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Mark Perry is an author and historian. His latest book is Talking to Terrorists.
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12:46 PM ET
January 13, 2012
Not about the nuclear program at all.
Mark Perry writes: "There is no denying that there is a covert, bloody, and ongoing campaign aimed at stopping Iran's nuclear program"
No, sorry, this has nothing to do with Iran's nuclear program. That's just a pretext, like "WMDs in Iraq". This is about regime change. No amount of Iranian compromise offers on their nuclear program will ever change that. The US has no intention of letting a potential peaceful resolution of the nuclear issue get in the way of removing the regime in Iran, by force if necessary.
It is about time that our experts and our media acknowledge this fact.
2:07 PM ET
I am a little confused that you think this is less about Iran's nuclear program and more about regime change. Who in Iran right now do you think the Israelis would so like to have in charge rather than Khameini and Ahmedinejad? It seems to me that the nuclear program is both a more present danger as well as the fact that interdicting it gives more tangible results.
5:20 PM ET
it's just another war
Eisenhower, BP, military/industrial complex, corporate media, idiotic religious extremists, election year. Enough said, lock and load.
5:32 PM ET
The point is to create a failed state
The deeper project is to ensure that all potential enemies of Israel, no matter how distant, are collapsed, failed states. And looking at the score card, the project is wildly successful: Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Sudan, and now Syria, and soon Iran.
Regime change is impossible, but rendering a country incapable of any sort of economic or military threat - well, that's very possible.
1:05 AM ET
January 14, 2012
DUGLARRI has it right
Those who have followed the Israeli-Palestinian issue over the decades know that it is unspoken Israeli policy (same unspoken policy as for their nuclear weapons) to keep all countries around them weak or neutered.
(old) Egypt and (still current) Jordan through peace treaties paid for with large infusions of US cash to the ruling autocracies
Iraq through outright US invasion (and 8-year quagmire)
Syria through isolation
... and many (myself included) see the 2006 Israeli attack on Lebanon, claimed to be in response to the abduction of two soldiers, as precipitated by the fact that Lebanon was getting its act together; had resolved most of the post-civil-war issues; was on its way to resolving the rest of them (including Hezbollah's armaments) and was already experiencing economic, social and political booms, a mere 15 years after half a century of civil war.
The latter is the most obvious example of Israel's policy of keeping neighbours weak, unstable, failed, or neutered.
Iran is next because it poses the most credible current threat to Israel's regional hegemony.
4:32 AM ET
I think this is hardly surprising news given that the Israeli's stand to lose the most from Iran's 'peaceful use' nuclear programme. That the US needs some rationalisation to effect a regime change is nothing new... you are right Hass - it is time that our media and experts acknowledge what is already an internationally accept fact.
10:44 AM ET
Hass, I think you are
Hass, I think you are probably right.
11:42 AM ET
Pathetic Self-Loathing Hatred
In suggesting that the United States's actions in Iraq were brought about by Israelis to further a State of Israel foreign policy, that is at once unseen and highly speculative on your part, is libelous. Your hate for Israel and Jews is showing.
In this New Year, I wish for you enough pride in your own worth that you might give-up this inferiority complex you have been taught. Maybe then you will stop weaving fictional stories of hate as a means of quieting your cognitive dissonance.
Notwithstanding, your assertions are incorrect on the facts and merit.
4:48 PM ET
Why does Iran have ballistic missiles?
What kind of warhead will usefully go on Iran's Sajjil and Shahab missiles, other than a WMD? They aren't accurate enough to be effective with ordinary explosives. And what other WMD does Iran have besides the nukes they're working on?
And why are the Sunni Arab oil states so upset about Iran's nuclear program, if it's just to "Generate electricity?".
Iran wants a nuclear-backed monopoly over Mideast oil, probably tied together under a Caliphate of their own, if they can get it. Does their friendship with oil-exporter Venezuela make more sense now? Otherwise, why not Cuba?
If Iran can defeat Israel, they can be popular enough in the Sunni oil-exporting states to make their plans work.
And what's the purpose of regime change if not to stop the nuclear weapons program?
5:30 PM ET
Pathetic Self-Loathing Hatred? Or the truth?
H.SCHMETTLAPP as immediately above seeks as all Zionists do, to deny that Zionism is the central and fundamental issue of America with world Islam.
My opinion is just that. But what al-Qaeda has repeatedly said is another matter.
Text in part of the bin Laden audiotape January 19, 2006:
“I say that this war will go either in our favor or yours. As for us, we have nothing to lose. A swimmer in the ocean does not fear the rain. You have occupied our lands, offended our honor and dignity and let out our blood and stolen our money and destroyed our houses and played with our security and we will give you the same treatment… You have tried to prevent us from leading a dignified life, but you will not be able to prevent us from a dignified death. Failing to carry out jihad, which is called for in our religion, is a sin. The best death to us is under the shadows of swords. Don't let your strength and modern arms fool you. They win a few battles but lose the war. Patience and steadfastness are much better. We were patient in fighting the Soviet Union with simple weapons for 10 years and we bled their economy and now they are nothing. In that there is a lesson for you.”
From September 14, 2009 Bin Laden audiotape translated: edited: in part:
"American people: This address to you is a reminder of the causes of 11 (September) and the wars and consequences that followed and the way to settle it once and for all…
At the beginning, I say that we have made it clear and stated so many times for over two decades that the cause of the quarrel with you is your support for your Israeli allies, who have occupied our land, Palestine. This position of yours, along with some other grievances, is what prompted us to carry out the 11 September events. Had you known the magnitude of our suffering as a result of the injustice of the Jews against us, with the support of your administrations for them, you would have known that both our nations are victims of the policies of the White House, which is in fact a hostage in the hands of pressure groups, especially major corporations and the Israeli lobby.”
"As for explaining the suffering of our people in Palestine, Obama has recently acknowledged in his speech from Cairo the suffering of our kinfolk there, who are living under occupation and siege. Things will become clearer if you read what your former president, Carter, wrote about the racism of the Israelis against our kinfolk in Palestine, and also if you listened to his statement weeks ago during his visit to the destroyed and besieged Gaza Strip. He said in that statement that the people of Gaza are treated more as animals than human beings. For us God suffices, and He is the best disposer of affairs.”
From January 24, 2010 Bin Laden audiotape: in part:
“America will not even dream of security until security becomes a reality in Palestine. It is not fair that you enjoy your lives, while our brothers in Gaza live in hardship. Therefore, our raids against you will continue, Allah willing, as long as your support of the Israelis continues.”
OBL is dead, and that is fine with me. But his cause lives on.
Zionism is racism and unending war.
For my part, I just want America off this bus before it goes over the cliff.
6:43 PM ET
The same reason everyone else has ballistic m
>> What kind of warhead will usefully go on Iran's Sajjil and Shahab missiles, other than a WMD?
What are you talking about? The US government was contemplating a program whereby ICBM's would be used to strike enemy targets anywhere in the world using conventional warheads.
Obviously, they ARE accurate enough to be effective with ordinary explosives.
>> And what other WMD does Iran have besides the nukes they're working on?
You tell us.
>> And why are the Sunni Arab oil states so upset about Iran's nuclear program, if it's just to "Generate electricity?".
The states are not upset, just the US puppet dictatos. The Arab population in the ME is actualyl in favor of the nuclear power program.
>> Iran wants a nuclear-backed monopoly over Mideast oil, probably tied together under a Caliphate of their own, if they can get it.
Where did you read that? David Horowitz's web site? Leon Panetta said on TV this week that Iran is not making nukes.
>> Does their friendship with oil-exporter Venezuela make more sense now?
It makes sense that states set up trade agreements yes.
>> And what's the purpose of regime change if not to stop the nuclear weapons program?
The same purpose it was in Iraq, which had no nukes.
8:12 PM ET
Israel is a threat to world peace
Since the unwarranted attack on the USS Liberty by Israel there have been numerous proofs that the Israeli leaders do not care what happens to the USA and that they will do whatever they want to further land thefts.
8:14 PM ET
Why do we have such missiles?
The answer is: Who cares! If we have WMD why can not Iran have them as well? We know that Israel already has about 200 nukes.
8:17 PM ET
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8:19 PM ET
10:17 PM ET
Propaganda on FP
Completely agree. Who is this Mark Perry anyway? I googled his name and I could only find this article and a professor of economics.
If he's a professor of economics, what's he doing talking politics? If he's someone else, than it just seems to me that an issue of this "exclusivity" would be written about by someone who has more articles published.
something smelled fishy.
10:20 PM ET
Why is there nothing said about israels massive arsenal of WMD's?
Is theirr massive arsenal of nuclear weapons only for peacefull purposes?
why is it treated as almost like a fedearal crime in America for anyone to have debate about Israels WMD's,and why is it fatal to any US politican carreer for even thinking about bringing that up?
10:27 AM ET
January 15, 2012
Lies and deceptions
Iran is the "B-team" of the west .....
1) American invade Iraq , before that Iran has no influence in Iraq but now its different.
2) America came to Afghanistan and Iran again become a major player in afghanistan through "Northen Alliance" .
3)Isreal invade Lebnon , killed thousands of civilians but "Hisbollah" becomes powerful in other words Iran.
4) Libya "thing" happens ( by the west ) , ironically indirectly Iran is the beneficiary.
Every one knows in Gaza that when ever things gets better between Isreal and them ,
Hisbollah start firing rockets , but when Isreal start bombing Gaza than Hisbollah take no action.
The west and America ( crusaders ) will never fire even a rubber bullet on Iran
4:47 PM ET
This article doesn't present proof of a "False Flag Operation" it's just a conspiracy theory.
5:19 PM ET
There's no proof Iran are making nukes either
Yet I am sure you are conbinced they do.
That too is just a conspiracy theory.
Meanwhile, the US has told ISrael to back down and has cancelled military excercises with Israel.
Nothing to see here, more along.
9:00 PM ET
Keeping the Arabs weak.
No one does a better job of keeping the Arabs weak, destitute and oppressed, then Arabs their own leaders.
Regrading the war in Lebanon. Please, read this:
In a TV interview aired on Lebanon's New TV station, Sunday, 27 August, Nasrallah said that he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war: "We do not think, even 1 percent, that the capture led to a war at this time and of this magnitude. I'm convinced and sure that this war was planned and that the capture of these hostages was just their excuse to start their pre-planned war, but if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not."
7:54 AM ET
January 16, 2012
Check the facts before you criticize
If it had nothing to do with the Iranian nuclear program, why did a Israel wasted her precious resources to send covert agents to an enemy's country? Why do you think the US is investing their time discussing with narrow minded politics, or putting pressure on the UN for making Iran nuclear free?
All and all, those countries want Prosperity and Fertility in the free world, so don't judge them for using "unnecessary force".
11:45 AM ET
The long-standing peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan ended wars that were costly to Egypt and Jordan. The result was clearly beneficial to those countries, and in their national interest - once the destruction of Israel was no longer a priority. You somehow make this into an Israeli subterfuge, designed to weaken those countries. The only possible reason to make such a claim is that you consider the destruction of Israel to be a worthwhile goal - which pretty much makes you an anti-Semite, doesn't it?
3:48 PM ET
The MIC and Iran
The real reason the US is heating up the "cold war" with Iran is that the Russians objected to the very expensive anti-missile missile system being installed in Eastern Europe. In order to defuse the Russian complaints the MIC invented the story that the anti-missile missiles were intended to defend Europe from Iran.
Since even a child could see that this is complete hogwash they are trying to bolster their lame story by making it look like Iran is aggressively threatening to build nukes and nuke-carrying missiles. There is no evidence to support this story, but killing Iranian scientists makes it look as if there is.
This is a truly disgusting abuse of basic human rights by the MIC in the interests of making itself richer and more powerful.
12:18 AM ET
January 17, 2012
Perhaps Israel will be defeated as it was by...
Hezbollah when it last dared to invade Lebanon. I have seen pictures of Israeli soldiers crying next to the bodies of their fallen compatriots. Seems like Hezbollah had a few surprises for the Israelis.
9:32 AM ET
I remember some of that text sliding across the screen years ago but in the current light, OBL was in a sense, prophetic. I hope that the American people muster the courage to force a change in foreign policy. Israel is not good for the American people.
9:57 AM ET
January 18, 2012
Iran's credible threat
Kwamcanada's closing sentence said it all. It is not just about regime change, although as long as the radical Shia remain in power, what potential peace resolution is possible? There is a credible threat from Iran. And in some way, it must be dealt with, both in our interest and in the interest of our close and still important ally, Israel. I don't know how we are supposed to twist Israeli arms enough to get them to stop this kind of thing, though. They never seem to give a damn what we say crosses the line. The strength of AIPAC, the competence of Mossad, the power of the American right wing, and the Israeli ability to accurately analyze how far they can go are all factors more difficult to deal with. Regime change is the more simplistic and politically acceptable direction for our government.
10:21 AM ET
Matthew 1987-conspiracy theory
When I heard that two men on a motorcycle had sticky bombed a key Iranian chemist in their nuclear program, my first thought was Mossad. When the Iranians said CIA and Mossad, that seemed plausible, but it also immediately occurred to me that the slick Israelis might just have wanted the Iranians to believe that the CIA was involved. Either way, it wouldn't be the first time that paranoia, or very real fear, of those with a very powerful enemy has been exploited by a third party.
11:13 PM ET
January 19, 2012
Iran is a threat to world peace, not israel
I believe in this case Israel needs to do what it needs to do in order to prevent Iran for gaining nuclear weapons who have already promised to wipe Israel off the map if they ever do. The medicine is simple really. If you're not going to play ball responsibly, you should not get to play at all.
Sadly, the US has its own interests in Oil which doesn't help the situation. They are making the deals to get what they want. US OIL Insurance Deals allow them to secure their place a while longer as a world power. They figure they need to have the upper hand in order to survive.
Oil = power
1:02 PM ET
It's a hard truth to face that we live in a world of anarchy. As American's we call it freedom. When others demand the same freedom to act, ie. Israel, we start doing cartwheels. We can't ask for freedom unless we give freedom. These actions allegedly undertaken by the Israeli's are technically an act of freedom. It is irrelevent whether or not we agree with their methods. We must embrace their right to choose their own path.
This puts the USA in a sticky wicket, to be sure. Life in the big city... or should I say in the new world...
1:41 PM ET
Freedom to support a terrorist organization which sends suicide bombers in Iran????
Your post seems to be nothing but an excuse for the Israelis. Of course Israel has the right to defend itself but just like american "which doesn't fight terror with terror", Israel should also do the same. They are either our ally or not. Time to make up their minds.
here is something for your information; did you know what one of the slogans of the Iranian students was during the last uprising in 2008-2009? it was directed towards the iranian leadership and it was; "Let the Israel and Palestinians be, think about us and our own problems". and you want to support terrorists (with Israeli money and logistics) blow
these people up???
As far as it goes for Iran, it's time for the US administration to fully start supporting Iranian masses and students who been fighting and dying for freedom and democracy for the past 30 years. All public polls show that the Iranian people are amongst the highest pro-Americans in the muslim world, it's time to take advantage of this. The Iranian people need the support of the American, Israeli, and European governments. Such terrorist actions only alienates the Iranian people and strengthens the regime.
2:14 PM ET
I'm a little confused at your definition of anarchy. Freedom does not mean the ability to march across the world doing what you want, when you want to anyone you choose. Anarchy is feeling you can cross the borders of a sovereign country and assassinate their people. I mean, declare war and then cross the border and kill people....that is the way so-called civilizations have done it for eons. But freedom is more the approach the circumspect intelligence officials for the US have operated as outlined in this story. I don't necessarily believe our intelligence system does not have blood on their hands. I just believe that there are other agencies out there who operate much more profligately than us.
1:09 AM ET
Good god. It is always quite impressive to see the contortions that Israel-right-or-wrong supporters go through to defend it no matter what.
This post is a weak instance of "Hasbara 101", where the poster obviously sort of heard what was being taught in class, but doesn't quite grasp it. In this lesson, it is taught to 'use words that Americans associate with and have positive connotations for'. Thus, IMANIBURRELL throws out "freedom", "act", "freedom to act", "right to choose", "freedom", freedom" and more "freedom".
Enh, you're obviously the D student from that Hasbara graduating class.
3:15 AM ET
If you agree that your freedom stops where my nose begins, you will also agree that there is no such thing as freedom to betray your allies by adding and abetting the vicious terrorists while pretending to be somebody who would be at great risk due to such association.
Of course, I respect your freedom to be a trained Hasbara member, but why don't you identify yourself as such?!
There are no friends of Israel. There are people they deem to be useful, like the US, and there are others who could be exploited and dismissed.
Israel is its own ONLY friend. We are GOYIM. Good enough to work on Saturdays, but discharged at the end of the day.
11:33 AM ET
I agree with you in principle, yes. Most of the world actually admires America's freewheeling, open minded culture. Hollywood is actually one of our best ambassadors to the world and our most effective "weapon" is democracy. A full frontal attack would never work, since it would create a rally 'round the flag effect. You have a good point about the effectiveness of black ops as well, but we can't allow rogue states to dictate terms to the world either. Hopefully, our tightening economic sanctions will provide the necessary impetus for regime change. Most of the Iranian population is very young and we need to support their freedom movement in every way possible.
What is good for Israel is good for Iran
By your logic then Iran should also be free to do as it wishes. I hope that you are not saying that Israel is in any way special.
11:19 PM ET
The U.S. needs to let go of
The U.S. needs to let go of its strategic interests in the Middle East (close to impossible) and get the hell out of there - do not support any group or government there and do not give any aid to any of them. Time and again, our involvement in the region has proven not to be an effective way of keeping Russia (mostly in the past) and China (on the rise) at bay. Because Russia and China are the real reasons that we're over there.... and elsewhere in the world.
1:11 PM ET
Payback for this week's events?
Given the murder of an Iranian scientist on his way to work, which stalled the EU-Iran talks that were just starting in Turkey, we should not be surprised that this report is leaking out now. It is an attempt to embarrass Israel, and show despite all its claims, it's more of a headache to America than an asset.
But, what our American media will focus on is that Obama curtailed some cooperation in the early part of his administration. They will give little or no context to his actions, and use that as more evidence that Obama is hostile to Israel.
2:06 PM ET
Did they have to go through
Did they have to go through months of grueling training to learn to sound dumb? Pretend they didn't know the Berlin Wall had come down?
This really shouldn't surprise anyone
After all, the Israelis did the same thing when they went on their little terrorism spree in Dubai. Not to mention, these are people who still celebrate their terrorist attack on the King David hotel.
2:31 PM ET
Not a bit suprised
The US needs to seriously reevaluate our stanch support of Israel. A significant portion of American public is beginning to realize that our support of Israel is counter to American interests in the Middle East. Israel will always look first to its own interests and the US must do the same.No longer can we give Israel our weapons and dollars without Israel giving the US some respect. I support Israel as a nation. I don't support the US being Israel's bank, 911, and bodyguard. The US no longer can put our own boys on the front line of fire just because Israel thinks our lives are worth less or they think they can do whatever they like even if it means causing American casualties. Has the US already forgotten the USS Liberty murders?
2:50 PM ET
"USS Liberty murders"
I'm sure that the vast majority of people who use phrases like "the USS Liberty murders" are ignorant of the declassified NSA report, which is authoritative. The ones who have read it and still make this claim are simply lying anti-Semites.
