about Vietnam and General Westmoreland's Search & Destroy(SD) aimed to annihilate Viet Cong. He failed.

From 1898 to 1906, the US Army fought against Filipino guerrillas. General Bell forced civilians into concentration camp, scorched earth, and ordered killing of any 10-year-old or older male found outside concentration areas. He succeeded fabulously. Bell treated extremely well Filipinos living within the concentration areas. The total Filipino casualties are estimated between 34,000 - 1,000,000. Nobody really knows. A lot of historians use 200,000. In spite of that, we are loved by Filipinos.

Islamic Radicalists today scattered through vast geographical territories. We can't occupy all the territories. Can our military technologies render the same success as General Bell achieved? If so, how long will it take? And more importantly, can we live with it morally?

 

ANON45

2:25 AM ET

October 9, 2011

Zorro reply

How is this related to anything?

 

ANON45

2:35 AM ET

October 9, 2011

Bing520 reply

Since when have I said that the average US citizen shouldn't be differentiated? I'm rather saying the exact opposite! This person was far from the 'average' American and there is no doubt that those killed in this particular drone strike were providing aid of material value to enemy combatants knowing full well that they would be used against US troops. Meanwhile they moved into the ranks of the enemy. If that is not being a traitor, then I guess Benedict Arnold wasn't a traitor to the sprouting republic.

Simply because the man didn't formally do away with his citizenship doesn't make him a US citizen.

As for whether this is effective, that is a different question and unrelated to the topic.

 

BING520

3:57 PM ET

October 9, 2011

ANON45

All these killings are tactics employed to defeat Islamic radicalism. Whether the subjects killed or designated to be killed are American citizens is a moot question. Debating on it will generate no consensus but may escalate into mutual vituperation. It is reasonable to ask ourselves if killing the leaders of Islamic radicalism helps achieve our strategic goal of defeating the idea of Islamic radicalism.

I can also add another example. Israeli Defense has assassinated both civilian and military leaders of Hama in Gaza and West Bank since 1990s, and virtually wiped out the entire leadership, but Hama is still there and is growing steadily.

"A strategy without tactics slows down your pace to victory. Tactics without a strategy are only noises before defeat.", Sun-Tzu wrote 2,500 years ago.

First of all, I want to defeat Islamic radicalism.

Secondly, I don't want this country to conduct assassination and killing years after years with no end in sight. It has been 10 years since this war against Islamic radicalism started. We are still basking ourselves in the glory of each successful killing of its leaders. It begins to smell like an endless war of retribution.

Thirdly and finally, it is not too much to ask what we can do differently to combat Islamic radicalism after 10 years' killing. Today, Americans approve overwhelmingly this tactics. If this continues for another 10 years without reaching our goal of defeating Islamic radicalism, I doubt we Americans would not question if we have been doing the right thing. I don't think we would like to end up like being in a permanently vexatious situation, such as Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

MONGO46538

11:56 AM ET

October 10, 2011

Vaguely but ...

It is a bit of a whitch hunt ...

 

HANK GILLETTE

12:13 PM ET

October 11, 2011

And you know this how?

How do you know that al-Awlaki was “actively trying to kill Americans”? Because the Government said so? The same government that refused to indict him, that did not try to strip him of his American citizenship, who said that their reasons for wanting to kill him were too secret to be presented before a judge? The same government that even now refuses to release any evidence that they had against him?

This is the whole reason for the 4th and 5th Amendments to the Constitution. That no one should be deprived of life and liberty without the due process of law. That we should not be forced to rely on our government's say-so about who is a criminal and should be executed. The the government must present evidence in a court of law before summarily executing a citizen.

It is very hard for me to see how a radical Muslim with a big mouth living several thousand miles away presents an imminent danger, especially when the government is unable or unwilling to present actual evidence and instead says, “Trust me, this is a bad man.”

No matter how much you may trust this particular President not to abuse this power that he has claimed, what is your strategy when a President you do not trust is elected?

 

J.S.BRIDGES

7:12 AM ET

October 12, 2011

No "death panel" involved, really...

Both you and Ackerman are full of c**p

U.S. citizenship, even for the natural-born, is not an impregnable shield against the imposition of ignorance, stupidity or cupidity. In addition, it carries with it a certain minimal level of responsibilities. Forfeiture of the rights ordinarily inherent in such citizenship naturally and inevitably follows for any individual who fails in those responsibilities, among which is the requirement that said individual not actively foment or participate in acts of war or insurrection against the U.S. or their fellow citizens.

It requires no more “due process” than the examination of the available evidence to declare that al-Awlaki failed in his responsibilities to his U.S. citizenship, by such active participation. He therefore forfeited any possible claim to any further respect for his thereby-abandoned/violated citizenship, and made himself a target of U.S. retaliation. He made himself into a traitor and an enemy, and richly deserved what he got as a result.

Anyone attempting to advocate otherwise is a liar, a fool or both. End of story.

