The Coming Collapse of China: 2012 Edition

I admit it: My prediction that the Communist Party would fall by 2011 was wrong. Still, I'm only off by a year.

BY GORDON G. CHANG | DECEMBER 29, 2011

In the middle of 2001, I predicted in my book, The Coming Collapse of China, that the Communist Party would fall from power in a decade, in large measure because of the changes that accession to the World Trade Organization (WTO) would cause. A decade has passed; the Communist Party is still in power. But don't think I'm taking my prediction back.

Why has China as we know it survived? First and foremost, the Chinese central government has managed to avoid adhering to many of its obligations made when it joined the WTO in 2001 to open its economy and play by the rules, and the international community maintained a generally tolerant attitude toward this noncompliant behavior. As a result, Beijing has been able to protect much of its home market from foreign competitors while ramping up exports.

By any measure, China has been phenomenally successful in developing its economy after WTO accession -- returning to the almost double-digit growth it had enjoyed before the near-recession suffered at the end of the 1990s. Many analysts assume this growth streak can continue indefinitely. For instance, Justin Yifu Lin, the World Bank's chief economist, believes the country can grow for at least two more decades at 8 percent, and the International Monetary Fund predicts China's economy will surpass America's in size by 2016.

Don't believe any of this. China outperformed other countries because it was in a three-decade upward supercycle, principally for three reasons. First, there were Deng Xiaoping's transformational "reform and opening up" policies, first implemented in the late 1970s. Second, Deng's era of change coincided with the end of the Cold War, which brought about the elimination of political barriers to international commerce. Third, all of this took place while China was benefiting from its "demographic dividend," an extraordinary bulge in the workforce.

Yet China's "sweet spot" is over because, in recent years, the conditions that created it either disappeared or will soon. First, the Communist Party has turned its back on Deng's progressive policies. Hu Jintao, the current leader, is presiding over an era marked by, on balance, the reversal of reform. There has been, especially since 2008, a partial renationalization of the economy and a marked narrowing of opportunities for foreign business. For example, Beijing blocked acquisitions by foreigners, erected new barriers like the "indigenous innovation" rules, and harassed market-leading companies like Google. Strengthening "national champion" state enterprises at the expense of others, Hu has abandoned the economic paradigm that made his country successful.

Second, the global boom of the last two decades ended in 2008 when markets around the world crashed. The tumultuous events of that year brought to a close an unusually benign period during which countries attempted to integrate China into the international system and therefore tolerated its mercantilist policies. Now, however, every nation wants to export more and, in an era of protectionism or of managed trade, China will not be able to export its way to prosperity like it did during the Asian financial crisis in the late 1990s. China is more dependent on international commerce than almost any other nation, so trade friction -- or even declining global demand -- will hurt it more than others. The country, for instance, could be the biggest victim of the eurozone crisis.

Third, China, which during its reform era had one of the best demographic profiles of any nation, will soon have one of the worst. The Chinese workforce will level off in about 2013, perhaps 2014, according to both Chinese and foreign demographers, but the effect is already being felt as wages rise, a trend that will eventually make the country's factories uncompetitive. China, strangely enough, is running out of people to move to cities, work in factories, and power its economy. Demography may not be destiny, but it will now create high barriers for growth.

At the same time that China's economy no longer benefits from these three favorable conditions, it must recover from the dislocations -- asset bubbles and inflation -- caused by Beijing's excessive pump priming in 2008 and 2009, the biggest economic stimulus program in world history (including $1 trillion-plus in 2009 alone). Since late September, economic indicators -- electricity consumption, industrial orders, export growth, car sales, property prices, you name it -- are pointing toward either a flatlining or contracting economy. Money started to leave the country in October, and Beijing's foreign reserves have been shrinking since September.

As a result, we will witness either a crash or, more probably, a Japanese-style multi-decade decline. Either way, economic troubles are occurring just as Chinese society is becoming extremely restless. It is not only that protests have spiked upwards -- there were 280,000 "mass incidents" last year according to one count -- but that they are also increasingly violent as the recent wave of uprisings, insurrections, rampages and bombings suggest. The Communist Party, unable to mediate social discontent, has chosen to step-up repression to levels not seen in two decades. The authorities have, for instance, blanketed the country's cities and villages with police and armed troops and stepped up monitoring of virtually all forms of communication and the media. It's no wonder that, in online surveys, "control" and "restrict" were voted the country's most popular words for 2011.  

That tough approach has kept the regime secure up to now, but the stability it creates can only be short-term in China's increasingly modernized society, where most people appear to believe a one-party state is no longer appropriate. The regime has clearly lost the battle of ideas.

Today, social change in China is accelerating. The problem for the country's ruling party is that, although Chinese people generally do not have revolutionary intentions, their acts of social disruption can have revolutionary implications because they are occurring at an extraordinarily sensitive time. In short, China is much too dynamic and volatile for the Communist Party's leaders to hang on. In some location next year, whether a small village or great city, an incident will get out of control and spread fast. Because people across the country share the same thoughts, we should not be surprised they will act in the same way. We have already seen the Chinese people act in unison: In June 1989, well before the advent of social media, there were protests in roughly 370 cities across China, without national ringleaders.

This phenomenon, which has swept North Africa and the Middle East this year, tells us that the nature of political change around the world is itself changing, destabilizing even the most secure-looking authoritarian governments. China is by no means immune to this wave of popular uprising, as Beijing's overreaction to the so-called "Jasmine" protests this spring indicates. The Communist Party, once the beneficiary of global trends, is now the victim of them.

So will China collapse? Weak governments can remain in place a long time. Political scientists, who like to bring order to the inexplicable, say that a host of factors are required for regime collapse and that China is missing the two most important of them: a divided government and a strong opposition.

At a time when crucial challenges mount, the Communist Party is beginning a multi-year political transition and therefore ill-prepared for the problems it faces. There are already visible splits among Party elites, and the leadership's sluggish response in recent months -- in marked contrast to its lightning-fast reaction in 2008 to economic troubles abroad -- indicates that the decision-making process in Beijing is deteriorating. So check the box on divided government.

And as for the existence of an opposition, the Soviet Union fell without much of one. In our substantially more volatile age, the Chinese government could dissolve like the autocracies in Tunisia and Egypt. As evident in this month's "open revolt" in the village of Wukan in Guangdong province, people can organize themselves quickly -- as they have so many times since the end of the 1980s. In any event, a well-oiled machine is no longer needed to bring down a regime in this age of leaderless revolution.

Not long ago, everything was going well for the mandarins in Beijing. Now, nothing is. So, yes, my prediction was wrong. Instead of 2011, the mighty Communist Party of China will fall in 2012. Bet on it.

STR/AFP/Getty Images

 SUBJECTS: CHINA, EAST ASIA
 

Gordon G. Chang is the author of The Coming Collapse of China and a columnist at Forbes.com. Follow him on Twitter @GordonGChang.

MESS_MEDIA

9:18 PM ET

December 29, 2011

Yeah, I was wrong when I

Yeah, I was wrong when I predicted that the world would end on May 21, 2011. It should end on October 21.

-Harold Camping

 

JOESMITHII

2:44 AM ET

December 30, 2011

I guess, sooner or later,

I guess, sooner or later, Gordon will get used to admitting wrong predictions. Fortunately, 2012 is around the corner, we don't need to wait for 10 more years.

 

OLI RIKOVA

4:07 AM ET

December 31, 2011

LOL

I think the prediction is quite laughable but it's kind of like the dot-com driven economic crash - the naysayers eventually come out ok because the market cycles always turn. So keep at it Gordon, you'll be proven true... eventually! Luckily you're not punting on US military intervention in China to effect the change, in which case you're definitely going to be waiting another century.

 

CAMILLON

7:43 PM ET

December 31, 2011

the future

no one knows the future except god so just give it up fool

 

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7:55 PM ET

January 2, 2012

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SHARA

3:46 AM ET

January 3, 2012

I agree with you. hahaha!

I agree with you. hahaha!

 

PAULIO655

5:44 PM ET

January 3, 2012

Fukuyama

Please visit my blof for ana analysis of the End of History
http://irblogger.weebly.com/

 

RCHIAN

3:17 PM ET

January 4, 2012

My prediction

You can bet on my prediction: Gordon Chang will make such predictions again and again.

 

NIHAO-SALAM

4:00 AM ET

January 6, 2012

Devil Prediction: China Will Collapse in 2012

Propaganda based False predictions by Gordon, his devil desire actually is not going to happen actually.

Chinese people have different DNA unlike American goofs.Chinese have survived utmost sufferings and hard times through out history posed to them either by White Colonialists in 1840-60 or some one else. They faced Japanese Invasion, Chinese countered challenges of Isolation by American Allies.But Great people of China have rose to the level of Super Power under the leadership of Communist Party of China.

Today China is 5th Global Investor, investing in cash-hungry EUROPE, developing Africa, helping emerging Latin America, China partnering with Asia and beyond.All this cooperation is extended under the CPC leadership.

China is giving development projects to World unlike USA which gave WARs to grow and boost its own Weapons business.

China is bringing new model of living, trading and investing based on Harmony unlike USA whose policies are based on Hatred.Mr.Gordon like thinkers seem spokesmen of all Devil Policy Makers, who want to destroy the peace of this World by creating chaos and conflicts.

CPC's China has never waged War in history but USA waged wars in every corner of World.so Who should collapse? the Peace makers or War Mongers.

writer is Founder&Editor of Magazine on Pakistan China Relations,
called Nihao-Salam. www.nihao-salam.com

 

PUBLICUS

4:42 AM ET

January 6, 2012

Beware

Ogden Nash once wrote to "beware the man whose God is in the skies."

I read NIHAO-SALAM and beware the Chinese who see six billion "devils" surrounding China, a world outside of China that is full of barbarians.

 

JIM NNNALSH

1:05 PM ET

January 6, 2012

Your comments include things

Your comments include things that are blatantly wrong. Chinese and Americans have different DNA? I've got some news for you. We have no ethnic identity as Americans. Our DNA is all over the place and includes Han Chinese DNA in large amounts. Which brings me to a second point. Saying Chinese DNA is the same and excluding the minority groups kind of makes you sound imperialistic. Which means you are wrong about China never waging wars. If you think the Tibetans and Uigers have the same DNA or that they aren't ruled by force you are kidding yourself. This article has a lot of major flaws. You don't need to make up stuff to get anyone to agree with you. When facts are enough to make a good point, I suggest you stick to them.

 

HB209

2:48 PM ET

January 9, 2012

I'm not sure what's going on

I'm not sure what's going on inside China politicaly but from I do see, it doesn't seem like they'll be collapsing no time soon. All I hear is about China rising and soon to be the #1 super power. nook vs kindle microsoft tablet

 

FP2011

12:57 AM ET

January 21, 2012

It is all about the cycles

Like another post indicates, it is about a cycle, so eventually something will happen that will bring the prediction to come true.

 

APPLESAUCE

10:08 PM ET

December 29, 2011

I'll take your bet

with all due respect mr. chang, you have argued that china has been on the brink for more than a decade now just what is your definition of being on the brink? close to collapse? decades from collapse? centuries from collapse? because you clearly assume that the chinese government has not changed its ways.

quote "Not long ago, everything was going well for the mandarins in Beijing. Now, nothing is. So, yes, my prediction was wrong. Instead of 2011, the mighty Communist Party of China will fall in 2012. Bet on it. " unquote

i would very much like to take you up on this bet, i am willing put-up everything i own, as i believe this is a far safer investment than any stocks or government bonds.