8:23 PM ET
The Technology on the USS Liberty is how they do False Flags
The majority of terrorism are false flag operations. The United States, that is, the people in the government who really run the government through criminal activities, including the use of PsyOp, are the sponsors of terrorism.
Israels problem is that they are financially codependent on the United States and work with these "evildoers''. War is big business. Name a war that did not begin through false pretenses.
Terrorism, and these lies about these organizations and the use of these Psy Op technologies, is the real danger. Anyone can attack and begin wars and lose their liberties, and say that terrorists are responsible. Anywhere.
6000 american soilders dead and racism against a people and Im saying to the most conservative of these readers, youtube building seven and 9/11.
Building seven at the world trade center was not hit by an airplane and is the most obvious controlled demolition videotaped I have ever seen.
The middle east has been corrupted by these leaders who have been paid off by the USA to prevent big wars. Now that the Arabs have fought for their rights and been taught to hate Israel the same way Americans have been taught there is an Al Qaeda, the question is what is next? Closing of the straits for the rich and the oil prices skyrocket.
But how do you undo years of hatred propaganda? And who is going to control the middle east and stop world war and false flag operations now that the puppets and dictatorships are being challenged or gone? And for the Americans the question is how are they going to change their war lock and load attitude and I give up my civil and constitutional rights attitude for false flag operations- and I believe the news? Or racism against muslims? Who really controls the government and the future because thats my car, thats my family, thats my house, thats my bank account, thats my investment, and thats my country. Im hearing repeats and not one representative has represented stability or truth or my rights.
This is big business. We are the victims. The economy is lost to these wars and the Constitution is gone, and Congress does not represent the will of the people whether you are a democrat or republican.
2:45 PM ET
Come on. Israel attacked the USS Liberty and got away with it by claiming it was an "accident" and having its US allies torpedo a real inquiry. That can only have shown Israel that we will do nothing to stop them, even when it harms our national interests.
Nothing will be done, and Israel will get another free pass. The lesson to Israel will be crystal clear.
3:32 PM ET
Google Pat Tillman
So when the USA killed those British soliders that was not friendly fire?
5:18 PM ET
Did the US come back and strafe the Brits after attacking them?
The Israelis sent in torpedo boats to finish the job. They machine gunned the life rafts of the USS Liberty. That is NOT friendly fire.
You might as well apologize for 9/11.
9:01 PM ET
Was the US an ally of Israel in 1967?
In either case, no one has ever presented a credible explanation as to why Israel would have any gain from attacking or sinking the USS Liberty. The only credible explanation is that it was under fire due to a misunderstanding.
1:24 AM ET
It was Syria
Actually, a good case can be made that the attack on the Liberty was because Israel didn't want the USA to know about the rush to move Israeli armor north in preparation of the offensive on Syria.
If the Americans knew about it, they might have put more pressure on Israel for a quicker ceasefire.
6:07 AM ET
I agree nothing will happened all they have to say to the US government we did what we must do to stop an other Holocaust are you agains that? and the US government will say sorry we made you unhappy sorry we are not Anti-semetic !!!!!!!!!! do all you want and we will deniy knowing it!! But the question is how long the US will support Israel's crime and pretend they had no knowldge of it?
3:41 PM ET
"They machine gunned the life rafts of the USS Liberty."
That's just a complete lie. I'm sure you can probably read such things on anti-Semitic websites, but it never happened. The Liberty's crew never abandoned ship, and there were no life rafts. The Liberty continued under her own power and made it to port.
2:46 PM ET
Not first time
Israelis also posed as American intelligence officials trying to spy on Muslim Americans operating out of their UN mission in NY,
here's the link to the story
2:47 PM ET
3:02 PM ET
Told you so years ago..
Israel has been out of control for decades. There are documents showing how they supported aparthied (nuclear technology). There racist policies concerning Ethiopians and migrant workers, there settlement grab, there using fake British, Germany, Dutch. American passports to assasinate an Arab in a foreign country, there collective punishment against the Palistinians, and countless other International violations. Then we Americans grant them Dual-citizenship.
I am an american. Plain and simple my allegience is to ONE country. My Interest is for one country. I'm sick of the netanyahu coalition setting us up for a show down with Iran.
We need to let Israel Know that there is consequences for there selfish endeavors. There must be a PUBLIC LASHING.
3:34 PM ET
The last US wars were all to save Arabs/Muslims. Clinton went in to save the Muslims in Bosnia. Bush 1 went to save Kuwait. Bush 2 went in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now Obama put us in Libya, Pakistan and now Africa. We have spent trillions in blood and treasure to help Muslims/arabs who still hate us and blame Israel for everything.
4:07 PM ET
It doesn't matter how much Arab or Muslim butt the US kisses, they will always break wind in our faces.
For years using the US (great Satan) and Israel (little Satan) as scapegoats has relieved the autocratic leaders of the nations from the troubles of being accountable for their own corrupt governance. Its all made even easier by the extremists on both left and right wings who are rabidly anti-semitic and will spin any tale to make their POV seem more reasonable than reality suggests.
5:22 PM ET
So you approve of dead Americans
That is irrelevant when it comes to dead Americans. You effectively say that Americans must die because Arabs are bad people.
That is pathetic.
6:45 AM ET
Told you so years ago
I agree with you 100% however; one must understand unless we change the system that allows minority to dominate our elections we will be en slaved by israel and its lobbiest they control washington pure and simple.
Change those Israel asks jumb and say how high!! They do all the things that are against America and still be the only nation that is free from punishment.
3:11 PM ET
I completely agree with DAVIDFERDI
IMANIBURRELL, you must be an agent of Israel to post such non-sense.
The truth of the matter is that Israel has and contnues to perform false flag operations in hope of creating a war between Iran and America. This means that my very children are being put in harms way of death in such a conflict. America needs to take back their nuclear weapons from Israel, ttake away their military support of Israel, and let Israel deal with it's problems, end of story. The fact that Israel has put my childrens lives in danger makes me extremely angry and makes me want to eliminate Israel all together, what a bunch of cowardly, weak, pathetic, deceptive, degenerate peieces of c___ Mossad is and every Israel military and intelligence personel. The more information i find out about Israel, the more i want it swept from the easrt permanently.
3:47 PM ET
"FACTS" or S P E C U L A T I O N ??
Israeli citizens, the IDF, have thick skin. The Mossad is so mysterious that I have NO idea
whether they react to stories.
Israelis are used to the stories that abound about "Israeli covert" operations.
Some are ashamed, some are scared, most I suspect, are too Israeli to believe off-hand, without PROOF, stories about Israeli failures, or successes.
Of course it is the nature of "covert operations" that the general public , including the victims,
do not know that the operation has even taken place.
This gives room for .... S P E C U L A T I O N when for various reasons Israel is accused of
being the source of some discovered action.
To S P E C U L A T E on the basis factless information, stories, requires a simple mind like whi has cursed us out for (or is it anti_Israel provocation??).
Now I don't doubt that the US, Great Britain, Iraqis, Saudis, Iranian themselves...and YES. Israel are are responsible for anti-Iranian operations...which ones ??
3:23 AM ET
Speaking of false flag..
We Don't Know the Half....
Of how israel abuses our trust and our tax dollars! Just one more example of how US foreign policy is being highjacked by israel!
3:16 PM ET
timing is everything
As some have noted, in a all of nothing high stakes game of survivial israel will and should do what it must. If the US doesn't have the stomach for it, I guarantee you israel does. There are no options. but for the cia right now to try to use this to distance itself from ties to anti iranian opposition, is frankly weak. who runs cia? you got it...leon panetta who just 3 weeks ago was turning his venom on israel ...like a weasel...the fix is in boys....unless obama is out in 2012, the fix is in...now he's talking to the taliban, and meeting with the brotherhood...oh yea, its all going perfectly well with obama....uh huh....
unamed sources???? an dont tell me jundallah isnt working with cia...come on....that's laughable. Anyhow, all intel agencies have to lie...its what they do...and given the fact that iran is marching towards nukes and the US is all talk, then something has to be done. Both Bush and O have shrunk from the dilemma...both have allowed this downward spiral to take place instead of taking action. Its a slow train wreck.....I mean, does the US really think Iran is just going to piss away billions of dollars on nukes just because they are asked to nicely? sanctions are hurting the people, not the program. Everyone is full of holier than though reasons for why iran should be allowed to have nukes....but does anyone really think that's gonna work out well? really? The FACT is. the CIA can't afford to be so bloody sanctimonious and lilly white these days. trust me, you keep going down that PC road and you are going to rue the day.
Personally, I could give a rats you know what about this report. Israel is doing what it must in the absence of anyone else stepping up to the plate. Dont tell me the CIA hasn't gotten its hands dirty...i'd hate for the mossad, or unnamed souerces in the israeli intel community to start to expose the US for some of their secret deeds...wouldn't that be something.
3:26 PM ET
Flase Flag Shock
The only shock in this story is that the author and his ilk are shocked. We live in a very dangerous world where all manner of good and evil collide. Unfortunately, the current generation is composed of a bunch of spoiled individuals who never have gotten calluses on their hands - the only danger they have faced is carpel tunnel from sitting at their computers. The Greatest Generation knew about hardship and danger having endured the Depression and sacrificed during WW II. This author and others think that sacrifice is not having the most current Iphone.
These sort of "dirty tricks" have always occurred, are occurring now, and will occur in the future by very government including our own. To all those indignant, shocked readers, get off your butts, join the military or go to a third world country and live/work there. Only then will you have any credibility to comment.
3:29 PM ET
well said. cia does this stuff all the time...get over it all you anti's! lol
I agree that the US engages in false flag activities. I don't think that is what concerns most readers of this article. I will be shocked if you can name an equivalent such "dirty trick" against by the US against Israel such as the one in this article, the US Liberty, or Rachel Corie.
3:30 PM ET
With any luck this will knock off US soldiers peeing on dead people off the front page.
3:31 PM ET
Was there any doubt?
This isn't Israeli Intelligence first time at using the guise of being US Intelligence.
Guess USA will now be drawn into another god awful war in mideast.
And we will once again have nothing to gain from it.
3:44 PM ET
I've said for years that Israel is a yoke around our neck. (banned from commenting on HP for saying so) 315 million people in this country are automatic targets because of our relationship with Israel. For 40 years we've suffered oil embargoes, embassy bombings, kidnappings and murders, airline bombings, troops killed in their barracks, the cost of homeland security and searches at airports, 9/11 and two costly, costly, wars because of our support for Israel. AIPAC works against the interests of the American people. And, the politicians that are owned by AIPAC are the very ones that make targets out of the 315 million US citizens. It's all wrong!
AIPAC and the Israelis don't give a d*** about the American people.
3:56 PM ET
Noses and what is under them
Interesting that it was done under the very noses of the CIA, but without its knowledge. Like, I mean, how does that happen. Reminds me of a word much used during the Iran-Contra revelations: "deniability."
Gets you to wondering who came up with the idea and who supplied the cash.
6:21 PM ET
No, this story makes it clear that the CIA *knew* about this.
And they took it all the way up to the President to get something *done* about this.
And..... nothing was done.
Bush exploded, vented his spleen in the Oval Office and then....... nothing.
Nothin' at all.
That ain't the CIA's fault because, honestly, in an atmosphere where even the President is too scared to rock the boat then who in the CIA is going to pluck up the courage?
4:12 PM ET
Aside from spy fiction and loopy unsupported conspiracy theories, can anyone show a clear example of a SUCCESSFUL "false flag" operation?
The closest historical equivalents being the "Marco Polo Bridge" Incident, Reichstag burning and the provocation for the invasion of Poland. All of them were sniffed out to be utter bullshit from the get-go by the general public. So we can't consider them successful by any stretch of the imagination.
It appears to be more fodder for people looking for excuses or confirmation bias than anything resembling a real and supposedly oft used practice.
No evidence of a party acting in a certain fashion, it must be someone else using a "false flag". It is both convenient and utterly dishonest as a form of discourse.
5:33 AM ET
Ever heard of the Reichstag Fire Spood?
Was that not a succesfful false flag operation?
What about the Great Fire of Rome that Nero orchestrated?
4:14 PM ET
False Flag operation
I suggest reading up on the Lavon affair. There's a false flag job that bears revisiting!
1:21 PM ET
Dave SA and Neo-Left
Again you miss the point here. "Successful" being the operative term. Both the Reichstag burning and Lavon Affair were sniffed out as bullshit pretty much immediately after the events.
There has been very very few, if any, instances of the tactic actually working but it is frequent fodder for conspiracy theorists. Mostly because it depends on complete absence of actual information. Anything to the contrary just gets flagged down as phony propaganda for the other side.
5:16 PM ET
Teh Reichstag was not sniffed out, nor was
the brunign of Rome until long after the fact.
Hence, they were both very successful.
>> There has been very very few, if any, instances of the tactic actually working but it is frequent fodder for conspiracy theorists.
Gulf of Tonkien?
The sinking of the Maine in Havana harbor?
4:21 PM ET
another false flag
4:42 PM ET
If you are still a "trufer" in this day and age, you need your head checked.
You know your POV is probably batshit insane when even Popular Mechanics and Penn and Teller are calling your views idiotic.
3:31 AM ET
Those darn false falgs...I mean "conspiracy theories" seem to get us every time.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98.
God forbid should we believe our own lying eyes.
4:25 PM ET
Just a little info about the author
"Mark Perry, is a former adviser to Yasser Arafat and is now director of the Conflicts Forum, which advocates talking to Hamas and Hezbullah. In other words, he has an agenda."
The guy has a lot of appeal to you guys but a big problem with presenting actual facts.
The story is bullshit.
The first is that the author of this story, Mark Perry, was the same author who wound a tale of General Petraeus blaming Israel for dead American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There is no actual proof besides hearsay. The author cites internal CIA memos but doesn't link to them, so there's no way to check them for proof or any kind of context, we have to rely on the (not so trustworthy) author to interpret them for us. That's assuming that these memos even exist at all, which we do not know yet.
Finally, there's an internal consistency problem within the story. The CIA forbids contact with the Jundallah, and it goes without saying that the Mossad wouldn't tell us about these activities. So if that's the case, how did the CIA find out? There's no mention of any other intelligence group blowing the whistle, and I don't see how spy cameras or drones could have uncovered it. For the CIA to know about it they would have to be inside the Jundallah itself. But, according to the article, they aren't.
4:49 PM ET
"So if that's the case, how did the CIA find out? "
Ummm.. we have CIA assets in Afghanistan and Pakistan? We keep track of terrorist activity in the area? We have drone flying overhead? The Pakistanis tipped us off?
If that is the strongest part of your argument, you need to practice.
4:59 PM ET
You really have to read closely if you are going with sarcasm
Some logical holes in your rebuttal
Assets in Pakistan and Afghanistan are not assets in Iran, where Jundallah operates exclusively. Plus there is no mention of our assets or any intelligence agency blowing the whistle here.
More to the point how are drones and spyplanes supposed to detect whether someone is in the employ of another. This sort of information would have to come from within the organization. One which allegedly the CIA has no contact with.
Again, we have an entire story based on documents which only the author has claimed exist and we have no links to. In other words, hearsay. Especially from an author who is notoriously unreliable when it comes to facts and has a clear agenda to push.
The reason courts don't allow hearsay is because it is inherently unreliable and prone to fabrication.
So who else is corroborating his story? Anyone? Anyone?
5:33 PM ET
"Assets in Pakistan and Afghanistan are not assets in Iran, where Jundallah operates exclusively. Plus there is no mention of our assets or any intelligence agency blowing the whistle here."
Sweet Flying Spaghetti Monster - Jundallah carries out attacks in Iran, but is based in Pakistan. We have assets in Pakistan to keep an eye on groups like Jundallah. Look at a map - the two nations share a border. Iran has requested the Pakistanis to crack down on them.
"More to the point how are drones and spyplanes supposed to detect whether someone is in the employ of another. This sort of information would have to come from within the organization. One which allegedly the CIA has no contact with."
The drones take pictures. Someone in Langley looks at the pictures, and says, "Who are these guys?" Since we have plenty of assets in Afghanistan & Pakistan, we investigate and find out a bunch of Israelis are hanging around.
"Again, we have an entire story based on documents which only the author has claimed exist and we have no links to. In other words, hearsay."
Using that reasoning - that pretty much dismisses Israel's entire case against Iran. Last I check, the CIA does not allow websites to setup links to their classified material. Lay off the weed before typing.
5:55 PM ET
Of course you now beg the question
If CIA documents are not so publicly available, how did Mr. Perry get a hold of them?
As for the drones and spyplanes, Perry didn't say that they were even used to support his story. It also brings up the question as to how the CIA would even have known about this in the first place.
Most importantly, if this is such a breaking story, why isn't anyone else reporting it?
6:16 PM ET
Standard reporting methodology
Again, this report, like other reports that come from DC, makes extensive use of people speaking without having their names mentioned in the article. Much like the supposed "proof" we have of Iran's nuclear program, our intelligence agencies do not disclose their methods. If such reporting is acceptable for getting us into war, it seems it should be acceptable for preventing one, no?
Since Israel does not actually do anything for the U.S., we would not lose anything if we just treated them like a normal country. They have never fought alongside our troops, they have not captured any Al Qaeda members. They are not a major trading partner, nor a source of investment. Aside from missionaries, they are not a popular tourist destination. They really have nothing to offer us.
6:26 PM ET
"how did the CIA find out?"
Well, let's see......
It follows known Mossad agents, and sees them make contact with Jundallah.
The HEAD of Jundallah is captured, and he says the CIA has made contact with Jundallah.
Add 2 and 2 together = Mossad is making contact with Jundallah posing as the CIA.
It ain't exactly rocket science...
6:56 PM ET
Spood is right. Israel would never dream of doing something to hurt its allies; would never dream of employing Egyptian Jews to bomb British and American targets and then try and blame it on the Muslim Brotherhood, for instance; would never dream of using the identities of British and Australian citizens to assassinate a Hamas official in Dubai. And if, perchance it did and was caught red-handed, it would 'fess up straight away, just like it did with Jonathan Pollard.
Spood is also right about another thing. Why didn't the author post links to the CIA internal memos? I thought the CIA was in the habit of posting all their memos online.
11:55 PM ET
"If CIA documents are not so publicly available, how did"....
Voice: Mr. Mark Perry?
Perry: Yes. Can I help you?
Voice: Indeed you can. Can you be at CIA headquarters at Langley at 9:00hours?
Perry: Err, yeah. Why?
Voice: Mr Perry, we have a story to tell, and we'd like you to hear it.
Perry: What's it about?
Voice: We'll show you everything you need to know when you get here.
Perry: Err, OK, I'll be there.
Voice: Thank you. You won't be disappointed.
Honestly, SPOOD, it doesn't take a rocket-scientist to work out that Perry got a hold of this story *BECAUSE* the CIA wanted him to get it, not *IN* *SPITE* of the CIA trying to keep him away from it.
12:56 AM ET
SPOOD "outs" Perry by referring us to campus-watch!
Hey, SPOOD, why not put the icing on the cake by asking Alan Dershowitz or Daniel Pipes to character-assassinate Mark Perry?
Perry was an unofficial advisor to Yasser Arafat.
In what way is that a crime?
How does that disqualify him from journalism?