That Pledge Of Allegiance isn’t just school-boy mumbling or simple public ritual - it has meaning, even for the ignorant or the stupid.

 

MICHAEL.RUGAARD

8:05 AM ET

October 14, 2011

Get a little ambition

Rule of law is apparantly not a big thing among some of you FP readers. Seems to me , that you simply lack the discipline and ambition it takes to maintain a country in the Western hemisphere.

 

CHRISAK

8:12 AM ET

October 8, 2011

Due Process MUST sometimes defy "common sense"

The ridiculousness (from a "common sense" perspective) of what ANON45 calls the "slippery slope" argument is NOT intellectually compelling. You know what else seems absurd from a common sense perspective?--Special Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Bad analogies? Nope!--We are dealing here with highly sophisticated balances between different interests (or values, or commitments) fundamental to our life and identity. We SHOULD therefore make sure that decisions impacting those interests (the killing of a citizen, at the very least) are rigorous when we can afford it.

Could we afford a more rigorous decision in Awlaki's case? Ackerman says yes, and, he is right! Ackerman wrote a brilliant book ("Before the Next Attack," 2006) in which he recognized the need, as a citizen, to tolerate increased executive discretion in situations of emergency. So he is not some "suicidal liberal" (as I may well be). I think he judges accurately here that killing Awlaki was not a clear emergency, regardless of all the far-fetched scenarios you might imagine (e.g., that Awlaki's might have been in the process of planning an attack just before he was assassinated).

To me the bottom line is that no amount of media evidence, or "common sense" as you call it, ought to substitute for due process.

 

ANON45

3:14 AM ET

October 9, 2011

Chrisak Reply

This isn't a matter where the man would have been there at the end of the debate, it is a moment of do it or don't, and the consequences of 'don't are unknown.

That man's own videos along with his ACTIONS are more than enough due process considering the time constraints and the fact that Alwaki moved out of the United States to provide more support for our enemies.

Basically we must agree to disagree, because I feel Awlaki forfeited any special rights he might be afforded as a US citizen when he willingly provided aid of material value to enemy combatants, both foreign and domestic, knowing that such aid would lead to the deaths US troops, after which he left the United States to work among these enemy combatants. No better than Benedict Arnold, and quite a bit worse.

 

PITKO

10:32 AM ET

October 8, 2011

Outraged

I'm totally shocked that for the author and most of the people commenting it is totally normal to kill a person whose only "real weapon was his impassioned anti-American sermons -- also known as "freedom of speech" and "free exercise" of religion" if he is not american. This whole article is shameful!

 

HURRICANEWARNING

1:30 PM ET

October 8, 2011

Pitko, CHRISAK

PITKO: First off, Awlaki wasn't killed because he gave "impassioned anti-American sermons". there are plenty of vehemently anti-american people living in america who speak on every street corner, and they continue to be free to do so. No one cares if all you do is speak your mind. The reason we went after Awlaki is because he WAS in fact actively engaged in terrorist warfare against the people of the United States. Why is that so hard for you to believe? Given all the ways we have wronged Muslims historically, how is it that so many of you refuse to believe that terrorism is real, or that it is not a threat? Where is the disconnect there? WE ARE AT WAR! Ask any one who has been and actually seen the threat themselves.

CHRISAK: Due Process is no longer an option during a global war, where speed is the name of the game. It was essentially using your amazing "logic" of due process that allowed Bin Laden to escape the crosshairs on ,multiple occasions before 9/11...we all saw how that one worked out. No, hold on, let's recap; 1993 world trade center bombing, khobar towers boming, Africa Embassy bombings, USS Cole bombing, 9/11, London Bombing, Madrid Bombings, the IRaq war, Afghan war, Somalian conflict, Yemen conflict...I could really go on here. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON"T PULL THE TRIGGER ON SOMEONE YOU KNOW IS A THREAT. What is it exactly that you don't get about that? We havent purposefully targeted and killed innocent civilians at any point during these wars (please show me PROOF, other than internet hearsay, that I am wrong). mistakes have been made by individuals, but the US government does not, and will never go after people if they are not a threat to the lives of Americans. I honestly want to know what happened during your life where now you feel that a 1984 scenario is an inevitability anytime lethal measures are taken during war. IT IS A WAR for chrisssakes. That is all.

 

PITKO

4:29 AM ET

October 9, 2011

I can't argue if he deserved

I can't argue if he deserved to die or not. But the author of the article says that he was exercising his constitutional rights. I think he is a law professor so he must know what he is talking about. So again if I understand the article, it is OK to kill e person that is exercising his constitutional rights if he is not american. But is he is american it is a different story. I know that you are american, and I as European don't get how you think, but from a moral point of view I'd be ashamed if I was you.