 

APPLESAUCE

10:11 PM ET

December 29, 2011

ps

ps i was reminded of Harold Camping while reading this

 

MICHELLE SUMMERS

3:09 PM ET

December 30, 2011

Collapse, what collapse?

Sorry Gordon but I agree with Applesauce and just don't see it happening... yet. It's unlikely that something equivalent to the Arab Spring would happen in China right now. For that, there needs to be significant dissent in the masses and I'm not sure that's really there right now. China is booming.

I agree with Mark Newham in one of the later comments to a point - the media has to show signs of change first. At the very least, there needs to be a means for the masses to communicate with each other and organize without fear. The foreign community panders to China - from trade, 'concessions' on human rights issues and even foreign policy decisions (e.g. the refusal of a Dalai Lama visa by South Africa earlier this year). China has power and the foreign community is not giving any signs that it intends to increase pressure against it.

So if both the citizens and foreign nations are apparently useless in effecting any sort of change, how can one conclude that such change is inevitable... and that within the next year? Sorry, but that just doesn't make any logical sense.

 

BENJAMINFRANKLIN

4:28 PM ET

December 31, 2011

A few little countries

A few little countries do not equal 'the international community.' Most of the world does not pander to the CCPs persecution of the Dalai Lama, just a few small client states of China.

 

JIM NNNALSH

1:08 PM ET

January 6, 2012

I'll take that bet too. Shall

I'll take that bet too. Shall we say $5000 says the communist party will still be in power in a year? Anyone want that action? Didn't think so.

 

XTIANGODLOKI

10:18 PM ET

December 29, 2011

What's the point of betting if there are no consequences?

"So, yes, my prediction was wrong. Instead of 2011, the mighty Communist Party of China will fall in 2012. Bet on it. "

The thing is that China naysayers have been consistently wrong over the years. Yet most of them are still being paraded in the Western media as "China experts" as long as they say things which most people want to hear.

China definitely has its share of problems and Chang pointed out some of them correctly. However nowhere did Chang provide any evidence as to why would China collapse next year as opposed to 2016, or 2020. The fact of the matter is that there are very few world leaders who actually want China to collapse, because in addition to economic turmoil there would be political uncertainty. In such an environment China won't collapse.

 

PUBLICUS

5:25 AM ET

December 30, 2011

The world did fine during China chaos, circa 1830-2011

China has been the poster les enfants terribles of chaos from the first third of the 19th century to the present yet the world has done just fine, thanks. Global civilization survived two huge industrial world wars and several severe economic downturns, to include the Great Depression, while China was in complete chaos and nothing but chaos. Who today will miss the RMB, the CCP-PRC State-Corporate-Military Complex, the dictators and censors of the CCP - the list goes on?

Our focus over the next decade concerns the Eurozone and the EU itself, the nuclear obsessions of the ayatollas in Iran and the ratification of democracy in Russia. The demise of the PRC as a wholly owned subsidiary of the CCP is not high on the list of concerns on Wall Street, at the Pentagon, or to the WTO, IMF, World Bank, UN et al.

Gordon Chang is fundamentally right about the PRC. Gordo simply has a blind spot that causes him to believe he can divine the exact year of the CCP's doom and demise. We recognize the blind spot in this regard is a minor distraction.

I recently returned from three years in the People's Republic where (circumventing censors via the Google Unblock and Uncensor system) I read Mr. Chang's Forbes magazine column that focuses exclusively on the CCP-PRC, so I would add to this discourse some from his Dec 25th piece which I believe is even more cogent than his accurate fundamentals and insights above.

Mr. Chang wrote:

"Those in control of the Chinese economy view the state sector as their primary source of power and patronage and perceive needed reforms as 'political suicide.' After all, a literal translation of the name of the Communist Party is 'the Party of Public Assets,' so that organization must protect state enterprises—the country’s 'public assets'—to maintain political legitimacy.

"Because China will not be able to ramp up exports or eliminate the 'triple imbalances,' it is sure to be snared in what economists call 'the middle-income trap,' where growth stalls before a moderately well-off population becomes rich. China has already reaped all the easy growth that comes with starting from a low base, and now it needs to, among other things, encourage consumption, allow the renminbi to float, flatten the social structure, promote democratization, remove restrictions on labor, adopt the rule of law, and strengthen the social safety net. The Party will not make substantial progress toward any of these goals—with the possible exception of the last one—until it adopts fundamentally different political and economic models.

"In the meantime......triple imbalances are getting larger because Party leaders have ruled out the structural changes necessary to lay the foundation for the next multi-decade round of growth. So, despite what the World Bank [chief] economist [Justin Lin] hopes, China will not become the next Japan, South Korea, or Taiwan. It’s much more likely to resemble the trapped Venezuela and Argentina—not to mention the former Soviet Union."

To which I say good riddance. Chinese culture is the culture of the dictatorship of emperors and dynasties of emperors, and now the dictatorship of the CCP. The Chinese mind is an ancient, i.e., simple mind, to the point that the Chinese language still hasn't any alphabet.

XTIANGODLOKI you are correct to assert that Mr. Chang does "not provide any evidence as to why would China collapse next year as opposed to 2016 or 2020." He doesn't need to. US and other global corporate investors are preparing for major reversals to the economics and finances of the PRC in the target year 2016. That is because we are already seeing the manifestations of collapse in China and continuation of a thousands year old Chinese tradition - chaos, complete chaos and nothing but chaos. History shows that that's no skin off our backs.

 

GODFREE

12:17 AM ET

December 31, 2011

State-owned Enterprises

Neoliberal ideology demands that State and Business be not only separate and independent, but that Business be the dominant partner. Business--especially in America--is notoriously short term in its thinking. We are all suffering the consequences of this fundamentalist paradigm and our suffering is intensifying.

The pragmatic Chinese currently feel that if the State is run by honest, competent people then it is best for it to be the dominant partner. Singapore, incidentally, has a similar view.

This arrangement has the following advantages:
1. A more cohesive society and therefore..
2. A more flexible society, which leads to
3. A more just and equitable society, which willingly makes room for..
4. A longer planning horizon, which results in
5. An 85% trustworthiness rating from the Chinese electorate (Edelman, et al.) and
6. An 86% approval of Government policies (Pew, UofM, et al.)

When any of our Western governments have ratings that approach these levels then they should feel free to offer advice to the Chinese. Until that happy day, we should not miss a single opportunity to shut up.

 

GAZHAYES

7:30 AM ET

December 31, 2011

Godfree, you obviously

Godfree, you obviously haven't spent much time in China... lol

 

BENJAMINFRANKLIN

4:33 PM ET

December 31, 2011

Internal collapse

The internal collapse of a corrupt dictatorship does not happen because outsiders want for it to happen. It happens because the instruments of repression grow weak while simultaneously, the public perception of the legitimacy and competence of the government dwindles. The advent of electronic communication is contributing to the weakness of the instruments of repression, because many clever people outside of government figure out how to circumvent the government's control of the system.

Democratic countries do not experience this phenomenon, because elections serve the same purpose, without the chaos and sometimes violence of a revolution.

 

TAIKUN

3:10 PM ET

January 30, 2012

What??

"To which I say good riddance. Chinese culture is the culture of the dictatorship of emperors and dynasties of emperors, and now the dictatorship of the CCP. The Chinese mind is an ancient, i.e., simple mind, to the point that the Chinese language still hasn't any alphabet."

I'm sorry to inform you of this, but that's plain ignorance.

You can't just simplify any human group to the point of saying that "everyone is like this...". Besides, your point is based on a very small perception, as in a person wearing the wrong glasses, only being able to identify a single tree in the middle of the jungle. That the Chinese have had emperors and kings... many countries have had them and it doesn't say much about their peoples. And even when it does, people and cultures tend to change over time, even if you deny to perceive it.

I wasn't going to comment on the part that the "Chinese language still hasn't any alphabet", because it was extremely laughable. In case you didn't notice, it's called a logographic alphabet.

Narrow minds are very prone to make big mistakes, so be very careful.

 

BIG BOY

10:35 PM ET

December 29, 2011

Is Gordon describing China or the US?

The US currently has mass protests in the "Occupy" movements around the country. It started as a Occupy Wall Street and eventually morphed into a country wide response.

The US currently has a strongly divided government as can be seen in the gridlock that is occurring in Congress and pretty much everywhere else on the political seen with Republicans and Democrats at each others throats.

Also, the Soviet Union collapsed because of many factors. Demographically, at the height of the Soviet Union only 45% of the population were ethnically Russian, and this meant the keeping the power of the majority was a challenge. By 2045, it is predicted that the white population will be a minority in the US, with the other "minorities" becoming the "majority". The Soviet Union overspent on it military, with a massive portion of the economy dependent on the military-industrial complex to feed it. The US by comparison is militarily overstretched, with huge obligations in every portion of the world. Third, the Soviet Union collapsed mainly because of Mikhail Gorbachev. Gorbachev let the Soviet Union collapse without mobilizing any forces, he watched as the empire collapse on its own. Had another leader that had the character of say Stalin or today's Putin been at the helm, the Soviet Union would probably still be alive today. Now the US does not have this same problem.

Now Gordon also mentioned exports. Well the US has an export deficit with the whole world and an enormous budget deficit also. Gordon mentioned that China lived through a great era but the same is true of the US post-WWII as it lived through one of the greatest boom eras (i.e. 1950-1970 hence the term "Baby Boomers"), it also lived through one of the greatest eras in borrowing (post 1987 stock market crash) when Allen Greenspan kept the interest rates too low for way too long. We also have the current post 2008 subprime loan crash, with the Federal Reserve keeping real interests negative.

Now is the US going to collapse? I don't think so.

 

CONCONS1224

12:58 AM ET

December 30, 2011

One Big Difference

True, but the one crucial difference between the two countries is that China has a highly repressive government. The US doesn't. That would be the primary factor in a Chinese collapse: popular discontent. The US has discontent also, true, because of the economic crisis, but the government certainly doesn't treat it's own people the way China does. With a slowdown in the economy and the example of the Arab Spring, is it not possible this discontent could swell to much greater proportions in the coming year and force changes in the government or lead to the fall of the Communist Party? The collapse of the Communist Party, not necessarily the Chinese economy, is certainly possible.

 

PUBLICUS

6:02 AM ET

December 30, 2011

People and sheeple

The US body politic is comprised of vibrant people as opposed to the population of the People's Republic which, accurately stated, consists of carefully cloned silent and herded sheeple. The US and the PRC are apples and oranges. Trying to compare the two is folly. Stark contrast is the reality.

During my recent three years in southernmost China, in Guangdong province, which is the 3rd most prosperous area after Beijing and Shanghai, college and university age learners speak of having an independent republic based on - horrors or horrors to Beijing - the Taiwan model. Taiwan is a stone's throw off the coast of Guangdong province. Each has made its own way in Chinese history before. Guangdong's two major cities, Shenzhen and Guangzhou are essentially the old Canton where foreigners traded, lived and worked throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, respectively. The two urban centers continue to host many foreigners in the current global economy and Guangdong has many new and shinny universities which build on the traditions of the respected Sun Yat Sen University in Shenzhen.

