A Forward Strategy of Freedom

It's neither perfect nor pretty, but the Arab Spring proves that neoconservatives were right all along.

BY ELLIOTT ABRAMS | JANUARY 23, 2012

There is a sour mood nowadays about the so-called Arab Spring. Armed gangs roam in Libya, Salafists win votes in Egypt, and minorities like the Egyptian Copts live in fear -- as does the Shiite majority in Bahrain. The whole "experiment" seems to some critics to be a foolish, if idealistic project that promises to do nothing but wreak havoc in the Middle East. These same critics cast blame at the Americans who applauded the Arab revolts of the past year: naive, ideological, ignorant, dangerous folk.

As one of those folk, allow me to strike back.

The failures of the Arab world's rulers were manifest and explicitly described well before 2011, and it was no secret that these deficiencies threatened their hold on power. In 2002, the U.N. Development Program's Arab Human Development Report noted that the spread of democracy in recent decades from Latin America to Eastern Europe "has barely reached the Arab States." It was precisely this lack of freedom, the report argued, that "undermines human development and is one of the most painful manifestations of lagging political development."

U.S. President George W. Bush recognized this stark reality. "Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism?" he asked at the 20th anniversary of the National Endowment for Democracy. "Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe -- because in the long run, stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty."

Bush and the U.N. Development Program's analysis were right, and those who judged that the old regimes could survive forever were wrong. What has been called "authoritarian resilience" turned out to be less impressive after all, and the popular hatred of those regimes much greater.

The Arab Spring is therefore not a peculiarity of history, but a natural outcome for regimes that had quite simply become illegitimate in the eyes of their subjects. Of the possible sources of legitimacy -- such as democracy, religion, monarchic succession, or the creation of great prosperity -- they had none. They were kept in place solely by force, and they were far less stable than the vast majority of scholars, diplomats, and political leaders thought. They were not overthrown because Bush criticized them or President Barack Obama failed to shore them up, but because they lacked a coherent defense of their own rule.

Thus the neocons, democrats, and others who applauded the Arab uprisings were right, for what was the alternative? To applaud continued oppression? To instruct the rulers on better tactics, the way Iran is presumably lecturing (and arming) Syria's Bashar al-Assad? Such a stance would have made a mockery of American ideals, would have failed to keep these hated regimes in place for very long, and would have left behind a deep, almost ineradicable anti-Americanism. This kind of so-called "realpolitik" is the path U.S. President Richard Nixon's administration took after the Greek military coup in 1967, and nearly a half-century later the Greeks have still not forgiven the United States.

Of course, the best answer is that we should have been pushing harder for reform all along, but that is after all the Bush/neocon/democracy activist line. Take U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's 2005 speech at the American University in Cairo or Bush's second inaugural address -- both reviled by "realists." It would be nice if some of the critics now admitted that such speeches were prophetic, even if the United States was far too tentative in adopting, as Bush put it at the National Endowment for Democracy, "a forward strategy of freedom in the Middle East."

Instead, the critics condemn such a strategy for producing the dangers we now see. That is exactly wrong, for it was in fact the policy of ignoring gross oppression that helped bring us to the precipice of today's dangers. Bush, after all, was not urging instant remedies; he said democratization was "the concentrated work of generations." He was urging reform, in part because it is usually far safer than revolution. Those who thought "durable authoritarianism" could persist forever have far more to apologize for than Bush, democracy activists, or neocons do.

But we are where we are, so the next question is whether the Arab Spring will actually fulfill its promise of greater democratic rights or whether it will simply usher in an era of extremist Islamist regimes or new forms of authoritarianism. The pessimists might yet be proved right -- any comparison of the Arab lands to Eastern Europe suggests that many positive elements are missing, not least the magnet and model of the European Union.

Jeff J Mitchell/Getty Images

 

Elliott Abrams is a senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. He was deputy assistant to the president and deputy national security advisor for global democracy strategy in U.S. President George W. Bush's administration.

GOOGOOYOU

7:46 PM ET

January 23, 2012

right about what?

The U.S. has done a great job of championing Democracy and freedom, but has been a miserable failure at the follow through and closing. It does not matter if you are right, if the end result is a failure in execution or follow through. We promoted democracy in our own hemisphere, but failed to ensure those democracies lived up to the democratic ideals. What did we get in return: we got a bunch of people disenchanted with America's brand of Democracy in Middle and South America, resulting in folks like Chavez. Likewise, we may pride ourselves with seeing Democracy sprout in the Middle East and North Africa, but we are not going to like the brand of Democracy that arises. We didn't like it when Democracy championed Hezbollah and Hamas, then neither did they since it meant being actually responsible for winning. The problem with promoting freedom and Democracy is that the emerging rulers and regimes do not execute Democracy well, they simply execute it.