Mind you, a quick search of Mark Perry's body of work shows that he is much more than simply a no-hoper advisor to a dead guy.
Perry has authored eight books on topics as diverse (and, in this case, useful) as American Civil War military leaders, USA military/civilian control, the role of the CIA, and the Israel/Palestine Peace Process.
Or, in short: he would have been
a) an ideal person for Arafat to ask advice from, and
b) an ideal person for the CIA to approach if they were in possession of A Good Story That They Wanted Told.
You know, a story like this one.....
But by all means go ahead and shoot the messenger, but I don't think that's gonna do you much good.
After all, I don't doubt that the CIA is already busy ensuring that this story has "legs", and I'm certain they'll use their second-tier team of tame journalists to do it.
5:35 AM ET
Spood doesn't tackle teh argument, so he attacks the author
Typical Hasbrat strategy. What else is he going to do?
5:38 AM ET
Did you even bother to read this articel Spood
or did you skip right to the comments section?
It's explained how Perry get ahold and or saw the documents.
>> It also brings up the question as to how the CIA would even have known about this in the first place.
No it doesn't. It also explains that the Mossad show them their crazy plans on many occasions.
>> Most importantly, if this is such a breaking story, why isn't anyone else reporting it?
No one was reporting that the WMD stories were lies in the lead up the Iraq war either, becasue it was policitally too hot. So tell me Spood, does that mean there were WMD?
5:46 AM ET
You're losing the plot Spood
>> Plus there is no mention of our assets or any intelligence agency blowing the whistle here.
Again, if you;d read this report, you'd know that out intelligence agency has indeed slown the whistle by making documents available to Perry and others.
>> More to the point how are drones and spyplanes supposed to detect whether someone is in the employ of another.
They don't need drones to figure that out. They captue Jundallah members and inerrogate them.
>> This sort of information would have to come from within the organization. One which allegedly the CIA has no contact with.
Obviously, when they capture it's members, there is contact.
>> Again, we have an entire story based on documents which only the author has claimed exist and we have no links to.
Not true. If you'd read the article, you'd know that CIA inelligence officers had also tgestified to their existence and authenticity.
>> Especially from an author who is notoriously unreliable when it comes to facts and has a clear agenda to push.
Notoriously unreliable? Based on what track record of unreliability?
>> The reason courts don't allow hearsay is because it is inherently unreliable and prone to fabrication.
Sadly, governments aren't as selective, hence the lies from Israel and he US that Iran is making nukes.
5:52 AM ET
Please read the damn articel Spood, you're embarassing yourself
>> If CIA documents are not so publicly available, how did Mr. Perry get a hold of them?
he didn't get ahold of them. He was allowed to read them, not take them home with him.
>> As for the drones and spyplanes, Perry didn't say that they were even used to support his story.
So why did you bring up drones?
There are hundreds of ways for the CIA to find out. If their own assets on the ground hear stories about CIA agents recruiting Jundallah, and this gets back to Langley, then surely they would investigate.
They make a call to Tel Aviv. Israel confirms of ducks the question.
Yeah right. It's not as if there wouldn't be creams of anti Semtism from the ADL and AIPAC right?
Was the Steve Rosen espionage case widely reported? Why not?
1:35 PM ET
Hurling insults is not winning an argument
You guys assumed a lot without actually having anything to back up your assertions. As long as it goes along with your given POV you will accept any kind of bullshit. No matter how shaky. What could have happened, isn't like saying what did happen. You are still relying on unadulterated hearsay.
Again it begs the question as to who has bothered to corroborate his story.
The sole source of all of Mr. Perry's assertions are an alleged search "deep within the archives of American Intelligence services" of the previous administration.
So why would Mr. Perry, a man whose prior associations would undoubtedly put him in almost a negative security clearance have access to such documents? We are not talking about things which would be declassified, he did not mention any kind of whistleblower or even wikileaks here.
Fact of the matter is, Mr. Perry has a history of lying to suit his agenda. Why should this be any different.
There is a ton of reasonable doubt here. Not that you guys would care.
"The sole source of all of Mr. Perry's assertions are"
"The sole source of all of Mr. Perry's assertions are an alleged search "deep within the archives of American Intelligence services" of the previous administration."
Let me stop you right there and point out that this is a lie.
The SOURCE of Mark Perry's assertions are the six - count 'em, six - CIA officials past and present who assert to Perry that this is what went down.
The archives that they showed Perry are their CONFIRMATION that their assertions are true.
Honestly, SPOOD, you do talk monumental nonsense at times.
Well, actually, all the time.
5:14 PM ET
Nor is using straw men and ad homines Spood
>> Hurling insults is not winning an argument
Take your own advice.
>> You guys assumed a lot without actually having anything to back up your assertions.
Says he who claism Iran spent billions building and comminsioning a nuclear power reactor to fool the world into thinking they were making nukes.
>> As long as it goes along with your given POV you will accept any kind of bullshit. No matter how shaky.
That's an ad homiem, and no way to win an argument.
>> Again it begs the question as to who has bothered to corroborate his story.
No it doesn't, but the recent reports from the WSJ (that the US is clamping down on ISrael) and Haaretz (that the US has cancelled US/Israel military drills suggests there is substance to this story.
>> The sole source of all of Mr. Perry's assertions are an alleged search "deep within the archives of American Intelligence services" of the previous administration.
False. If you'd read the article , you;d knwo he also refers to CIA officers.
>> So why would Mr. Perry, a man whose prior associations would undoubtedly put him in almost a negative security clearance have access to such documents?
There is nothing negative about his prior associations.
>> We are not talking about things which would be declassified, he did not mention any kind of whistleblower or even wikileaks here.
Irrelevant. CIA officers contacted him and shared documents with that are secret.
>> Fact of the matter is, Mr. Perry has a history of lying to suit his agenda.
Camera can't even get the basic facts right. It was not Patreaus who made those allegations, it was a report prepared for teh Joint Chiefs of Staff.
4:37 PM ET
he's got a history of bias.
i for one am glad the marines pissed on them....they should piss on perry too.
11:01 PM ET
You are obviously shameless and sick...a disgrace to the human race. Not even animals urinate on the dead. The incident is another national disgrace by all standards...a major violation of the military's code of honor, and you applaud it? You should not post such revolting thoughts...
6:35 PM ET
TIMING, you are disgusting.
4:57 PM ET
Israeli's are the masters of propaganda, and anti-propaganda.
I KNOW that the Israeli government actually hires young adults to surf the net and counter thing said about them. Just be aware when these so-called. Pro-zionist Dual-american citizen come on and attempt feeble justification of their actions. When you see that. Just visualize these guys sitting in there secure "net villiage" , creating a list of responses and tabulating the percentage of inter-net opinion, then submitting it to the minister of information who informs Natanyahu of this,then he makes adjustment in his messaging. The world KNOWS
5:05 PM ET
Ah the ad hominem! Last refuge of the BS artist
You know bullshit.
When faced with an obvious logical hole in the story, you are going on the attack and making spurious and paranoid claims.
Its all part of the "vast Zionist conspiracy" keeping you down I guess. Keeping you from having to support your ideas with facts or logic. Replacing them with slogans and paranoid ranting.
So who else has corroborated Mr. Perry's story?
Is there even a verifiable source of these memos?
5:24 PM ET
Has anyone corrorborated your denial
If you think Foreign Policy is BS, stop reading it.
Shoot the messenger. An old way of changing the subject. Won't work, sorry to say.
5:49 PM ET
Wow, you are really pouring on the stupid here
My denial is not a denial at all. Its an attack on the basis for the author's assertions. There is a difference here.
I don't have to contradict his assertions. I just stated he hasn't given us any credible support for his claims from the outset. Perry doesn't even bother to provide links for the source of these documents which allegedly form the basis of the article.
One does not have to rebut statements which are unfounded hearsay. It can just be rejected out of hand as is.
But of course since the article works well with your POV, you will defend it vigorously and sling any personal attack possible. Obviously you aren't doing much to rebut what I am saying here. So this is all you have left.
Again, has anyone corroborated Perry's account of these CIA documents?
Anyone at all?
1:48 AM ET
"Again, has anyone corroborated Perry's account
"Again, has anyone corroborated Perry's account of these CIA documents?"
SPOOD, the story has only just broken.
"Anyone at all?"
On the first day that the story is published?
Heck, dare I suggest that you are demanding the impossible.
Ask again in a week's time i.e. when all the other investigative journalists have had time to, you know, actually i.n.v.e.s.t.i.g.a.t.e. this story.
5:56 AM ET
Look at Spood projecting!
>> When faced with an obvious logical hole in the story, you are going on the attack and making spurious and paranoid claims.
Here is Spood going on the attack and making spurious and paranoid claims, then assusing otehrs fo doing it. Too funny.
>> So who else has corroborated Mr. Perry's story?
Ever heard of exclusive stories?
Let me ask you. Who is denying these allegations?
>> Is there even a verifiable source of these memos?
6:00 AM ET
Links to classfies material Spood?
Listen Spood, I know you're not coherent and rational on the best of days, but if Perry was contacted by the CIA and shown documents, but not allowed to keep them or make copies, then how would he provide links to them?
>> I just stated he hasn't given us any credible support for his claims from the outset.
So tell me Spood. If a reported sees something important, and does not have footage or other evidence to support his claims, should he not bother to report it?
>> Perry doesn't even bother to provide links for the source of these documents which allegedly form the basis of the article.
What makes you think there are any links to what are likely to be classified documents?
>> Again, has anyone corroborated Perry's account of these CIA documents?
Did anyone corroborate Sy Hersh's epose of the Mai Lai massacre? No, because he broke it exclusively.
5:09 PM ET
owners of U.S political system
A career politician will be doomed in America if he criticizes Israel. So with this info on their hands, what scenario could prevent them from doing anything they wish for their own interests? There is a segment of society in U.S that strongly believe Israel is part and parcel of American bloodline. Any suggestion that it's a foreign state with a strange language like Portugal, Oman or Zimbabwe is repugnant. An American president 'going ballistic' is least of their concern.
Paranoid conspiracy much?
It doesn't help that most of the critics tend to be political extremists or people willing to go to bat for countries or organizations which have either done us harm or seek to do so.
Does it really help your credibility when you take the same line of argument as Neo-Nazis, Leftover Radicals, Islamicists and boosters for international terrorist organizations?
Its amazing how easily people adopt the junk of Protocols of Elders of Zion for the modern age.
What few sane critics in the bunch are drowned out by such a vast sea of idiots.
5:26 PM ET
Spare us the hasbara
Are you paid to impugn the USA? Does it help your credibility when you attack patriots? Must we all pledge fealty to Israel to satisfy you?
You might as well say that Hitler didn't kill 5 million Jews.
Perhaps you should change your name to David Irving.
5:39 PM ET
Its not my fault this article has a gaping hole in logic
sorry if you seem offended by pointing out a fairly wide hole in the logic of this article. I know it appeals to you Israel haters but its not like you guys are relying facts or credible evidence to support your views.
Btw David Irving is one of your guys.
1:54 AM ET
pointing out a fairly wide hole in the logic of this article"
You have made not the slightest attempt to poke holes in the LOGIC of this article.
All you have done is:
1) Suggest that Mark Perry is not your idea of a jounalist, and
2) Suggest that there has been no independent confirmation of his claims.
Neither is a flaw in the LOGIC of the article, which would require you to find something ILLOGICAL in the very idea that Mossad agents would attempt to impersonate CIA operatives in order to recruit Iranian terrorists.
LOGICALLY, that makes perfect sense to me, even if it sounds thoroughly reprehensible.
4:16 AM ET
JPost readers are discussing the article, too
The same arguments as the local Hasbara members are presenting.
Btw, Hasbara is inviting new members! Training is provided free of charge ))
6:05 AM ET
Neo Nazis are not pro ISrael Spood
>> Does it really help your credibility when you take the same line of argument as Neo-Nazis
You mean these neo Nazis?
>> Leftover Radicals, Islamicists and boosters for international terrorist organizations?
How ironic. Here is a story about Israel supporting Islamicists and acting as boosters for international terrorist organizations, and you're accusing others of it.
>> Its amazing how easily people adopt the junk of Protocols of Elders of Zion for the modern age.
I wish I could say it amazes me how ofgetn Israeli shiils pulls the " Elders of Zion" carnard whenever they run out of arguments.
In spite of what the hasbarites are saying in these comments, this operation is so in the character of Israeli intelligence that no one of any importance will even try to deny it.
The recently retired head of the Mossad did say that war with Iran "is the stupidist thing [he] ever heard," because Israel already had a program in place to frustrate Iran's nuclear program indefinitely. The incident under discussion in Perry's article and the recent killing of the young Iranian chemist are just two of the many black ops in that Israeli program.
5:44 PM ET
Wow, you guys really don't like to hear another POV
>>>"this operation is so in the character of Israeli intelligence that no one of any importance will even try to deny it."
So in the absence of evidence, it must be Israeli action based on your view of "the character of Israeli intelligence". Riiight.
After all, nobody of any importance has confirmed it to be true, so it has to be. If its not denied, it always has to be true. I guess that has some twisted logic to it. Especially in light of the total lack of any credible evidence to support the view.
>>>"The recently retired head of the Mossad did say that war with Iran "is the stupidist thing [he] ever heard," because Israel already had a program in place to frustrate Iran's nuclear program indefinitely."
And do you have a link to that source or is this something else you are just going to take on faith because it supports your POV
6:05 PM ET
Dagan calls attacking Iran a "stupid idea"
The former intelligence chief, Meir Dagan, who stepped down after eight years in the post, has made several unusual public appearances and statements in recent weeks. He made headlines a few weeks ago when he asserted at a Hebrew University conference that a military attack on Iran would be “a stupid idea.”
Because you are apparently too lazy, or too afraid of the results, to use Google.
11:47 PM ET
"So in the absence of evidence,"
Did you even bother to read this article, SPOOD?
The CIA is oh-so-obviously using Perry to TELL EVERYONE that it is Israel who is behind all these assassinations, because they are TELLING YOU that these hits are being carried out by Jundallah under the direction of the Mossad.
Are you really this thick, or are you just playing at being dumb?
7:48 AM ET
Of course he didn't read it Johnboy
Seeind as he hates to read, here's Perry explaining it.
7:49 AM ET
Robert Gatesa and Leon Panetta also called an attack
a stupid idea.
7:20 AM ET
Thanks for the video link. What matters is not whether this event was ‘true’, although I see no reason to assume it wasn’t, but what effect its release can have right now. Deciding at the time ‘not to rock the boat’ doesn’t mean burying the matter for all time, it can equally mean putting it somewhere for possible future use It is unlikely this ‘revelation’ will come as a surprise to the Iranians. In the video Perry suggests that it has been dusted down now as a signal to Iran that if Israel does attack her it will not be at the instigation or even with the approval of the US. The same message may also be directed at other nations. Assuming it works it could detach the US from suspicion of instigating any attack, and consequential responsibility for the fallout, while still leaving the US free to intervene if the red line is crossed and passage through the straits is threatened, in effect keeping the matter of the straits separate from the Israeli attack. This would appear consistent with Obama’s pre-Libyan strategy, would it not? It is also clever and Obama is a clever guy.
5:35 PM ET
False flase flag
What surprises me is that some of you actually believe the CIA officers, that Israel is all to blame for the dead Iranians. That they were the ones who actually recruited the terrorist organization.
I suspect this entire story is an attempt to deflect blame from the US's own operations through the CIA, and on to some other country and agency. Just like the torture issue. The US says its bad when Japan waterboards our troops. But its okay when we waterboard other people.
6:31 PM ET
Because, of course, the quickest way to be marked for advancement within the CIA is to come up with a scheme that falsely accuses Israel of something that you, yourself, have done, and especially when you could pick any number of other dudes to be your oh-so-convenient fall-guys.
As career moves go that's got "winner" written all over it, doesn't it?
What is article all about
The article seems to suggest that USA and Israel have holier than thou relation and Israelis don't do anything without US consent.
CIA has a recorded history of saving 500 Nazi criminals and Israel has convicted spies like Jonathan Pollard in American imprisonment. Iran is a bigger danger to Israel and Mossad is working to neutralize the danger. Mossad agents posing as CIA agents is not a big deal.
6:09 PM ET
Perry's POV seems to make this story seem just a bit far fetched
This is not the first time that Mark Perry has pointed to un-named CIA agents (in this case both active and retired) to back his story.
The problem is, Perry's background, not just as Yasser Arafat's confidant for 15 years, but his place as a report for the Palestine Report, and his son's place as a reporter for al-Jazeera, makes this story seemingly a bit fishy.
This paragraph alone seems to be a mesh of 'spy thriller' anectodes:
"Interviews with six currently serving or recently retired intelligence officers over the last 18 months have helped to fill in the blanks of the Israeli false-flag operation. In addition to the two currently serving U.S. intelligence officers, the existence of the Israeli false-flag operation was confirmed to me by four retired intelligence officers who have served in the CIA or have monitored Israeli intelligence operations from senior positions inside the U.S. government."
It's six, no it's four, no its two, but two plus six, or current or retired, but it doesn't matter how many, because after all, these were "senior" operatives who monitor Israeli intelligence, from the CIA or no, from other parts of the US Government.
Or not. Lot's of smoke, lots of innuendo, and lots of "OMG, how brazen", but not a whole lot of evidence.
But, as the attorney noted, there's a whole lot of motivation for Mr. Perry.
6:14 PM ET
Perry then goes on to say:
"The decision was controversial inside the CIA, where officials were forced to shut down "some key intelligence-gathering operations," a recently retired CIA officer confirmed."
So not only is Israel to blame, but now President Obama, is at fault for shutting down 'key' intelligence gathering operations.
6:17 PM ET
And of course, Perry wraps it all up neatly in a nice little bow
"The issue has now returned to the spotlight with the string of assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists and has outraged serving and retired intelligence officers who fear that Israeli operations are endangering American lives. "
6:19 PM ET
Ultimately, if we're to believe this article, Mark Perry
Has been speaking with over a dozen CIA agents who feel free to discuss operational activities of the US espianage activities against Iran as well as operational activities of Israel's intelligence agency that it shares with the US.
I mean really, is it that easy to get our agents to open up and blab?
Or, if I were Iran, why bother trying to figure out what's going on in the CIA or Mossad, just grab Mark Perry and get him to spill it all.
"speaking with over a dozen CIA agents who feel free to"
Dude, the CIA ***wants*** people to know that it wasn't them who has been blowing up Iranian scientists, and Perry was chosen by them to be their messenger, not vice versa.
Man, are you really that clueless?
5:00 AM ET
MArk Perry was representing Arafat in the U.S how can we
Believe all these anonymous sources of his, that just shows the man's morality.
For money he would represent the biggest terrorist on earth.
6:10 AM ET
JACOB's ad hominem
>> The problem is, Perry's background, not just as Yasser Arafat's confidant for 15 years, but his place as a report for the Palestine Report, and his son's place as a reporter for al-Jazeera, makes this story seemingly a bit fishy.
Why should any of this be a problem?
He was Arafat's confidant in the role of a reporter. Nothing wrong with that.
What did he write about the Palestine Report that was so objectionable?
What is wrong with his son being s a reporter for al-Jazeera? High ranking US officials frequently appear on al-Jazeera.