These same visionary Chinese of Guangdong, however, well know the long history of absolute rulers in China. The cold fact is the CCP will slaughter 1 000 000 or 10 000 000 - or more - in order to retain power, money, control. The CCP in Beijing consists of the same gang that supports the DPRK. Guangzhou City is the site of a huge army garrison and one of the navy's fleets fans throughout the Pearl River Basin that nourishes Shenzhen and Guangzhou especially. Several Chinese friends asked me while I was there whether, when push comes to shove in the PRC, I could sponsor them as political refugees in the United States because the CCP will hunt down and kill every radical who dares to rise up against it.

The year 2012 is definitely too soon. But 2016 give or take a year or two seems to have a certain ring to it.

 

POLITICZ

3:54 PM ET

December 30, 2011

Laughable

"The US body politic is comprised of vibrant people as opposed to the population of the People's Republic which, accurately stated, consists of carefully cloned silent and herded sheeple"

Vibrant wouldn't be the word I would choose to describe the Republican candidates that we've all seen recently, but I guess it fits somewhat. But one does have to wonder how much of a drone or "sheeple" you'd have to be to actually support them.

Sure it's apples and oranges: on the one hand the Chinese are silent; on the other the Americans are just plain ignorant and blind to their plight.

 

LIBERTINE

5:34 PM ET

December 30, 2011

@POLITICZ

Another silent admirer of DRONE-BAMA?
Are Chinese people really silent or perhaps the CCP's tops effectively muzzle them? I am deeply puzzled where all those fellow-travelers come from these days. Oh I am sorry, today you are the standard-bearers of objectiveness. And objectively speaking the Chinese are not compatible with democracy. Right? Is that what you truly think? The history will prove you wrong. Maybe not in 2012, but for sure in the near future.
PS. Great article Mr. Chang!

 

GAZHAYES

7:36 AM ET

December 31, 2011

@politicz You can't compare

@politicz

You can't compare the US to China from an armchair in the US. Be thankful for what you have, most Chinese would kill to be in your position in the oh so bad US. At leaat you can buy things like milk, meat, water, etc and it wont kill you or your family.

 

REACH-SONG

11:54 PM ET

December 29, 2011

hope it will be true

communist party China is evil country, where common people have been torn since 1949.every normal chinese hope Coummunist party China can collapse as soon as possible

 

POLITICZ

3:58 PM ET

December 30, 2011

An interesting finding

An interesting finding indicates Fox viewers are less knowledgeable about world events than those who don't watch news at all. You should consider switching to something with more facts.

 

STRAWDOG

3:19 AM ET

January 1, 2012

don't include me

@REACH-SONG every normal chinese hope Coummunist party China can collapse as soon as possible,as a normal Chinese I don't believe your a outsider's saying.I want a stable and wealthy life as you are enjoying, not in a chaotic society. Of cource,CPC also need to reform and become better.

 

GENIUSEHAN

11:48 AM ET

January 2, 2012

your argument is based on your bias?

who told you every common chinese people hope the ccp collapse?Is that what you wish or the wide fact you investigate for years within most China's territory?Half Chinese lived in rural area,have you asked for their attitude about the ccp?If you say yes,show us the evidence what you get.If you say no,I SUGGEST you shut up.YOU are not authorized to express what Chinese people want and need in the name of EVERY COMMON CHINESE.
WHEN china collapse,who would benefit from this,figure out this question,is much more important than any comment here.As one of common chinese,it's the first time that I leave my comment on FP site.So happy to see so much people care about China,my homeland.I FIND some people show their heartfelt hostility on China,likewise the author of this article,this article is not so much a prediction as a naked curse.By the way,some data quoted is wrong,however the author pretend to ignore it.
China's fate is determinated in hands of Chinese people,whatever you wish,you hope,you curse,and so forth,just your subjective aspiration.China undergoes five thousand years,would China collapse in foreigners curse,history will teach your guys,I am not interested in teaching silly kids.Some guys have travelled in China,show their friendship when they meet native Chinese peple ,in effect,they are just in search of those trifles which could demonstrate what they believe in all the time.Is it called hypocrite in English?Very funny to visit USA's website to know what you think from the bottem of your hearts.Half angel,half devil,but someone has more devil essence indeed,doesn't he?

 

NIHAO-SALAM

3:55 AM ET

January 6, 2012

Devil Prediction: China Will Collapse

Propaganda based False predictions by Gordon, his devil desire actually is not going to happen actually.

Chinese people have different DNA unlike American goofs.Chinese have survived utmost sufferings and hard times through out history posed to them either by White Colonialists in 1840-60 or some one else. They faced Japanese Invasion, Chinese countered challenges of Isolation by American Allies.But Great people of China have rose to the level of Super Power under the leadership of Communist Party of China.

Today China is 5th Global Investor, investing in cash-hungry EUROPE, developing Africa, helping emerging Latin America, China partnering with Asia and beyond.All this cooperation is extended under the CPC leadership.

China is giving development projects to World unlike USA which gave WARs to grow and boost its own Weapons business.

China is bringing new model of living, trading and investing based on Harmony unlike USA whose policies are based on Hatred.Mr.Gordon like thinkers seem spokesmen of all Devil Policy Makers, who want to destroy the peace of this World by creating chaos and conflicts.

CPC's China has never waged War in history but USA waged wars in every corner of World.so Who should collapse? the Peace makers or War Mongers.

writer is Founder&Editor of Magazine on Pakistan China Relations,
called Nihao-Salam www.nihao-salam.com

 

ISITTRUE

4:11 AM ET

January 6, 2012

Reach-song, how do you even

Reach-song, how do you even know "every normal Chinese hope Communist party China can collapse..." and who authorise you the power to represent all normal Chinese... I bet you are not a Chinese who is envy with the economic success of China and the spending power of the Chinese people, in view of the American economic downfall and Euro crisis...

 

PUBLICUS

4:50 AM ET

January 6, 2012

Devils and more devils

GENIUSEHAN and NIHAO-SALAM keep seeing "devils" and barbarians everywhere except in their flowery and Heavenly Middle Kingdom. I recognize this xenophobic and mean mindset from my recent three years living and working in the PRC. The Chinese, more specifically the Han, have survived 5000 years because they are mean. The Chinese are mean to each other but now want to export and globalize their inherent meanness.

 

PANYEE

12:47 AM ET

December 30, 2011

This article is SHIT

I cannot believe that the prestigous Foreign Policy could manage to publish this article on its front page. It's ridiculous. I've been to some western European countries and believe that China is not so bad. With another two decades, China will be quite prosperous, but even today, I don't think China is an authoritarian country. Those who say so must be manipulated by some ill-intentioned Western capitalist foundations that cannot wait to take advantage of China's collapse. I like Western air quality (although it used to be worse than China's at some point in history), but I don't like its food and service. Maybe my impression on the West is superficial, but I hope that China can do the same to them as revenge: turn Europe and America into communist states!

 

MJKT

3:07 AM ET

December 30, 2011

Chinese nationalism at its finest?

There's a huge difference between an authoritarian government collapsing and China collapsing. I don't think anyone wishes China would collapse. I think many people wish China could have a free, democratic government. We've seen it can work in Taiwan; I only hope it can one day work in Mainland China. But the thing I worry about even more than the current authoritarian government is the sometimes extremely nationalistic nature of Chinese citizens. Nationalism is probably the most dangerous thing to the continued existence of our species, and the Chinese can be masters at it.

 

THE SWEDE

3:21 AM ET

December 30, 2011

.....

First of all, you wrote: "I don't think China is an authoritarian country". I belive that you can shorten this sentence by removing "China is authoritarian country" and still prove your point.

Second, are you a member of the Communist Party? If so, then i belive in Mr.Changs prediction.

Third, this article is not shit, you are:)

 

FREETRADER

9:55 PM ET

December 30, 2011

LOL

Wow. Whatever the merits of Mr. Chang's analysis (and most of it is pretty spot-on) the entertainment value of reading a card-carrying member China's CP write without irony that "China is not an authoritarian state" is priceless.

Keep up the good work, Panyee.

 

CLUELESS

10:54 AM ET

December 31, 2011

can't think

peanut country

 

MARCEL WIEDENBRUGGE

1:13 AM ET

December 30, 2011

Will the communist party collapse in 2012?

I don't think China nor the CPC will collapse in 2012, but obviously China is not immune to what is happening in the rest of the world as some domestic developments (rising labor costs, real estate bubble, NPL's, etc.). However, the inward focus of China is something that may cause companies to more look for opportunities outside China as well.

 

ZERGE

3:11 AM ET

December 30, 2011

Not collapse, but peter out

I personally don't think China will collapse, but I do believe its extraordinary economic growth will peter out way before it becomes the superpower everybody expects it to be.
I remember back in the 80s when Japan was going to conquer the world. Never happened, they just ran out of steam.
And yes, the US has plenty of problems, but it's one helluva big steam engine.

 

YOSHIMICHI MORIYAMA

7:24 AM ET

December 30, 2011

Japan was not going to conquer the world

There were many Japanese who believed the mass media story of " the 21st century would be Japan's century." But there were many Japanese who did not believe it all, which was little reported; these people knew Japan was confronted with a lot of problems, domestic and foreign. Unnan City, Japan

 

CLUELESS

10:56 AM ET

December 31, 2011

hmmm

japan is only a US stooges how far can it go without master being mad

 

DELTA22

3:18 AM ET

December 30, 2011

m

There's nothing for us to do anyway but wait and see what happens.

 

MARK NEWHAM

4:55 AM ET

December 30, 2011

China Collapse Unlikely

As one who has voyaged to the heart of China's propaganda machine in a futile search for fundamental change in the PRC I could not agree less with Mr Chang's prediction.

If China was changing, so would be its media. It isn't. Two years at the state-run Xinhua news agency followed by a period with the Beijing Olympics News Service was enough to convince me that, if anything, the state's control over the media is becoming more, not less, stringent and repressive. And that without a relaxation of this control, the average Chinese will never really be aware of any 'revolt' anywhere within the country. Especially with the state clamping down on the internet.

So no, Mr Chang, you are wrong and I, for one, won't be putting my shirt on any significant change in 2012. Or, for that matter, anytime in the foreseeable future. The state will always ensure just enough crumbs fall from its table to keep the average Zhao on its side.

I base my assessment on my own experience of living cheek by jowl with the 'system' which I've summed up in my book 'Limp Pigs and the Five-Ring Circus'. Mr Chang could do worse than take a look at it (see summary and sample chapter on my website www.marknewham.com).

 

FORLORNEHOPE

7:26 AM ET

December 30, 2011

Chinese bureaucracy

For most of the last two thousand years China was ruled by a, theoretically, impartial bureaucracy. Entry was by performance in an examination and promotion, in principle, was by merit. Wealth could buy you education and coaching but on the day of the test, you were on you're own. The legitimacy of the mandarins, quite apart from the "mandate of heaven" was based on the fact that they had demonstrated the level of intellect required to govern. For most of that period China was the social, economic and technological leader of the world. Looking at the system that gave us George W Bush, Lehman Brothers and the Iraq war, perhaps the Chinese might think twice about the merits of democracy in providing what the enlightenment called "good government".

 

PUBLICUS

8:52 AM ET

December 30, 2011

Don't need to

The Chinese don't need to think twice about democracy because they never would think to have it in the first place. The Chinese are absolutely against democracy, which they view with absolute contempt and, to put it mildly, distain. The mainland Chinese never have known democracy, Sun Yat Sen not withstanding, and are entirely dismissive of democracy. The 2010 Nobel Peace Laureate Dr. Lui Xiaobo is in prison for 11 years because he advocates China's gradual and evolutionary transition to democracy - the PRC thus is the only government of the world currently to imprison a Nobel Peace Laureate (even Burma gave up on that in respect to Aung San Suu Kyi).

