Save Us from the Liberal Hawks

Syria's a tragedy. But it's not our problem.

BY DAVID RIEFF | FEBRUARY 13, 2012

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of (humanitarian) war. That, at least, is what much of the U.S. policy elite seems to be pushing for these days in Syria. That many of the "permahawks," like Fouad Ajami, Max Boot, and Elliott Abrams, who championed the George W. Bush administration's decision to overthrow Saddam Hussein, are now calling for supporting the uprising against Bashar al-Assad's dictatorship should come as no surprise to anyone. Nor should similar calls from most of the liberal writers and editors associated with the New Republic magazine come as a shock. They, too, have been remarkably consistent, and the magazine's current symposium on what needs to be done next in Syria is eerily reminiscent of the one it ran the year after the invasion of Iraq, which tilted so lopsidedly toward justifying the war, though not the way the Bush administration was prosecuting it.

What is surprising, though, is that despite the disaster of Iraq, looming withdrawal in what will amount to defeat in Afghanistan, and, to put it charitably, the ambiguous result of the U.N.-sanctioned, NATO-led, and Qatari-financed intervention that brought down Muammar al-Qaddafi's regime, is how nearly complete the consensus for strong action has been even among less hawkish liberals, whether what is done takes the form of the United States and its NATO allies arming the Free Syrian Army, opening so-called humanitarian corridors, or encouraging Turkey and a coalition of the willing within the Arab League to do so. British columnist Jonathan Freedland summed up this view when he wrote recently in the Guardian that the West must not "make the people of Homs pay the price for the mistake we made in Baghdad."

In reality, though, liberal interventionists were never as shaken by the lessons of Iraq as was commonly supposed. Anyone doubting this need only look at the extraordinary mobilization for some sort of humanitarian and human rights-based intervention in Darfur in 2005 and 2006. This movement included a number of figures who now occupy important positions in Barack Obama's administration, notably Susan Rice, now U.S. permanent representative to the United Nations, and Samantha Power, now senior director for multilateral affairs at the National Security Council, and who are generally assumed to have played an important role (if not quite the central one sometimes attributed to them) in persuading Obama to intervene in Libya. Nothing is wrong with intervention, it seems (just as there is nothing wrong with drone strikes), just as long as it is done by good U.N.-loving, multilateralism-oriented Democrats from the coasts, rather than by ignorant, war-worshipping, vulgarly nationalistic Republicans from flyover country.

If anything, liberal interventionists now seem to feel they have the wind at their backs because of the acceptance by the United Nations of the so-called "responsibility to protect" (R2P) doctrine, which has been widely touted -- including by many of the most important human rights organizations that are often at odds with U.S. government policy (notably Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, and some of their most important funders, notably George Soros's Open Society Foundations network) -- as resolving many of the ethical and operational problems that accompanied previous iterations of humanitarian intervention. In the words of Professor Anne-Marie Slaughter of Princeton University, who, until last year, was head of policy planning at the U.S. State Department, "R2P is a foundation for increased peace and respect for human rights over the long term, [and] each time it is invoked successfully to authorize the prevention of genocide, crimes against humanity, grave and systematic war crimes, and ethnic cleansing as much as the protection of civilians from such atrocities once they are occurring, it becomes a stronger deterrent against the commission of those acts in the first place."

Like so many of the fundamental assumptions of the human rights movement, there is something quasi-religious about all this. Writing recently on this site, Gareth Evans, the former Australian foreign minister who is one of the principal intellectual and institutional architects of R2P, argued that over the past decade there is "universal agreement that state sovereignty is not a license to kill." He concedes that the Russian and Chinese veto of the Security Council's Syria resolution demonstrates that "for every two steps forward on R2P there is usually a step back" -- but Evans quickly dispenses with this caveat. He quotes U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, noting that henceforth the global debate will be about "how, not whether, to implement the responsibility to protect."

Welcome to the "End of History," human-rights style. Like Francis Fukuyama's famous argument, there is simply no basis other than our hopes and our preferences to make us think that though the road toward this radiant future, to use the old Soviet expression, will be neither straight nor smooth, nevertheless it only goes one way, and that is in the direction of progress, peace, justice, and rights.