 

ILLBUNCH

6:07 PM ET

January 24, 2012

championing Democracy and freedom?!!!

To paraphrase Apocalypse Now : I don't see any democracy at all, sir.

 

FREEDOMER

11:34 PM ET

January 24, 2012

Libya was not a success.

Libya was not a success. Gaddafi was effectively demonized despite the fact that Libya is reported to have had free electricity insurance, no interest on loans, stipends for newlyweds and new mothers, free education, insurance and medical treatments, land grants and equipment for farming, as well as individual profits from oil sales. It is also important to note the miraculous Great Manmade River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country which only produces handmade jewelry. I have seen him driven through the streets waving at his enthusiastic supporters with no protection. What leader can do that? Then they were bombed to kingdom come.

 

DMOLONEY

10:34 AM ET

January 25, 2012

@FREEDOMER

Please spare us this pro-gaddafi foolishness, the reason why there was an up-rising was because gaddafi ruled over an oppressive state that the people had enough with, when they protested against him he unleahed great destruction on his own people.

And the last comment is really odd, gaddafi clearly couldnt travel around without security forces protesting him, this was shown when the rebels got him, this was shown by the fact he had to flee Tripoli.

 

GOOGOOYOU

6:55 PM ET

February 10, 2012

actually, where was the proof

actually, where was the proof ghadaffi unleashed a great anything in response to the uprising? The UNSCR was for the "belief" Ghadaffi would respond harshly, but it was never shown or proven that he did.

 

SHEIKHMS60

8:33 PM ET

January 23, 2012

Taking Credit for Good that u haven't done

To SHAMELESS Americans commenting here,an advice from me.............PLEASE STOP TAKING CREDIT FOR GOOD THINGS HAPPENING AROUND THE WORLD WHEN INFACT YOUR WARMONGERING NATION IS DESTROYING THE LIVES OF MILLIONS AND DEVASTATING THEIR COUNTRIES........You murderers and your country is responsible for many if not most of the geo-political problems facing this world today and it is astonishing to see that America and its insensitive MURDEROUS citizens showing ARROGANCE inspite of knowing that they are killing and looting the happiness of millions in the middle east and elsewhere........Show some remorse nerds!

 

GOOGOOYOU

7:08 PM ET

January 24, 2012

I suppose...

I suppose the reason all these people around the world, who write banners and signs in English rather than their local language, are doing so for their own benefit? The fact is, America doesn't need to take credit for what is happening in the world, because the rest of the world still looks to America. That isn't arrogance, it is simply a fact.

 

GONZOV

6:23 AM ET

January 25, 2012

Really?

Wow, I'm wow. Thats just about the most ignorant thing I've heard all day. So you really think whenever you see a sign in English it's cos they speak to the Americans? You would think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, they are speaking to the WORLD COMMUNITY?

Your way of reasoning is crippled.

 

GOOGOOYOU

6:51 PM ET

February 10, 2012

Um, yes, they are speaking to

Um, yes, they are speaking to the US when they write signs in English. Do you think they are writing the signs in Chinese or Russian? No. They are writing signs in English, because of the US.

 

SHEIKHMS60

8:33 PM ET

January 23, 2012

Your arrogance and

Your arrogance and ignorance(of the damage u guys have done to innocent nations and their people BASED ON LIES you invented) ofcourse STINK!

 

DELTA22

10:34 PM ET

January 23, 2012

-

The neoconservative legacy unfortunately, is always going to be Iraq. It's one thing to promote democracy, which is without doubt a good thing, but to wage pre-emptive war over it? Not only did we throw away the principle of war as a last resort and our moral legitimacy along with it, but we went into a region whose population heavily distrusts the West. The latter resulted in an insurgency that cost thousands of Americans and Iraqis their lives. There's a reason that we're not intervening in Syria now, it's because as bad as things are right now, ordinary Syrians aren't likely to accept the legitimacy of an American or NATO-led intervention. Libya was different, but that seems to be the exception where a dictator used such naked brutality that Libyans were willing to accept outside help.

 

GOOGOOYOU

7:12 PM ET

January 24, 2012

exceptions here, exceptions

exceptions here, exceptions there. You can always find an exception. Libya was pre-emption. Serbia was pre-emption. I'm not sure your definition of naked brutality, since it is clear that the Assad regime has engaged in more naked brutality than was proven this past year against Qadaffi.

