The awesome emptiness of Afghanistan has never had any use to foreign invaders and it's historical records are free of exaggerations over this fact. McChrystal almost went mutinous trying to nation build a country that has no middle class, and where it's people are largely rural. Whether Uncle sam deems the whole affair as a loss is not something that bothers Karzai. His government from time to time, has been able to easily wrap up it's belongings and move back to Kabul when the going gets tough in the provinces and i suggest Uncle Sam should emulate him to save us more blood and money.

"the West can afford to fail in Afghanistan"
vs.
"we have an obligation to do what we can"
vs.
"Let us not ... abandon Afghanistan"

And all of these are just on the third page. Talk about equivocating...
I mean, should we or shouldn't we?

Look. If we get out, the Pakis take over - plain and simple.
They return it to the way things were on 9/11. They move terrorist camps there just like things were on 9/11. They had troops on the ground as far north in Afghanistan as Kunduz. They spent ALL NITE evacuating them with when NATO troops showed up there.
Back then, they denied having terrorist camps on their territory coz they knew they were running them in Afghanistan.
Today they can't insult our intelligence that blatantly so they just say that they WON'T.

And of course, we should be cool with that! Coz you know what, its just groovy, man!!! What we can't see can't hurt us...

US has nobody to blame but itself for the coming Afghan debacle.

US knew about Pakistani State’s terrorist connections. That is why Richard Armitage was able to threaten Musharraf with bombing Pakistan to stone age if Musharraf refused to join US fight against terrorism.

US also knew about Pakistani State’s duplicity - Pakistani State was running with Al Qaeda’s and Taliban’s terrorists while hunting with the American hounds. But US deliberately ignored that Pakistani double game. So US deserved to be duped by Pakistan. Poor Afghanistan is and will be paying the price for US willingly ignoring Pakistani duplicity.

The Pakistani Army is convinced that history beckons it now; that its moment in Afghanistan has arrived, that its success there is directly proportional to American withdrawal. And they may not be wrong in that assessment.
There was a time after the USSR ’s withdrawal from Afghanistan when the average Pakistani truly believed that it was responsible for the defeat and subsequent disintegration of a superpower. For that reason Pakistan’s Prime Minister of the time, Mr Nawaz Sharif, was often called ‘Fateh Kabul’, the vanquisher of Kabul . As and when America pulls out its troops, largely or completely, from Afghanistan, the people of Pakistan might take it as the final proof that they are directly, or indirectly, responsible for the defeat of two superpowers and their eventual decline.

The irony of the US-Pakistan relationship is that the US may set the agenda, but Pakistan invariably maneuvers the results. Despite an outward show of compliance, Pakistan is the decisive factor in this relationship. As the neck is to a face, Pakistan has invariably determined the direction in which America should turn. The latest case in point is Hillary Clinton’s visit to Pakistan in October, 2011. She had gone there accompanied by the defense and intelligence brass on a mission to force compliance, but Pakistani Generals stared them down.

Pakistan has been successful - of producing cadre of terror as in a hatchery, of funding them, of selecting targets for them to attack, of nuclear proliferation and of running drugs internationally. Whenever the international society has confronted it with evidence of its complicity, it talks its way out brazenly.

Iraq was bombed mercilessly for far less and Muammar Gadaffi consigned to brutal death for reasons that remain opaque. Now Iran is on watch for its supposed nuclear status. But Pakistan manages consistently to escape censure. It has crossed and re-crossed the nuclear Rubicon at will, it has broken almost every norm of diplomatic behavior, and it stonewalls all queries about the misdoings of its ISI. Yet it faces no opprobrium.

The question that the international community often asks itself is this: How is it that Pakistan is able to get away with being dangerous to the rest of the world? Its footprint is clearly linked to terror strikes in most parts of the world. As former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said, “Seventy per cent of terror plots in the UK have their source in Pakistan .”

With an ally like Pakistan , US really did not need an enemy to lose in Afghanistan.

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As it has been said by many about Afghanistan, Pakistan will come back to fill the place vacated by the US.