 

HURRICANEWARNING

4:09 PM ET

October 9, 2011

Pitko: I appreciate what you

Pitko: I appreciate what you are trying to say, but... Bin Laden, exactly like Awlaki, was just a "preacher" he never pulled any triggers, or detonated any explosives, yet he was the most feared terrorist of all time. If we could go back and kill bin laden while he was still learning how to perfect his craft, we would. The death of Awlaki shows that the United States has learned from its past problems, and now addresses them before they get out of control. There is nothing moral about letting an enemy general who is actively trying to kill innocents live free, and then just waiting for the hammer to drop. There is no true morality in the path you seem to proclaim for yourself. I would actually be ashamed to be YOU. You arent even morally strong enough to kill one sick, deadly man in order to save many innocent men.

 

PITKO

1:41 AM ET

October 10, 2011

Maybe it is my fault because

Maybe it is my fault because english is not my native language, but I don't think that you understand what I want to say. I don't argue if he was a terrorist or a preacher. I just argue that the author's logic is shameful. If I understand it right, HIS logic says that it is ok to kill poeple doing some things (right or wrong) if they are not american. But if they are american it is wrong to kill then though they are doing the same things.

 

HURRICANEWARNING

4:12 PM ET

October 10, 2011

oh...Lost in translation I

oh...Lost in translation I guess. My bad. Yes, I agree that the dual standard is shameful. A criminal is a criminal, and a terrorist a terrorist; regardless of nationality.

 

DRLAKE777

3:05 PM ET

October 8, 2011

Three things

Three things come to mind about this issue...

First, I don't see any reason to make a distinction between citizens and non-citizens. If it is wrong to kill US citizens who are members of non-state groups actively engaged in a covert war against the US, then it is wrong to kill non-citizens. Anything else would violate one of the basic principles of the rule of law, which is that EVERYONE is equal under the law. We already discriminate against foreigners and violate our laws and treaty obligations by doing things like executing foreigners without providing them with consular representation, we definitely shouldn't be also privileging US citizens who join in this "war" on the other side.

Second, I don't have any moral qualms about targeted killings of declared enemies of the US who are part of the organizations that have attacked us. While there are good reasons to take a law enforcement approach to much of our counterterrorism efforts, if we choose to use deadly force against our foes it doesn't bother me at all.

Third, I can't take complaining about the legality of drone strikes in Yemen very seriously. If Congress were a responsible political actor it would authorize such measures, but since it can't be relied upon not to play games with our foreign policy then rather than allow our efforts to be hampered by them not doing their job I don't have a problem with the president making the decision.

There have certainly been questionable kills carried out via the drone program, and more monitoring of the process would be completely appropriate, but in this case taking out Awkaki is a righteous kill to me.

 

CMACPHER

3:42 PM ET

October 8, 2011

I disagree

Anwar al-Awlaki is a US citizen. He was a member of Al-Qaeda. He was a terrorist, and probably a world-class dou***bag. But most importantly, he was an individual that advocated, and materially supported the killing of me, my friends, my family, and people like me. That is the only important consideration at this point as far as I am concerned.

I don't care if you're a US citizen, a world citizen, a nobel prize winner, a priest, or a saint: if you advocate the killing of myself, my friends, and my family, or help assist in such an effort in any way, shape, or form, I'm going to target you. I'm going to be glad when you're killed, and I don't care how it's done. Obama just saved us the trouble. This isn't an outrage. Was it illegal? Probably. Do I care? Not in this case. Awlaki would have killed myself and my family had he gotten the opportunity. That's all that matters. Claiming the universal right of self defense, if given the opportunity I would have personally put two bullets in his head at point blank range and then gone home to make a snack. If that makes you more legally comfortable, then give me a list of names and an address. Otherwise I say good job Obama.

 

DINGYIBVS

4:41 PM ET

October 9, 2011

Is there proof?

Do you suspect that he wants to kill you and your loved ones, or do you actually have proof of it? If you actually have proof of it, why can't he be tried in absentia, with a court-assigned lawyer should he not choose one himself?

For example, if you saw a man shoot your mother to death, the whole thing was even video taped, would it be legal for you to shoot him to death a week later? You KNOW he's guilty, you KNOW he deserves to die, but guess what, if you shoot him with time to premeditate, then you WILL go to jail. With leniency, perhaps, but you'll be locked up nonetheless. Why? Because you didn't go through due process. You NEED to let the court decide his guilt even if his guilt is obvious to all. It applies to all citizens of the United States, why shouldn't it apply to those who work for the government?

 

RMDUENAS

9:15 AM ET

October 10, 2011

The core, the prize

Good to read that at least one of the people commenting caught the core of the article, which is that the US Constitution establishes that sentencing a man to death should be decided by courts, in all cases, and not just in those that are convenient for the government in turn.

What I find really paradoxical is that the man who received the Nobel PEACE prize already accounts for two of such deaths.

 

TOUFU

5:13 PM ET

October 8, 2011

anwar

Americans are brainwashed, they say Anwar al-Awlaki want to kill them, murder their family, butcher them in their sleep, is a high ranking member of Al Qaeda; but there is no evidence for any of these claims. If there is any evidence, US government could obtain a grand jury indictment for his arrest. But they didn't, they just assassinated him.