The "Mandate of Heaven" was always a farce which forced the Chinese peasantry, i.e., the rest of the population, to mass in the thousands with pitchforks to violently remove their leaders. That's in fact the Mandate of Hell as a way of citizens petitioning the government for redress of lawful grievances and to express themselves in society, the economy, the country's governance. The CCP anyway has build the largest and most repressive state "security" apparatus in history to preserve its censoring and punishing self in power, money and control.

The CCP is threatened most by Chinese democracy on Taiwan, in Hong Kong and in Singapore, not to mention all those Chinese-Americans who Beijing conveniently calls "overseas Chinese" as if they were exclusively Chinese always, anywhere, forever. The Chinese have learned quickly that Pres Obama's ambassador to Beijing, the Chinese-American Gary Locke, the first Asian elected governor of a state (Washington) is indeed American, not Chinese. That's a hard concept and lesson for the inbred, inborn and ingrown Chinese to take.

 

YOSHIMICHI MORIYAMA

7:47 AM ET

December 30, 2011

CCP is a dynasty

If we compare CCP to one dynasty of many which rose and fell in China, we will be able to understand China better.

We cannot say CCP will fall in 2012 or 2013. We cannot say it will muddle through and hold on for a few more decades, either. The Chinese regime which would follow its collapse would not be a democratic system. China lacks in its history and society cultural and political factors which go into the making of democracy or at least a Western-style democracy. A democratic China could not be predicted to be bound to be pro-Western or pro-U.S.A. as a democratic Egypt or Iran could not be pro-Western or pro-U.S.A. Unnan City, Japan

 

MANDREWSF

1:14 AM ET

January 10, 2012

And of course...

... Japanese military dictatorships are some of the most liberal, egalitarian and humane governments that have ever existed in history. I'm sure Takeda Shingen held a referendum with his peasants every time he decided to go on military campaigns.

 

GENEVIEVETOYD

7:54 AM ET

December 30, 2011

China Collapses in 2012?

I hope that Mesothelioma Lawsuits cases in China also collapse in 2012.

 

TOMHE

9:04 AM ET

December 30, 2011

Not a collaps

The condtions that the author pointed out are rather relevant to China's reality. But they are not causing a collaps, instead of a concern. The reason is simple, the conditions are moving rather slowly, not able to cause a sudden change; everybody in China is talking about it anyway. The model that the author used to predict the collapse of China is not workable. To predict somehting, you need a model; but a model should consists of a number of verifiable principles. The author does not have any verifiable principles. And he will not able to get it, because all collapses are different. China will collapse when nobody care about it.

 

ROBESPIERRE

9:52 AM ET

December 30, 2011

tapping my wrist

I had a huge trollface on as I read this article.

I agree with all of the commenters who basically equated this to the Harold Camping debacle this year.

Mr. Chang, don't clog up my beautiful FP front page with your pitiful request to push the end of times one year ahead.

 

BEREZKOV

12:41 PM ET

December 30, 2011

VERY DANGEROUS

In my opinion it is very dangerous and unconfident paper. The author talks about China's collapse. So, he suggest that now this state is on the strong position. So, why author "predicts" bad future for prosperous and stable country? Does this collapse will improve International Relations or wil democratizise China? It is quite clearly that China's economic slowdown will lead to the crisis in the all South East Asia region and will stimulate humanitarian disaster. Is the author politically adequate then he speak (so calmly)about new crisis in Asia? Is the author for the unstable world? If not, he must be more carefull with the foreseen in the IR . Chine is very subtile country, with subtile history and its own tradition. Fundemental elements of democration in their pure forms (as in the USA, or Great Britain) are new and sometimes alien for it's community. However, the forms of feudal terrany as we just saw in North Korea are not in the case of China. So, there should be find the balance between just mentioned forms of state-ruking (democracy or terrny), but not cardinal and drasticall changes.

 

MJKT

5:56 PM ET

December 30, 2011

China and the current government are not the same thing

I think the point is an economic slowdown (not necessarily an economic collapse) would make it more difficult for the current authoritarian government to hold on to power.

I think what the world would like to see is not the collapse of China but instead the collapse of the authoritarian government of China. It would be much easier to welcome China into the community of nations if China could be free AND prosperous much like the Chinese in Taiwan and to a lessor extent (on the free side) Hong Kong have shown us can be.

I think any time "collapse" and "China" are mentioned in the same thought Chinese nationalism kicks in and Chinese people become defensive. It becomes difficult for a nationalist mind to separate the idea of the current government of China from the greater idea and nation of China. A free, open, democratic, and prosperous China would be good for the world. A closed, censored, authoritarian China operating behind hidden motives is not good for the world.

Attacking the current Chinese government about the civil liberties of her people is not the same as attacking China or the people of China any more than an American voting for a different candidate for president than is currently in office is an attack on the United States.

 

CLUELESS

11:37 AM ET

December 31, 2011

it reader from the west like

it reader from the west like to hear something cheerful in this gloomy economic time. By saying communist government bad it reinforce the false sense of western government are great.

And it sell more papers, and reinforce that the west is superior even though it falling apart.

 

SQUEEK

7:58 PM ET

December 30, 2011

It seems far-fetched to say

It seems far-fetched to say that a slow-down in the CPC PB is an indication of 'divided government.' The Gang of Four and the period during and after Tianamin Square were eras of divided government. And even these were easily absorbed by the CPC.

If anything propels reform in China, it seems the local protests like those in Wukan will. I last read that the Provincial Government is now involved, showing a good communist better be able to respond to popular demands or risk his career.

It seems the Chinese are very interested in the 'rule of law' and demanding it in hot spots across the nation. But the CPC is in a different position than the Soviets or the Middle East autocrats.

It's ruled over a dynamic, growing economy for almost 3 decades. Why would the Chinese want to dismantle the government now? Reform, yes. But the end of the CPC in 2012? Forget it.

BTW, your analysis is rather cavalier in not addressing what would happen, who would rule and how if the CPC fell. You lack credibility

 

PUBLICUS

6:07 AM ET

January 4, 2012

Guangdong province is the most liberal

The three protests towns that have most recently attracted the attention of Western media are in the third richest province, Guangdong, which is adjacent to Hong Kong and Macau which themselves are wealthy Special Administrative Regions of the PRC. GD province is well known for distancing itself from a number of the dogmas of Beijing and for an independent streak that regularly causes migranes in Beijing. As in Hong Kong recently, for example, large demonstrations were also held in Guangzhou City, the capital of GD province, in defense of retaining the native Cantonese language in the face of Beijing's insistence all Chinese adopt Mandarin (Putonghua/Beijinghua) as the common language.

Guangdong provincial and municipal officials are notorious in Beijing for resisting mandates and dogmas that other provincial and municipal officials throughout China readily accept. While governors and mayors are appointed by Beijing, the CCP Central Committee and the PRC State Council take painful care to respect the relative autonomy of GD province lest too much resistance begin to fester. GD provincial officials decidedly prefer to utilize the velvet glove approach rather than to wield the hammer in dealing with protest, and GD residents would accept no less than the velvet glove.

Last year when a delegation of teachers spontaneously went to the Guangzhou City Hall/Palace Education Office to object to low pay and working conditions, GZ authorities received them calmly while simultaneously ordering all the gates of all schools locked to keep teachers contained. Teachers nonetheless got an additional yuan 100 a month and for good measure taxi drivers got an additional 0.5 yuan per fare. It's unusual for protest or grievances in GD province to rise to the level of being newsworthy in the West.

When Uighur migrant workers from the rebellious Muslim, Turkic speaking XinJiang Region in the westernmost PRC rioted in a factory in Guangdong province, Grandpa Wen himself left his seat as chairman of the Council of State to visit, calming the situation by presenting wage increases. Such is the pull of GD province in its wish to take the road less travelled. In XinJiang Region itself, PRC authorities last month shot and killed six Uighurs in only the most recent incident of Uighur resistance to Chinese imperial rule over the recently annexed land.

 

KAMATH

11:45 PM ET

December 30, 2011

Collapse of China.

Oh please don't say that Mr. Chang. I have spent oodles of dollars to learn how to kow tow and have registered in long distance learning courses of a well known Confucious Institute.

Will all be a waste?

 

LPC1998

2:39 AM ET

December 31, 2011

Re: Coming Collapse of China in 2012

Gordon Chang is pleading for another year to approve that he has been a prophet all along. He wants another year, in concert with others, to help push for a US-China war, be it a trade war or a cold or shooting one. A review of his relevant articles in 2011 would show his immense enthusiasm for the US Administration on issues concerning China to take actions that would result in such a war. Of course, such a war would raise sharply the probability of China’s collapse that is the fulfilment of his prophecy. Yes, the fulfilment of his prophecy is all that matters. Never mind, if it may cost a billion Chinese lives plus tens of millions of American lives plus hundreds of millions of others’.

He must be very excited about 2012, a year pregnant with possibilities, from the Middle-east turmoil and stand-offs, Eurozone disintegration, the election of an independent-minded party to power in Taiwan, the death of Kim Jong-il to the territorial disputes in the South China Sea that could lead to regional or global conflagrations, confrontations or economic meltdowns that could bring about China’s collapse.

The prospects for an autonomous “Chinese Spring” is indeed very slim as the prospective “peaceful protestors” in China would not be able to hire an air force to impose a “no-fly-zone” and to bomb out the PLA and PAP. Nor, in the 21st century, any of China’s neighbours will be willing to permit the use its territories for smuggling of arms to the “peaceful” protestors in China unlike in the 1960’s when arms could be smuggled across the borders with India and Nepal to the Tibetan separatists. So, as noted by some readers here, the talk about the collapse of the CCP as result of a “Chinese Spring” during 2012 in the article cannot be serious.

 

GREATPET

2:49 AM ET

December 31, 2011

After 1989 Tiananmen Square Protests

In 1989 many Western analysts predicted the collapse of CCP within months. How did that pan out?
Going back further, a mass famine in the 1950s didn't bring down the CCP. The cultural revolution in the 60s and 70s didn't.
My prediction: It takes a mass famine *today* to bring down the CCP.
In other words, it's not going to happen unless they screw up really big.

 

FRANKLAU

4:47 AM ET

December 31, 2011

Americans, you are always dreaming!

Just go to war with all countries in the world, and don't stop!

 

CIENDOLOR

5:53 AM ET

December 31, 2011

Boldness, Mr Chang, Boldness!

One can always dream of an open, politically liberalized, and free China. It would be the best thing for us, really. But, alas, if you are right, the tumult will be dramatic, with bad short term consequences for us all, particularly all the people that might die in the ensuing chaotic struggle.
I have this nagging feeling that collective nationalism - not party loyalty - will bring your prediction to naught. Chinese diasporas around the world (e.g. Malaysia, South Africa) have reliably shown they would rather dance with the devil they know than lay with the one they don't

 

ARAMSOGO

10:36 AM ET

December 31, 2011

Great Article Gordon and FP (sarcasm)

Thanks for giving the worst predictor of the Chinese economy in last decade some more space to sprout more nonsense.