The world would go back to where it was before 9/11, with Taliban taking over Afghanistan once again with the help of their backers in Pakistan.

Most regrettable part of the whole thing is, Pakistan will do what it will do with American help, the tens of billions provided to Pakistan in the name of fighting terror ........... !!

Didn't these two form the punchline of an old Mussolini joke on switching uniforms?

Leon is way less conventional than David, ask anyone who doesn't just throw together research from a library, but the gargantuan turnover rate of operators who left to become consultants and contractors for the private industry. David's success is that of Hitler in 1946, he didn't win a war though people, and for all the wrong, right wing, nazi like reasons worship him as if he did. David's troops in some diasporan move to reality, quit in droves.

Leon hasn't spoke enough, that's his only weakness under our form of politics. It proves one thing and this is where he differs from the gentleman he switched coats and boots with, Leon is not a bullshit artist.

Afghanistan has been called "Graveyard of Empires" and books have been written about it and there are numerous studies on history of Afghanistan conflicts, for a reason. While I don't agree we should tuck and run, we need to swallow our pride and let the tribes and Afghans run their country. We've never went into Afghanistan or Iraq with a clear strategy, and while war is dynamic, we failed to adapt.

The US is leaving Afghanistan at the end of 2014. As much as I hate to give any credit to Stupidity of Defense Losing Pinhead, his plan to reduce US combat roles in the middle of 2013 is the correct path. We have 3 years to train the Afghan army, but we must evaluate their ability to fight before we leave. Therefore, we should work hard at training the Afghan army for 18 months and let them take the lead for the remaining 18 months so we can evaluate their performance, see what needs improvement, and focus additional training on those deficiencies. Having said that, I think they are going to lose in the end, but we should do our best whatever outcome they choose for themselves after we leave in 2014. They may surprise everybody.

In front of all the power in the world and all mighty of the western world USA is not wining in Afghanistan because of Pakistan.... did Pakistan asked to make Taliban? are al Qaeda made of Pakistanis or they are Arabs.... Pakistan was not asked but threaten to go on war and help USA and Pakistani govt have handed over Pakistani citizens to USA has lost thousands of army personal and have lost 45,000 plus Pakistanis life for this war on terror.

Pakistan has lost everything in this war peace in the country families who has lost there loved ones. where these so called Taliban's or la Qaeda have blown bobs in every cities of Pakistan killing many and destroying many lives just because Pakistan is helping USA.

and the money was not just given to Pakistan it was remembered for the cost fight for USA and if there was aid given it went in ruling people pockets.

there are estimated thousands of american spy's and contract kills in Pakistan and there whereabouts are unaccounted-for carrying there respected jobs.

drone attacks on Pakistani cities killing thousands of lives. using Pakistani airbases and not to mention Thousands of NATO trucks which don't pay any road tax and destroying roads.

well we cant change our past but build our future now USA has come to its senses and has start talks with Taliban in Qatar which it should have done after 9/11 but how will many people would have made money out of it.

i have many American friends and im very sure American people are not stupid as American media and govt think they are they know everything regardless how misinformation they will give out to them about other nation in the world how big monster they paint they know all the games and now they will say yes we are powerful but lets not bully others.

Power does not mean that we can threaten others or bully it comes with irresponsibility now Talking with Taliban means USA has a big heart and a brain. and talking is the only thing they should also do with Iran.

Please don't let Media and govt make Pakistan it's Scapegoat of the U.S. in Afghanistan

here are few things i learned from my FOI class

c. Defense mechanism – designed to protect organisms, to help alleviate guilt, to cope, and to protect the ego. These can be helpful or harmful
i. Compensation – shows a strength in another area to offset a perceived weakness
ii. Projection – blames others for their failures
iii. Rationalization – trying to justify actions that would otherwise be acceptable
iv. Denial of Reality – refuse to admit the severity of an issue
v. Reaction Formation – make a fake belief because the true belief causes too much anxiety
vi. Flight (fantasy) – day dream to escape reality
vii. Resignation – give up
viii. Aggression – repress emotions, become hostile

Best Wish's to American friends.