 

DOMINOES

9:06 AM ET

October 11, 2011

Do you need more evidence?

Look at 9/11 and all of the attempted bombings that were stopped over the last couple of years....that is plenty of evidence. This is not an issue of evidence or no evidence. The US is in a war against Al-Qaeda and Awlaki was one of their top leaders.

The issue at hand, at least from what the author is posing is whether or not it is ok to target US citizens when they turn against the US and join forces with the terrorists. Interesting question, but I don't think their should be a double standard at all, because citizenship does not matter when you are planning terror attacks against any nation, not just the US. These jihadists must be eliminated because reason does not work with unreason-ability. The terrorists dedicate their lives to the art of killing and terrorizing innocent people. So the best action to take against them is pre-emptive strikes, because we have seen what happens when no action is taken.

TOUFU - your comments have no basis, because there is plenty of evidence, maybe not word for word like you state "they say Anwar al-Awlaki want to kill them, murder their family, butcher them in their sleep, is a high ranking member of Al Qaeda" but he was a high ranking official and did plan and organize jihad at the highest levels of Al Qaeda.

 

MATTHEW2219

2:58 PM ET

October 11, 2011

A Grand Jury indictment?

Sure, and maybe a stern warning to Benedict Arnold would have been effective too.

Awlaki was clearly a traitor and as such was eligible for the Death penalty (which by the way, I am opposed to). But how would you stop him from fomenting terrorist attacks on America? Arrest him? How many soldiers would be killed if we tried that approach?

Free speech does not permit words that are likely to provoke a violent response. Shouting "Fire" in a theatre can be prohibited. And if you can't prevent the speech you can eliminate the speaker when his intent is beyond dispute.

 

TIMWX

6:43 AM ET

October 27, 2011

...

@TOUFU I agree. And I think FP needs to do a "Worst. President. Ever" post. Change you can believe in. lol.

- Vince Delmonte

 

GUYVER

3:25 AM ET

October 9, 2011

Due Process

While I truly abhor what al-Awlaki stood for and did, he was an American citizen and that either counts for something or it doesn't. Why couldn't he have been tried, found guilty, and sentenced to death in abstentia? So now it's okay to kill citizens on a case-by-case basis?

Move over, Alberto Gonzales and John Yoo. President, Nobel peace laureate, and former constitutional law scholar Barack Obama has declared that his administration needs no judicial review and that every hit they target simply could not be avoided.

 

THIRDWORLDCHARLIE

4:19 PM ET

October 9, 2011

Why No outrage?

Well Anwar was Muslim, doesn't it answers the question. Shame on you America.

 

DOTMAN

5:32 PM ET

October 9, 2011

The Team America effect.

I think it is pointless trying to engage a frighteningly large section of america on the philosophical and ethical nuances of their governments decisions/actions. If you aren't for the chorus, "America, F***K YEAH!" you are a terorrist sympathiser. Many seem to mention threat to my nation, family etc, but are not even aware of the threat their nation has been to others. Why? Because they don't need to. Remember the Romans and their eternal quest to slay the barbarian scourge. History repeated methinks.

 

HURRICANEWARNING

3:56 PM ET

October 11, 2011

you do realize that you

you do realize that you represent the other poll of the "team America" crowd, right? Why is it always surprising to me that people with extreme views never acknowledge those views as they criticize other extremists? Your point only speaks from the left or liberal point of view, and therefore it is flawed. Just as one from the right would be flawed. Reality lies in the grey area. I think you need to realize that in order for a society to function properly, one has to put a certain amount of trust in the government, and the checks and balances that it has in place. Of course, we must always be wary, and demand answers from our government, but simultaneously we need to realize that sometimes a threat is actually a threat, and sometimes killing one man can save many. This is reality. The world is not perfect. And life is not fair. The US, just as any other nation, will do what it wants to when it feels it is threatened. We are the biggest dog on the block, and we have interests, so we act according to those interests. And thus I am not sure your point is a rational one. In real life, what others think about us as a threat, actually isn't that important. Keeping our power intact, and remaining a safe and secure state is the best thing for the world and for Americans. This isn't a comic book world of "right" and "wrong". This is reality.

 

HIPPOFEET

7:42 PM ET

October 9, 2011

Methinks

Anyone who uses the word "methinks" has issues. I am an American. I am well travelled, in the Middle East and Asia. And Africa as well. In the Military and out. I am not college educated, I do not subscribe to any major media, or political party. I believe Palestine needs to be a state. I believe we need some sort of Judicial process that can verify "proof", and also the ability as a nation to deal with those who would do American citizens harm. I hope we , as a nation, can refrain from stepping into situations we can see from the outset will not be made better in the short time support for "the new thing" can be maintained. I also supply (in a very small way) manufactured items for personnel in uniform, overseas. I have never had a problem speaking my mind, even when someone has an "infidel" patch on their chest rig. No one I knew during my time in the Mil (first gulf war) was on any crusade, personal or otherwise. A lot of unnecessary hate and anger in the comments here. As far as Awlaki is concerned, had I done as he did, I would expect retaliation. A draftee has no choice. A volunteer does, and he knew what he was doing. The above article seems to me to be an attempt by Mr. Ackerman to expose a flawed system for dealing with a different kind of combatant. We have only begun a long process of creating policy and law around this subject. In the meantime, it is not in the best interest of the US to just let whoever, do whatever. Also true for any nation in the world.