I look forward to the following articles from FP (after all, these four people were much bigger luminaries when Gordon wrote his first dumb book):

Natural Gas Boom by Jeff Skilling
Hedge Fund Review with Bernie Madoff
State of Telecommunications with Bernie Ebbers
Cable Television's Future by John RIgas

 

MARTY MARTEL

10:51 AM ET

December 31, 2011

Don't bet on China to spawn a Gorbachev

While growth streak enjoyed by China after joining WTO in 2001 may not continue, Gordon Chang’s theory of collapse of Communist Party’s rule is not going to happen either.

With the backing of its powerful army, robust economy, ever-increasing foreign exchange reserves that are world’s envy and the world hooked to its cheap products, Communist Party is in absolute control of China and nobody on this earth is capable to shake it up, least of all the Chinese people - most of whom are enjoying the fruits of the phenomenal progress under Communist Party rule.

None of the reasons enumerated by Gordon Chang - renationalization, 2008 financial meltdown or demography - will undo already-achieved growth.

If Gordon Chang is forecasting Japan-style stagflation for China, then China won’t be alone. China will join the world where most of the countries are already experiencing that stagflation and worse. Authoritarian China will be far more able to handle that decline than democracies have.

Political transition will not divide Chinese government as Mr. Chang predicts - that transition will be smooth.

China will have to spawn a Gorbachev for China to disintegrate like Soviet Union which is NOT going to happen. So anybody betting on that is on a losing side.

 

POIUY

1:50 PM ET

December 31, 2011

Just may be not 2012

The conditions leading up to the collapse of PRC you described had been in existence for the last 5/6 years. Why will 2012 (or 2011) be the year ? I suspect the collapse will come, but why 2012 ? The collapse of the economy, or even major famine, didn't take CCP down. Why would it this time ? Millions died by prosecution during the Cultural Revolution, and nothing happened. Everyone just followed orders and return home, or go to assigned places peacefully, with empty stomach. But CCP was still in charge.

 

MELEKTAUS

2:52 PM ET

December 31, 2011

A sad state

Foreignpolicy was once a respected source of information but now it has come to the point they are just tabloid journal quality no better than the NYT or Washington Post, Time, Newsweek or CNN. I'm very concerned with the quality the articles have degenerated.

Anyway, if this Gordon Chang had any sense of integrity and shame he would have tucked tail and crawled back under the rock he came from after his failed predictions in 2000, 2001, 2002, or 2003. But I guess you can always fool some of the people some of the time and that is how he makes a living.

 

GREATPET

3:24 PM ET

December 31, 2011

In defense of Foreignpolicy

As opposed to NYT or CNN, most articles here are written by experts. Gordon Chang definitely knows much more than an average journalist. Unfortunately experts sometimes also go nuts, and there's nothing stopping it.

 

RUI

3:35 PM ET

December 31, 2011

Mr Chang is surely kidding

My take: Mr. Chang should reiterate that China will collapse every year. Before long, people will interpret it as running gag, and he will be appreciated for contributing valuable perspectives under the cloak of satire.

And if, eventually, he's proven "right" (whatever that means), he can say "Just kidding...NOT!"

 

MIKEHUNT07

7:33 PM ET

December 31, 2011

No way!

I don't see China's economy collapsing anytime soon. More like they will take lead in a world economy. tampa nursing jobsThat's what I see happening. Aren't they now trading their dollar with other countries for the first time? I think that is a sign of things to come. nurse resume help You are going to see a lot of other countries aligning themselves with Chins. Russia, Iran. I think China has won this game of Monopoly.

 

DAVID_GARCIAE69

10:57 PM ET

December 31, 2011

Mr. Chang Is foolish

I guess the author doesn't truly grasp the size and depth of Chinese society.

 

ADAM ONGE

11:57 PM ET

December 31, 2011

On the whole, America can

On the whole, America can blame itself for China’s rise. There are certainly various other factors, but the naivité and arrogance of US politicians like Nixon and Kissinger who were so intent on beating up the Russian communists that they thought they can “use and manipulate” China for that purpose, together with the short-sighted greediness of US businessmen on Wall Street (and Wal-Mart consumers) were the main causes of “China’s Rise”. I interpret Deng Xioaping’s famous quote about the colour of the cat as follows: In order for China to become a “superpower” it has to go through an economic and technological “Great Leap Forward”. Deng wanted technology transfer from the West. Russian communism wasn’t helping the Chinese economy too much in those days (except for introducing ballet!) Well, in the 90?s, many people in the West were so naive. All they were thinking was how to make a “quick buck” out of the huge Chinese market and labour force, but the Chinese think more strategically and in China, there is no division of State and Business. Look, who’s got the money now. That’s not even the main goal for China. What they really wanted was technology transfer and they got it big time (through offering cheap labour). Perhaps they would have gotten that by hook or by crook (industrial espionage) someday anyway, but the faulty economic and political decisions made in the West expedited those Chinese goals. We will have to wait and see what the economic, political and environmental effects of “China’s rise” will be for the rest of the world, especially for the smaller countries in Asia and Africa. After giving away valuable and fundamental know-how and technology for short term gains, it is hard for the capitalists in the West to complain that the Chinese are now capable of cloning (reverse engineering) any high-tech product (including stealth fighters and DF-21D’s). In fact, China has the cash now and can easily buy off technology from high-tech Western (especially German) companies and natural resources (energy and minerals) from the Third World (and Canada). In a strange twist, Chinese Communist Party is proving to be much more efficient at running a “Capitalist State” than the parochial politicians in the US. The impact of China’s rise is “worrisome” in the mind not just of the average American, but also for many other people in the rest of the world, but I have always have the naive view that creative and intelligent human beings are always attracted towards an open and flexible society and the question now is whether Americans will dig deeper into their souls to see what they really are made of and whether China will become a more open and democratic society. Only if both of these scenarios happen then it will be a win-win situation. Otherwise I predict some serious conflicts within and outside of China during the next decade.

 

IVAN33

2:44 AM ET

January 1, 2012

THIS FUNNY

I think people should look at first your country before talking about collapse in china.
China is fine and all you talk about won't happen only because of elements you did'nt notice.CULTURE and HISTORY.

 

DOPPER0189

5:41 AM ET

January 1, 2012

Wrong on what causes revolutions

Revolutions occur when "stagnation" goes on for too long a period. China is still on average a poor nation. Many nation in recent history have been able to grow from poor to middle income nations. A "simple" recipe of good governance, spending on infrastructure, and copying technology and techniques from developed nations can get a country into the middle tier. Notably this doesn't require Democracy.

But getting from the middle tier into the developed nations is much harder. This requires innovation and this is where authoritarian regimes often fail. Repression prevents the development of an open society where innovation can thrive. So nations that develop rapidly and then open up (South Korea, Chile) continue to thrive, those that developed stall until they open up (Brazil) and those that stayed authoritarian (Soviet Union) fail as eventually citizens get fed up with authoritarianism.

So my prediction is when China enters the middle income level, it will take 10-15 years from that point. Even if China overtakes the US as the largest economy in 2016 it's average income will still be that of a poor nation only the shear size of it's population will let it overtake the USA. Wait until GPD per a head hits $10,000 in today's dollars up from it's current $4500-$5000.

 

ARAMSOGO

10:55 AM ET

January 1, 2012

proof please

Ahhhh. The middle income trap argument. I'm surprised you didn't bring up Japan and the look at yellow people now argument. That's also a favorite amongst Americans.

Most innovation happens inside a corporation. A corporation has an authoritarian structure. Ask the dictator (CEO) at your company for a vote on a corporate decision and see what happens. China has always been authoritarian and yet it came up with many of the major inventions of the ancient world. Saying Free Society equals innovation sounds very pretty, but show me the proof. I don't buy it.

 

SEALFAN

1:58 PM ET

January 1, 2012

let's use the word: Claptrap

Mr Chang made the prediction, whether it is going to be happened or not, he is not clear with the 'government' and 'country'. The collapse of China, as a country? Never will happen.....collapse of the government? maybe, but until the year of 2010, the community party owns over 800 millions of population as its follower. .Collapse? year, with the losing of their jobs.

 

WCHA160

11:04 PM ET

January 1, 2012

Another futile prediction...?

Is Chang's piece just another attempt to stage a media coup or to win some brownie points as we enter 2012? If its not a publicity stunt and is a genuine prediction, I'm afraid its as silly as Harold Camping's claim that the rapture will take place in 2011.

First, I congratulate Chang for providing an extremely interesting read. His piece gives a lot of food for thought. If the piece was titled "the decline of the CCP" I would have no problem with it. Chang is clearly a fact finder, that I concede. Well done sir, bravo, you have written a B+ political science essay on why China is weak.

The problem is the claim to "oh crap, they didn't collapse in 2011 as I predicted....ummm, err....2012 it is". Without little self critique to the original 2011 hypothesis, I'm afraid Chang's words are bordering arrogance, a tragedy for an FP analyst.

I am not asking Chang to admit defeat or proclaim he was wrong. I agree that the CCP is on a trajectory towards being crushed by one force of society or another or many. But what I am asking Chang to do is show the audience that he has done a bit more thinking as to why his prediction was wrong. To put it off by only one year is childish. It is no more realistic than those cultists who keep saying the world will end every year due to a "oh I misread the gods' calendar". Surely, the fact that the CCP has not collapse should present Chang with a fresh opportunity to ignite new literature and thinking rather than a "give them another year" response. It could be considered a development that challenges current theory (or at least challenges the theory put forward by Chang). That is not such a bad thing...given that the Arab Spring and India's democracy in the context of persistent extreme poverty are things that political scientists find challenging to their theoretical thinking.

I also have a problem with Chang's exact interpretation of "China collapse" and the exact meaning of "collapse". Firstly, the CCP may collapse but China and its people will continue to march on. Secondly, collapse in what way? A self-executing civil war, a political collapse, an economic collapse, what? In addition, if Chang is so brilliant predicting a collapse, then what is to come afterwards? Will all the ills of China be healed by a switch in government? Will it necessarily be better for China's people? Will we see the emergence of a true democracy or will another opportunistic party/individual take China down another imperial dynasty?

Chang also fails to consider how we can avoid "collapse". Collapse of China, in whatever physical or metaphorical or spiritual sense, will not be good for the rest of the world. As cheesy as it sounds, it is in the world's interest to see a stable prospering China. Are there ways to avoid collapse without necessarily assassinating the CCP?

The CCP is not a Borg-collective. There are many factions and different schools of thought within it, perhaps as wide-ranging as those within the GOP or Democrats. Not all Chinese leaders are belligerent to change. The question we should ask ourselves is how we can support and cultivate and strengthen those members of the CCP who want reform and open engagement. Social constructivism may give us an answer here rather than realism.

The saving grace in Chang's piece is his reference to the strength of China's people and social media. I don't think we will see an Arab Spring in China anytime soon (sad face). Rather, social media means that mass incidents today are more noticed (Wukan is a glowing example), and even after the CCP's censorship machinery is put to work, thousands would have already been made aware of the struggle of their compatriots on the other side of the country. The soul searching and rage after the Wenzhou train accident and even things like the video capturing the lack of good samaritans in China indeed have "revolutionary" effects. These things do not lead to "collapse". Rather has Chang ever considered them as an energy that could be harnessed towards positive change and growth rather than collapse and "omg the witch - aka China - is dead"?

Can Chang be forgiven? I guess so. He joins a disturbingly large school of political scientists who keep predicting the decline of many governments. But just as the US has defied predictions back in 2003-2005 that it will no longer be a hegemon, so has China defied Chang's prediction.