It is this religious quality to the support for R2P that helps account for the odd reaction among those who believe that something must be done to stop the Assad regime's war against much of its own people despite the Russian and Chinese vetoes. Obviously, some of this is purely political posturing. But it is not only spin. The moral outrage, however misplaced, is real enough. In her contribution to the New Republic symposium, Suzanne Nossel -- formerly Richard Holbrooke's deputy when he was the U.S. permanent representative to the United Nations, founder of DemocracyArsenal.org, former chief operating officer of Human Rights Watch, and now executive director of the U.S. branch of Amnesty International -- illustrated this faith-based ethical triumphalism perfectly when she insisted that though the Russian and Chinese vetoes of the Security Council resolution had been "a sharp political defeat," it had also represented a "potent moral victory" and a "tectonic shift" in the advancement of a global human rights regime whose victory is now inevitable, no matter what kind of sovereigntist rear-guard actions the Russians and Chinese may continue to mount.

The implication is clear. Three years after the adoption of R2P by the U.N. General Assembly and more than a year after the beginning of the Arab Spring, not only is the Assad regime on the wrong side of history, but the Russians and Chinese are as well. In her New Republic piece, Nossel even goes so far as to imply that the Russians and the Chinese know this themselves. They cast their votes out of fear of this human rights-based future, she writes, claiming that the "bell of international condemnation and isolation tolling now for Damascus sounds an uneasy note in Beijing and Moscow." Even by the hubristic standards of the human rights movement, these are extraordinary claims. One doubts, however, that they will cause either Vladimir Putin or Hu Jintao to quake in his boots as this owl of Minerva flies by, presumably with a copy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights held in its beak.

Beneath all the incantatory bluster, however, a certain nervousness shows through. To judge by the fevered, angry response of U.S., French, and British officials, it seems as if they genuinely believed the Russians and Chinese would be obliged to truckle before the historic inevitability of the human rights revolution. How else to account for the spectacle of Ambassador Rice storming out of the Security Council chamber in fine, old, Khrushchev-era Soviet style once the vetoes had been cast, or her declaration shortly after that Russia and China had held the council "hostage" (one can only wonder how long until those words are thrown back at her the next time the United States vetoes a Security Council resolution on Israel-Palestine, as it has so often in the past).

Safely out of government, Slaughter was able to go further, demanding that the United States and its allies do something to bring the carnage in Syria to an end. Otherwise, she wrote, R2P would be exposed as a "convenient fiction for power politics or oil politics." So convinced is she of the positive value of the responsibility to protect as a force for peace and international security that she seems perfectly willing to envisage an end run around that pesky Security Council veto the Russians and the Chinese had the gall to invoke. To be legitimate, she writes, all that would be required from the United Nations would be the "authorization of a majority of the members of the [Security Council]," as an exercise of R2P, "with clear limits to how and against whom force could be used built into the resolution." Like the iconic U.S. officer in Vietnam who told a reporter that his troops had been obliged to burn the village in order to save it, Slaughter seems to be willing to undermine the structural foundations of international order, which, for better or worse, is based in large measure on the Security Council, in order to further it. Peace is war; war is peace. George Orwell, call your office.

Meanwhile, despite the astonishing propaganda barrage in the media (for once, CNN, the BBC, and Al Jazeera were all on the same page!) that for all intents and purposes endorsed the claims about dead and wounded made by the anti-Assad insurgents (the disclaimers tended to come at paragraph three or four of a print piece, or the tail end of a video segment), the reality on the ground in Syria was far more complicated. A McClatchy news story quoted U.S. government sources as confirming that the recent attack against a Syrian government building in Aleppo had probably been the work of al Qaeda, thus confirming at least to some extent the claims the Assad regime has made about the role of jihadists in the rebellion. Qaddafi made the same claim; it was dismissed at the time, but now appears to have had at least some foundation. In the Syrian case, though, there is no need to trust either Assad or anonymous sources in the U.S. intelligence world, because al Qaeda's support for the uprising has been confirmed publicly by Osama bin Laden's successor, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who, in a recent video, praised the "lions of Syria" for their rebellion. And even if al Qaeda's role is overstated, the degree to which what is going on today in Syria pits Sunnis against Assad's Alawite base was underscored by the early January testimony to the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee by Israeli army chief of staff Benny Gantz, who said the Israel Defense Forces was already making contingency plans to cope with the thousands of Alawites likely to try to flee to Israel should Assad be driven from power.