 

PICKYOURBATTLES.NET

2:31 AM ET

October 10, 2011

Mr. Ackerman, the process already exists

You wrote, "If another citizen is ever targeted, it should only be after an extensive debate in Congress, leading to the statutory creation of a serious legal procedure designed to eliminate the obvious abuses revealed in the Awlaki case."

That process already exists. There was an extensive debate at the Constitutional Convention and during ratification debates, that resulted in the Fifth Amendment's protection against life being taken without the due process of law. This due process of law is spelled out further in the Constitution, defining treason as making war on the U.S. and aiding our enemies. It further states that a conviction for treason requires an open court.

We are talking about a suspected traitor and his crime of treason! We must label him appropriately. It makes absolutely no sense to not label this man a suspected traitor. Whatever else he might have been, propagandist, operational planner, he was essentially and centrally a traitor. Equally, it then makes no sense to not look to the Constitution's guidance on dealing with those suspected of treason. To not start the discussion here is to throw the Constitution and the rule of law completely out the window. This man was not charging at friendly troops with his AK-47. He did not present an imminent threat and he wasn't on a battlefield. This wasn't a "we didn't have a choice in the fog of battle" moment. He fell squarely into the category of traitor, and the Constitution has spoken clearly on this matter on what was required by law.

Some say just because the Constitution provides the due process for a treason conviction, does not mean we have to convict him, the government can just kill him instead. Such an un-American conclusion requires the belief that the government has no restraints, can do whatever it wants in all matters, and Americans have no rights or protections. But the United States is a creation of the Constitution, and therefore the United States is always limited by that document.

Others bring up the "feasibility" of capturing the suspect. The New York Times has recently reported that the secret memo, according to anonymous leaks, stated that capture, if feasible, was legally required in this case. If true, then the memo itself admits that the assassination was illegal, if capture was feasible. Those who say capture wasn't feasible should take a look at the map of Yemen, our military bases, our naval capability and then consider the UBL raid in nuclear equipped Pakistan, and our invasion of Panama to capture and put on trial Manuel Noriega.

If we kill every suspected enemy in the world, and lose our Constitution and rule of law in the process, our enemies have won.

 

FORLORNEHOPE

3:53 AM ET

October 10, 2011

No person

As a foreigner, I hesitate to make this comment however it is worth noting that the words used by your, excellent, constitution in this context are "no person" not, as implied in the article and many of the comments, "no citizen".

 

NICOLAS19

4:00 AM ET

October 10, 2011

wow, lots of seasoned judges here

Having read the comments, I'm a bit shocked, but not that surprised.

Most people here think that being an "Islamist" or "jihadist" equals a death sentence. Some people thought the same of being born Jewish, remember? How are you any better than them?

True that some extremist Islamists want US citizens dead. So what? Have you never wished somebody dead? Some of you are doing so now, rejoicing the death of your fellow citizen.

If one part of a group kills someone, do you prosecute the whole group? Fort Hood shooting, a mass homicide and act of terrorism was committed by a US Army Major. If all Islamists should be dead for the grave crimes of some Islamists, then all US Army members should be dead for the grave crimes of some US Army personnel, right?

 

PAPICEK

9:43 AM ET

October 10, 2011

it's partly your own fault...

Every time you thoughtlessly characterize someone as a "terrorist" even when someone may be an ordinary criminal, every time you charge al Qaeda affiliation with some atrocity (this means you, Blake Hounshell), no matter how tenuous the connection, you feed the general atmosphere that the US needs to have total freedom to act.

Israel is far worse at this than we, and it's catching on elsewhere. That hijacker in Osh, Kyrgyzstan killed by a sniper acted exactly as any criminal might: he saw a roadblock and tried to avoid it, yet he too was called a "terrorist".

Ask yourselves what makes a terrorist v what makes a freedom fighter? When is a car bomb different than a bomb dropped from the sky? When is someone burning a Coptic church different than tanks moving in on a crowd of protesters in Homs?

There is a vocabulary for all these things, but it could be better. It's shortcomings, and the thoughtlessness in the media has played a significant part in the murder of an American without the due process the constitution demands.

I look forward to the FP article titled "When Is A Terrorist A Freedom Fighter?"
You can begin with the example of Nathan Bedford Forrest and the KKK.