 

WCHA160

11:16 PM ET

January 1, 2012

May the real Gordan Chang please stand up!

To follow up my critique and the critique of others, which has been mostly constructive (well done guys!) I would love Mr Chang to come back from his holiday and engage with us readers in these comments. It would be interesting to hear what he has to say following our "doubts". So I invite you, Gordon, to make a comment or two. I am keen to listen and learn :) but I hope you are too.

Sure, most of these comments may be brushed aside as "Chinese patriot talk" or "he/she is a member of the Chinese intelligence service". But I assure you Mr Chang, I am a political studies grad and someone who is very much in favour of evidence and facts and seeking the truth.

 

GRANT

1:53 AM ET

January 2, 2012

The author is correct about

The author is correct about many of the issues that the Chinese ruling class faces, but I'd say that he is definitely drawing the wrong conclusions from them. In the Soviet Union, conservative generals attempted (and failed horribly) to stop the semi-liberal efforts of Soviet politicians and it coincided with a sharp rise in nationalist feeling across Eastern Europe and Central Asia. In contrast the CCP appears to have the military strongly loyal to the CCP's continued power, CCP leaders will probably try to cement their harder credentials before risking any liberal thoughts, and, with the exception of the Tibetans and possibly Uighurs*, nationalism seems more to be pro-Chinese nationalism than anti-Chinese nationalism.

With that in mind I think it's safe to say that the elites of Chinese society are firmly on the side of the CCP, the military is not going to try to become king, the CCP will not do anything to suggest a release on power and breakaway efforts will meet little success. Additionally claiming that it will happen in 2012 seems rather ridiculous. You might be able to argue that there is a chance of the CCP's collapse at some point over the next decade or so, but there is no political scientist on Earth who could safely predict it to the exact year.

*And neither group seems at all capable of breaking away from Chinese control.

 

MARKANTHONY

9:31 AM ET

January 2, 2012

Excellent work. This is what

Excellent work. This is what i want to read.
Really good news. :)

 

MLOUISA70394@YAHOO.COM

12:52 PM ET

January 2, 2012

Well, right and wrong

In my view, China has already collapsed politically, and it was in the year 1989, when the government ordered soldiers to kill all those students in Tiananmen Square. Since then, no one really trusts China's government. Most nations just deal with China because of its economy, and there is very little warm and fuzzy feelings about the people who run China. In fact, if there were a vote today to execute the leaders, I am quite sure the Politburo's heads would role. The question is, when will China's economy collapse, and I feel the time is nigh. However, it may drag on a few more years. I am guessing there are more bullets than people in China, and I don't put it past the Chinese dictatorship to mow down anyone organizing to do away with the party when the economy really turns sour. Everything does come to an end, but the CCP will be the last party standing even if it means everyone else is dead.

 

FPPRO

3:27 PM ET

January 2, 2012

China Information Warfare

The problem that this article doesn't take into consideration is that China is in fact the new superpower in the information warfare game. They have been dominating cyberspace for years now and have a massive amount of information at their disposal across all economies. There is no way they will collapse because they can leverage all this information to their benefit as they have been for years. They have tons of insider information that no other superpower has, and they are great at using it to their advantage.

I agree with MIKEHUNT07 in that China will take the lead as the world economy. Their goal is to take their economy from a producer to a consumer, and I think we'll see more and more of that this decade.

 

FPPRO

3:41 PM ET

January 2, 2012

Re: China Information Warfare

This link completely ignores modern warfare.

 

INJUNTROUBLE

5:47 PM ET

January 2, 2012

You may be right

Actually it is possible that China will collapse in 2012. But it is far more likely that both the European economy as well as the US economy will go into a deep recession if not a depression. China will just be joining them that is all.

 

VALWAYNE

8:29 PM ET

January 2, 2012

And the U.S.?

An interesting article, but if things start to fall apart in China won't they start brining home every penny they've invested in the rest of the world to help deal with it? And if Obama loses his bankers while he's still piling up over $4 billion dollars in debt every day and has our nation headed to $16 TRILLION in debt by election day won't that crash the U.S. economy, and the rest of the world, certainly Europe? Obama has pushed the U.S. right up to the edge of a debt collapse and he's still pushing. If Europe and or China goes won't it be the final push? Can we save ourselves if its clear we're going to get rid of Obama in Nov 2012, or has Obama already done to much damage?

 

LUNGU

12:24 AM ET

January 3, 2012

Ahhh, the rumors of china's demise...

... first, 2006; then, 2011; now, 2012 (December 21st., no doubt.) A government who can still deliver ~10% annualized economic growth is in danger of collapsing in 2012!? While the flatliners, Europe and the US, have nothing to worry about!? Question: if Chang is wrong again, would FP spare us his "expertise," so he could more appropriately peddle his wishful thinking on Fox News?

 

THEPALADIN

2:55 AM ET

January 3, 2012

China's collapse

As much as I hate the Chinese and their knock-offs, I dont think they will, uhm, "collapse" in a year or two. Where goes that $1T surplus of theirs? Money buys most everything, and if it doesnt, a LOT of money will.
However, isnt the country already on a course of that "Japanese-style multi-decade decline"? The facts are pointing more toward that one.

 

COOLIE

5:20 AM ET

January 3, 2012

Maybe

Even if China were to go down the drain hole, I believe they would get up quickly with the use of their massive manpower. coolsculpting

 

FERNADAO

7:28 AM ET

January 3, 2012

May be right

Actually it is possible that China will collapse in 2012. But it is far more likely that both the European economy as well as the US economy will go into a deep recession if not a depression. Good Work!
massagista
avioes venda

 

TOMMYER

7:55 AM ET

January 3, 2012

China

He must be very excited about 2012, a year pregnant with possibilities, from the Middle-east turmoil and stand-offs, Eurozone disintegration, the election of an independent-minded party to power in Taiwan,3 quart saucepan the death of Kim Jong-il to the territorial disputes in the South China Sea that could lead to regional or global conflagrations,

 

BLESS

10:41 AM ET

January 3, 2012

'change the face' of science

n my part, China has already collapsed politically But China China overtakes Other countries in R&D.ambitious plan to 'change the face' of science.Its continuous to grow up in future years
makers

 

STEVELAUDIG

5:35 PM ET

January 3, 2012

Trends seem to favor

a U.S. collapse to happen ten years after it pulls out of Iraq or was it Afghanistan?. Ask the Sovi errr Russians. The US almost collapsed in order to end slavery. Imagine if it ends the Empire.

 

DRENAGEM11

8:53 PM ET

January 4, 2012

Right and wrong

Since then, no one really trusts China's government. Most nations just deal with China because of its economy, and there is very little warm and fuzzy feelings about the people who run China.In my view, China has already collapsed politically, and it was in the year 1989, when the government ordered soldiers to kill all those students in Tiananmen Square. In fact, if there were a vote today to execute the leaders, I am quite sure the Politburo's heads would role. pecas
seguro

 

WCHA160

12:50 AM ET

January 5, 2012

Collapse...then what?

Gordon Chang thinks the collapse of China is a blessing...but its something a lot more terrifying for the rest of the world.

A massive economic crisis on a scale unseen and disruption (no matter how temporary) to Western exports and investment to China...e.g. Australia's economy is where it is largely thanks to Chinese demand. If China were to collapse and even if the turmoil or conflict in which the CCP falls is only to last a couple of months, that is still sufficient to trigger an economic crisis of all sorts.

Ok, moving on, what about who will control China? Chang and other optimists probably expect a swift collapse of the CCP and the ushering of a multi-party democracy. But that is only one of many possibilities. What if the PLA, no longer bound to serve a non-existent CCP, refuses to professionalise and tries to take over? Of course it may not be successful given that many of its troops could be sympathetic. But nonetheless it is a worrying outcome in which the country could descend into civil war, infighting between PLA factions could result in mass collateral damage.

And a worst thought. Nuclear weapons. If CCP collapses, who will inherit the trigger? Is it realistic to expect a collapsing and desperate CCP willingly turning over control of WMDs to a new government? Unlikely.

 

JACKXO

3:51 AM ET

January 5, 2012

Thank you, Mr. Chang !!

It has been a long day for me.....thanks for making me laugh.....

 

GJS

10:36 AM ET

January 6, 2012

This is a fair unbiased assessment, China is in trouble

I was pleased to read an article that sets out the facts in an unbiased fashion of the real problems China face, I too stated five years ago that there would be critical problems in 2011 but I too was wrong in the time, not substance. Please don't get me wrong I would love to be wrong altogether & China keeps powering through the 10%pa growth pattern but realism must be injected even if it only helps a few from losing everything by listening to self interested people promising the world.
It is paramount that people (even Chinese residents) focus on what is happening on the whole of their country & not just their small part which may still be striving ahead, remember that this striving could well still be the coming end to the incredible infrastructure spending the State implemented a couple of years ago, actual export orders have plummeted, many many areas of China are on the boil for civil unrest & like ALL Govs the "official" numbers quoted are a very adjusted set of numbers rarely reflecting what is truly going on. Even usually very optimistic entreuprenuers are (in private) becoming extremely worried about the turmoil which is approaching which will have to be dealt with one way or the other.
It's not all doom & gloom but please don't expect for a minute that China will continue on it's phenomenal growth & remember if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is, do your own indepth research & have an exit strategy that you can implement at a moments notice & be extremely suspicious of so called bargains, there's always a reason why.
My best to you all & best of luck.

 

PHILBEST

6:35 PM ET

January 6, 2012

China's Property Price Bubble is huge, too

Gordon Chang will be proved right. His reasons are very good. There is another reason that is probably even more important than the ones he identifies.

I have been saying for years that China - and India - will be part of an "Asian Crisis II", bigger than ever.

The reason: the level of "planning gain" - that is, the capital gain made when farmland (which is always very cheap) is "permitted" for urban development. This is nothing to do with the cost of development and infrastructure - it refers to the straight out inflation of nothing more than the "raw land".

Mainstream economists are clueless about the role of this in the future economic trajectory of a nation. This is really where ALL serious property price bubbles originate. Check out the correlations in the property-related crises that have happened in Japan, California, the UK's frequent cycles, Ireland, Spain, etc etc.

Some nations call a de facto racket in land for urban development, "urban growth containment", but in China and India it does not have this fig leaf of respectability, it is straight out corruption.

The result there is rows and rows of empty apartment buildings that some "greater sucker" is stuck with at prices far too high to fill with residents - millions of whom still live in nearby slums. If the same apartments had been built under genuine free market conditions like in cities in, say, Texas, the Chinese and Indian slum dwellers could actually afford to live in them.

http://www.thechinabeat.org/?p=3610

 

DIE ZAUBERFLOTE

12:18 PM ET

January 7, 2012

I disagree

I was driving home one day when I heard Gordon Chang as a guest on a radio show.

One of the comments he made was that America didn't need Chinese money and he cited the demand for US Treasuries right after the Standard and Poor's ratings downgrade of US sovereign debt. US Treasury yields went down instead of up. This was evidence that Americadidn't and doesn't need China. I think he used it as a basis

This is a superficial assessment of what goes on in the sovereign debt markets based on a highly simplified, almost nonsensical, "model" of a bipolar (economic) world. What about the EU? Where are the BRI in the BRIC? More than anything, demand for US Treasuries is driven by fear of the European crisis or crises. Yet he did not think it was worth a mention in his "assessment". OH, and yes, the Euro would probably collapse before the China will.