>> It's six, no it's four, no its two, but two plus six, or current or retired, but it doesn't matter how many, because after all, these were "senior" operatives who monitor Israeli intelligence, from the CIA or no, from other parts of the US Government.
Epic fail. You are trying too hard to present contradictions where there aren't any.
>> Lot's of smoke, lots of innuendo, and lots of "OMG, how brazen", but not a whole lot of evidence.
So Jacob, is Iran making nukes? If so, where is your evidence?
6:12 AM ET
Poor Jacob - scraping the bottom of the barrel
>> So not only is Israel to blame, but now President Obama, is at fault for shutting down 'key' intelligence gathering operations.
Could you be any more desperate? Ther is no suggestion that he is blaming Obama.
6:15 AM ET
Yes, CIA agents have opened up and blabbed
>> I mean really, is it that easy to get our agents to open up and blab?
It is when they are outraged. Ever heard of an orhanizatin called Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity?
>> Or, if I were Iran, why bother trying to figure out what's going on in the CIA or Mossad, just grab Mark Perry and get him to spill it all.
Or if I were a pissed of CIA veteran who wants to protect American lives, I'd just grab Mark Perry and get him to spill it all, so that the Iranians get the message.
6:18 AM ET
So what Buddah?
>> MArk Perry was representing Arafat in the U.S how can we
>> For money he would represent the biggest terrorist on earth
That's hillarious. Another accusation that Perry has gotten rich representing terrorists. Meanwhile, neocons in Washington are lobbying on behalf of the MEK.
We give Israel money every year yet...
We cannot get anything from them in return. Why are we giving tax payers money to Israel, Egypt or Pakistan?
Surely that money should be put to better use within the US. We could invest those billions we send out under the guise of "aide' in the infrastructure.
7:08 PM ET
Time To Repeal The National Security Act
Swamped by Cryptocrats and very few moves left before it implodes.
7:35 PM ET
Israel Has Used America for 60 Years
One thing I agree with Ron Paul about, we need to get out of the affairs of other countries and stop foreign aid. $3 BILLION DOLLARS aid to Israel only buys us lies and insults from Netanyahu. Terrorism is deception. Israel was founded on terrorism. The motto of the Mossad is "By way of deception thou shall wage war."
Israel has dragged AMERICA down the same spider hole they live in.
7:43 PM ET
Mark Perry is a an excellent wealth of information as usual.
It is good to see the CIA using back channels such as Foreign Policy to assert some independence from the AIPAC mouth-piece bureaucrats in Washington and their Mossad handlers in Israel aka Occupied Palestine. The zionists have no right to use America as a shield on their reckless adventures for Zionist domination.
I'd like to hear more of the political thoughts of Mr Perry's CIA sources.
Electing Mr Paul as president is the surest way to achieve the second American revolution needed to gain our independence from the grossly disproportionate influence of the Zionists and their Christian Zionist pets.
Would the CIA ever consider going on strike if they continue having to place the Zionists' aims first, even at the risk of American security?
It'd be great if Mark Perry used his contacts in the CIA to release all the dirt they had to bury over the years to protect our "ally" Israel; show us the files on the USS Liberty massacre or the jewish terrorist group Irgun's close, working relationship with Hitler's Germany and support for the holocaust
8:48 PM ET
Hidden documents, hidden sources, biased author.
This is called journalism? Sounds more like dirt slinging.
Am I supposed to believe that Perry got access to secret CIA memos and spoke to two serving CIA agents about this? If that is the case, the US has some major security issues to deal with in its intelligence services.
How does it happen that an author who spends most of his time talking and advising terrorists get such access to CIA information?
I also love the repeated claims about how the CIA under Bush was squeaky clean and would never engage in assassination or anything even potentially morally questionable. That is complete garbage too. Gitmo, secret prisons, waterboarding and Predator drones attacks are somehow forgotten in this narrative.
OK. Mr. Perry. You don't like Israel. We got it. But spinning a web of lies to make the point is a step over the line. I am surprised this kind of delusional hearsay was ever published.
11:41 PM ET
"Am I supposed to believe "
Grow a brain, Korzib.
It should be obvious that it was the CIA who approached Perry with this story, and not vice versa.
"Am I supposed to believe that Perry got access to secret CIA memos and spoke to two serving CIA agents about this?"
How about this instead: the CIA invited Perry to Langley, and when he arrived they took him into a conference room and laid out all the documents for him to read?
"If that is the case, the US has some major security issues to deal with in its intelligence services."
Noooo, all it would take is an instruction from Up On High that the Israelis have finally gone too far, so find a way to spike it. Feeding Perry this story would be just the way to deflate all that Israeli crowing about how "nobody can really be sure who's killing those scientists".
"But spinning a web of lies to make the point is a step over the line."
Agreed. But what if Perry is taking his instructions from the CIA?
9:53 PM ET
and so it is in this day and age of so-called journalism...
I would surmise the author intended to implicate the United States government of complicity with Israel. What is not clear is why this would be surprising or whether or not this matters - there is no secret of America's support of Israel, nor whether Western Media has a distinct bias. Lest we think that American Bureaucrats spend only their spare time playing mini golf games with their Israeli counterparts, no one should be surprised. What is at stake is clearly two distinct ideaologies, conception and judgement not withstanding, under whose rule do you wish to make your living?
9:39 PM ET
False Flag. Israelis ' Posing ' as Americans & CIA agents.
Israel has NO Morality.
AIPAC, American Zionists, World Zionists, The ' Israeli Govt. ' are ALL Zionist
AIPAC & American Zionists are NOT American Nationalists, They do not care,
whether Americans or American Interests get damaged. They encourage,
Israeli atrocities , crimes against Humanity and arrogance.
In a Classic case of ' Money Laundering ' , American Taxpayers, even in this ,
' Bad Economy ' have to Pay Israel , Billions of Dollars , as ' Grants ' . Israel
uses this money, through AIPAC, to ' Lobby ' & bribe, the US Congress / Senate,
to ' Support ' Israel, even though Israel's Criminal behavior, is a Crime against
Humanity and hurts the USA as a Nation and hurts the Citizens of the USA.
Israel is not a friend of the USA. It is a Liability.
To attain World Peace, the US Citizens and the US Govt., will have to STOP,
Why should US Citizens , suffer, for Israel's Crimes ????????????
11:06 PM ET
As if we are surprised...
The Israelis have been abusing this relationship ever since we became close allies--and we have been too curtailed to object about it.
The pattern will likely continue; the Israelis will keep committing stupid actions and eventually drag us into an unwanted war with Iran, a war we will have to fight for Israel with our blood, treasure, and reputation--and guess what? We dare not disobey our tiny little spoiled master!
11:56 AM ET
Israel is US's puppet-master.
Andrew, you are exactly right!
This is typical jew behavior. My dream is to end Israeli influence on the US within my lifetime. I have adjusted my diet and lifestyle accordingly.
2:01 AM ET
WOW!!! I mean, WOW!!! Israel has got some balls! I mean, this article is arguing that Israel is funding Pakistani terrorists against Iran. Moreover, they are doing so while pretending to be CIA agents. I don't care if you are an American and think that the Palestinians are blood-sucking terrorists, Israel is playing an extremely dangerous game that threatens us all.
This is not to say that Israel is not the only nation that does these things, its just that I believe that Americans have such a rosy picture of Israel being our compliant ally. This is has always been far from the truth, but I am always amazed by Israel's lack of loyalty to the United States, who has stood by so loyally, even when it has not served its own interests.
This is a breach of trust that the United States Government needs to address. If I was the president, I would quickly hash out a threatening arms deal that could possibly give Turkey a greater Naval strength in the Mediterranean. Moreover, I would about a couple days meeting the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, all the while dropping hints that some adjustments to the Camp David Accords could be changed. Israel needs to stop being the Rogue state. My diatribe is complete. But please read the article. It's mind-blowing.
2:55 AM ET
So a completely unsourced story
I guess we have to trust someone who was an adviser to Arafat, a proven liar and virulent anti-Israeli to be honest.
Forgive me if I am sceptical.
6:20 AM ET
Stp being an idiot Danny
>> So a completely unsourced story
No, it's abundantly sourced. Try reading it.
>> I guess we have to trust someone who was an adviser to Arafat, a proven liar and virulent anti-Israeli to be honest.
Prioven liar about what?
>> Forgive me if I am sceptical.
You're not sceptical. You're a Zionist propagandist.
4:46 AM ET
It's funny how the Hasbrats have suddenly become skeptics
When allegations are made agains Iran etc, the trolls have no problem coveting it at fce value. For example, there is zero evidenc Iran is producing nuclear weapons, but they are all convinced otherwise.
4:49 AM ET
So it's official - Israel is State sponsor of terrorism
As if we didn't already know.
5:01 AM ET
America and terrorsim
The author wants to give awareness to the American form terrorism, which is growing in very high level in Israel. Some American officers are involved in this work, which provide them information about America. American should protect their country by finding those types of peoples who are working against America.
By-Sell my car for cash
9:16 AM ET
Who would US have to blame without Israel?
Nothing new here. America has a long tradition of blaming Israel when its dirty linen goes public. Whenever the US gets into trouble in the press over an adventure (sometimes illegal) gone wrong a nameless and faceless administration figure can be counted on to come out of the shadows and accuse Israel of being the real culprit. This happened, for example, when Reagan administration gun-running, drug-running and money laundering know as Irangate hit the press in 1986. And remember when W’s victory speech aboard the San Francisco docked aircraft carrier turned into a very elusive victory? Again our popped, in this case, Bush neocons to blame Israel for getting the president to invade (actually Israel warned against, from the prime minister to the military to intelligence!). And the list goes on. So it is not surprising that an intelligence stooge no one outside the community has ever heard of would release a story about an incident that likely never occurred half a decade ago under Bush that resonates today in the public accusation of the Iranians that it was the United States that was behind the assassination of that Iranian scientist early in the week. The author’s accusation that, “they're supposed to be a strategic asset. Well, guess what? There are a lot of people now, important people, who just don't think that's true.”
Well spoken. In the tradition of generations unwilling and cowardly. If we cannot eve take responsibility for our actions, no wonder we are in retreat around the world.
12:49 PM ET
Oh, please with the US Liberty already.
How many men, women, and children have US forces killed around the world since that time?
I have no idea if it was intentional or not, but even in a worse case scenario (i.e. Israel knew it was a US spy ship and tried to sink it), that is a military engagement.
The US has killed and maimed untold numbers of Vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghans, Libyans, Central Americans, etc......
Spare us your whining about the Liberty.
9:49 PM ET
Spare us the US Liberty..
It's not the killing of the sailors in itself that causes Americans to return to the Israeli attack on the US Liberty, it's the fact that their own government denied them the respect of an honest accounting in public of the reality of the attack and showed more concern for the side of the soldiers who attacked them than to their own.
10:01 AM ET
CIA and UK intel involved
The IRNA state news agency said Saturday that Iran's Foreign Ministry has sent a diplomatic letter to the U.S. saying that it has "evidence and reliable information" that the CIA provided "guidance, support and planning" to assassins "directly involved" in Roshan's killing.
The U.S. has denied any role in the assassination.
Iran delivered the letter to the Swiss Embassy in Tehran, which looks after U.S. interests in the country. Iran and the U.S. have had no diplomatic relations since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.
IRNA also reported that Iran delivered a letter to Britain accusing London of having an "obvious role" in the killing. It said that a series of assassinations began after British intelligence chief John Sawers hinted in 2010 at intelligence operations against the Islamic Republic.
British media have quoted Sawers as saying that intelligence-led operations were needed to make it more difficult for countries like Iran to develop nuclear weapons
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/01/14/iran-holds-us-uk-accountable-for-assassination/#ixzz1jReJWTgS
10:15 AM ET
As a REAL American w/o dual citizship this is what is needed
Retired Generals,CIA agents, and politicians who are not concerned with making money and or not connected with media,the lobby, and industrial military complex, needs to make a press conference and OUT israel... There needs to be a stratigic full fledge wave and sustainable on-going media press release, of why the US needs to let Israel keep it's dirty diaper on. The US is always changing Israel dirty diaper. We need to do this in The UN when the Security Council comes up for a vote. France, Germany, Dutch,Asia, all know how the Israeli government LIES so much, yet w/o consequence. We must squelch their power by a barrage of on going media blitz. Most people forget things because of the speed of media cycle...Remember what Israel does when threaten in negative public opinion . they come on the news and say people are trying to deligitamize them and send out all there embassador out to counter public opinion. Thus the best way to render someone powerless is to ignore them....ISRAEL NEEDS TO BE IGNORED IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD!!!!!
author perry is supporter of terrorism
he was an aide to arafat.
nuff said...over and out.
10:23 AM ET
meanwhile, the muslim in chief is talking w/ taliban &MB
interesting.....what a sellout.
10:50 AM ET
War with Iran
Israel keeps making threats towards Iran and hinting that they are conducting the assassinations of Iranian scientists. Several senior US intelligence officers have stated that they know for a fact that Israeli Intelligence agents, often posing as CIA officers, are using Iranian dissident terrorist organizations to murder Iranians and blow up Iranian government facilities. Both the US and Israeli officials have hinted that the US and Israel are behind SUXNET and other IT terror projects. Many senior US and Israeli government officials have threatened to make conventional AND nuclear strikes on Iran. A US fleet continues to conduct aggressive, provocative maneuvers in the Persian Gulf right off of Iran’s coast. The US operates drones over Iran in what most would consider a series of warlike acts. The US and Israel brag about having intell “assets” on the ground in Iran. The US continues to make its top international priority the economic crippling of Iran, arm twisting nations all over the globe to support our efforts. And, some time ago, a US cruiser shot down an Iranian Commercial airliner, killing a huge number of Iranian civilians while the airliner was flying its routine, approved route over international waters. And now the US and our Israel puppet-master accuse IRAN of terrorism? Most of the world is asking “Just who is terrorizing whom?” In fact, the US is being rushed headlong into war with Iran by Israel and its US supporters just exactly as we were lead into the illegal, catastrophic, tragic war with Iraq and, for some reason, most Americans just don’t seem to be able to grasp that. WAKE UP AMERICA! Contact your congressman and say “No war with Iran!”
Iran wants a nuclear-backed
Iran wants a nuclear-backed monopoly over Mideast oil, probably tied together under a Caliphate of their own, if they can get it when they cannot even provide their people insurance . Does their friendship with oil-exporter Venezuela make more sense now? Otherwise, why not Cuba, the handmade jewelry of Russia? If Iran can defeat Israel, they can be popular enough in the Sunni oil-exporting states to make their plans work. And what's the purpose of regime change if not to stop the nuclear weapons program?
6:29 PM ET
If Iran wants a nuclear-backed monopoly over Mideast oil
Then why are they not producing nuclear weapons? Seems rather odd for them to strive for a nuclear-backed monopoly over Mideast oil without nukes don't you think?
12:11 PM ET
I may know now...
...what daD meant when he told me there were parts of the CIA that the CIA didn't even know about.
Not sure whether this is necessarily a bad thing. I'm not saying it's good but it might not be bad.
I also think not bad is better than pretty good. :-)
FOOTHILL WEB DESIGN
12:19 PM ET
Mark Perry, adviser to Yasser Arafat, PLO
Mr. Perry was adviser and "press secretary" to Yasser Arafat and the PLO, which the Jewish Virtual Library calls "one of the best known terrorist organizations in the world." I'd say this is a case of pot/kettle/black, except the Israelis aren't terrorists.
12:40 AM ET
Israelis aren't terrorists?
Israel was founded on terror by terorists.
Israel even elected 2 of those terrorist leaders to the office of Prime Minister.
Menachem Begin boasted that he introduced terrorism to the Middle East.
12:30 PM ET
CIA vs Mossad
"they were stunned by the brazenness of the Mossad's efforts"...
Well, it hardly takes much to stun the CIA.
Anyone who wants a thumbnail of the CIA's systemic incompetence should pick up a copy of the Pulitzer Prize winning Legacy of Ashes.
As for the rest of it, the US has supported not only terror groups but entire regimes in the Middle East, Central and South America, Asia, and anywhere else they found it advantageous to do so, so please spare me the moral outrage of the author, the CIA "sources", and the comments here.
As for military "aid", you can keep it.
We (Israel) are the fourth largest arms exporter in the world and could make more on sales to China alone then US "aid" provides ("aid" being a euphemism for the 2 billion dollar pork barrel for US defense contractors).
Up until 2008, I would have said the US is a good country that is sometimes run by some not-so-great leaders.
But now the US seems to have devolved into two camps: Barak Obama and Ron Paul. Yuck and Yuck.
Like a failed state, the US spends more and more of it's time ranting about Israel and the Jews.
12:38 AM ET
The Mossad are keytone cops
>> Anyone who wants a thumbnail of the CIA's systemic incompetence should pick up a copy of the Pulitzer Prize winning Legacy of Ashes.
Nothing quite lihe the thumbnails (lots of them) caught on camera in Dubai. What a joke these dumb asses were.
It just goes to show that the image of ruthless, slick and efficient operative is a myth.
>> As for the rest of it, the US has supported not only terror groups but entire regimes in the Middle East, Central and South America, Asia, and anywhere else they found it advantageous to do so, so please spare me the moral outrage of the author, the CIA "sources", and the comments here.
Agreed. The CIA has indeed supported error groups and tyrants in the ME, usualyl fofr the benefit of Israel. Which explains why Israelis and CIA spies have been rounded up in Iran and Lebanon.
>> As for military "aid", you can keep it.
And watch your false economy implode?
>> We (Israel) are the fourth largest arms exporter in the world and could make more on sales to China alone then US "aid" provides ("aid" being a euphemism for the 2 billion dollar pork barrel for US defense contractors).
How do you plan on making any money with no US wepoans technlogy to reverse ingineer and sell to the Chinese?
>> But now the US seems to have devolved into two camps: Barak Obama and Ron Paul. Yuck and Yuck.
And Israel is have devolved into two camps: Netenyahu/Liberman and Shas. Tripple Yuck.
>> Like a failed state, the US spends more and more of it's time ranting about Israel and the Jews.
So does Israel.
THE MIGHTY CYNIC
1:01 PM ET
1:04 PM ET
Israel has a track record of ignoring other nations' sovereignty
On 15 July 2004, New Zealand imposed diplomatic sanctions against Israel and suspended high-level contacts between the two countries in July 2004 after two Israeli citizens, Uriel Zosha Kelman and Eli Cara, were convicted of passport fraud in Auckland. The New Zealand government said there was strong evidence that the two men were Mossad agents and Prime Minister Helen Clark said:
"The New Zealand government views the act carried out by the Israeli intelligence agents as not only utterly unacceptable but also a breach of New Zealand sovereignty and international law."
1:05 PM ET
Where is the surprise
1) Spies were posing as someone else....so what?
2) Some CIA officers knew this was happening, Mossad did not try to hide it. This makes the CIA complicit.
3) Israel has had assassination teams for a long time, and the western world has been fine with them. They do pretend outrage once in a while.
4) Israel wants a war with Iran and is trying to provoke a response. No surprise there.
5) Israel may not be acting in US interest, but it is acting in its own. That is how nations behave.
I do not see the big deal here.
7:19 PM ET
"I do not see the big deal here."
That's because you can't see this from the USA's point of view.