 

TIMING

8:29 AM ET

January 24, 2012

philosophically right, practically, we'll see

for the sheikh- if you're angry, blame the russians..they have done more to retard your socieities than anyone else. America was a force for good that YOU disregarded...sorry- you are casting blame on the wrong nation.

as for sin nombre saying america should just totally be absent from any global involvements is just pure naivetee. sorry pals, being a superpower is a little more complicated than your ..ahem, geopolitical understanding.......

 

TIMING

8:39 AM ET

January 24, 2012

Hey sin...one more thing

just because bin laden or other thugs and terrorists from the ME want to use extortion and violence destroy israel doesn't make it wrong for america to defend her. So yes, you are right that the arabs hate america for its support of israel, (and for many other things) but that doesn't mean they are right. Deending that line of thought only proves how well the arab narrative and policy of extortion has become.

By the way, many many countries support israel based on truth, facts, history, morality, etc..etc...just because the arabs have lied over and over about the facts as they really are in the region, doesnt make their position in any way truthful. Or should american just give in to lies and extortion and throw israel to the wolves? Would that be something peace loving liberals would be ok with? Is that your answer?

maybe you would like to give us all an idea of how your peace plan goes??? If you can get the arabs to be serious about recognizing israel as the sovereign jewish nation state, I am all ears...and dont give me that BS arab peace plan from 2002 that was a take it or leave it plan full of holes big enough to drive a suicide bombers brigade through.....

 

SHEIKHMS60

12:29 PM ET

January 24, 2012

stop taking drugs

stop taking drugs

 

SPOOD

2:12 PM ET

January 24, 2012

Wow, such a typical response

In other words Sheikyourbootie you don't actually have a response based on your own thoughts or outside of canned claptrap.

As for Sin Nombre, its still amazing what you have to ignore to support your POV. Its telling that the only form of dissent allowed in the autocratic Arab world is against Israel and the West. There are no free newspapers or broadcasters in the region but thousands of Islamicist madrassas. It tells you which ideal it considers a greater threat to the regime

Islamicism has always had the tacit support of the dictators in the region, even the secular ones. It provides an outside conflict to ship off their angry youth and avoid internal revolt. The only reason the Muslim Brotherhood existed in Egypt for so long was that it was great in driving democratic minded moderates away and was never a real threat to the regime. Even at Tahir Square, they were the "Johnny Come-lateleys"

No Arab country really gives a flying f---- about the Palestinians and some of the states even engaged in mass slaughter of them (more Palestinians died in "Black September" than in 45 years of Israel occupation, yet nobody bothers to mention it).

In the past Arab states were urging their angry youth to get killed fighting Israel in the Palestinian areas, The Soviets in Afghanistan, then Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Iraq and Afghanistan again. The arab world's second biggest export seems to be jihadi violence.

One thing the Neocons understood (but never really followed up on) was the notion that dictatorship was a major factor in the support of international terrorism. Islamicism was only popular because it was the only thing that gave the appearance of dissent. It was thoroughly co-opted.

However, once the angry youth stopped following the urge to fight in government sponsored jihad (The Iraq War thinned that crowd out considerably), they started looking inward. Towards real dissent.

 

CHASVOICE

8:51 AM ET

January 24, 2012

Is your candidate for president a Neoconservative?

What’s a Neoconservative?

http://chasvoice.blogspot.com/2012/01/whats-neoconservative.html

 

F1FAN

9:16 AM ET

January 24, 2012

What Mr. Abrams seems to forget

Is that President Bush and the 'Neocons' were the very people that staunchly supported and empowered Hosni Mubaraek and other dictators as well. President Bush and President Obama only give lip service to supporting democracy but do little to promote it. The United States penchant for supporting dictators because they are 'strong on terror' (read; their political enemies) puts the United States on the wrong side of history in the Arab Spring.

The sooner Mr. Abrams and America admit that the Arab Spring if it succeeds will succeed despite America's policies in the Middle East not because of, the better off we will be.

Let's just ask Iraq how well democracy building worked?

 

BOONSTRA

9:59 AM ET

January 24, 2012

yup

this is very, unfortunately true. But I don't think Abrams was arguing that the U.S. caused the Arab Spring, was he? He was just describing American attitudes and responses.

 

BOONSTRA

9:56 AM ET

January 24, 2012

I thought you were about to

I thought you were about to argue that the war in Iraq really did turn the country into a "beacon of democracy" like the neocons imagined, and that THAT was responsible for the Arab Spring. I would have had a few issues with that. lol

But with this I could not agree more: "the sour 'analysis' that the Arab revolts will lead only, inevitably, and permanently to disaster is based in neither experience nor scholarship."