In fact, for all the economic and political problems of the "Free World" and the contagion effect on the global financial markets, it is precisely China's authoritiarian government that could very well be the key deciding factor in keeping China humming along. If China is economically healthy, it could continue to at least keep East Asia from being dragged down into the economic morass in the US and Europe.

China was able to stimulate its economy in 2008 and 2009 while America was mired in "rescuing" America's financial system. China's stimulus was massive, swift, and most importantly it worked -- it probably worked too well, in fact. How did China do it so well? It was because the authoritarian government could dictate that banks lend.

In America, the opposite was happening. The banks were bullying the government into pumping taxpayer money into the rescue -- for what? An anemic "recovery" that continued to shed jobs and worst still, shed homeownership. US banks basically transferred their massive losses onto the taxpayers backs (the effects of which could very well be multi-decades long) while continuing to foreclose on ordinary citizens and we are here talking about Chinese citizens being sheeplike. US taxpayers are paying the banks to foreclose on our neighbours. It's surreal if you ask me. How is liberal democracy working for us now?

Many have said that China sits on a property bubble similar to the US property market pre-subprime crisis and that we are witnessing a slow-motion collapse of that bubble. That may be true. But China has three: key things going for them: their authoritarian government that understands economics, their massive foreign exchange reserves, and their strong Yuan.

China won't experience partisan bickering and the banks are beholden to the country not the other way round. China can act decisively and swiftly.

Foreign exchange reserves can be "repatriated". It will cause inflation but if China's situation is dire enough, inflation won't be a problem, in fact, they may need to inflate the economy back to life. Same "problem" with the strong Yuan. They can print more Yuans. They have the room to do this. A lot of room. Certainly more "room" to see it past 2012.

Finally I believe China's largely closed financial market insulated it from financial contagions. It limited exposure and made risk more manageable. Although it is getting harder to park their massive foreign exchange reserves in hard currency bonds. Perhaps this is one reason why Gold and other commodities have risen so much.

Counterintuitively, China's authoritarian government just may be the thing to see the country through. It is for the long term? Maybe not, but for now, it's probably a better thing than indecisvieness.

 

PUBLICUS

8:09 AM ET

January 13, 2012

Tumultuous 2012

Tumultuous Year Ahead for Chinese Regime

By Jane Lin & Shanshan Wu
Epoch Times Staff
January 13, 2012

Between 5,000 to 10,000 workers at the state-run Pangang Group Chengdu Steel & Vanadium Company in Chengdu City of Sichuan Province went on a three-day strike on Jan 4, 2012 over low wages and year-end bonuses. (Posted on Weibo by a Chinese blogger)

A wave of large-scale strikes and protests in China during the first week of 2012 leads experts to predict that the Chinese communist regime will be facing increasing pressure from millions of disgruntled farmers, workers, and other disenfranchised groups this year.

Protests have erupted in at least six Chinese provinces--Guangxi, Guangdong, Sichuan, Jiangsu, Henan, and Liaoning--in the first week of this year.

On Jan. 1, thousands of people, who lost their savings in an investment scam, took to the streets in the eastern province of Henan. Their anger was also directed at local officials for not protecting them.

On Jan. 4, workers in several provinces held wage-related strikes.

In Chengdu City, Sichuan Province, 5,000 to 10,000 workers in a state-run steel company began a three-day strike, demanding higher wages and bonuses.

In Wuzhou, Guangxi Province, all of the workers at a toy factory went on strike to protest the company’s delay in paying wages and its cancellation of year-end bonuses.

About 300 workers in a factory in Panyu, Guangzhou City, Guangdong Province, held a third strike when their demand for payraises wasn’t met.

During Jan. 4 -- 5, over 1,000 employees of a household appliance manufacturer in Wuxi, Jiangsu Province, were striking over layoffs, pay cuts, and cancellation of their annual bonuses.

Thousands of beer factory workers in the northeastern port city of Dalian, Liaoning Province, also went on strike because of low wages and poor benefits.

In Shenzhen City, Guangdong Province, about 500 veterans held a rally on Jan. 9 in front of the Bureau of Letters and Calls, protesting over poor social security benefits.

More Protests in Slowing Economy

Wu Fan, a U.S. based political commentator, says China saw an increase of protests after the 2011 Jasmine Revolution in North Africa and the Middle East. However, the numbers and scale of strikes and protests that have erupted in China during the first week of 2012 is not something the Chinese Communist regime expected, Wu told the Chinese edition of The Epoch Times.

Wu said there are several reasons for these strikes at this time. One is that the Chinese New Year, the biggest holiday in China, is fast approaching and workers need money to celebrate the holidays with their families. However, because of the slowing economy, companies are unable to pay employees or have to lower wages.

Another reason for the sudden increase in strikes is the influence of the Wukan incident which has given people more assertiveness to stand up for their rights. Wu said he expects a lot more protests in China this year.

“2012 is full of uncertainty in China, and many people are waiting for something big to happen,” Wu said.

Political and social commentator Huang Hebian agrees with this assessment. The Wukan protests have had the effect of awakening the masses across China, and this foreshadows increased tensions between the regime and workers and peasants, he told The Epoch Times.

Huang also predicts that more protests will take place in March during the National People’s Congress.

Pressure on Political System

As the economy continues to decline, the regime will face more political pressure, according to economist Cheng Xiaonong, a former aide to the late, ousted, liberal party leader Zhao Ziyang. But solving China’s social problems is impossible under the current political system, Cheng told New Tang Dynasty Television.

He Qinglian, a prominent U.S. based Chinese writer and economist, said in a recent article, “The next round of new leaders in China is doomed to take over a country that is difficult to manage.”

Judging from the wave of strikes and protests at the start of 2012, China’s new leaders won’t have the luxury of sticking to the same old practices and ideologies as their predecessors did, and dealing with crises will become their daily routine, she said.

If Beijing doesn’t loosen its tight grip, the boiling tensions in China won’t subside, and it will lead to the regime losing its power, she said.

[END]

 

JACJJ

6:03 PM ET

January 7, 2012

For most of the last two

For most of the last two thousand years China was ruled by a, theoretically, impartial bureaucracy. Entry was by performance in an examination and promotion, in principle, was by merit. Wealth could buy you porno education and coaching but on the day of the test, you were on you're own. The legitimacy of the mandarins, quite apart from the "mandate of heaven" was based on the fact that they had demonstrated the level of intellect required to govern. For most of that period China was the social, economic and technological leader of the world. Looking at the system that gave us George W Bush, Lehman Brothers and the Iraq war, perhaps the Chinese might think twice about the merits of democracy in providing what the enlightenment called "good government".

 

KEYBASHER

10:03 AM ET

January 9, 2012

The Olympic Curse

When a one-party state hosts an Olympics, ten years later that state circles the drain if it isn't already down it. To wit:

1936: Berlin Olympics / Garmisch-Partenkirchen Winter Olympics
1946: Allied Occupation

1980: Moscow Olympics
1990: Collapse of Communism

1984: Sarajevo Winter Olympics
1994: Yugoslav Civil War

2008: Beijing Olympics
2018: ?

Remember, you read it here first. Let’s hope China manages a smooth regime change – for once in their history!

 

DOMINOES

1:18 AM ET

January 17, 2012

they won't make it that long

There is little chance that they will make it to 2018, but we shall see. Very interesting historical evidence you have there, but I don't think it is predictive of what will happen. Those are mere coincidences, nothing less. I have a friend who sells nicaragua realestate and he says that people like to predict collapses because it keeps them entertained. I wish we focused more on the things that are happening in the world today that are of a positive light more than these tragic issues. The world does have a lot going wrong, it always has, but it has a bunch of things going right, like just the other day, I learned how to get rid of gingivitis and it saved me a ton of time and money, so what about focusing on the good things in life? I think it will make a huge difference in the world if we just shift our perspective this little bit, it might make a world of difference.

 

PUBLICUS

11:55 PM ET

January 9, 2012

Property Market 2012

China May Ease Property Curbs Mid-Year to Prevent Price Collapse, UBS Says
By Bloomberg News - Jan 10, 2012 9:27 AM GMT+0700 .

Jan. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Chen Li, head of China equity strategy at UBS AG, talks about the nation's stock and real estate markets. He spoke yesterday in Shanghai with Bloomberg Television's Stephen Engle. (Source: Bloomberg).

China will probably ease property curbs as early as the middle of the year to prevent a collapse of the housing market as the measures may boost supply to the highest in a decade, according to UBS AG.

“The gap between supply and demand will reach the peak, and the supply will be 1.5 or even 1.6 times demand, and it will be a disaster for developers,” Chen Li, head of China equity strategy at UBS, said in a Bloomberg Television interview. “Their cash flow will be exhausted to zero by the end of this year if they cannot get any financing. No one can afford that.”

China’s home prices fell for a fourth month in December after the government reiterated plans to maintain curbs that include higher down-payment and mortgage requirements, according to SouFun Holdings Ltd. (SFUN) Housing values dropped in 60 out of 100 cities tracked by the nation’s biggest real-estate website owner, including the 10 largest cities such as Shanghai and Beijing.

The government said last month at an annual economic planning meeting that it won’t back away from real-estate industry curbs this year that are damping home sales and pulling down prices. The nation’s financial center of Shanghai and some other Chinese cities have also said they will continue to impose the home purchase restrictions this year.

“If you assume the property policy keeps stable in the coming year, that means by the end of the year the inventory of property will reach a new peak, around 10 years or even 20 years,” Chen said.

The government has said it will continue to increase the supply of social housing. It plans to start the construction of 7 million homes this year, compared with 10 million in 2011. The completion will at least keep pace with last year’s 5 million units, People’s Daily reported earlier this year.

A gauge tracking property shares on the Shanghai stock exchange climbed 0.9 percent as of 10:09 a.m. local time, compared with the 0.5 percent gain in the benchmark measure.

--Stephen Engle and Bonnie Cao. Editors: Linus Chua, Andreea Papuc

 

MANDREWSF

1:05 AM ET

January 10, 2012

All I hear are...

Johns, johns, and more johns. Don't make excuses--go do something else.
Seriously, Chang's probably never heard of Yogi Berra's mantra, "it's hard to make predictions, especially about the future."

 

MANDREWSF

1:34 AM ET

January 10, 2012

@ Publicus

I'd normally dismiss you as a bad troll, but seeing that you are pretty committed to posting responses, I'm now confused as to whether if you just watched a wee bit too much FoxNews or if you are simply an ignorant racist. But here are a few points that I would like to point out to you.

1. You've never been to China. So don't pretend like you did.
2. You are not qualified to judge the Chinese people as a whole. No one is. To do so is to be racist, same as making sweeping judgments of, say, African Americans, or any other race.
3. You believe the Chinese are "sheeple" who believe what they are told. Unfortunately for you, I am Chinese (not an ABC but from China--Oh the shock!) and I don't believe the bullshit you've sprouted.
4. The origin of the term "sheeple" is the webcomic "xkcd," where it is used to mock people with unfounded sense of superiorities. See "http://xkcd.com/610/". The way you toss the word around--calling the entire Chinese ethnicity "sheeple"--actually makes you an ignorant hypocrite. Especially since your own source of information seem very limited--which, in your parlance, would probably make you a member of the "sheeple."
5. Maybe the words "inbred, inborn and ingrown" (the latter two of which do not exist in the English language) are more appropriate as the content of your autobiography than "accurate" generalizations of Chinese people.