Israeli spies pretending to be from the CUA are orchestrating an assassination campaign within Iran.
That is A Big Deal as far as the CIA is concerned, precisely because if the Iranians do believe that America is responsible then they may indeed attempt to retaliate... against Americans.
Because - du'oh! - the Iranians will have been tricked by Mossad into believing that America is responsible for those assassinations, when the USA is actually innocent of that charge.
And you can't see what's wrong with that?
I cannot blame Israeli's here
CIA and even the president knew this was happening.
They did not do anything.
How is it not being complicit with Israel?
Let me elaborate,
For example, I fake as a cop, cop knows I am faking as him, the whole police department and even the mayor knows it.
I keep on doing this for fours years, no one stops me. I do many bad things as a fake cop, not a murmur from the police dept. I finally do something that they do not fully like and suddenly, all the blame is on me. Really?
When you are in a cesspit you cannot selectively take the stains.
They were all complicit for almost four years. NOT A MURMUR.
It seems mossad agents were doing their duty to their country, but the question is which country was Bush serving.
I still do not see how you can blame another country's spies, when even the President of US was in full knowledge of this 2-3 years ago. He knew it and he did nothing, implying he wanted it to continue. Where is the puzzle here? All that question of rocking the boat is without merit. Being loyal to one's own country is not called rocking the boat. Expecting the spies of another country to have your country's interests as their top most priority is foolishness.
2:44 PM ET
You don't see the big deal here?! How about the U.S. implementing its own foreign policy and if Israel or someone else tries to subvert it, let the U.S. publicize it and stop supporting them financially and politically. Are Senators Graham and Lieberman U.S. citizens or Israelis? We have become a province of Israel and it's about time that the rest of us in the U.S. came to grips with it.
3:27 PM ET
This article is the product of someone who was one of Yasser Arafat's advisors. I think that the hysteria that it engenders against Israel and Jews is like something out of The Prague Cemetery. There is no substantiation to any of these charges. It is like accusing people of poisoning the wells during the plague or using the blood of Christian babies to make matzah. We have killed a lot of our own troops in war.
BTW the Liberty was not in position to learn anything about Israeli tanks moving toward Syria. The US knew that was happening as the tanks were rolling past the US embassy in that direction. The ship was really off the coast of Egypt and had no hebrew speaking personel on board. You might read Cristol's book The Liberty Incident. There are a lot of things that are not understood but it is clear that there was no premeditation. You might remember that the Liberty was one of 3 of the four spy ships that were captured or destroyed in separate incidents.
3:35 PM ET
More Yada Yada Yada
Seems like everyone wants to get on the actions of "covert" type discussion, and always has something to offer that sounds close to a movie.
Whether or not this is a possibility is not really the idea here. How many others have talked to so called intelligence people? Anytime I read this or that, you know, the frenzy of any type of media wanting to receive the influence of a popular idea or notion, I get a little more critical.
First, Israel/US are not the only ones that sees a problem w/Iran coming up with nuclear weapons. Many in ME have a problem with that is well. Why? Because Iran doesn't seem to have a sturdy rule on when or when not, or even if to use them by watching their own policies of their own people. In the ME, this also means a change in Power of the region as well. One that many leaders, whether they consider themselves dictators or monarchies or not, would not like that. With Israel, if they actually have enough to do real damage, at least there is some control there - and unfortunately - the US has had to put up with Israel's brazen misdeeds and troubled policies that they love to stick up everyone's rear end. So much so that even if they had no real hand in something, they don't mind being accused of it. They probably do know who has a hand in this, even if they did not. (although I will not cast doubt they did not at this point).
The UN nuclear agency would not have to tell anyone who talked to them. If Iran suspected one of their own said too much, then that would be a problem for Iran, wouldn't it - it we know Iran leaders would not have a problem blaming the usual people.
Then there are other groups on the ground in Iran, and not just Jundallah either. Has Perry been wrong before? Probably. Since everyone and their Uncle as a theory based on some sort of "expert", I am suspect of pretty much anyone saying they "have the scoop". Sorry Mr. Perry - I am not saying you do not have a good idea or source, but everyone says so.
10:59 PM ET
The real problem is Israel's 200 nukes
Iran needs that first nuke in order to prevent our invading it like we did Iraq. The real threat in the ME is Israel not Iran.
12:32 AM ET
Yes, lots fo Yada Yada Yada from the like of CYBERSTORM
And lots fo maybes, probablys, could, etc.
No argument fo any sustance. I suspect he hasn't ven bothered to read the article. He went straight to the comments sections and winged it.
Waiting for Jeffrey Goldberg's Reply
I'm curious to see what the Israeli fascist scumbag Jeffrey Goldberg at the Atlantic has to say about this story. Doubtless he will go to all lengths possible defending Israel's position, and then conclude by calling everybody (especially Stephen Walt) an anti-Semite for not blindly praising Israel.
END US SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL
4:52 PM ET
Article is based on assumptions by a former PA advisor
This article goes into detail about alleged past contacts between the Mossad and the Jundallah terrorist group and their assumed connection to past assassinations of Iranians. However, regarding the latest assassination, one has to point out that so far no suspects have been caught. It is not clear if Jundallah members were involved at all, and if so, well, they have committed acts of terror in Iran before, on their own, as we find also in this article. And even provided that a) they were involved and b) not working on their own, but for someone else, that still doesn't prove it was the Mossad. The article is based on assumptions alone. Which makes one wonder what the goal of this article is. Maybe to deliberately sow tension between the US and Israel? The author, Mark Perry, has published a book about the need to engage in talks with terror groups and has himself served as an unofficial advisor to the late PLO chairman Yasser Arafat from 1989 to 2004 (according to Wikipedia). That suggests he might not be too enamored of Israel. Is it possible that he has an interest in lowering support for Israel in the US?
7:25 PM ET
"The author, Mark Perry, has published a book about the need to engage in talks with terror groups" .... " Is it possible that he has an interest in lowering support for Israel in the US?"
Which is rather less likely, I'd suggest, than this theory:
The author, Mark Perry, has published a book about the CIA .... Is it possible that he has an interest in assisting the CIA in exposing an Israeli operation that is detrimental to US National Security?
Or did you miss that book title while trawling through wiki?
12:19 AM ET
What makes you say they are assumptions GARGOYLE?
The author says he read documents shown to him by the CIA.
This article goes into detail about alleged past contacts between the Mossad and the Jundallah terrorist group and their assumed connection to past assassinations of Iranians.
>> However, regarding the latest assassination, one has to point out that so far no suspects have been caught.
Nor have previous suspects for the prior 3 murders, though Iran has caught a spy ring recently.
>> It is not clear if Jundallah members were involved at all, and if so, well, they have committed acts of terror in Iran before, on their own, as we find also in this article.
This articel doesn't say they did it on their own.
>> The article is based on assumptions alone.
No it's not. It's based on evidence shown to Perry and testimony of CIA officers.
>> Which makes one wonder what the goal of this article is.
Only if you assume it to be false, which would be a stretch given that Israel has boasted about it's plans to conduct such plans against Iran. Netenyahu has applauded such äccidents" and says more are needed.
5:25 PM ET
Why is this intelligence officer surprised?
"It's amazing what the Israelis thought they could get away with," the intelligence officer said. "Their recruitment activities were nearly in the open. They apparently didn't give a damn what we thought."
Why should they care? They didn't just think they could get away with it, Mr. Intelligence Orificer, they DID get away with it.
It was known, written down and nothing was done about it.
50% of your fellow 'intelligence officers' are probably Mossad double agents, pal!
8:42 PM ET
I wonder how much longer the Americans will tolerate such a flagrant abuse on the part of the Israelis. At the very least funding should be stopped for these arrogant terrorist state called Israel.
6:53 PM ET
Hatred of Isreal
It seems that most comments are by libs who hate Israel. That goes for any country that chooses to defend itself. To a lib appeasement is policy of national defense. Just a bit of history for the libs here:
December 20, 2011: Palestinians are enraged because an American politician recently pointed out that "Palestine" does not exist, never existed, and was invented during the Cold War by the Soviet KGB as yet another ploy to expand Russian influence in the Middle East. The 1964 charter founding the Palestine Liberation Organization was created by the KGB and "approved" by 400 pro-communist Palestinians. This charter explicitly denied any Palestinian claims on the West Bank (then part of Jordan) and Gaza (then part of Egypt). After Israel conquered these two areas, in the 1967 war, the PLO dropped that clause. But there was no real effort to push the concept of "Palestine" until the 1970s. The Arab world, humiliated from losing five wars with Israel, and seeing Israel outstrip its Arab neighbors in so many ways (economically, educationally, politically, and so on), got behind the idea that the Jews and Israel were oppressing the newly invented "Palestinian people" and must be destroyed. Most Western media ignored the ensuing decades of ugly anti-Israel propaganda. This myth of the "Palestinian State" became popular with pro-communist groups and leftists in general, and that enthusiasm survived the collapse of most communist states in the late 1980s and the end of the Cold War. But just because a lie is widely accepted does not make it true. So Palestinians are outraged at this exposure of their origins.
8:44 PM ET
The point is that Israel is guilty
Are you saying that the article is a fabrication? Or are you conceding that Israel is indeed a terrorism, exporting state?
12:14 AM ET
>> It seems that most comments are by libs who hate Israel. That goes for any country that chooses to defend itself.
No, because apart from the US, only Israel claims that it is defending itself while stealing land.
To describe what Israel does as national defense is fundamentally false.
Israel has been demanding that it be recognized for decades, but Newt Gingrich was more than happy to accept $5 million in bribes (towqards his elections campaign) in order to repeat the lie that Palestine" does not exist.
The claim of course, is based on the fradulent publication by Joan Peters, Ïn Time Immemorial" which has been debunked and exposed as such.
Palestine has existed for thousands of yeas. The Soviet KGB could nto possibly have invented it seeing as there are maps of Palestine dating back to the 11th century BC
>> The 1964 charter founding the Palestine Liberation Organization was created by the KGB and "approved" by 400 pro-communist Palestinians.
Absolute rubbish. The PLO was established in Jordan and created largelty by the Arab League.
>> This charter explicitly denied any Palestinian claims on the West Bank (then part of Jordan) and Gaza (then part of Egypt).
False again. The charter (issued on 28 May 1964) stated that "Palestine with its boundaries that existed at the time of the British mandate. This includes the West Bank and Gaza.
>> After Israel conquered these two areas, in the 1967 war, the PLO dropped that clause.
False again. In 1974 the PLO called for an independent state in the territory of Mandate Palestine
>> But there was no real effort to push the concept of "Palestine" until the 1970s.
False. In 1915, 2 years before the Balfour Declaration, the Hussein-McMahon declaration promised to create an independent Arab State, which was to include all of Palestine.
>> The Arab world, humiliated from losing five wars with Israel, and seeing Israel outstrip its Arab neighbors in so many ways (economically, educationally, politically, and so on), got behind the idea that the Jews and Israel were oppressing the newly invented "Palestinian people" and must be destroyed.
No, the Arab world was sicked by the expulsion fo 800,000 Palestinians by Israel.
>> Most Western media ignored the ensuing decades of ugly anti-Israel propaganda.
Probabyl becasue they have been so blinded by the decades of ugly pro-Israel propaganda.
>> This myth of the "Palestinian State" became popular with pro-communist groups and leftists in general, and that enthusiasm survived the collapse of most communist states in the late 1980s and the end of the Cold War.
If any side was founded on myth, it was Israel, state actually founded on myth. While you Zionists like to refer to “historical connection”, this was concocted to downplay the fact that the Zionists lack any legal standing to assert a claim to the territory of Palestine during the Post-WWI peace conferences at Versailles and San Remo.
The Principle Allied Powers decided there were no bases for a legal entitlement, so Lord Balfour suggested that some polite words about the “historical connection” of the Jewish people be added to the Mandate instead. The travaux préparatoires of the British Foreign Office Committee that was tasked with drafting the Mandate reveal that the Allies did not consider the historical connection as a basis for any Jewish claim:
“It was agreed that they had no claim, whatever might be done for them on sentimental grounds; further that all that was necessary was to make room for Zionists in Palestine, not that they should turn “it”, that is the whole country, into their home.
– See PRO FO 371/5245, cited in Doreen Ingrams, Palestine Papers 1917-1922: Seeds of Conflict, George Brazziler, 1972, pages 99-100
In fact, while Zionists like to refer to “Judea and Samaria”, the fact is that Zionist don’t realize that the terms “Judea and Samaria”, which you cited from the text of UN General Assembly resolution 181(II), were actually used to exclude those regions from the State of Israel (Medinat Yisrael), i.e.:
The boundary of the hill country of Samaria and Judea starts on the Jordan River at the Wadi Malih south-east of Beisan and runs due west to meet the Beisan-Jericho road and then follows the western side of that road in a north-westerly direction to the junction of the boundaries of the Sub-Districts of Beisan, Nablus, and Jenin.
The General Assembly resolution not only excluded the bulk of Judea and Samaria from the Jewish state, it prohibited the inhabitants of the Jewish state from obtaining citizenship and moving there.
1:26 AM ET
neoleft is my HERO
NeoLeft is The DeBunking King....You own these Zionist...
12:43 PM ET
Thank you for telling the truth
More people need to have your courage and factual knowledge. Thank you for defending the Palestinian people.
I'll say it Freedom
I don't think the author is telling the truth here.
Too many 'undisclosed' sources. Too many 'outraged' operatives, current, former, whatnot. Too many exasperated political leaders.
As an opinion piece this reads as a polemic. As a piece of fact based journalism, this reads as a bunch of unsubstantiated fluff.
Perry's claims, combined with his background, make this a suspect article. Arafat confidant and Palestinian advocate finds amazing thing to bad mouth Israel without any factual support.
Yeah, I give it a healthy dose of questioning.
4:44 PM ET
"As an opinion piece this reads as a polemic."
Mark Perry is telling you that he has been briefed on this matter by two senior CIA officials.
Are you saying he's LYING?
Mark Perry is telling you that he was pointed to ex-CIA officials who comfirmed what he was told by those two senior CIA officials.
Are you saying that Mark Perry is lying about that too?
Mark Perry is telling you that he is aware of the contents of CIA memos from field officers reporting that Mossad agents were posing as CIA officers in order to recruit Iranian terrorists.
Are you saying he made all that up?
Honestly, Jacob, you can read all that and *still* conclude that Mark Perry is nothing but a polemicist?
You don't believe this story because you don't WANT to believe it.
Israel doing stupid and dangerous things is not newsworthy if you ask me.
My taxes support Israeli terrorism
As a tax payer I find this very disturbing. Our taxes go to Israel so that they can in turn use those dollars to hire terrorists. The worst is that they don't care about implicating America. That is of course, if we really are not involved. You can never really tell with these spook services.
9:16 PM ET
Rule # 1: Israel is Always Right
I love how there are grown men out there - American officials - who evince surprise and consternation at Israeli behavior! Listen people, the number one rule in Washington is that the Israeli agenda comes first. If they piss you off - like they did Bush and the American intelligence community in this case - learn to get over it. Israel impunity is a Washington truism.
11:00 PM ET
Only until the Americans grow some balls
This will change. Israel will not commit crimes without impunity forever.
2:42 AM ET
if they can get away 9/11 they can get away with anything.
2:39 AM ET
israel did 9/11 ?
2:45 AM ET
can the american jewish community please be more loyal?
We dont want a war with Iran. We didnt want it with Iraq.
Stop pushing us into a war which we dont want and which does not benefit America.
And stop defending Israel when it is harming our own (America's ) image and interests.
6:35 AM ET
Odd, isn't it?
Odd how hasbah hacks(tm) can blythly dismiss this article by arguing that *because* Mark Perry hasn't shown us photocopies of the CIA memos that he read *then* we can instantly dismiss them as utterly fraudulent.
Odd indeed, because I am quite certain that nobody in these talkback threads has ever set eyes on the (CIA and Mossad-supplied) documents that the IAEA uses as the basis for its "concerns" regarding the "possible military applications" of Iran's nuclear program.
The only difference that I can see between the former and the latter is this:
1) the former is an inconveniece, and so must be dismissed out-of-hand
2) the latter is oh-so-convenient, and so must be accepted as a self-evident-truth.
6:47 AM ET
Right on the money JohnBoy
Even more odd when Leon Panetta comes out and says Iran is not making nukes, the last 2 NIE's say Iran is not making nukes and the IAEA says hey have no evidence Iran is making nukes, but all of the Hasbrats take it for granted that Iran is making nukes because Netenyahu and Joe Liberman says Iran is making nukes.
1:46 PM ET
Well it isn't difficult to dismiss a liar out of hand
Concerning a previous report by Mr. Perry
"While Petraeus's written testimony to the Senate Armed Service Committee does leave room for interpretation, the claim that he holds alleged Israeli intransigence in the peace process responsible for putting American lives at risk is not supported by anything the general has said or written.
This episode provides an example of how some in the media promote controversy and sensationalize a story through selective interpretation of testimony and then attempt to substantiate their story by giving credibility to a dubious source."
3:49 PM ET
CAMERA as a source of objective truth....
Honestly, SPOOD, are you going to insult my intelligence by thinking that I don't know what CAMERA is, and that I am unaware of who runs it, and why?
Camera gets it wrong as usual
>> the claim that he holds alleged Israeli intransigence in the peace process responsible for putting American lives at risk is not supported by anything the general has said or written.
it wasn't Patreaus who made that claim, it was a report to the Joint Chiefs to Staff.
Trust Camera not even to get is basic facts right.
8:10 AM ET
Provide the Memos.
This came out yesterday…
My biggest problem with this is that it's based on memos that we don't have, and don't know where to get them.
Remember that Dennis Kucinich included this in one of his articles of impeachment against Bush.
If you want to really learn about this... here's my original article about it in 2009. Keeping in mind, that I followed this from the ABCNews report... from the day it was reported. I even spent money on this...
Here's what I wrote about Newsweek's debunking…
On 3/1/2010, nearly three years after the initial report, Newsweek attempts to “debunk” the claims about Jundullah. However, even though they say “the United States has never had a relationship with Jundullah” in the following paragraph they admit that “there appears to be at least some brief history between the U.S. and Jundullah.” Also, they neglect to mention that Abdolhamid Rigi, Abdolmalek’s brother, made the same claims July 2009 “in a court session held in the southeastern city of Zahedan.”
Here's a transcript from the 4/3/2007 show of Nightline. I had to shell out $14.95 for it.
Here's a story from Iran...
It was ABCNews that was the first to mention Jundallah, but Sy Hersh wrote this story the previous month...
"A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda."
"Some of the core tactics of the redirection are not public, however. The clandestine operations have been kept secret, in some cases, by leaving the execution or the funding to the Saudis, or by finding other ways to work around the normal congressional appropriations process, current and former officials close to the Administration said."
"The key players behind the redirection are Vice-President Dick Cheney, the deputy national-security adviser Elliott Abrams, the departing Ambassador to Iraq (and nominee for United Nations Ambassador), Zalmay Khalilzad, and Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi national-security adviser. While Rice has been deeply involved in shaping the public policy, former and current officials said that the clandestine side has been guided by Cheney. (Cheney’s office and the White House declined to comment for this story; the Pentagon did not respond to specific queries but said, “The United States is not planning to go to war with Iran.”)"
So ABCNews, and Sy Hersh are two sources for the same story.