 

DYLAN H

11:08 AM ET

October 10, 2011

Awlaki was not a citizen

Awlaki was only a citizen by a fluke of the law. The relevant law here was written before NGOs started fighting wars with states. The fact remains that this was a man who publicly waged war on the US and intended to (and indeed attempted to) kill US citizens. Comparing killing him with killing a citizen is a false equivalency. Only a truly naive and overly technical reading of the law would lead a person to believe that Awlaki was still a US citizen.

 

HIPPOFEET

11:16 AM ET

October 10, 2011

Huh?

Nicolas19:

I can see how you would not be surprised. I think you saw what you wanted to in the above posts. In your reference to "any better than them" I assume you mean Nazi's. I can think of many ways "we" are better than them. Islamist and Jihadist are not separate terms. In this case, I believe you are thinking of the western definition of Jihad as strictly military. I would go with "defend Islam", one of the tenets of Jihad, itself a duty for all Muslims.

I did not see anyone here, nor do I know anyone personally, calling for a war against Islam. "terrorist" does not, in any definition, equal "Islamist" or "Muslim" and I would hope that anyone saying that is rightly ignored.

"True that some extremist Islamists want US citizens dead. So what? "

Defend that statement in a reasonable fashion. That makes no sense, and has nothing to do with the article or comments here.

As far as "When is a terrorist a freedom fighter", that's a difficult argument, and the most germane comment I have seen , to the conversation if not the article. And I think that is entirely a matter of perspective. Is a terrorist a "freedom fighter" fighting for freedom from US foreign policy? Or are all Americans "freedom fighters" fighting for freedom from terrorist actions against US citizens at home and abroad?

 

MONGO46538

12:05 PM ET

October 10, 2011

Due Process

The concept of Due Process was cast aside when the Bush Administration decided to declare a criminal act as an act of war, then used the premise to invade sovereign nationalities. This not only confused the two but created the concept of miitary war upon ideology, thus legitimizing Al Qaeda and thier cause in the eyes of the Muslim world. It will be known as the greatest military and foreign policy blunder in history, greater than Stalingrad and Waterloo.
So now that we've stepped in it with both feet, the Obama administration has no choice but to act accordingly. There is no time for endless congressional debate over ideological semantics, there is only time to act.
So far I applaud the Obama administration for quick decivise action. Awlaki forfeit his citizenship in theory if not procedure a long time ago.

 

AMERICAN-AMERICAN

12:16 PM ET

October 10, 2011

DUE PROCESS

Well now yes he did and so did the Fort Hood shooter who was also a soldier that got info from who? awlaki. They could have killed him instantly. He forfited his rights

 

AMERICAN-AMERICAN

12:12 PM ET

October 10, 2011

AT TIME OF WAR

It use to be done back in earlier times, a citizen and or soldier could be put to death IMMEDIATELY for treason and/or sadition in the time of war. The reason why GITMO is full is because the leaders are listening to too many human rights groups because "we are not to treat them inhumanely?" During Vietnam the Marine Recon Snipers carried out hunt/kill missions all the time to take out vc officers and high profilers. Read the book "Dear Mom" about the missions of one such Marine. Anyway why should we NOT take these people out? They are enemies and this is a time of war, during war you take out your enemy. Why should I have my taxes pay for his stay in a cell and feed and clothe him and pay for his trial for the rest of his life. We capture the junior ones(foot soldiers) to gain intel about people like awlaki and osama. Once we know where they are we dont need them for intel about themselves.............BOOM!!! Move on to the next target. By the way as far as I am concerned as well as any other Veterans out there I fought for the Flag that is in my front yard that gives you the right to express your opinions on this article as well as the person that wrote it. IT DOES NOT HOWEVER GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO JOIN FORCES WITH OUR ENEMIES WHEN WE ARE AT WAR WITH OR SUPPORT THEM OR AWLAKI WILL BE WAITING FOR YOU!

 

WASHINGTONIAN76

12:40 PM ET

October 10, 2011

We should never have special cases

If our split system of governance is to have meaning, then it needs to be robust enough to handle outlier cases involving citizens such as Awlaki. No one in the executive branch should have sole authority to execute a citizen. If a citizen engages in a treasonous act and leaves the country, it should be reviewed and authorized by the Judicial Branch, even if the accused is absent. We have absentia trials all the time.

We are not officially at war with Yemen and so military tribunals should not apply. Is it really too difficult to present a judge with some evidence, to ascertain whether or not it is valid, and if there sufficient justification to determine guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?

What makes me uncomfortable is the possibility that this authority could blow back on our shores.

 

AMERICAN-AMERICAN

12:43 PM ET

October 10, 2011

FREEDOM FIGHTER

FREEDOM FRIGHTER- noun
a fighter for freedom, especially a person who battles against established forces of tyranny and dictatorship. Lets see maybe Libyan Rebels, Egypt, on and on. Oh yeah us during our REVOLUTION the citizens who were not soldiers but plain ordinary people who volunteered.