 

PUBLICUS

7:58 AM ET

January 13, 2012

Did I mention mean?

I forget whether I mentioned the Chinese personality is mean - ah, yes, I see I did include in a statement above that the Chinese have a mean national character and personailty. I observed that the Chinese don't much converse with one another, they rather argue and often shout.

I lived and worked three years in the PRC, until early in 2011. I'd visited the PRC once previously, Beijing in 1997 while the CCP was driving the millions of peasants out of the city into exile in the countryside while the CCP constructed its new Gotham. The proliferation of CCP property developers throughout the PRC are driving peasants off their land to rot unseen in the hills. And now the property bubble is bursting.

From the Urban Dictionary, Sheeple defined:

"People unable to think for themselves. Followers. Lemmings. Those with no cognitive ablilities of their own.

"An individual that forfits their right to choose in favor of inclusion in groupthink and what is viewed as popular or an elete group. Allowing the influences of different forms of media and group members to hold great sway in the formation of attitudes, behavoir and opinion.

"To accept the group mentaility and opinion as fact without examination. Not only to be told what to do, but accepting the paradigm of thought as absolute thereby removing the weight of personal responsibility in the making of decisions."

Plato's Republic is often referenced as the origin of a "sheeple" consciousness.

Also, check any dictionary, anywhere, anytime to find "inbred, inborn, ingrown."

For example, Inbred: "rooted and ingrained in one's nature as deeply as if implanted by heredity; exclusivity which is the result of arbitrarily narrow social or cultural association;"

Inborn: "natural to a person or animal" as in the particular instance of China's 5000 year culture of dictatorship by an elite which believes the general population is of low intelligence and character so therefore must be led by (self-styled) autocrats.

Ingrown: "having the direction of growth or activity or interest inward rather than outward," as in the Chinese attitude of 5000 years that all foreigners are "devils" and that being Chinese is 'a priori' to be the superior race. The Chinese believe only they came from the stars and that over time the mass of humanity crawled out of a hundred shitholes.

I watch MSNBC. Fox News is right wing. However, recently Fox News has begun a policy move more toward the political center, which you would notice were you able to unshackle yourself from your CCP-PRC and 5000 year Chinese dogmas.

Google "Fenqing" for racism, then get back to me, okay?

 

REPORUA

6:00 PM ET

January 19, 2012

Right about one thing

Gordon Chang is right about one thing "Why has China as we know it survived? First and foremost, the Chinese central government has managed to avoid adhering to many of its obligations made when it joined the WTO in 2001 to open its economy and play by the rules, and the international community maintained a generally tolerant attitude toward this noncompliant behavior. As a result, Beijing has been able to protect much of its home market from foreign competitors while ramping up exports."

"By any measure, China has been phenomenally successful in developing its economy after WTO accession"

In this they are following the protect and export pattern used successfully by Japan and South Korea to rebuild their economies after WWII (deliberately ignoring the orthodox Western economic free trade mantra). The trick to pulling your country out of poverty is to manufacture the situation where other countries are keen to take your exports while they can't or won't force you to remove protections for your domestic economies.

 

GEMMA-LEIGH

8:17 PM ET

January 23, 2012

Inflation is the silent killer

It's very interesting to see how inflation (plus many other factors) over time can kill a country at the same time making another country prosperous. A country is only as strong as it's economy and not even insurance can help anyone when the economy collapses.

 

HANS KLOSS

5:54 AM ET

January 24, 2012

In America, the opposite was

In America, the opposite was happening. The banks were bullying the government into pumping taxpayer money into the rescue -- for what? An anemic "recovery" that continued to shed jobs and worst still, shed homeownership. US banks basically transferred their massive losses onto the taxpayers backs (the effects of which could very well be multi-decades long) while continuing to foreclose on ordinary citizens and we are here talking about Chinese citizens being sheeplike. US taxpayers are paying the banks to foreclose on our neighbours. It's surreal if you ask me. How is liberal democracy working for us now?

 

PUBLICUS

8:12 AM ET

January 27, 2012

Churchill

As Churchill famously said, "Democracy is the worst form of government ever devised by the mind of man, save for all the others."

I'll take liberal democracy and parliamentary systems of government and society every day of the week and twice on Sunday over the 5000 year old Chinese culture of dictatorship by elites, autocrats, monarchs, oligarchs, kleptocrats and since 1949 the CCP censors of the forever monolithic state.

The CCP-PRC State-Corporate-Military complex is going to have to bail out the property market this year because it is crashing hard and fast. The standard of living and the quality of life in liberal democracies are astronomically higher than in the PRC, DPRK, Venezuela, Cuba, Equador and others the CCP likes to refer to as the "Internationale." (Would that include Albania, too?) What realistic person still speaks of the "Internationale?"

The autocrats of China have said for five millenia that the common people are of low intelligence. The CCP continues to spew that ancient line, making it a self-fufilling prophecy for the hapless Chinese sheeple. Liberal democracy elevates the common person for the extraordinary accomplishments s/he has realized in only several hundred years of a liberal democratic tradition that heralds back more than two thousand years to the ancient Greeks.

But this is all Greek to the eternal Chinese autocrats. In the Age of IT, the censoring and punishing CCP-PRC is the most reactionary force in the world. The CCP too will collapse of its own petrified dead weight.

 

YARINSIZ

9:29 AM ET

January 27, 2012

I was pleased to read an

I was pleased to read an article that sets out the facts in an unbiased fashion of the real problems China face, I too stated five years ago that there would be critical problems in 2011 but I too was wrong in the time, not substance. Please don't get me wrong I would love to seslichat be wrong altogether & China keeps powering through the 10%pa growth pattern but realism must be injected even if it only helps a few from losing everything by listening to self interested people promising the world.

 

THE_OBSERVER

10:46 PM ET

January 31, 2012

Economic cycles

Gordon Chang is still around?
You say something long enough and you'll eventually be proved right. Even a broken clock is right twice in a 24 hour period.
Economic cycles go up and down. The USA would be even in deeper doo-doo if they couldn't just print USD and Treasury bonds.
At the moment the biggest markets for China - the USA and Europe are having problems and the former's exports will be down. The Chinese still have a few tricks up their sleeves as they haven't spent all their ammunition. They could lower interest rates or bank reserve ratios to stimulate the economy. They are currently encouraging domestic consumption as they are even below that of India. They are slowly internationalizing the RMB so if they convert some of their US holdings other central banks and foreign institutions may want to hold some of the extra RMB and thus ease inflationary pressures within China. China is encouraging her population to buy gold and silver which is priced internationally in USD. China is still on the move and that is needed. As shown, any country that ceases to grow their economy actually shrinks. This is because as population ages and productive work declines. Also as in the case of Japan and other countries, people are refusing to have children thus accelerating the process of decline. In contrast, China, in this year of the dragon, is expecting a bumper baby harvest no matter how the economy turns out this year.

 

PUBLICUS

10:02 AM ET

February 3, 2012

Head in sand

China’s Population Destiny: The Looming Crisis

Feng Wang, Director, Brookings-Tsinghua Center

As a result of China's low fertility rates since the early 1990s, the country has already begun experiencing what will become a sustained decline in new entrants into its labor force and in the number of young migrants. The era of uninterrupted supplies of young, cheap Chinese labor is over. The size of the country’s population aged 60 and above, on the other hand, will increase dramatically, growing by 100 million in just 15 years (from 200 million in 2015 to over 300 million by 2030). The number of families with only one child, which is also on a continued rise, only underscores the challenge of supporting the growing numbers of elderly Chinese.

The aging of China’s population represents a crisis because its arrival is imminent and inevitable, because its ramifications are huge and long-lasting, and because its effects will be hard to reverse.

Political legitimacy in China over the past three decades has been built around fast economic growth, which in turn has relied on a cheap and willing young labor force. An aging labor force will compel changes in this economic model and may make political rule more difficult. An aging population will force national reallocations of resources and priorities, as more funds flow to health care and pensions.

Indeed, increased spending obligations created by the aging of the population will not only shift resources away from investment and production; they will also test the government’s ability to meet rising demands for benefits and services. In combination, a declining labor supply and increased public and private spending obligations will result in an economic growth model and a society that have not been seen in China before. Japan’s economic stagnation, closely related to the aging of its population, serves as a ready reference.

The term “demographic dividend” refers to gains (or losses) in per capita income brought about by changes in a population’s age structure. It is expressed as the ratio of the growth rate of effective producers to the growth rate of effective consumers. The demographic dividend takes into account people in the productive age cohort who are not contributing to income generation (for example, because they are unemployed) as well as those within the dependent age range who generate income (such as from after-retirement earnings).

For the most part, China has exhausted its demographic fortune as measured by the demographic dividend—that is, by the changing support ratio between effective producers and effective consumers. Between 1982 and 2000, China enjoyed an average annual rate of growth in the support ratio of 1.28 percent. Using the World Bank’s figure of per capita annual income growth during this same period, 8.4 percent, we find that the demographic dividend accounted for 15 percent of China’s economic growth. Today, the net gain due to favorable demographic conditions has been reduced to only one-fifth of the average level maintained from 1982 to 2000.

By 2013 China’s demographic dividend growth rate will turn negative: That is, the growth rate of net consumers will exceed the growth rate of net producers. Starting in 2013, such a negative growth rate will reduce the country’s economic growth rate by at least half a percentage point per year. Between 2013 and 2050, China will not fare demographically much better than Japan or Taiwan, and will fare much worse than the United States and France.

Although the full extent of the one-child policy’s societal consequences will not be known until later, it is safe to predict that the social costs that China will need to pay, especially in terms of family support for aging parents, will be exceedingly high. In no small part due to implementation of the one-child policy, China by 2005 had accumulated nearly 160 million only children aged 0 to 30. That number has further grown in the past five years. These figures imply that over 40 percent of Chinese households have only one child.

In Europe, North America, and East Asia, prolonged below-replacement fertility has already set in motion a negative population growth momentum. In the most extreme cases, such as Italy and Japan, population could be reduced by half in as few as 40 years or so if current rates of reproduction persist. A gradual but substantial reduction in population, especially with a concomitant aging of populations in the world’s richest countries, constitutes an unprecedented shift that is redefining the global demographic, economic, and political landscape.

What makes China unique, however, is that it still has a state policy, unique in human history, that restricts the majority of Chinese families to one child per couple. At the time the policy was announced 30 years ago, it provoked great controversy both within and outside China; over the years it has extracted great sacrifices from Chinese families and individuals, especially from women. And although the policy was designed as an emergency measure to slow down China’s population growth, and was intended to last for only one generation, the government has not yet shown the willingness, or courage, to phase it out.

China’s slow recognition and inaction in the face of its impending demographic crisis—inaction that persists despite appeals by almost all the country’s population experts to phase out the one child policy quickly—reflect policy makers’ lack of understanding of the changing demographic reality. Inertia also results from the resistance of the country’s birth-control bureaucracy, which formally employs half a million people.

This exemplifies a characteristic feature of China’s regime—relegating difficult, long-term, structural challenges to the back burner, while giving priority to short-term crisis management and concerns about stability. The looming demographic crisis will largely define China in the twenty-first century. Given that demographic changes take time to develop, and that their ramifications are not only massive but also long-lasting, China’s inaction has already proved costly—and will only grow more so the longer it persists.

http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2010/09_china_population_wang.aspx