In fact, who is making that analysis?? It's pretty ridiculous.

 

CITICRAB

9:26 PM ET

January 24, 2012

Yes, Democracy

I thought you were about to argue that the war in Iraq really did turn the country into a "beacon of democracy" like the neocons imagined, and that THAT was responsible for the Arab Spring. I would have had a few issues with that. lol

In fact, yes, Iraq - and the world - is immeasurably better off today than under Saddam - whatever metrics you use. Speaking of democracy, it is it, only a very immature one. But it will take a miracle for this artificially constructed country to reform fast. Anyway there is free press, free electronic media, lack of censorship, a semblance of civil society, and relatively free enterprise - all unprecedented as an Arab country (the small Gulf nations are mostly free, economically.)

It is also much safer for its citizens than under Saddam (way safer than Mexico.) If it grows fast enough, there is a good chance the two opposing groups will find some modicum of coexistence. Then a new Bush Avenue in Baghdad (as in Tbilisi, and probably in Eastern Europe and/or the Baltics) may yet be in the offing.

 

AUGUST WEST

10:08 AM ET

January 24, 2012

 

TRUEMOON

4:20 PM ET

January 24, 2012

yes

Being a convict does not necessarily disqualify a person's opinions, the nature of the crime is important. Mr. Abrams was not stealing bread to feed his family or denouncing a dictator. Mr. Abrams plead guilty to two counts of withholding information from the US Congress - while he was actively serving in government - to cover up the fact that his efforts were supporting the Iranian regime and the Contra rebels.

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/summpros.htm

Elliott Abrams -- Pleaded guilty October 7, 1991, to two misdemeanor charges of withholding information from Congress about secret government efforts to support the Nicaraguan contra rebels during a ban on such aid. U.S. District Chief Judge Aubrey E. Robinson, Jr., sentenced Abrams November 15, 1991, to two years probation and 100 hours community service. Abrams was pardoned December 24, 1992.

 

CITICRAB

9:00 PM ET

January 24, 2012

felon?

i wish America had more patriot felons like mr. Abrams at that time: the communist dictatorship - supported by the then Congress - would have fallen sooner. Noriega is back, but as a weak shadow of his savage self.

 

AUGUST WEST

9:49 AM ET

January 26, 2012

If he lied to Congress

He'll to anyone.

 

KASSIOUN

10:35 AM ET

January 24, 2012

Physician heel thyself

Interesting take by Mr. Abrams, the neocon of neocons. I am sure he really believes that they were right, as no matter what results from their mistakes, the neocons will always twist the facts to look good. That's how they created the Iraq war and the need to destroy Saddam using false information and fabricated data.

I also like the part about how he reflects on American ideals and principles of freedom and democracy and somehow tries to portray G. Bush like a visionary who wanted to bring freedom and democracy to a backward people. Sigh, if only G. Bush is not the most ridiculed and hated president of this generation and is considered a war criminal. But, even the devil looks good if you put lipstick on him.

Mr. Abrams looks into the Arab world and focuses on Islamist ideologies and issues and tries to frame the history of that region as it is always dominated by this belief. Although the Arab world is dominated by Islamic beliefs, very few nations in the region actually adhere to strict Islamic rules. Apart form countries like Saudi Arabia who exist only because the "Americans" need them to stay as they are, most of the other arab countries are secular. Reigion is respected but does not rule. Poorer and less educated segments of the arab world tend to be more religious but this is typical anywhere else, even in the great American nation.

The reality is, arabs did not move en masse to embrace more religious ideologies until the Americans decided to spread their version of freedom and democracy in the area. By embracing religious ideologies, arabs fell in the trap of American ideologies of racism, bigotry and self interest. Arabs started to differentiate more openly between the various religious groups and entities and as in the great American tradition, dominant religious groups sought more power and control.