@ CAPT.FAHAD,

Pakistan is not a "Scapegoat", it is a partner in crime that has also played a double game too duped it partner.

Pakistanis like yourself are now crying hoarse that Pakistan has paid a heavy price for being a partner in crime, and therefore deserves special treatment. Well no Sir, after pocketing the tens of billions of dollars in the name of fighting terror, while actually supporting its own terrorist surrogates, Pakistan does not deserve an iota of sympathy ............ !

Pakistan is paying, and must pay the price for its sponsorship of terror and using terror as instrument of foreign policy. It is not something of a favour that Pakistan is doing to the wrold, but paying for its own misdeeds ...... !

During 9/11 Boy George was reading "My Pet Goat" to children, while Dead-Man-Walking Cheney was was at the scene of the crime (in the White House bunker) conducting scheduled, simulated war-games to fool NORAD and the FAA into standing down. Isn't it time we put these guys on trial for treason and mass murder?

The worst case scenario in Afghanistan wouldn't be the Taliban marching triumphantly into Kabul. There's a hard cap on what they can accomplish, and that limit is the ethnic divide between the Pashtuns in the sountheast and the rest of Afghans in the northwest. The Pashtuns seem to prefer the Taliban anyway, while the northerners hate them with a passion. If a de facto partition of the country is what they can live with, then perhaps so can we.

With the failure of our US military adventure in Afghanistan, it looks like Conoco wont be able to build its gas pipeline through that country after all. Oh well, the American oil empire cannot be expected to win every time.

... and his Washington playmates don't approve of that. None of the clarififcations or criticisms Mr Traub quotes denies the truth of Panetta's mention of 2013. They'd just like everybody else to pay no attention.

eparately, I question the blithe foolishness at the head of this article: "The only thing now is to make sure that the retreat is not a total disaster for those we leave behind."

Make sure? How? Accepting two or three million Afghan refugees into the US might do it. Hard to think of anything else.

"Civilians can scarcely understand or even believe that many ambitious military professionals truly yearn for wars and the opportunities for glory and distinction afforded only in combat. A career of peacetime duty is a dull and frustrating prospect for the normal regular officer to contemplate.... Wars and emergencies put the military and their leaders on the front pages and give status and prestige to the professionals. Wars add to the military traditions, the self-nourishment of heroic deeds, and provide a new crop of military leaders who become the rededicated disciples of the code of service and military action. Being recognized public figures in a nation always seeking folk heroes, the military leaders have been largely exempt from the criticism experienced by the more plebeian politician. Flag officers are considered 'experts,' and their views are often accepted by the press and Congress as the gospel.... Standing closely behind these leaders, encouraging and prompting them, are the rich and powerful defense industries. Standing in front, adorned with service caps, ribbons, and lapel emblems, is a nation of veterans -- patriotic, belligerent, romantic, and well intentioned, finding a certain sublimation and excitement in their country’s latest military venture." --David Shoup, former Commandant of the Marine Corps and member of the Joints Chiefs of Staff, The Atlantic, "The New American Militarism," April 1969

@NEEL288 you sound like extremists....

When, in 2002 the discussion turned to "rebuilding afghanistan", I realized that official policy was out of touch with reality. That concept is about as sensical as "rebuilding the moon".

What will happen is that the Indians and the Pakis will use Afghanistan as a battleground for their proxy war. The concept of solving the core problem in the region was tossed out the window when the special Presidential envoy for Afghanistan/Pakistan was prevented from dealing with the Indo/Pak conflict.

Gosh, why does Pakistan matter? Because they have nukes.
Why do they have nukes? Because of their mostly cold war with India.

Solve the India/Pakistani problem and that will deflate the pressure on the other conflicts in the region. Solve the Indo/Pak problem and the development needs of the Pakistani people won't be subverted by the tremendious cost associated with expanding and maintaining the Pakistani nuclear arsenal.

Pakistan has lost everything in this war peace in the country families who has lost there loved ones. where these porno so called Taliban's or la Qaeda have blown bobs in every cities of Pakistan killing many and destroying many lives just because Pakistan is helping USA.