These nightmare scenarios are anything but far-fetched. What is taking place in Syria may have begun in part as a democratic insurrection, but it has become a low-level (at least for the moment) interconfessional civil war. The last time we got involved in one of those was in Iraq, whose principal legacies, however unintended, are almost certain to be increasing Iranian power and influence -- and setting the stage for the disappearance of Christianity in one of its most ancient homelands. There is simply no reason to believe that things in Syria will turn out any better and at least some reason to assume that the result will be even worse. But in the brave new world of R2P, this does not seem to matter very much to a born-again liberal interventionism eager to flex its muscles.

During the Bush administration, Democrats often boasted that -- unlike the president and his aides, who were consumed by millenarian dreams of remaking the Middle East in the image of American democracy -- they were part of the "reality-based community." In fact, the neoconservatives were paragons of modesty compared with the liberal interventionists and R2P supporters who saw in Libya and now see in Syria the chance to move one step closer to remaking the world in the image of the human rights movement. Infatuated by their own good intentions -- and persuaded that their interventionist views incarnate a higher morality -- those who view Libya as a triumph and Syria as an opportunity to cement the practice of humanitarian intervention are in full crusading mode. If the looming victory of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the failure of the democratic project in Iraq, and the fact that the most significant political outcomes of the Arab Spring in Egypt, Yemen, and Libya have been instability and the victory of political Islam have not chastened them -- and clearly they haven't -- nothing will. Welcome to the second decade in a row of humanitarian war.

LEON NEAL/AFP/Getty Images

 

David Rieff is the author, most recently, of Against Remembrance, a critique of political memory. He is completing a book on the global food crisis.

FAIR AND BALANCED FREDRICO

6:03 PM ET

February 13, 2012

Right-wing appeasement

Just as most of the appeasers of Hitler in the US Congress back in the 1930s were Republicans, so today are today's appeasers of Assad.

 

YEAHWHAT

7:35 PM ET

February 13, 2012

In what meaningful way is

In what meaningful way is Assad being "appeased?" Appeasement in the 1930's didn't mean not intervening in German affairs; it meant tolerating Hitler's aggression against other countries.

Assad is monstrous, but his regime doesn't have anything like the industrial and military strength of the Third Reich.

Unfortunate comparison, bud :(

 

EGYPT STEVE

11:49 AM ET

February 15, 2012

You're missing the point

Basically, to not kill Arabs is to "appease" them. That is what TNR and the liberal hawks are all about. Remember Tom "Suck on this" Friedman?

 

PHILBEST

11:49 PM ET

February 17, 2012

European ingratitude and US isolationism

Fredrico, I am a rare example of a non-American who actually appreciates America's role as world's policeman. But I marvel at just how much America puts up with repeated ingratitude for it. The 1930's isolationists were justified in "leaving the ingrate Europeans to suffer the consequences". Isolationists today have even more basis for an attitude like this. Have you not noted how hating America is the world's favourite sport? There is a book by John Gibson with this title. One of the chapters is entitled "The Germans are overjoyed: at last somebody else is Hitler".

 

NIK CARVERHILL

6:44 PM ET

February 13, 2012

Self-Indicting Article

I was appalled after reading this article. The claims that are made are assertive and fallacious. Making parallels with both Iraq and Afghanistan are inaccurate insofar as that the doctrine of R2P is not one based on implementing democracy (as was the case in Iraq and Afghanistan) but to remove dictators.

The initial invasion of Iraq was swift and successful, and a detracted insurgency was a subsequent problem. Pointing out that the imposition of Western democracy is problematic is in no way an argument against humanitarian intervention.

 

YEAHWHAT

7:37 PM ET

February 13, 2012

You Clearly Don't Know Anything About Syria

What happens after we topple Assad, then? You don't think the Sunni majority will want revenge of some kind against the Alawites (and perhaps even the Assyrian Christians)? Is Syria simply destined to become Happy Land if we remove Assad?

 

ILOVEKNOWLEDGE

7:33 PM ET

February 13, 2012

An appeaser to evil..

The author demonstrates his lack of logic and rationality by taking Assad's thugs and his supporters at face value by blaming an attack in Syria with "Al Qaeda". Could there be a better propagator of Assad's propaganda than this author?