You would find it extremely difficult anywahere in the arab world to find any person who can recall how it has become important whether they or their neighbors were of the same religious group until the Americans decided to spread their democracy. The reality is, once the Americans started meddling, in Iran, toppling a democratic Government and replaced it with the Shah, American toppling of the first Syrian democratic Government and replacing it with a dictator, putting Saddam in power in Iraq, helping topple the King of Saudi Arabia in favor of one loyal to the US, and let's not forget who helped gadaffi take power in Libya, and on and on and on....With all this American spreading its version of democracy, which literally translates into putting leaders loyal to american interest in power, the poor, and disinfranchised in the arab world retreated to where they felt represented, their own religious group. Hence what we have today is the result. The Arab spring is a reaction to American meddling and the results arising from the first countries to be liberated are showing this clearly where religious ideologies are coming out on top. And if Mr. Abrams can't believe this is all anti western and specific to anti american ideologies, then watch Libya, Egypt and Tunis and soon watch Yemen, and not long after, Saudi arabia and the rest of the Gulf rulers who will fall one by one, which buy the way is why they formed the GCC. To protect each other and to ensure they remain in power, supported by the Americans.

Mr. Abrams can't see this change in the Arab world because he is focused on the arabs or Islamists and the danger this represents to the American interest in the future. However, in his typical neocon attitude, he can't see the change around him where he lives. The American economy is falling apart, millions are out of work, banks are failing, people are losing their homes and of course wall street is nervous. Occupy wall street is one indication that things are changing for Americans, the reaction by many americans who feel disnfranchised has started creating opposite groups who are forming political camps to force changes in the country. The Tea Party movement is just one of those extremist groups who have risen and are demanding more say, in this great American democracy. While Mr. Abrams is focused on the Arab Spring, he forgot to read his local news, America is broke, economically and socially and will soon experience its own version of the Arab Spring. Were the Neocons right there too Mr. Abrams?

 

SPOOD

2:23 PM ET

January 24, 2012

Islamicism's popularity can be marked on a calendar

Once the Cold War ended, Islamicisim started to become popular in the region among the Arab states.

Prior to the end of the Cold War, the given co-opted dissent for the Arab world was radicalism. The Soviet Union was a major supporter of "The Arab Cause" as a way to attack the US for their support of former colonizers. It started out as nationalist ideologies, then hegemonic ideals (Pan Arabism, OPEC machinations). Far-leftists were freely contributing resources for these autocratic and somewhat reactionary regimes because they were getting funded by Communists.

For Saudi Arabia it can be marked at the time when Iranian terrorists laid siege to Mecca in 1979. A previously feudal nationalist regime suddenly adopted more religious fundamentalists tones to out-Iran Iran. To put their own stamp on Fundamentalism and keep it from becoming a form of Iranian influence.

Once the money dried up from the Communists, the Arab nations needed something to act as the new form of phony co-opted dissent. Islamicism fit the bill nicely.

 

JRACFORR

2:29 PM ET

January 24, 2012

The Arabs will do just as the

The Arabs will do just as the Europeans did when their world collapsed in chaos and confusion. They will embrace their religion even more passionately as was done in Europe's DARK AGES. Mecca like the Vatican will be the focus of their attention as the insecurity and fear multiply .They may follow a different religion but they will react to fear as other human beings do.The coming war with Iran will do nothing to calm their fear and will inspire even more zealots among them. China may ultimately be the winner in this Middle East - European rivalry

 

SOLOMON2

2:49 PM ET

January 24, 2012

What the U.S. can do -

is not buttress the Egyptian government at all. Let it lose credibility because the Islamists can't deliver the services - physical, economic, or otherwise - that the people need.

As government rule breaks down encourage the development of new, local democratic institutions with democratic freedoms. Later these can be coordinated into a federal structure to compete with the weakened and corrupt state. A new, better Egypt may be born if the current one continues to resist reinventing itself.

 

TRUEMOON

4:09 PM ET

January 24, 2012

Elliot Abrams is on Drugs... Again.

The Iraq war retarded the cause of freedom in the Arab world and Bush's freedom agenda led to sham elections whose limited gains were later reversed by authoritarian fiat. In fact, one such Bush backed election - the Hamas victory in Gaza - was actively conspired against by Abrams after the fact, this in turn led to the failed Fatah coup that has split occupied Palestine into Fayyadstan and Gazastan. A Vanity Fair article has the details on that debacle. Elliot Abrams doesn't believe in freedom or democracy, he is a liar and a fraud and those are charges to which Mr. Abrams has plead guilty.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/23/a_forward_strategy_of_freedom

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/summpros.htm

 

URGELT

8:27 PM ET

January 24, 2012

Neocons Taking Credit

Oh, this is rich. A neocon crediting neoconservatism for the Arab Spring?

Empty neocon pro-democratic rhetoric did not inspire the Arab Spring. I think we can credit Wikileaks' disclosure of diplomatic cables, instead; those showed a number of autocrats in a very, very bad light, not to mention showed the US engaged in very antidemocratic behaviors of its own. The leaks did not sit well with the people of several nations; autocrats, who never had much legitimacy anyway, fell.