 

HIPPOFEET

1:42 PM ET

October 10, 2011

Last year, a federal court

Last year, a federal court ruled that such decisions are matters for the president and Congress to resolve, not the judiciary. That ruling recognized the dangers of letting federal judges exercise control over tactical combat decisions — a realm in which they have little or no expertise and in which they have great potential to do harm. Procedures that are sensible and prudent in a civilian law enforcement setting could be a disastrous impediment in a military one. (excerpt from a chicago times article).

There has been "judicial review" of the subject. Wikileaks released documents showing that Yemeni Government officials condoned such actions, so there is a precedent. Al Qaeda is an NGO, with no affiliation to the recognized Government of Yemen. Our drone attacks, or even Special Operations forces require the permission of Yemen to conduct attacks, not a Congressional declaration of War against Yemen. Military tribunals MAY apply, depending on the Judicial Branch definition of an NGO combatant, US citizen or not.

 

AMERICAN-AMERICAN

1:56 PM ET

October 10, 2011

HIPPOFEET

Thank you for your input I have been actually looking for the ruling/laws that govern such situations. Military actions/decisions are in place to cover such situations especially for acts of war. Tribunals, court martials, etc. are for the military and it is exact when said a civilian judicial system CAN cause alot of damage.

 

AARONJA

2:09 PM ET

October 10, 2011

Revoking his citizenship

The problem with Awlaki seems to be that there is no provision in US law to revoke the citizenship of individuals who join non-governmental groups engaged in violent hostilies against the US. If he had joined a foreign army at war with the US then his citizenship could have easily been revoked first--

"The Immigration and Nationality Act [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(3)] provides for loss of U.S. nationality if an American voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship enters or serves in foreign armed forces engaged in hostilities against the United States or serves in the armed forces of any foreign country as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer. "

Perhaps the law needs to be ammended to include international terrorist networks.

 

TERRY BRENNAN

2:12 PM ET

October 10, 2011

Law of War or Criminal Law

The key question is whether he should be treated as a citizen or resident who has committed a crime, or as a soldier of a foreign power.

If a citizen, then due process is required before taking anything from him.

If a soldier, then it is both proper and moral to kill him.

Here we have a citizen who is a soldier of a foreign power. Which is more important? His citizenship or his allegiance?

To my mind, his allegiance -- his choice -- is more important.

Also to my mind, the Obama administration's process was quite reasonable. Since he fled to a place where he could not be extradited, there is no way that a criminal.process could be initiated. He put himself beyond the pale in a couple of different ways.

 

BING520

2:42 PM ET

October 10, 2011

Law of War or Criminal Law

If criminal law is applied, the due process must be strictly observed regardless of the residency of the alleged offender.

If law of war is applied, we have a right to kill the enemy threatening us as much as an enemy a right to kill any of us who try to kill him/her. It should not matter to us if the enemy is an American citizen or not. The same rules can be equally applied to and by our enemy. It is a war.

I think neither law of war nor criminal law is applicable to this conflict. Neither makes clear sense. The question should ask opurselves is that will our killing the leaders of Islamic Radicalism help us achieve our goal of defeating the movement of Islamic Radicalism?

Nobody wants to see this conflict degenerat into an endless cycle of retribution and violence like the one between Israel and Palestine. We would make ourselves an active participant of a vicious cycle if we simply cheer about each successful kill without asking how the killing has helped us move a step closer to defeating Islamic Radicalism.

 

BING520

2:42 PM ET

October 10, 2011

Law of War or Criminal Law

If criminal law is applied, the due process must be strictly observed regardless of the residency of the alleged offender.

If law of war is applied, we have a right to kill the enemy threatening us as much as an enemy a right to kill any of us who try to kill him/her. It should not matter to us if the enemy is an American citizen or not. The same rules can be equally applied to and by our enemy. It is a war.

I think neither law of war nor criminal law is applicable to this conflict. Neither makes clear sense. The question should ask opurselves is that will our killing the leaders of Islamic Radicalism help us achieve our goal of defeating the movement of Islamic Radicalism?

Nobody wants to see this conflict degenerat into an endless cycle of retribution and violence like the one between Israel and Palestine. We would make ourselves an active participant of a vicious cycle if we simply cheer about each successful kill without asking how the killing has helped us move a step closer to defeating Islamic Radicalism.

 

AMERICAN-AMERICAN

3:18 PM ET

October 10, 2011

MR. ACKERMAN

IF YOU ARE A PROFESSOR OF LAW DID YOU KNOW WHAT HIPPOFEET IS TALKING ABOUT? JUST A QUESTION.

 

BING520

5:02 PM ET

October 10, 2011

AMERICAN-AMERICAN

I have the same difficulty in understanding Hippofeet's argument. Geneva Convention is a set of widely known rules governing the conducts of war. Patriot Act authorizes the Presidency to combat against terrorists. That can the Court intervene to stop the Administration from stripping arbitrarily a US citizen of legal rights protected under the Constitution and killing him/her is a very good question. I don't know if the Court has ruled over the issue yet.