It is the responsibility of the free world to prevent genocide and oppression when such is taking place such as in Syria. As the late Teddy Roosevelt has said, "The pacifist is as surely a traitor to his country and to humanity as is the most brutal wrongdoer."

To close: the great Persian poet Saadi once said centuries ago: "Human beings are members of a whole, In creation of one essence and soul. If one member is afflicted with pain, Other members uneasy will remain. If you have no sympathy for human pain, The name of human you cannot retain."

 

YEAHWHAT

7:40 PM ET

February 13, 2012

and from Saadi's point of view

...our Freedom Bombs are an expression of the "one essence and soul" we share with those we kill? What about their pain?

 

ILOVEKNOWLEDGE

7:47 PM ET

February 13, 2012

Those are..

The people who have been massacring the Syrian people with impunity. It is the action of the free world to stop such massacres. To remain silent, is to lose one's humanity (as is the case of those who claim "it is none of our business").

 

EGYPT STEVE

11:53 AM ET

February 15, 2012

You're missing the point, too.

You can speak with something other than bombs, can't you? There are better ways to rescue people than bombing them. It's not a video-game, pal. Hundreds of thousands of innocents died in Iraq and a sustained "humanitarian intervention" in Syria will be lethal to untold number of the people we are trying to help. And they'll be just as dead, just as maimed, as they would have been if Assad had worked his evil will on them.

War for any reason other than self-defense is a criminal act of aggression. Anyone who advocates it is a sociopath.

 

DELTA22

5:02 AM ET

February 14, 2012

-

I don't find this to be a convincing criticism of humanitarian intervention in general. True, the civil war in Syria is being fought along ethnic lines, but this doesn't mean the outside world should sit back and watch things play out. We can and should employ a whole range of diplomatic means to pressure Assad's allies to abandon him. There's no need to rush to intervene militarily, but if things get extremely ugly that's an option we do have on the table.

 

PEARPANDAS

11:09 AM ET

February 14, 2012

I Agree

There are so many other options that can be used without resorting to the military that should be tried at least in this kind of scenario.

 

WORLDHAVEGONECRAZY

8:12 AM ET

February 14, 2012

David Rieff you are in the

David Rieff you are in the best case a clown and in the worst case an idiot...

So Syria is not your problem, then I guess neither are the over 7000 people dead nor the 400 children killed...nice job!

Your points and oppinions are flawed and your whole argument just sad...even sadder to see FP publishing this piece of trash!

 

SANDHAWK

1:44 PM ET

February 14, 2012

Irony in this situation....

There's in an irony in this situation in which the Arab world increasingly displays anger at Western (particularly US) intervention in the region and then outrage when the West takes it at its word and steps back to let the Arabs sort it out on their own.

Suppose Israel decided to bomb Syrian Army tanks inbound to Homs. Would the Arab League welcome that or would all of Syria suddenly unite in the face of the "Zionist" "threat"?

If you support US/Western (or even US/Western led) intervention in Syria, then you implicitly accept the role of the US as the "police officer" of the world...And vice-versa. Nine years ago, was there not shock when the Bush administration essentially declared the Hussein regime a threat to the region and world and then outrage when it unilaterally invaded on that basis? Why intervene in Syria and not in Iran? (Yes, the Irani government is killing its own people, too, though in smaller quantities and with the good sense to do it in political prisons.)

On the other hand, I have no issue with nations sending arms to the FSA. But there are more - and better - reasons not to intervene than there are to intervene. And not all are found in realpolitik calculus.

If, for instance, the only way the FSA is able to successfully overthrow the Assad regime is through international intervention, isn't the revolution - at its birth - beholden to foreign powers?

The author has a point. Attacking him as an idiot and declaring the argument flawed without explaining why does those who oppose that point no good. (It rather makes his case, in fact.)

 

REKLAMOLOGY

4:19 PM ET

February 14, 2012

Right-wing appeasement

Just as most of the appeasers of Hitler in the US Congress back in the 1930s were Republicans, so google reklam today are today's appeasers of Assad.

 

TERRY BRENNAN

4:25 PM ET

February 14, 2012

Leading from behind seems to work again

There are a number of recent article that Arab countries are preparing to send fighters and weapons to aid the rebels in Syria. Iraqi Sunnis are going. The Arab Leagues has declared that it members should use all political means, explicitly including sending arms. It seems that the US won't have to lead this. Instead the thirst for freedom in the Arab lands is so strong that many Arabs are going to the aid of their brothers.