I call neocon pro-democratic rhetoric "empty" because neocons are happy as clams to promote all sorts of antidemocratic measures: internet censorship akin to that in China, torture, extraordinary rendition, indefinite detention without due process, militarization of police, wholesale spying on Americans, persecution of whistle-blowers while ignoring criminal conduct exposed by those whistle-blowers... well, the list goes on and on. To neocons, the Bill of Rights is tissue paper to be brushed out of the way when inconvenient, not a revered document.

Fomenting democracy in Iraq became a neocon talking point only when we failed to find the WMDs that supposedly justified our invasion. This was the big neocon rhetorical switcheroo: quick, think of a reason to justify what we did! That was the best they could come up with. Nobody was fooled; and neocon lust for oil and neocon eagerness to please defense contractors, the real reasons we invaded Iraq, sure didn't inspire the Arab Spring.

It would be a better world if people who deluded themselves would admit it, rather than spreading their delusions in entirely new directions.

 

CASEY JONES

2:00 AM ET

January 25, 2012

Fiction/Revisionist History

Nothing about the Arab Spring is truly Democratic. Human + Women Rights doesn't exist under Islamic Governments. Tolerance for religions is zilch too. So much for the Arab Spring as something to celebrate. Now Israel faces an unleashed hell from Egypt & the Suez Canal controlled by Islamic Crazies is progress?

Brutal Dictators are repressive but @ least quasi Pro-Western. Now, Israel, oil, & the Suez Canal are in jeopardy. So much for Neo-Con understanding of how the Middle East dynamic works. Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Libya, & Syria are all officially power-vacums with American meddling. That = a stronger Iran-Persian-Shiite Axis.

 

SMILING IDIOT

12:50 PM ET

January 25, 2012

Penetrating insight, as expected from a neocon

Thanks for explaining why Bush did so much to undermine the illegitimate, undemocratic and authoritarian Saudi regime. And why the US never supported Mubarak.

Incidentally, what evidence is there of poverty and social division in Botswana?

 

TOYOTABEDZROCK

1:24 PM ET

January 25, 2012

WTF?

Would you like to suck Bush's cock too?

He said one thing, but then help fund you repression, if you cannot see that your country is going to elect the wrong person and is in for more unrest.

A society must reach the realization on it's own, a type of self awareness before it throws off the repression of it's dictators. Any outside pushing or helping before the point that the population is united would only result in more future trouble, see Iraq.

Sincerely, your friendly Liberal!

 

KINGFELIX

2:17 PM ET

January 25, 2012

Mr Abrams

You are no fool, Mr Abrams, so you will know why it is rather rich that you quote Mr Bush speaking at the 'National Endowment for Democracy', a front organization that has funneled $$$ to support the toppling of popularly elected leaders.

Shame on you, Sir.

 

TIMING

12:10 AM ET

January 26, 2012

sin buddy

as I see it, america has always stood for and by the good countries of the world...its a moral thing sin......they also have energy and other geopolitical realities in the world...your naivetee is something I am just not at ease with. I think people with your line of thought are a danger to israel AND to global stability. The fact is, israel and the US are intertwined.. also, american soldiers have NEVER dies for isreal. That is a total fantasy.

Question for you....say israel was not israel but the land ...the location was an actually another american state like say hawaii or something....would you feel obliged to protect it? of course you would. America and their support of israel are not the problem....russia and their support for terrorists and mullocracies IS the problem....russia and their monopolistic energy aspirations ARE the problem...

start assigning blame where it really belongs, not where extortionists tell you it belongs.

 

TIMING

12:11 PM ET

January 26, 2012

arghhh, so much rambling from you sin

so much misrepresentation and revisionism...in short, the US is not "meddling" as you put it...they are supporting an ally. Israel is neither an apartheid state(that has been totally debunked by most scholars and former president carter himself says they are NOT an apartheid state, nor are they a state that ethnically cleanses...20% of their population is arab israeli and those that left did so for the most part, voluntarily, at the behest of the mufti who as you know was a rabid jew hater. do some reading will ya sin?