He does mention Jundullah in this one…
"One of the most active and violent anti-regime groups in Iran today is the Jundallah, also known as the Iranian People’s Resistance Movement, which describes itself as a resistance force fighting for the rights of Sunnis in Iran. “This is a vicious Salafi organization whose followers attended the same madrassas as the Taliban and Pakistani extremists,” Nasr told me. “They are suspected of having links to Al Qaeda and they are also thought to be tied to the drug culture.” The Jundallah took responsibility for the bombing of a busload of Revolutionary Guard soldiers in February, 2007. At least eleven Guard members were killed. According to Baer and to press reports, the Jundallah is among the groups in Iran that are benefitting from U.S. support."
Some interesting reading…
Two quotes from Jeremy Hammond…
"I find this report odd, and it doesn't add up. The earlier reports referred to included Sy Hersh, Richard Sale, the Telegraph, ABC News, etc. It seemed fairly well established at the time. So what are we to make of this? These reports were wrong? But the sources weren't Iranian officials who had been fooled by a false flag op! This FP report argues that those earlier reports are explained by this false flag Mossad operation, but that does NOT explain why American officials told reporters that under Bush the US was supporting Jundallah as a proxy. Did Mossad's false flag op also fool some in the US intelligence community that the CIA was up to dirty tricks?!" - Jeremy Hammond
"A Mossad false flag op could certainly explain why members of Jundallah themselves believed the CIA was backing them. It could also explain why Pakistani officials believed the CIA was doing so. I'm having a harder time believing that such a false flag op could fool cuurent and former members of the US's own intelligence community. Most were anonymous, but take Robert Baer. Was he also getting his info from Pakistani sources when he told Sy Hersh that the US was backing Jundallah as a proxy? Or was he not rather drawing on his own sources within the US intelligence community that he was surely still well connected with? If the latter, were they in turn gathering their info from Pakistani sources who'd been fooled by Mossad's false flag op? So Mossad posing as CIA actually convinced CIA that CIA was backing Jundallah? I'm sure Mark Perry is no slouch, but neither is Robert Baer, or Sy Hersh. I'm not entirely convinced. There's an element of this story that doesn't add up, and a dot or two missing that need connecting." - Jeremy Hammond
To me, I'm betting that the CIA, GID, Mossad and ISI (and maybe a sprinkling of MI6) were all in on supporting radical elements in the Middle East for geopolitical purposes. Like they've always done.
One possibility is that U.S. Officials and American intelligence sources lied when they told ABCNews that Jundullah was being supported by the U.S. If they lied, then maybe these U.S. Officials and American intelligence sources told them it was the CIA in an effort to cover-up for Mossad, even though Bush was supposedly pissed. Now, the CIA is trying to pin the blame on the "right culprit?" I see that as one possibility considering there are pro-Israel elements in our Government. But only if we are to discount the reports by Sy Hersh, ABCNews, the Telegraph, UPI, etc... in favor of this new story. That's one of the reasons the memos are important. I'm betting they were all doing it, and are now trying to cover their asses by pinning the blame on others at a time when things like Israel killing nuclear scientists is a seemingly acceptable thing in Washington D.C.
Another possibility is that those U.S. Officials and American intelligence sources believed it was the CIA, when in fact, it was the Mossad. As Jeremy asked, "Mossad posing as CIA actually convinced CIA that CIA was backing Jundallah?" I don't buy it.
This story DOES point back to Cheney. Depending on which path you take. Something to be considered. I've heard Cheney had "stay behinds" in D.C. Wasn't it Sy Hersh to report on that? I'm not willing to drop Cheney from this equation. Especially not without the memos.
Today, Israel emphatically denied it. Something they supposedly don't do very often.
One thing is true, Mark Perry's story certainly brings attention to an issue that deserves it.
wikileaks might have them
1:43 PM ET
Wikileaks is a helluva lot more credible..
..than supposition and a blogger echo chamber.
But of course we are left with the single reason why Mr. Perry's article can't be taken seriously.
"it's based on memos that we don't have, and don't know where to get them."
What is to keep this from being total bullshit? Nothing except a belief that you agree with the author implicitly.
I swear someone can write an article about the Likud being baby-eating space lizards and you guys will all nod with agreement.
2:13 PM ET
Israel has had a history of terrorism
Israel began as a fruit of warfare and terrorism. This article does not tell us anything new about Israel, hence it is believable.
3:59 PM ET
"it's based on memos that we don't have,"
A quick question for you, SPOOD:
Q: Have you ever set eyes on that "laptop of death" which is the sole source of information regarding the "possible military dimensions" of Iran's nuclear programme?
"What is to keep this from being total bullshit?"
Have you ever held that laptop in your hot little hand, SPOOD?
If not (and we both know that the answer is "no") then what's to stop that laptop being completely fraudulent?
"Nothing except a belief that you agree with the author implicitly"
I could repeat myself, but you already get my drift, right?
You really are a shameless Hasbarah Hypocrite.
4:59 AM ET
Obviously you;re taking it seriosly Spood
Which explains all your posts here trying to put teh fired out.
11:40 AM ET
Which is why Johnboy
Iran's nuclear weapons program remains alleged.
I'm assuming that the US government has an idea of what's going on.
I'm assuming that the IAEA has an idea of what's going on, which is why it continues to ask Iran's government for answers to the questions that remain outstanding.
I'm assuming that knowing the risks of a confrontation, that the US government would not attempt to start a war based on a lack of information.
Unlike the Bush administration, the Obama administration appears not to have an ideological penchent for war.
4:38 PM ET
And what does *any* of that have to do....
..... with Jacob's ludicrous posts regarding how unlikely Mark Perry's claims are?
Jacob Blues: Oh, look! Look! Over THERE!
Jacob Blues: Don't look at my last few posts. Look over THEEEERRRRREEEEE!
10:08 PM ET
Your assumptions are wogn Jacob
>> Iran's nuclear weapons program remains alleged.
Why does it remain alleged if there is no evidence it exists? Clearly this means it's political only.
>> I'm assuming that the US government has an idea of what's going on.
What do you mean by the US government? Most of members fo Congress don't have a clue. All 16 US intel agencies says there is no evidence, but Obama and the State Department keep insisting otherwise.
>> I'm assuming that the IAEA has an idea of what's going on which is why it continues to ask Iran's government for answers to the questions that remain outstanding.
You're wrong. Yes they know what's going on, but the secretary of the IAEA, Yuki Amano (who the US lobbied heavily to put in place) has vowed that he is on teh smae page as the US. That means he's putting politics ahead fo science.
Most of these outstanding issues were addressed by Iran years ago and the IAEA considerd those matters closed until AMano came along and re-opened them.
>> Unlike the Bush administration, the Obama administration appears not to have an ideological penchent for war.
Yeah right. Tell that to Somalia, Uganda, Afghanistan, Yemen and Lybia.
1:50 PM ET
Israel is playing with fire, involving us in their covert war...
"...false-flag operations are hardly new, they're extremely dangerous. You're basically using your friendship with an ally for your own purposes. Israel is playing with fire. It gets us involved in their covert war, whether we want to be involved or not."
mmmm...and where did Israel get the notion the US might have an interest in such operations?
Let's see might it have been President Reagan asking Israel to act as middleman in the sale of weapons to Iran?
Let's see might it have been President Reagan asking Israel to act as middleman providing weapons and training to the Contras?
Reagan's economic Laffer Curve chickens have brought down our economy as they came home to roost.
Reagan's foreign policy Iran/Contra chickens are now disrupting our foreign policy and exposing our men and women in and out of uniform across the globe to even greater risk than they would otherwise face.
2:15 PM ET
It was not just Reagan
It is our system of unending warfare and corporate welfare that helps this type of process perpetuate.
3:50 PM ET
channeling Ike—It's the military-industrial complex stupid!
no it wasn't just Reagan but in the context of Iran and Israel it was absolutely Reagan and his band of merry pranksters.
Corporations have no national identity, no quaint notions of patriotism or respect for a nation's Constitution, Bill of Rights or rule of law.
Cite your sources.
I don't see any valid sources to back up the writer's claims. Unnamed "intelligence officials?" That's not a valid source. This article should be pulled if the Journalist can't really prove anything.
4:58 PM ET
>> I don't see any valid sources to back up the writer's claims.
Do you have security clearance?
>> Unnamed "intelligence officials?" That's not a valid source.
It is when it suits you.
>> This article should be pulled if the Journalist can't really prove anything.
In that case, so should every articel ever written suggestign Iran has nukes.
6:08 PM ET
Tell that to the CIA, silly
You are so silly. Don't you believe what the CIA is telling you?
6:47 PM ET
I still do not see how you can blame another country's spies, when even the President of US was in full knowledge of this 2-3 years ago. He knew it and he did nothing, implying he wanted it to continue. Where is the puzzle here?
All that talk of President not doing anything because of fear of rocking the boat is without merit. Being loyal to one's own country is not called rocking the boat. Expecting the spies of another country to have your country's interests as their top most priority is foolishness.
Are you defending Israel?
The whole point is that Israel exports terrorism. Whether they caught on or knew or did knot know is like asking "who know about 911?". Of course some people know about it, and now we know about it too. What is your point?
1:39 AM ET
"CIA and even the president knew this was happening."
"How is it not being complicit with Israel?"
CIA: Stop this nonsense!
Mossad: I can't hearrrrrr you....
CIA: Listen to me!
Mossad: Did someone just say something?
CIA: I know you can hear me, and I'm telling you to stop!
Mossad: Did someone just say something?
CIA: You will be sorry...
Mossad: There is this annoying buzzing in my ears.....
Perry: WHAMMER-YAMMER! KERPOWEEEEEE!
Latino54: Owwwwwww, that wasn't very fair, was it?
Latino, your argument would have some traction if Mossad consisted of little children who needed constant supervision by their guardians.
But Mossad is *supposed* to be run by grown-ups, and so if they are up to any shenannigans then the responsibility for their actions rest with them, and with nobody else.
The buck stopped on Dagan's desk, nowhere else.
"They did not do anything."
Ahem. I think they just did.
Didn't you notice?
2:47 AM ET
They did something after four years...hmmm
must not be so important then. I wonder why they are crying now.
For four years they seemed just fine with it.
And Bush is still not saying anything about it. So I assume he does not think it is really a big deal, after-all.
My point is that it is hypocrisy to put the blame on a foreign country's (secret) agents when your own officials kept silent about it for four years.
4:35 PM ET
"must not be so important then."
"must not be so important then. I wonder why they are crying now.
For four years they seemed just fine with it."
No, for four years they have been hopping mad about it, but were unwilling to publically ubraid Israel over it. You know, seeing as how Israel is *supposed* to be their ally.
But now these assassinations are being deliberately timed to destroy American efforts at a diplomatic solution i.e. they are being carried out to deliberately leave the USA with no other option but to enter into a war that the Americans do not want.
Time to cut the bulls**t about what a wonderful "assset" Israel is, so let's call Mark Perry in for a little chat.
5:13 AM ET
Corroborating story that Mossad did it - Perry vindicated
" Like three previous Iranian scientists ambushed on their morning commute, the latest nuclear expert to die on his way to work was a victim of Israel's Mossad, Western intelligence sources tell TIME. Mostafa Ahmadi-Roshan, an expert on a phase of uranium enrichment, perished on a Tehran street on Wednesday after an assassin in a passing motorcycle attached a magnetized explosive to the side of his Peugeot 405. "Yeah, one more," a senior Israeli official said with a smile. "I don't feel sad for him."
Wednesday's attack followed the pattern of previous operations planned by Mossad and carried out over the past two years by Iranians trained and paid by Israel's spy agency, according to intelligence source."
4:51 PM ET
Well, yeah, it's obvious....
It's obvious that Mark Perry didn't break this story on his own: the CIA had a story to tell, and chose him to tell it.
And if that's the case (anyone wanna' bet otherwise?) then it's just as obvious that the CIA wouldn't leave it at that i.e. they'd leak the confirmation to other outlets like, well, Time.
That's what SPOOD was such an idiot to argue that we can dismiss this story so quickly, because the CIA was always going to be ready for *that* argument.
11:43 AM ET
Whoever did it, it was brilliant!
if the US wont impose real sanctions, you know, unlike the ones obama enacted with all kinds of sneaky backdoors and cutouts, and russia and china wont impose real sanctions, and the iranians wont stop their nuclear program, then what alternatives are there? In defense of obama, he really thought talking could bring the iranians around...and while obama talks beautifully, his words mean NOTHING to the iranians...obama offered his hand outstretched, and the iranians have been hacking it off finger by finger over 3 yrs...
wasn't obama's new wonderful multilateralism supposed to win over russia dnchina to help with global affairs? russia wants to actually reduce sanctions and meanwhile, is sending arms to assad in syria hoping to support syria so that iran indirectly benefits. the truth is, if no one stops iran and if iran wont stop itself, then, unfortunately, more assassinations and viruses etc.will be unleashed on the iranians...say what you want- diplomacy has been tried and is hopeless. in war, when all else fails, you fight to the death. make no mistake, this is a glbal issue, not an israeli issue exclusively. Just like WW2 was a global issue, not just a polish issue or a russian issue...all you fleabags feigning outrage at the death of this and other nuke scientists are a joke. whoever killed him, along with the other scientists, or scumdog mabhouh should be praised, not scorned.
this is obama's 3 AM call and so far, he's cowering under the bed.....if iran goes nuclear, it will be obama's sad legacy....he PROMISED the american electorate that iran would never be allowed nukes. is he going back on that promise now? what will the used car salesman do ??? time is short...we'll soon see.
11:58 AM ET
The real problem is Israeli Terrorism
The problem is not Iran but the terrorism that Israel exports. There is no way to dress up that ugly pig. As long as Israel has existed there has been war in the ME. It is time to cut off all aid to that terrorist state.
10:01 PM ET
What's wrong with Iran's nuclear program?
Iran are signatories to the NPT and open to IAEA inspections.
Leon Palestta said last week that Iran is not making nukes.
>> In defense of obama, he really thought talking could bring the iranians around...
No, in defense of Obama, , he really thought he'd be allowed to negotiate with Iran, but he was undermined and sabotaged by the lobby.
>> and while obama talks beautifully, his words mean NOTHING to the iranians...
Agreed and who can blame him? While he was speakign nicely to them, his corp of diplomats was workign behind the scenes to udnermine his overturre and sabotage the negotiations.
Obama offered his hand outstretched, with the otehr hand behind his back and fingers crossed.
>> wasn't obama's new wonderful multilateralism supposed to win over russia dnchina to help with global affairs?
it was, but that was never going to happen with the US insisting on placing missile bases on Russia's front door aimed at Moscow.
>> russia wants to actually reduce sanctions and meanwhile, is sending arms to assad in syria hoping to support syria so that iran indirectly benefits
The US did exactly the same thing in Bahrain, because they have a naval base there. Russi has said any attack on Iran would be a threat to it's security
>> no mistake, this is a glbal issue, not an israeli issue exclusively.
False. It is a reagional issue. There would be no issue if Iran didn't have oil, just like Lybia.
Everyone knows Iran is not making nukes, but the Bibbi is worried about a berain drain in Israel. As if a regional war is supposed to avert that!! What an idiot!
12:01 PM ET
Israel needs to be invited to a sit-down
Just like in the mafia movies where a rogue mafia member, who has become a danger to the organization, is invited to a little meeting. Israel needs to be invited to a little meeting with the rest of the world. In these meetings, the culprit either mend his ways or , "KAPUT!".
hahahaha...kaput...nice ....and in german too!
lol....kaput..that was funny...
how about israel send in an rsvp and tells you to stick it up your corrupt anti semitic asshole!
2:01 PM ET
Ha ha you have no idea what semitic means
Go look it up, Zio-Nazi. See I can call you names also.
2:33 PM ET
call me what you like...I am proud of what I stand for,unlike u
if you hate jews so much, why dont you just come out and say it rather than hiding behind the whole I dont like israels policies crap....
you're a coward like all the other neo nazis on this site.
2:52 PM ET
These are some really cool Jews
I like these Jews. They have the courage to speak the truth about Israel.
7:34 PM ET
I'll say it!!!!!
I HATE ZIONIST.......ALL THEY CARE ABOUT ARE THERE OWN INTEREST, My question to you is why do you all have dual-citizenship If you are so proud to be "jewish". -rhetorical Because all you care about is just your Interest. I SUPPORT NKUSA.ORG ....The True Jews that are following the Toroh and the Bible... God hasn't forgiven you guys yet...you must still walk the earth...not suppose to have a Home land yet.... Zionist knows nothing about religion and spirtuality. Just because you and you zionist government considers yourselves jewish, Means nothing to me. You guys are Racist. You and your settlement cohorts have adopted similar German Nazi Tactics and stratagies by building walls, brainwashing you children and considering yourselves as "chosen ones"...The worst part is that you all have become audacious, and can't see and smell the fecal material on your face.I encourage all reader's to watch "Defamation" the film by yoav Shamir.... A film about jews by a jew. So now I guess Yoav Shamir is a neo nazis!!!! As usual, once you critise these zionist, you're a neo nazi anti semite...blah blah blah....PEOPLE CHECK OUT THE FILM "DEFAMATION"...IT'S REVEALING!!!
and for your edification
I don't bother splitting hairs...anti semitic is a phrase used to denote hatred towards jews, not towards arabs even though they too are semites...the term is generally meant to ascribe hate towards jews and jews only. but leave it to you to give a cowards answer....LOL....
2:55 PM ET
Whatever, go steal some more Palestinian land
Go get your free, stolen land from the Israeli government. Go fill your swimming pool with water stolen from the West Bank. Or go back to your home in Boro Park, perhaps. Yeah, you are so courageous.
3:15 PM ET
TIMING is a religionist
I bet he is so drunk in his self-delusion that he believes that only Jews died in WWII. In his little mind, only Jews matter. You are a disgrace to the human race, sir.
for america rocks...actually, around 50 million died in WW2
of which,6 million were jews..most having been from collaborationist european countries...
there were gypsies, homosexuals, political opponents, etc..etc..etc...
the jews were however uniquely targeted for extermination, much like ahmedinejad would like to do. Einsatzgruppen were also involved in the extermination...these were made up of volunteers ...you know, doctors, lawyers, architects, policemen, etc... mostly professionals, ordinary germans...ordinary in every way except they were just psychotic people looking to murder with the state's approval. a lovely bunch of people....and of course, the murder apparatus was borne out of the T-4 program which was at first killing german christian youth who were deemed disabled....until regular germans protested and got hitler to back down and stop the program....but of course they didnt protest to get hitler to stop killing jews...noooooooo, wouldn't wanna do that...
the real disabled person who should have been euthanized was herr hitler himself...your idol ..your hero....a gutless psycopath who wouldn't even stand up to trial for the things he believed in...rather, the coward shot himself, his whore and his dog blondie...but of course you know all this....
ahhhh yes, neo nazis like you just never learn.
9:43 PM ET
Ahmedinejad has never theatened any Jews
there are 25,000 Jews living in Iran who refuse to leave, even after being offerd generous cash incentives to migrate to Israel. If Ahmedinejad wantd to exterminate Jews, why are they not being exterminated in Iran and why are the Iranian Jews refusing to leave?
>> ahhhh yes, neo nazis like you just never learn.