Is this just Sunni hatred of Alawites? Much of it is, I am sure. I think the result will be bloody, but I think it is the logical outcome of Arab Spring. I think that the US and the West would be foolish to intervene at this point, but because the Arabs will do the job on their own, in their own way.

 

KBC

1:48 AM ET

February 15, 2012

So what was American problem

Iraq winning Kuwait in matter of days. Serbs winning over Bosniaks in Bosnia. Serbs maintaining the rule over Kosovo.

Not a single one would have caused the death of Americans. Americans are paid to be policemen. And how Americans were paid in 9/11.

Help the Syrians and see how they will pay back.

 

MORROWROSANNA78519476@YAHOO.COM

9:40 AM ET

February 15, 2012

adv

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ENIGMA

1:51 PM ET

February 15, 2012

Assad is indefensible. Nobody

Assad is indefensible. Nobody is talking about American boots on the ground here, but something should be done to stop these murderous bastards in Damascus. We should be pushing the Arabs to do the heavy lifting...

 

ALANCHRISTOPHER

5:21 PM ET

February 15, 2012

R2P Interventions

In 2011, we had Libya, and now we have Syria. The former slave owners and Jim Crow enforcers helped the former colonial masters drop bombs on Africans in a former African colony. One good consequence is that China has increased its trade dramatically with Africa because it chose to respect the choices of the Africans. Another good outcome is that the US and NATO blew up US computers, cell phones, digital cameras, and fertilizer, the basic components of smart munitions. The US and NATO burned millions of gallons of NATO gasoline, diesel fuel, and aviation fuel. The US and NATO wasted millions of hours of man hours in unproductive work. China sold the products for profit, used the fuels to mave passengers and cargo for profit, and used man hours to make products to sell. Fortunately, wasting the West's resources will speed the economic decline of the US and NATO, allowing China to grow and prosper to become the dominant superpower.

Now, the US and NATO have the chance to achieve something similar in Syria. The US and NATO can give away all of its borrowed wealth to boldly go deeper into debt than any alliance has ever gone before in its aid to rebels and its apologies to Star Trek. The most likely western plan is a vast improvement over the Libyan Debacle. The West will supply arms to the Syrian rebels, burning millions of gallons of western fuel in transportation and wasting millions of man hours in producing and transporting the arms, but the Syrian rebels will blow up the weapons and munitions instead of US and NATO forces igniting the costly displays of fireworks. While the US and NATO spend themselves into destitution, China will make and sell goods for profit, use fuels to move cargo and passengers for profit, and use their man hours to produce more things to sell. Hopefully, this will be another debacle leading to the ignominious downfall of the West and to the glorious rise of the Communist Party of the People's Republic of China.

 

PULLER58

6:08 PM ET

February 15, 2012

Whose problem?

The reason I see Syria getting a pass is due to the worries over Iran making mischief. iran desperately wants to keep its allies around, and while they can't cure Hugh Chavez's cancer, they certainly can create havoc to save the Assad regime. Don't think the West doesn't know this...

 

MARTIAL

10:39 PM ET

February 15, 2012

Foreign force don't solve domestic disputes.

Show me five examples where foreign force worked. Then say how you will handle a far worse problem, the Congo, using force. If you will not use force (& you'd be a fool to do so) to solve the Congo's far, far worse problems, don't bother with Syria.

People sometimes take leave of their senses on this matter. Dr Zbigniew Brzezinski is one of the wisest realists around. Despite this, he approved of bombing Yugoslavia, an act that went against Nuremberg. We all know this was true. Did this bombing & partition solve everything? NO. Things are still a disaster there.

Could anyone have predicted the partition would be a failure? YES. Evaluate this 1989 map of the region & then draw lines to separate the different ethnic groups:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/1989/items/show/170

Now read this article about "independent" Kosovo
http://www.economist.com/node/8116643

Finally, consider what the wise are requesting, & may well get--a pretty much reunited Yugoslavia!

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2011/06/former-yugoslavia

http://www.economist.com/node/17578918

Bombing the heck out of Yugoslavia did not yield wonderful independent countries. Libya is not paradise. Force will not work in Syria.