You're argument is so disingenuous ....as if only israel were left alone without support of the US it would have come to "compromise" long ago which would have insured peace...WRONG. The arabs are not now nor have ever been interested in any compromise. Its amazing how you seemingly pull your theories out of your butthole. I'm sorry, but its quite clear that you just dont get why allies support one another and that sometimes, no matter what outside forces use all manner of extortion to attempt to cleave away allies from each other, in some cases, as in this, morally and ethically there is no good argument for doing so. Juast because the arabs have a narrative backed by suicide bombers and ngo's who hate jews, that doesnt mean israels long held position is wrong. Israel is legitimate now and was in history. Is israel like say scotland who is still uinder the yoke of england? not at all....is scotland surrounded by heathens seeking to destroy it daily??? is any other country? I would say, for many reasons, israel is unique and has disproportionately contributed more to the good of mankind than ANY other nation, with the only possible equal being the US. Say what you want, israel has never asked ANY US soldier to fight her battles...never once. If american soldiers die in overseas battles, it is not for or because of israel, it is because as a superpower committed to justice and freedom, thats the price you have to pay! playing the ostrich wont make the world safer...that is just such short term thinking. your so called blood and treasure trope is a nasty invention from liberal dems and anti's like walt who have been pushing this canard curiously at a fever pitch since obama took office.

Israel along with many other nations deserve the support of nations who are truly enlightened, free, believe in human rights, and justice. And dont squak to me about the so called occupied territories...because as you know my good friend sin, the PLO, which is and was a terrorist LIBERATION group, was established in 1964, 3 yrs PRIOR to there being any so called occupied(disputed) territory. Tell me sin, if the obstacle to peace today are the settlements, then what was the PLO established to liberate in 1964??? you can also tell me why prior to 1967 there was NO intifada, no Palestinian drive for a national homeland consisting of the WB or gaza, both if which were controlled by jordan, formerly tansjordan and egypt. So why was there no intifada then? when you strip away all of your false and rather manipulative misrepresentations, your arguments actually hold NO water whatsoever.

 

TIMING

12:01 PM ET

January 27, 2012

Sin my friend, nice to chat again

yes the mufti was a raving lunatic jew hater...unlike you however,

 

TIMING

12:21 PM ET

January 27, 2012

As I was saying lol...

however, unlike you, I dont see the larger arab muslim world accepting israels legitimate right to exist. Of course you point to the saudi peace plan and say that israel never even responded to it...which you should know full well is a misrepresentation of the truth...the saudi initiative came with a proviso....it was not a negotiation, it was a take it or leave it PR stunt. Nothing more. There were too many by design LARGE trapdoor holes for any sensible nation to accept outright... so let's stop with that fiction, ok?

Per your notion that there are 2 solutions; either a one state solution(which will never happen on both sides), and apartheid, which im sure you know, is sensationalistic hyperbole. Israel is a democracy and all its people get the right to vote, to express, to learn, teach, become doctors, lawyers, run for office, etc...if the pals want a state, they have to do several things, which to this point, they are unwilling to do...and this is to say nothing of hamas...

you see sin, the good cop bad cop thing the pals play with fatah and hamas is maybe imperceptable to western eyes, but it is not to israeli eyes. Israel gave back land for peace several times now...israel has made peace, they have uprooted families, they have made sacrifices...and they will again, but ONLY once the palestinians come to the table with real peaceful intent. It means recognizing israel now and forever more as the sovereign and legitimate nation state of the jewish people. It means renouncing all claims to any land beyond what they negotiate in any mutual agreement, it means demilitirizing the pal state and renouncing the refugee right of return. There is no RIGHT of return...there can be agreed to compensation, but there is no RIGHT of return...and that compensation by the way, should include for those jews who were ethnically cleansed of their homes and assets in all arab lands....it must go both ways....

everyone knows what the outline for the peace agreement looks like...but it doesnt help when settlers keep building as much as it doesnt help when abbas says no to land swaps and when he says not one jew will be allowed to live in the new palestinian state. That my friend is called REAL ethnic cleansing...and yet curiously, the quartet and others have very little to say about that. Just as you are cynical, so am I...I am cynical because I just dont see any sincere effort by the pals to come to grips with the fact that israel will always exist and historically has a RIGHT to exist. Surely you know that israel pulled out of gaza and you have seen what happened with that..how do you expect israelis to trust that the same thing wont happen again with the WB? And what about israel leaving southern lebanon in 2000....what happened with that? and what about egypt? israel left the sinai and look what is now happening with that....I can almost guarantee you that it wont end well... you see my friend sin, I would like to think peace can be achieved, but, im afraid to say that my brain tells me that ultimately, no matter what agreement is signed, the larger arab world will always want more and will never stop trying. and yes, 1964, is highly relevant to today.