Nazism was Natinoalism taken to extremess. Zionism is nationalism and beuign taken to extremes.
The best definition of fascism I've read (in 'the Nature of Fascism') is the belief in an organic community which must achieve a certain state of being it previously held. Doesn't sound like Zionism at all!
The fundamental ideological components shared by Zionism and German Nazism are: politicized ethnic fundamentalism, extremist organic nationalism, social Darwinism, biological determinism, essentialism, primordialism, perverted eugenic theory, opposition to race mixing for causing ethnic degeneration, and the corresponding belief in national revival through racial purity.
Jews (even many self-avowed Jewish anti-Zionists) often become indignant, claim Jews could not possibly be Nazis, and fling accusations of anti-Semitism when anyone points out that German Nazism and Zionism are for all intents and purposes practically identical when the obvious substitutions are made. To believe that Jews of all ethnic groups could not possibly be Nazis or develop their own form of Nazi ideology is simply an assertion of Jewish racial or ethnic supremacism associated with the idea of Jewish ethical or spiritual superiority.
In point of fact, Jews fully partook of the intellectual milieu in which German Nazism developed, and many Jews must be counted as ideological founders of German or other forms of Nazism. The extremely important early Zionist leader Max Nordau was intellectually at least as influential on German Nazis as he was on Zionists.
arabs ought to be thankful that israel is as MERCIFUL as it is!
2:54 PM ET
Yeah Arabs have to be thankful for Israeli Terrorism
Since its creation Israel has been invading its neighbors and stealing Palestinian land. Yeah, thanks but no thanks.
A bit crass but still a good point
Israel does indeed have a history of false flag operations. I remember reading that Israeli agents were planting bombs in Egypt at one time and they were blaming it on others.
4:30 PM ET
lol..no land has been stolen
unless of course u mean the land that was once jewish and was stolen by the arabs..and reclaimed by the jews, the rightful owners...as the UN agreed with in 1948.
the so called occupied territories were won in a defensive war...remember, the PLO, a terrorist organizationwas founded in 1964 to "liberate" the land, but there was no occupied territory in 1964! so what were they tryingt to "liberate"?
Plenty of land has been stolen and cotniues to be
>> unless of course u mean the land that was once jewish and was stolen by the arabs..
Nope. The land was stolen by the Jews from teh Canaanites and Philistine, which was then stolen by the Romans and then stolen by the Muslims.
>> and reclaimed by the jews, the rightful owners...as the UN agreed with in 1948.
Rubbish. There was never any statement about the Jews being the rightful owners of the land, neitehr in teh Balfoour Declaration, nor LEague of Nations, nor San Remo.
Hostage - the allies did not consider the historical connection as a basis for any Jewish claim
Andre De Angelis
I honestly don’t see what the point here is besides erasing the jewish connection to eretz yisrael.
Duh! The problem is that the typical Zionist doesn’t realize that the terms “Judea and Samaria”, which you cited from the text of UN General Assembly resolution 181(II), were actually used to exclude those regions from the State of Israel (Medinat Yisrael), i.e.:
The boundary of the hill country of Samaria and Judea starts on the Jordan River at the Wadi Malih south-east of Beisan and runs due west to meet the Beisan-Jericho road and then follows the western side of that road in a north-westerly direction to the junction of the boundaries of the Sub-Districts of Beisan, Nablus, and Jenin.
BTW, the term you used, “historical connection”, was concocted to downplay the fact that the Zionists lack any legal standing to assert a claim to the territory of Palestine during the Post-WWI peace conferences at Versailles and San Remo. The Principle Allied Powers decided there were no bases for a legal entitlement, so Lord Balfour suggested that some polite words about the “historical connection” of the Jewish people be added to the Mandate instead. The travaux préparatoires of the British Foreign Office Committee that was tasked with drafting the Mandate reveal that the Allies did not consider the historical connection as a basis for any Jewish claim:
The General Assembly resolution that you cited not only excluded the bulk of Judea and Samaria from the Jewish state, it prohibited the inhabitants of the Jewish state from obtaining citizenship and moving there:
no Arab residing in the area of the proposed Arab State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Jewish State and no Jew residing in the proposed Jewish State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Arab State.
— United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, November 29, 1947, Chapter 3: Citizenship, International Conventions and Financial Obligations
>> the so called occupied territories were won in a defensive war...
False. Even the US State Department declared that Israel were the agressors in the 1967 war. So did Eshkol. Menachem Begin, Yitzak Rabin and many others.
>> remember, the PLO, a terrorist organizationwas founded in 1964 to "liberate" the land, but there was no occupied territory in 1964! so what were they tryingt to "liberate"?
of course there was. Isral had expelled 800,000 Palestinians 15 years prior.
9:59 PM ET
Wow, you are very knowledgeable
Where did you find all these facts. In particular, where could one learn more about the state of affairs in the time of the Canaanites and Philistines? That is besides the bible, of course.
6:01 PM ET
btw americandouchbag, the naturei kei are mental defectives
I see you hold a great group up for adoration! the very same group who travel to tehran at ahmedinejads invite to promote holocaust denial...lol...a truly lovely group you hold out as friends of yours! who else do they invite? earnst zundel, david duke, david irving....etc..etc..you getting the picture loser boy? they are all loser cowards just like you.
Still blabbing away I see.
Stick to the facts and do not make a further fool of yourself on this forum. Take the swastika off your shoulder and join the human race. Israel is a terrorist state and no amount of posturing by you or any of your buddies is going to change that.
6:20 PM ET
I like Neturei Karta
And if you are a Jew, I like you too. What is your point?
6:24 PM ET
I guess you got your degree in psychology from Harvard or Tel Aviv University. But remember, "It takes one to know one".
I totally agree
Israel is supporting terrorism. There is no way to hide it anymore. We have tried intimidation and threats and coercion but some people can not be bought or scared into believing our lies anymore.
6:37 PM ET
an interesting excerpt from salam fayyad interview
Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad was interviewed in the UK-based Jewish Chronicle this week (“PA shares Israel’s nuclear Iran fears” by Stephen Pollard, January 12, 2012). “We are greatly harmed by [Iranian] President [Mahmoud] Ahmadinejad projecting himself as a spokesman for the Palestinians,” said Fayyad.
“He seeks the destruction of Israel. We do not. We are deeply troubled by Iran’s interventions and we suffer from them.”
7:39 PM ET
I HATE ZIONIST.......ALL THEY CARE ABOUT ARE THERE OWN INTEREST, My question to you is why do you all have dual-citizenship If you are so proud to be "jewish". -rhetorical Because all you care about is just your Interest. I SUPPORT NKUSA.ORG ....The True Jews that are following the Toroh and the Bible... God hasn't forgiven you guys yet...you must still walk the earth...not suppose to have a Home land yet.... Zionist knows nothing about religion and spirtuality. Just because you and you zionist government considers yourselves jewish, Means nothing to me. You guys are Racist. You and your settlement cohorts have adopted similar German Nazi Tactics and stratagies by building walls, brainwashing you children and considering yourselves as "chosen ones"...The worst part is that you all have become audacious, and can't see and smell the fecal material on your face.I encourage all reader's to watch "Defamation" the film by yoav Shamir.... A film about jews by a jew. So now I guess Yoav Shamir is a neo nazis!!!! As usual, once you critise these zionist, you're a neo nazi anti semite...blah blah blah....PEOPLE CHECK OUT THE FILM "DEFAMATION"...IT'S REVEALING!!!
9:11 PM ET
a better film; obsession; radical islams war against the west
for anyone who doesn't really know, the NK are full of crap. as I said, they along with david duke(ex KKk grand wizard) and david irving(indighted holocaust denier) and earnst zundel(loser neo nazi scum who was deported to a german jail).... are all invited by ahmedinejad to tehran for their barnum abd bailey hate fest.
as for jews who are self loathing....there's a word for those...kapos. every race has em...every group has em..they are traitors...jews have chomsky, and finkelstein and the idiot in london, the jazz freakzoid who mearsheimer wrote the intro for....go figure...what a group! LOL....
ISRAEL was legal in 1948, by the whole world according to the UN which you haters love to love when it supports you and hate to hate when it doesnt.
remember, the PLO, a nasty trrorist group was formed in 1964...thats 3 yrs PRIOR to there being ANY so called occupied territory. So what were they established for in 1964???? hmmmmmm.....seems when jordan owned the WB and egypt owned gaza, the palestinians had NO interest in those areas...lol....
the whole settlement issue is a canard...israel has always offered to trade them back in return for full recognition. the arabs have always said no...3 times in fact at khartoum! will israel uproot settlements? yes, they did in gaza, which was an error....obviously. all hamas has done is show the world what 12th century donkeys they are....none the less, for israel to make a final deal with the pals, the pals have to come to the negotiations, which they have not done yet. amazing...they want a state, but they wont sit down for negotiations. I guess they think obama will do it for them!
9:28 PM ET
a better film; obsession; Israel thows the US under the bus
>> ... are all invited by ahmedinejad to tehran for their barnum abd bailey hate fest.
Sad but irrelevant. Girt Wielders was invited to the US for their hate fest, and Netanyahu was invited by Congress to give a speech. Even Avigdor Liberman, the fascist, was invited to the US.
>> as for jews who are self loathing....there's a word for those...kapos.
Which sounds a lot like the terms Apartheid South Africans used for blacks. the more one compares Israel to apartheid South Africa, the greater the similarities.
>> every race has em...every group has em..they are traitors...
Yes, people who speak their mind from their conscience rather than shut up and tow the tribal party line. No wonder Zionists hate democracy, progressivism and human rights so much.
>> ISRAEL was legal in 1948, by the whole world according to the UN which you haters love to love when it supports you and hate to hate when it doesnt.
Correction - the state of Israel as per the borders laid out by UGAR181 was legal in 1948. That was the state that did not include the West Bank or Jerusalem. Clearly that is not the Israel of today.
>> remember, the PLO, a nasty trrorist group was formed in 1964...thats 3 yrs PRIOR to there being ANY so called occupied territory.
3 years prior to the occupation but 20 years after the mass expulsion of 800,000 Palestinians by Israel, and yes, Israel had indeed taken control of land outside it's 1949 borders.
Speaking of nasty terrorist groups, they helped create Israel and the leaders of these nasty terrorist groups were elected to the office of Prime Minister, which proves that Israel honors terrorism.
>> the whole settlement issue is a canard...israel has always offered to trade them back in return for full recognition.
False. In 2002, 22 Arab States signed a Peace Initiative, which offered full recognition of Israel + normalization of relations with the Arab world along the 1967 borders. Israel has rejected the offer ever since.
>> will israel uproot settlements? yes, they did in gaza, which was an error....
No they won't. The settlement in Gaza only held 8,000 illegal settlers and Israel were happy to let them go. Defending the Gaza settlements was too costly to justify the cost. The West Bank and East Jerusalem was always the prize.
>> none the less, for israel to make a final deal with the pals, the pals have to come to the negotiations, which they have not done yet.
False. Israel and the Palestinians both signed a Peace Road Map in 2003, which the Knesset ratified. It included 3 Phases which had to be satisfied. Under Phase 1, Israel agreed to stop (NTO FREEZE BUT STOP COMPLETELY) building settlements. Phase 2, negotiations were not supposed to begin until Phase 1 was completed.
The Palestinians, who did meet their own obligation to the satisfaction of the Quarter under Phase 1, would be fools to legitimize Israel’s violation and rejection of such an agreement. Even worse, this proves that even if they were to reach an agreement, Israel's word is not the paper it is written on.
9:46 PM ET
neoleft, ooops, i meant neonazi...your arguments are bunk
all of them are full of giant holes and misrepresentations that your dog masters brainwashed you with.
too long to reply...but really, you are pathetic. you just dont even know what you are talking about. but for your record, jimmy carter, whose book used the term apartheid in it, ADMITTED that he chose the word for the cover for sensational purposes but he clearly said, israel is NOT an apartheid state in any way. arabs are in govt. teach in universities, are lawyers, doctors, can vote, enjoy freedom of expression, etc..etc...etc...you really are a dirty little liar...
and for your further edification, there were maybe 450 -480, 000 arabs who left israel voluntarily after being encouraged to do so by haj amin al husseini, the grand mufti who was hitler's confidant in berlin during the war.
I dont have time to respond to each of your slimy points, but for anytone who cares to know facts, do the real research, not what this scumbag has been taught by stormfront.
11:44 PM ET
Timing's bad timing
>> too long to reply
Translation: You don;t have any talking points to refute teh facts, so best to pretend you're to busy. I get it.
>> jimmy carter, whose book used the term apartheid in it, ADMITTED that he chose the word for the cover for sensational purposes
Who cares what Varter said? 2 South Arican Prime Ministers and a South African Sourt have declared Israel an apartheid state. That includes the man who invested apartheid, who called ISrael apartrheid in 1961 - and he did so as an act of admiration.
Nelson Madela and Desmon Tutu have also called Israel apartheid.
>> there were maybe 450 -480, 000 arabs who left israel voluntarily after being encouraged to do so by haj amin al husseini
That was debunked by ISraeli histrorian Benny Morris, and the number expelled from threat fo murder was 800,000. Tehre is no evidenechusseini encouraged anyone.
>> the grand mufti who was hitler's confidant in berlin during the war.
No he wasn't. He was an irrelevant stooge. He had no authority in Palestine after 1937.
It's clearly time for your medication Timing.
9:17 PM ET
OH, and lets not forget the UN partition plan of 47'
the UN partition plan of 1947 was accepted by israel and rejected by the arabs..yes, the very same arabs who a mere few years before had sided with HITLER! go figure....yes, that's right...the arabs threw in with hitler against the uk, france, the US, russia, basically against everyone except for germany, italy and japan. How about dem arabs! lol....
9:34 PM ET
Yes about that UN partition
>> the UN partition plan of 1947 was accepted by israel and rejected by the arabs..
And the day after ISrael acceptd it, Ben Guirion gave a speech to MAPAI that the partition was a stepping stone and only temporary, that the borders were meaningless. He then orderes teh Zioniost militias to begin expelling Palestinians - in direct violation of UNGAR181.
So even if the Arabs had accepted it, it wouldn't have made any difference.
>> yes, the very same arabs who a mere few years before had sided with HITLER!
No thery weren't. The Mufti, who was not elected but appointed by the British, was the only man who sided with Hitler and he was in exile from 1937 and had no influebnce in Palestine.
Mind you, you can find many examples fo Zionists siding with Hitler. 51 documents to be exact.
How about dem Zionists!!
9:19 PM ET
a good film....
9:36 PM ET
a few more good ones...
11:58 PM ET
Makes perfect sense seeing as Israel created
Hamad to offset the influence of the PLO.
9:47 PM ET
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10:07 PM ET
NEOLEFT please answer this question
Does the name Palestine derive from the Philistines?
11:40 PM ET
The name Palestine does derive from the name Philistine.
10:32 PM ET
i'll answer that for you
the romans names judea palestine as a mock reference to the philistine culture which was thought to be barbaric...and so the romans, renamed judea palestina to mock the jews. Up until the 20th century, palestine was a term used to denote jews in the the land of israel, or formerly, judea. remember, Jerusalem was always populated by jews far more than any other race or culture...even all the way up to and into the 20th century.
regardless, the UN made israel again legitimate in 1948. fast forward to 1967....The jews never wanted the territories..they only won them in a defensive war in 1967...3 yrs AFTER the PLO was established to "liberate" the land...lol...... so why was the PLO(palestine liberation organization) established in 1964? anti semites just hate that factual question...lol...
do things like the munich massacre in 1972 make people think that the pals somehow profiled themselves well as being responsible for a state? by killing olympic athletes? really? I hate to say it but, the arabs are complete sociopathic nutbag terrorists...intolerant, aggressive, hateful , backwards, warlike....hell, all they;ve been doing for the past 1,000 yrs is fighting each other and fighting everone else too! Israel makes nobel prize winners, and the palestinians make suicide vests.
10:41 PM ET
NO offence but I would not trust TIMING for anything
Timing has been shown to be a falsehood dispenser by neoleft. I would not trust him for anything.
11:18 PM ET
Who were the Hebrews mocking when they called Cannen Judea?
>> Up until the 20th century, palestine was a term used to denote jews in the the land of israel, or formerly, judea.
No, it was a term to denote everyone who lived in the region, Christian and Muslim too.
>> Jerusalem was always populated by jews far more than any other race or culture...even all the way up to and into the 20th century.
Except that Jews are:
a) notg a race, but an ethnicity
b) they were always a minoroty anyway
>> regardless, the UN made israel again legitimate in 1948
Only as per the UGAR181.
>> fast forward to 1967....The jews never wanted the territories..
Rubbish. In December 1947, Ben Gurion gave a steep to the MAPAI conventino, assuring them that the partition was only temporary and that ISrael would reclaim all of Palestine.
>> they only won them in a defensive war in 1967.\
False again. Menachem Begin admitted there was nothing defensinve about the war. On 14 April 1971, a report in the Israeli newspaper Al-Hamishmar contained the following statement by Mordecai Bentov, a member of the wartime national government.
“The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.”
>> ..3 yrs AFTER the PLO was established to "liberate" the land...lol...... so why was the PLO(palestine liberation organization) established in 1964?
To liberate the land Israle stole between 1947 and 1956.
>> do things like the munich massacre in 1972 make people think that the pals somehow profiled themselves well as being responsible for a state?
Do things like the bombing of the King David Hotel and he Deir Yassin Massacre make people think that the Zionists somehow profiled themselves well as being responsible for a state?
Menachen Begin, teh terrorist leader who went on to become Prime Minister of Israel, once boasted that he alone introduced terrorism to the region. Doesn;t that sound like a complete sociopathic nutbag terrorist?
And he along with the otehr terrorist leader, Yitzak Shamir, were both honored with election to lead the country.
>> ...intolerant, aggressive, hateful , backwards, warlike....
Yes, that would sum up Zionism to a T.
>> Israel makes nobel prize winners, and the palestinians make suicide vests.
Nazi Germany also made smart scientists, which proves that scientific achievement is no guarantee against morality or civility.
nono, neoleft is a rabid diseased jew hater...
a brownshirter..and a cowardly one at that! LOL....Imagine, from behind the anonymity of a computer screen, he's still afraid to say that he simply dont like jooooooooos....lol...
does he take offense at russia killing 20,000 civilians in chechnya? nope. how about sri lanks where 20,000 were killed there? nope. How about sudan? not a care...what about turkey's repression of their journalists? nothing. saudi arabia and its treatment of women? nope. what about afghanistan and the taliban? silence. in short, the weasel is a hypocrite. israel DEFENDS herself in gaza in 2009, hamas uses its own women as human shields, israel goes to extreme lengths to minimize civilian casualties and only 200- 300 civilians are killed (according to hamas), and yet somehow neonazileft takes issue with the ONLY true democracy in the whole middle east, where gays are welcomed, where all people vote, where muslims make up 20 % of the population...etc..etc...
it is with great joy that we jooooos laugh at cowards and liars like neoscum.
11:36 PM ET
Sorry Timing, but the truth muct be anti Semitic
Every time one of you Hasbra trolls gets knocked down, you sream "Jew Hater"!
>> does he take offense at russia killing 20,000 civilians in chechnya?
Funny, I don't recall you mentionong anythng about Chechnya, Sri lanka, Sudan, or Turkey, let alone askign me about them.