 

HIPPOFEET

9:15 PM ET

October 10, 2011

Hague conventions?

Bingo:

The Geneva Convention defines the rights and protections of non-combatants, thus:
“ Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall, at all times, be humanely treated, and shall be protected, especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity. Women shall be especially protected against any attack on their honour, in particular against rape, enforced prostitution, or any form of indecent assault. Without prejudice to the provisions relating to their state of health, age and sex, all protected persons shall be treated with the same consideration by the Party to the conflict in whose power they are, without any adverse distinction based, in particular, on race, religion or political opinion. However, the Parties to the conflict may take such measures of control and security in regard to protected persons as may be necessary as a result of the war. Geneva convention is for POW's and civilians in a war zone. Yemen is not a war zone, but is an area the US can conduct counter-terror operations in with the permission of the government.

You may have been thinking of the Hague Conventions (the use of weapons in war or use Jus In Bello) Even so, you have to decide if he (awlaki) was a non-combatant, or a combatant in essence despite his lack of a gun pointed at someone.

The Constitution guarantees American citizens certain rights. (Due Process). I am not aware of the right to actively plan and prosecute the deaths of your fellow citizens. I just can't buy the constitutional argument.

If you can produce case law or a legal precedent that outlaws the use of force against TVNGO's, I will change my tune. I am just not aware of any.

 

AMERICAN-AMERICAN

4:03 PM ET

October 10, 2011

LAW OF WAR

AMEN TO THAT TERRY BRENNAN. He WAS an American Citizen but left and joined forces with an NGO so he did forfeit his right and it is an act of treason. Goodbye awlaki.

 

AMERICAN-AMERICAN

4:26 PM ET

October 10, 2011

ANYWAY

I think he is a failed President too, but I applaud him for Osama's demise and Awlaki's. Just let the military do what it needs to do with proper authorization to take out the key elements now so it doesnt bite us back later. If they didnt know what they were doing they wouldnt be there. Let them do their job so we can wrap this up and they can come back home. Just think of all the things/missions/black ops that the public doesnt know about. It takes an act of Congress to move an Army, but a whisper from the Commander in Chief to send out some Marines. That was one of Ronald Reagan's passions, I know because I had the pleasure of meeting him and talking to him at Parris Island, SC back in 1986. One of the greatest speeches I have ever heard. And we loved his protect our flag and our country no matter what attitude.

 

HIPPOFEET

4:32 PM ET

October 10, 2011

The article

My problem with Mr. Ackerman's article is not "the jerry-built" system in place to deal with actions against NGO's and known individuals associated with them. We will never come up with a perfect solution for this that covers every instance. The US and current and following administrations will struggle with this. There will be more laws and policy, some good, some bad. My problem is this article is reporting on reporting by someone else. There are no papers from the administration to wave, no former government employee speaking the painful (but at least honorable) truth. Before I believe anything, I have to decide if I believe Mr. Ackerman. From my understanding, the "mid-level NSC staffers" are people given the job by the Administration to decipher intelligence, gather proof, and make a call. Is that the responsibility of the POTUS? He cannot delegate those tasks to the very people in the very organization created to do that work? I don't think any one man would have the time to track, in real time, ponder the implications of, and deal with every violent NGO, let alone individuals. That's not realistic. I need to re-read the article, I did not see the "illegality" as defined by the constitution, a congressional act (not law itself), or a Judicial ruling (meaning now its law).

 

DEBORAALIMENTA

7:14 PM ET

October 10, 2011

I think

i Agree in
Yeah that's strange, i think americans are kinda brainwashed, i mean they should wear bombers and do sports instead of thinking that kind of things...Thanks for Work!
Ar Condicionado Imoveis A Sexy Alimentacao Ar Automotivo

 

WEBQES

10:25 PM ET

October 10, 2011

Mr4t

bende sizlerden gordugum gibi belirtyiyorum bakiretr seklinde olmasi mumkun

 

AMERICAN-AMERICAN

10:22 AM ET

October 11, 2011

Mr4t

Are you really turkish or fluent in turkish, that made no sense

 

HOLLYRYE

9:55 PM ET

October 19, 2011

Thought crimes

I agree with this. I think the whole idea of being at war with an idea was the first mistake, but now we have enabled the worst kind of abuse in our system and have lost our rights as citizens. Furthermore its scary how easy it is for the government to recruit support from the people for such acts. container gardening

 

YARINSIZ

12:14 PM ET

November 5, 2011

I agree we should not

I agree we should not differentiate between a citizen or a foreigner. I believe we should treat everyone the same. If a US citizen is suspected of belonging to a terrorist group, the US should kill him/her as soon as possible regardless of his/her being an Islamic Radicalist or a white supremacist or his/her residency in Yemen or seslichat South Dakota. People like bin Laden are as dangerous as those like Timothy McVeigh.