 

CATHERINE A. FITZPATRICK

8:59 AM ET

February 17, 2012

Insidious Doctrine

This: ". If the looming victory of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the failure of the democratic project in Iraq, and the fact that the most significant political outcomes of the Arab Spring in Egypt, Yemen, and Libya have been instability and the victory of political Islam have not chastened them -- and clearly they haven't -- nothing will."

Human rights activists have to think of this, and be accountable. They are helping to usher in systems through massive violations and human rights, and these governments then are more massively violate human rights than the previous autocrats. That should pose more of a challenge to the human rights ethos than it does.

RTP is an insidious doctrine as it implies that bad actors will act to protect their own people, which they won't, and that good actors will somehow avoid massive human rights violations in waging war, which they won't or that the results are pretty -- which they have never been.

We should at least wait to see if any of these other situations where we intervened and are losing ever improve before trying it again.

The religiosity of RTP has prompted Ken Roth, director of Human Rights Watch, now to call for us to "nurture the rights-respecting elements of political Islam" as if we can count on such rights-respecting.

The obsession with RTP intervention is preventing us from thinking about other means, such as putting pressure on China and Russia in other ways.

 

SAULPAULUS

12:46 PM ET

February 17, 2012

Missing the Point

One peaceful effort after another has been tried to influence Assad to stop the wholesale slaughter of men, women, and children (and, despite the obfuscations in this article, that is what IS happening). They not only have not worked, but they have only succeeded in influencing Assad to ratchet up the violence.

The next step clearly is a coalition between the US and NATO and Turkey and the Arab League. Perhaps Assad will respond positively to the very real threat of force. If not, then it will be time to act. To do otherwise is to be complicit in the mass murder being carried out every day in Syria by Assad's force.

 

VICTOR THOMPSON

4:11 PM ET

February 17, 2012

Arab Spring and American strategic interests

Arab Spring and American strategic interests
Syria is of much more current strategic importance than Libya.
It meddles in Lebanese affairs, is an obstacle to comprehensive peace between Israel and the Arab world and is one of the few allies of Iran in the Arab world (due to the marginalization of Sunnis in Syrian politics).
So the US has a short term strategic interest in the replacement of Assad with a friendlier regime.
Furthermore, all of the changes in the Arab Spring are in the long term (even if maybe not in the medium term) interest of the US. Full-flegged Democracies have proven to be better allies or at least not enemies of American interests.
Except for Pakistan (which is probably a sui generis case due to its testy relations with its neighbours and its disfunctional relationship with the Pentagon), all other countries that have democratized over the past decades have better relations with Washington and with their neighbors.
Either due to democratic stability or to democratic instability, most countries with free and fair elections have politicians that are too busy dealing with domestic affairs to have time to cause too much trouble abroad. Furthermore no electorate would allow its government to provoke the US. Dictators are more prone to confront the US than elected governments.
Apart from this, the US can engage other countries´ citizens when they are democracies to make them accept, understand or at least know the US point of view. This can´t happen in dictartorships.

 

MCMCMC

6:29 PM ET

February 19, 2012

The US and NATO can give away

The US and NATO can give away all of its borrowed wealth to boldly go deeper into debt than any alliance has ever gone before in its aid to rebels and its apologies to Star Trek. The most likely western plan is a vast improvement over the Libyan Debacle. The West will supply arms to the Syrian rebels, burning millions of gallons of western fuel in transportation and wasting millions of man hours in producing and transporting the arms, sex but the Syrian rebels will blow up the weapons and munitions instead of US and NATO forces igniting the costly displays of fireworks. While the US and NATO spend themselves into destitution, China will make and sell goods for profit, use fuels to move cargo and passengers for profit, and use their man hours to produce more things to sell.

 

KDH

2:24 PM ET

February 20, 2012

Unlike Iraq, it is clear Syrians/Libyans WANT freedom

The Iraq invasion was sought despite the lack of any clear evidence that there was an active movement in Iraq to overthrow Saddam. The push was from the U.S. for its own prevailing interests, not from any grassroots movement really emerging from within the country demanding for change.

In Libya and now Syria there is clear evidence of massive uprisings by the people against their governments that are being effectively repressed through violent and coercive state power. Without assistance from outside groups, it is very likely that such popular uprisings will lack the military and organization strength to effectively overthrow their governments. In such circumstances, carefully pursued outside intervention is acceptable.