>>...what about turkey's repression of their journalists?
You mean like Israel arresting journalists who report from Gaza?
>> saudi arabia and its treatment of women?
Saudi Arabia is the most vile regime - funnily enough, the saudis and the ISraelis stood alone, shoulder to shoudler in support fo Mubarak during the revolution in Egypt.
>> nope. what about afghanistan and the taliban?
You didn't ask about them either.
>> israel DEFENDS herself in gaza in 2009
False. Isral broke the 4 months ceasefire to start Cast Lead (on the day of the US electons so as not to attract attention) because ehy wanted teh ceasefire to end.
>> hamas uses its own women as human shields
Shit Bet protested an Israeli Superme Court ban on the use of human shields.
>> israel goes to extreme lengths to minimize civilian casualties and only 200- 300 civilians are killed (according to hamas)
Make that 1,400. Hamas said 600 member fo Hamas were killed, 250 of which were polic cadets. Israle killed 330 chidlren alone.
Isrqael is not a democacy, it is an apartheid regime. The 20% Arabs live under apartheid as 3rd class citizens.
>> it is with great joy that we jooooos laugh at cowards and liars like neoscum
That might explain why Israel is regarded as a pariah state and shares the same satus as North Korea.
12:00 AM ET
Your figures are all wrong
And gays are NOT welcome in certain parts of Tel Aviv. Do you read the papers at all? I have not read that Neo hates anyone, much less you. I think it is time for your medicine.
12:04 AM ET
Israel treated the reporters on the Gaza Freedom Fleet very bad
Yes, very badly indeed. No one is hiding, the truth is self evident. Israel is not a good ally of the USA.
11:03 PM ET
so called occupied territories were won in a defensive war
israel didnt want that war...it had to fight it to defend themselves. The pals didnt want the west bank when it was owned by jordan and they didnt want gaza when it was owned by egypt! they only wanted it once they lost the war and israel became the new governors. You know which land the pals really wanted? jordan. they tried to overthrow King abdullah senior in 1969-70 and the PLO was routed and chased out of jordan.
11:39 PM ET
The 1967 war was an act of agression by Israel
>> israel didnt want that war
Yeah sure. In 1982, Prime Minister Begin, arguably the world’s most successful terrorist leader, went even further. He said : “In June 1967 we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us, We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”
On 14 April 1971, a report in the Israeli newspaper Al-Hamishmar contained the following statement by Mordecai Bentov, a member of the wartime national government. “The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.”
>> The pals didnt want the west bank when it was owned by jordan and they didnt want gaza when it was owned by egypt!
False, they wanted it but knew they couldn't defend it against Israeli agression.
>> You know which land the pals really wanted? jordan.]
False. Jordan is not Palestine and visa versa.
>> they tried to overthrow King abdullah senior in 1969-70 and the PLO was routed and chased out of jordan.]
Abdullah was a US puppet dicator. Of course they wanted to overthrow him.
12:06 AM ET
You never heard of the Geneva conventions of war
Territory won by aggression or war is not to be kept but returned to the rightful owners. In the case of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, they belong to the Palestinian people.
1:15 AM ET
It's also found in the preamble fo UNSC242
Which states that the territory acquired during the 1967 war is inadmissible.
11:42 PM ET
All this war and nuclear talk gets me all reved up. Im gonna need some gout home remedies to keep this gout in check all of this war and nuclear talk gets me all stressed out and makes my health go for a dump. ugghhh
12:15 AM ET
has anyone heard of an American ship called: USS Liberty?
I read somewhere that this ship was attacked in international waters and the attackers tried to blame it on someone else. Does anyone know about this?
4:36 AM ET
Very interesting and very
Very interesting and very bold from the israeli side...and im glad that there are people making a difference in the world today. It is time that we move forward as a species and end all of the pain and suffering in the world. My friend who works at touch screen car stereo says that the world is changing so rapidly now that this is a possibility. Maybe even an end to conflict.
8:44 AM ET
morris revised his work once he had access to new archives...the official number is somewhere around 460-480k who VOLUNTARILY left palestine...you ought to read efraim karsh' palestine betrayed...a much more scholarly and updated effort. that aside, israel was legal in 1948. when 5 armies are massed on your borders ready to attack, its a wise move to hit them first. again, the pals did not want WB or GAZA prior to 1967 when they were run by jordan and egypt respectively. Only once they lost these areas in a war designed to eliminate israel did they suddenly want the land...lol...
per the US, israel has never once asked the US to committ soldiers to fight israel's battles. In fact, in 1991, when bush senior cobbled together a coalition to free kuwait from saddam, israel was asked not to reply to saddam's firing of scuds, unprovoked, at israel and as a FAVOUR to bush, israel dd not reply to saddam. Americans fight to support their own global ambitions.... namely peace and prosperity..I know liberals dont get that, but thats to their shame...neville...america fought in korea not for israel, and in vietnam not for israel, and in iraq not for israel and in afghanistan not for israel...you can spin it all you want- those wars had nothing to do with israel. The fact is, israel is a beacon of democracy in the ME and beyond..you may not like all of their policies, .but no country is free from criticism. I guess thats just too bad for you. If the pals want a state, they were free to have one in 1947, which they rejected and they were free anytime since then if only they renounce violence and the drive to eliminate israel, cause thats NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN! :-) The arabs really should stop using their women and children as shields, stoip using mosques to store and use weapons, stop using their hospitals to store weapons and shield their terrorist leaders...etc..etc...all they have done is profile themselves as a bunch of rabid dogs lusting for jewish blood...and it AINT GONNA HAPPEN....hehehehe....
per obama? your god....lol...well, he was all talk in 08'....it all sounded oh so good eh? lovely, new dawn, flowery speeches...he was going to talk to ahmefinejad, he was going to bring nations together, he had a funky new RESET BUTTON with russia, in a nice box hillary presented to the monsters flunky medvedev...all was awesome! lol....oh yes, the newly crafted MULTILATERALISM, the kinder gentler america under obama's flowery words was going to win over russia and china for global issues, it was going to win over the arab muslims...yatta yatta yattta....well my friends, NONE OF THAT HAS COME TO PASS. NONE. PAKISTAN -US relations are in free fall, the middle east is rapidly islamicising, turkey continues to slip to the east and is purging its military of secularists and jailing journalists, russia which got obama to stiff the poles and czechs when he removed their defensive missile shield is now not only not helping on iran, they are actively blocking and backdooring sanctions...and sending arms and warships to protect assad! oh yes, that multilateralism sure is working like a charm. China is just laughing at how weak and easily manipulated obama is. and of course in the ME "peace process", obama has clearly muddied the waters and naively emboldened abbas into a position whereby negotiations are MORE difficult, not more achievable. He has been decidedly in error in attempting to USE his ally to appease his enemies...a not so brilliant strategy, crafted by the likes of power, brzezhinski, zakaria and khalidi. He is completely out of his depth and definitely has made things worse. As far as his domestic policies are concerned, he is a total failure. Pitting one american against another, heralding class warfare, division, animosity, envy, jealousy, hate...etc..etc...and for what? all for his own selfish political ambitions. I call that disgusting. I caqll that a total 180 from what he promised the electorate he was going to be. And dont start with congress being obstructionist because the congress under pelosi in 2007 was the blueprint for obstruction!
9:36 AM ET
G_D will punish you TIMING
many of the words you spew from your mouth are lies. You know they are lies but choose to delude yourself. You will not change the truth. Go brush your teeth.
6:18 PM ET
Mirris did not revise down his numbers and his subsequent publication was not based on access to new archives.
In fact, Morris maintains they there are millions of documents the Israeli government refuses to declassify. Netenyahu just extended the classification period for documents from 1948 on the grounds that releasing them would threaten Israeli national security, so there is obviously much the Israelis need to hide.
>>the official number is somewhere around 460-480k who VOLUNTARILY left palestine...
False. There is no official number, but numbers historians generally agree on is 750 - 800,000. All agree that the Palestinians fled from threat of being murdered. 70% or more were threatened directly by the Zionist death squads.
>> read efraim karsh' palestine betrayed...
Only if you like to read the outpourings of a discredited propagandist who Morris has described as a useful idiot who refuses to read material he doesn't like - such as Ben Gurion's own diaries.
>! israel was legal in 1948. when 5 armies are massed on your borders ready to attack, its a wise move to hit them first.
Israel was legal as per the 1948 borders. As for the 5 armies, Israel had already expelled 300,000 Palestinians during the 5 months before any Arab armies set foot into Palestine.
>>again, the pals did not want WB or GAZA prior to 1967
False. The WB and Gaza was home to many of them. Jordan were there to protect Arab territory from the Israelis, though Israel ended up stealing it anyway and Egypt were only administering Gaza.
>> per the US, israel has never once asked the US to committ soldiers to fight israel's battles.
Except Iraq if course. Prior to that, It hasn't 't needed to seeing as the US has endured Israel enjoyed overwhelming military superiority.
>>In fact, in 1991, when bush senior cobbled together a coalition to free kuwait from saddam, israel was asked not to reply to saddam's firing of scuds
Israel was amply rewarded for complying.
>Americans fight to support their own global ambitions.... namely peace and prosperity..
No, they fight to maintain US dominance.
>! The fact is, israel is a beacon of democracy in the ME and beyond...
No it's a racist apartheid war obsessed state. If it were a beacon of any kind, Israel's popularity wouldn't be languishing at the bottom alongside North Korea's.
>>..you may not like all of their policies, .but no country is free from criticism
Except that you reject criticism as being anti Semitic, so clearly you would like it to be.
>> . I guess thats just too bad for you. If the pals want a state, they were free to have one in 1947
As Ben Gurion said in a speech to MAPAI the day after UNGAR181 was passed, Israel were never going to allow the Palestinians to have a state.
>> the arabs really should stop using their women and children as shields
Sadly, that had never stopped Israel from targeting them. After all, we've all seen the t-shirt IDF thugs like to wear emblazoned with the logo "one shot, two kills".
>> using mosques to store and use weapons, stop using their hospitals to store weapons and shield their terrorist
The trouble is that Israel started this when they used synagogues and hospitals to hide weaponry from the British.
You can't blame the Palestinians for mimicking the Zionists.
>> all they have done is profile themselves as a bunch of rabid dogs lusting for jewish blood...
Wasn't it Moshe Dayan who said Israel must be like a rabbis dog?
>> per obama? your god....lol...well, he was all talk in 08'....it all sounded oh so good eh?
Obama proved that the US is incapable of diplomacy . There was no reset switch with Russia and the overtures with Iran were just political theatre.
What Obama proved is that the US's idea of reset means that other states should become subservient to the US.
>> MULTILATERALISM, the kinder gentler america under obama's flowery words
Bush also campaigned on a kinder gentler america, which again proved the US is incapable of it.
> China is just laughing at how weak and easily manipulated obama is.
So is Netenyahu.
8:56 AM ET
and yes, i call an anti semite when I see or hear one...
yes, that's right, there are lots of anti semites on this site. I say that with full certainty. And its ok..im not angry...there have always been lots of you...thankfully, there are many many more non jewish folks who loathe what you are...they loathe what you stand for...people like neo who have never even been to israel have no idea what israel is like in reality. and btw, your numbers are waaaaay off about cast lead..and besides, israel was gentle with gaza..they were in fact merciful. When thousands of missiles are raining down on your sovereign territory, you have a RIGHT to make it stop, and that is precisely what israel did. If it were up to me, gaza would have received a much harsher lesson. no troops, no incursion....just block after block after block blown to smithereens by the air force....you should be THANKFUL israel is as merciful as they are.
9:38 AM ET
It sounds like you practice self-loathing yourself. You reflect all the bad things for which Zionism stands; lies and land theft.
5:03 PM ET
And when you're not seeing them, you're imagining them
>> yes, that's right, there are lots of anti semites on this site.
No, there's just a lot of people who disagree with you.
>>..people like neo who have never even been to israel have no idea what israel is like in reality.
Wrong. I've been to Israel, so yes, I know exactly what it is like.
>? your numbers are waaaaay off about cast lead..and besides, israel was gentle with gaza..
The numbers are based on independent bodies like HRW and the UN. It's mind boggling how anyone with any humanity could describe the massacre on 1,400 as gentle, especially seeing as Israel started it.
>>. When thousands of missiles are raining down on your sovereign territory, you have a RIGHT to make it stop, and that is precisely what israel did.
False. There were no rockets raining down on Israel when Israel decided to violate the ceasefire that had been working very well for over 4 months.
Cast Lead was nothing but a massacre by cowards armed with deadly weapons.
9:50 AM ET
The USS liberty was a US ship on a peaceful mission. Here is an excerpt from the veteran's site:
ON JUNE 8, 1967, while patrolling in international waters in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel. Of a crew of 294 officers and men (including three civilians), the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy three (173) wounded in action. The ship itself, a Forty Million ($40,000,000) Dollar state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform, was so badly damaged that it never sailed on an operational mission again and was sold in 1970 for $101,666.66 as scrap.
10:33 AM ET
An event which occurred 45
An event which occurred 45 years ago is largely irrelevant.
Current Israeli policies are the real concern in particular their apparent desire to spark an armed conflict between the US and Iran to neuter Iranian nuclear ambitions.
Manipulating American policy, especially where American lives are concerned, is not appropriate behaviour for a country that defines itself as an ally.
12:29 PM ET
You are correct
911 also happened in the past and hence is no longer relevant. Good point.
11:02 AM ET
Ignore Timing... Ignore Israel
Timing, is the "mini me" of Zionist Israel.As I previously stated the new effective way to deal with these charecters, Is to debunk them as NEOLEFT has done in such a classical way, then to ignore their attempt to create chaos.
11:08 AM ET
Wrong and frankly questionable analyses
Iran is not exclusively israels problem, its the whole worlds, and most especially the US' as there are just certain geopolitical responsibilities that the US is and always will be involved in...its called reality...russia too has plenty to worry about..so does europe...this is NOT regional issue as you would have it be....its not going to be some small self contained skirmish. What kind of unobjective prism are you seeing this through? oh wait, I already know the answer to that...
the only thing that will preserve the wider peace in the region is nuclear IMBALANCE...yes, thats right. ironic huh? the fact is, israel has been exemplary in its resposibilities with their nuclear arsenal, ESPECIALLY given the last 50 yrs surrounded by a bunch of nutjobs...imagine if this had been reversed..imagine if the arabs had nukes and israel didnt...nuff said.
if you allow iran nukes, the world is going to one day suffer mightliy...the whole region WILL then go nuclear and at some point in time, something will set it off. This is NOT some static cold war standoff between 2 fairly stable monoliths...this is much more dangerous, much less likely to be "controlled" or "contained". say what you want, iran with nukes is a very bad idea, anyway you slice it.
4:45 PM ET
Bad Timing and not a clue
>> Iran is not exclusively israels problem, its the whole worlds
False. Russia and China day Iran is not making nukes and therefore not a problem. Hillary Clinton said Iran posed no threat to the US. Europe is just going along with what Washington says and as we know, Washington is Israeli occupied territory.
>> the US' as there are just certain geopolitical responsibilities that the US is and always will be involved in...
They're not responsibilities, they are big money interests.
This is clearly a regional issue and the Israelis want the US to sort it out for them.
>. What kind of unobjective prism are you seeing this through?
This coming from a Hasbrat who advocated nuclear IMBALANCE.
>> the only thing that will preserve the wider peace in the region is nuclear IMBALANCE...yes, thats right. ironic huh?
Not ironic because it's false. You're simply conflating peace with Israeli hegemony.
>> israel has been exemplary in its resposibilities with their nuclear arsenal
Except when it threatened to use them in 1973 unless the US saved it's ass against Egypt.
>> if the arabs had nukes and israel didnt...nuff said.
Yeah, Israel wouldn't be stealing land and acting like a bunch of collective psychopaths.
>!if you allow iran nukes, the world is going to one day suffer mightliy...
No they won 't. Even the neocons at the AEI admit that Iran would be non threat even with a nuke. Netenyahu admitted to Jonah Goldberg that the only threat a nuclear armed Iran posed to Israel would be that it might lead to an Israeli brain drain.
Yes you heard that right. Bibbi wants to take the world into WWIII to stop Jews leaving the country. Talk about a nut job! Sure a massive regional war would have the same effect, but Zionist messianic extremist like him seen per disposed to self destruction.
>> This is NOT some static cold war standoff between 2 fairly stable monoliths...this is much more dangerous
Rubbish. First of all, hasn't hasn't attacked or invaded anyone in 270 years, so they are no threat. Secondly, Iran are not making nukes do there is no threat again.
When are you Zionist sociopaths going am to get over your Massada complex?
11:20 AM ET
zeig heil neoleft!
January 20, 2012
yeah what he said
A racist can be of any religion or ethnic background.
"After all, it's hard to
"After all, it's hard to engage with a foreign government if they're convinced you're killing their people. Once you start doing that, they feel they can do the same."
Do you mean like Iran has been doing to other countries all over the world? like they have been doing to americans in Iraq and afghanistan? This article is a joke. If Jundallah wants to kill Iranian thugs i say go ahead, knock yourselves out!
Hating Iranians will not make them go away
Seems like you would dance if innocent Iranian civilians are murdered. How would you feel if innocent Israelis were butchered like cattle?
The Ayatollahs started this war and they will burn if they do
not stop what they are doing. Israel does not play around. They think they can threaten the the Children of the Holocaust and scare us? They got the wrong number. For their own sakes they had better back off!
10:50 PM ET
why always Iran, America and Israel?
10:13 AM ET
Israel is the real threat in the ME
The problem is not Iran but Israel and its terrorism.
Israel is here to stay forever. Hope America is too, but I have
my doubts. Americans are too soft and easy to fool, and the Islamofascists are too clever for Americans to grasp.
2:56 PM ET
We are on to the war demonics. Directed energy weapons. Whatever you got up your sleeve our first question is who is screwing Iran.
4:24 PM ET
Israel and the USA attacking Iran
Why do you think that the Iranians have a US drone now? The Israelis have been named as the source of the Stuxnet virus that attacked the Iranian centrifuges.
7:33 PM ET
The Iranians have an American drone now because of American
ineptness! THey will never capture an ISraeli drone, that's for sure. They know that Israel does not play around. They find their targets and eliminate them. That is the only language Islamofascists understand and appreciate. I was amazed and thankful that the US FINALLY caught Osama bin Laden. THe only thing Obama has done right so far!
12:09 AM ET
War on Oil is Killing Us
Very good article, and you bring up good points, As an American I have not understood the past few wars, they claim is on terrorism, when in fact, I can't help but think it's oil. Ridiculous.
5:39 AM ET
WMD is not a word
The "word' WMD was re-introduced to the American lexicon in 2003. It had been coined in the 30's and has been used sporadically since. However, in my 40 yrs I'd never heard it. My immediate reaction to WMD was ?!???! WTF? What the hell does that even mean? Being a Skeptic I investigated.
Obviously. WMD refers to weapons made from Chemical, Biological, or Nuclear. However, There is no effective dispersal mechanisms for chem or bio that could cause mass fatalities. Maybe, a group in an enclosed facility, but, nothing like Dresden or Hiroshima. That only leaves Nuclear.
The fake word WMD (it doesn't even have a vowel!) is a piece of marketing BS, stop using it!
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