 

TIMING

3:14 PM ET

January 27, 2012

sin...well said

Now if we could only get people like smokeforbrains and arvay and mcmillan off this site...

the level of jew hate some of these people express is shocking...whats more shocking is that FP allows it...which I believe could get them in a lot of hot water...you see, if they know its taking place, and they do, and they allow the posts to continue, then in fact they are responsible for the dissemination of hate speech under their banner...which surely some of what I read is in fact hate speech...."free speech" is not a license to spread hate. The whole mantra of zio this and world domination that is just so ridiculous...but, incredibly, they actually believe it! which of course is funny because its just so insane...

im still not sure why obama said nothing when abbas said no to any land transfers in the peace agreement when everyone knows land transfers will be a fundamental pillar of any framework, and im also not sure why obama said nothing when abbas said not even 1 jew will be allowed to live in the new palestinian state...it just seems so odd that he says nothing of those very inflammatory comments, one of which is ETHNIC CLEANSING, but only scolds bibi for building apartments in east jerusalem, which in reality, in history, was decidedly a jewish capital for the jews.... Of course, jerusalem will have to be split, but still, jews ought to be able to live ANYWHERE in jerusalem before or after there is a new pal state...same as arabs can and do live in israel inside the green line...and what about incitement? seems the president never says a word about the level of anti semitic incitement that takes place in the palestinian media, curriculum, etc.....its supposed to be one of the steps the pals have to take to lay the groundwork for negotiations but obama never comments on it....and so naturally, israelis tend to see that obama only ever chides them and never says boo to the palestinians transgressions...couple that with the fact that he has yet to visit israel almost 4 yrs since taking office and yet hes been to cairo, ankara and riyahd and rightly so, israelis smell a rat....it seems obama's intention was to attempt to try to use his ally to appease his enemy...and so if he created light between the US and israel he thought (wrongly) that the arabs would come around and play nice...which they havent...all this plan did was backfire and make the palestinians more intractable...which made peace harder to achieve...the things obama has done have not been out of naivetee, nor have they been "mistakes" or "blunders"...they have been conscious decisions that can only be explained as being either anti israel in his heart, or, short sighted in his approach.

 

NASAHNUZU

9:41 AM ET

January 26, 2012

Arab Spring and its future effects

That is exactly wrong, for it was in fact the policy of ignoring gross oppression that helped bring us to the precipice of today's dangers. Bush, after all, was not urging instant remedies; he said democratization was "the concentrated work of panax." He was urging reform, in part because it is usually far safer than revolution. Those who thought "durable authoritarianism" could persist forever have far more to apologize for than Bush, democracy activists, or neocons.

 

BIPLAB

1:34 PM ET

January 26, 2012

Strange!!

Is it really so difficult to understand that Iraq occupation was for OIL and 'Democracy', 'Liberty'? I think the questions should be how to re-build all these countries after these long occupations, bombings and destruction. Iraqi people are not counting on Americans to rebuild them. They kill them. They wanted them out at any cost. So does the people of Afghanistan. A government cares about winning the next election. If American government would have cared about their people so much then so many people will not be angry in America itself about government. And we think they cared about the people of those far away poor countries? Well..
But I think America is behaving very rationally. For its own profit. I think anybody else with so much military power will look for more power. Countries rich in resources or geographically placed in strategic locations will be destroyed or occupied. Then rebuilt! That is the fun part and really profitable one.

 

JANEDAVIS74

2:38 AM ET

January 27, 2012

Kale Chips

"You are no fool, Mr Abrams, so you will know why it is rather rich that you quote Mr Bush speaking at the 'National Endowment for Democracy', a front organization that has funneled $$$ to support the toppling of popularly elected leaders."

I'd rather go eat kale chips than listen to this freedom forward strategy that neglects to fully explain why Bush did so much to undermine the illegitimate, undemocratic and authoritarian Saudi regime. And why the US never supported Mubarak.

 

ALI MANN

5:58 AM ET

February 18, 2012

Israel gave back land for

Israel gave back land for peace several times now...israel has made peace, they have uprooted families, they have made sacrifices...and they will again, but only bet365 once the palestinians come to the table with real peaceful intent. It means recognizing israel now and forever more as the sovereign and legitimate nation state of the jewish people. It means renouncing all claims to any land beyond what they negotiate in any mutual agreement, it means demilitirizing the pal state and renouncing the refugee right of return.

 

CHASVOICE

6:27 PM ET

February 24, 2012

US Congressmen & Hillary Clinton Broker Deal to Steal $500 Milli

And, of course the real story about Hillary you're not being told:

http://chasvoice.blogspot.com/2012/02/us-congressmen-hillary-clinton-broker.html