Beat me to it. Imagine if someone said "im not sure if all jews want to wreck our nations and trick us to fight their battles while running off with all our money" There would be EXTREME outrage. FP you are a joke

Shimon Perez is the person the Palestinians would love to be negotiating with. He is a major player behind peaceful econimic integration of the Middle East. The man legitimate wants a reasonable peace between both peoples and actually worked to try to achieve it.

Can't say that about any of the "one state" proponents or the people who make excuses for those who fire katushya rockets from schools and hospitals.

He is willing to spell out what a lot of the anti-Israel cheerleaders avoid mentioning:
Iran is paying to keep the Palestinians at each other's throats.

"too bad the arabs are such low lifes"

anti semetic much? you khazars cry when someone directs such bigotry towards you. FP please ban this racist.

"if you had lived his life, you would understand you idiot"

a man who used terror to steal palestinian land and kill and still more land for the next 60 years. what part of his life excuses his rabid open racism towards true semites??

While there are many problems in the middle east, poverty being but one, only one is our essential bane.

For the following reasons it seems to me that the Zionist enterprise has reached its dead end. A few more decades will tell the tale. Israel is in a strategic trap of its own creation. Peace and justice were rejected in favor of ruthless domination. A "master race" based upon false biblical authority. But that cannot last. New wars against Iran, Turkey, Egypt, or repeatedly devastating Lebanon, can only make a bad situation much worse. Everyone know this.

Here is the problem:

No two state solution: it is now foreclosed by forty years of illegal annexations and forced colonization of the West Bank. Look at a map of the "settlements". They seem to be located in such a manner as to make a Palestinian state not viable. Some 500K super ardent Haredi occupy these "settlements" and it is a fantasy that they ever would leave to make the Palestinian state feasible, nor stay in peaceful accomodation with one. Everyone know this too.

No one state solution: Unacceptable. A state unitary, democratic, and non-sectarian with one person one vote confronts the frankly racist thesis of a state dominated by a particular religious or ethnic group.

No sustainable Apartheid solution: The servile condition of the Palestinians in the West Bank, surrounded by vast concrete walls, and forbidden even to drive on the roads upon pain of immediate and non-recourse confiscation of their vehicle, and the worse reality of the unfortunates in the Gaza ghetto, imprisioned for life, cannot endure in the modern world.

See Shulamit Aloni's summation: "Yes, there is Apartheid in Israel" at:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/01/08/yes-there-i...

No "population transfer" solution: Expulsion of millions of Palestinians to Jordan at the point of a bayonet is not feasible.

No military solution: The vast military power of Israel and all its nuclear weapons are useless to resolve this impasse.

Ergo, there is no solution. Dead end. Yes, Israel remains in full control of US policy, but unending war can only in time come to one conclusion. Has it ever in world history been otherwise? The American imprimatur cannot last forever. For my part, I just want America off this bus before it goes over the cliff and takes us with it. And it is NOT "antisemitic" to say so.

How can anyone steal a land from those who never owned it in any legal framework?

In fact, it is the Arabs who stole name "Palestine". Until 1977, they called themselves "Arabs", then took the name "Palestinians".

The same rubbish goes with their claim of "Indigenous people". Yasser Arafat, a leader and the one who came to symbolize their identities - he was born, raised and grew up in Egypt. He carried Egyptian passport.

The same bogus clam of "Palestinian unison". Two different states. A Jordanian (West Bank) & an Egyptian (Gaza). Two different governments and two different set of religious belief.

As Newt Gingrich said it. "Palestinians are invented people. They are Arabs like the rest of them"

Bravo, bravo, Bravo.....

I wanna say exactly THAT,
but my blood's boiling right now. I'm so pi**ed off, I can't even think straight.

I'm in SHOCK.

Is there no reasonable politician left in Israel?
With one foot in the grave, isn't this man afraid of God?
Even a little teeny bit?

Or is Zionism his TRUE RELIGION?

How much longer do they think they can go on like this?

Do they not realize that they're sowing seeds for a future tsunami of regional and Arab hatred, which NO ATOMIC BOMB CAN STOP?

You people dismay me beyond belief.

Nothing that he said was inflammatory. Everything he said was reasonable and even sympathetic towards Arabs.

And this is your response??

"just as the world comes to the historical point of rejecting the idea of ethno-racial purity" - Do you have any idea how many arab-muslim Israeli citizens there are??

You mention that Israel grabbed land in 1967 but you conveniently left out the fact that they 'grabbed' land in response to an attack against them.

I'd love to hear a reasoned disagreement that you have with Israel because neither of you have made a 'reasoned' and BALANCED disargeement.

And none of you give credit where credit is due...he is right, the majority of people in the middle east are living in abject poverty, but Israel is apparently still the big problem according to you guys.

A person interviewed could be the second coming of Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and Jim Henson rolled into one, but as long as they are Israeli, the hatred wil be spewed.

People have a tendency to hate baby killers and racial supremacist

Then how do you look at yourself in the morning?

What's REASONED about continually DISPOSSESSING a people?

And then pretending, that you're really concerned about them, and their neighbors.

And that if they weren't such fanatics, you'd really have no problems.

Well, if he weren't such a fanatic himself, he wouldn't have dispossessed that person in the first place.

I mean, it's not like this Earth had a shortage of lebensraum for people intent on making their own ethno-religious state.

It just HAD TO BE, right there. And they just HAVE TO GO ON, ethnically cleansing, dispossessing the Native Palestinians.....INDEFINITELY.

Meanwhile, it's soooo convenient that they're mostly Moslem, undeveloped and poor.

Makes it just so much easier to "justify" their oppression and dispossession, and fuel-nurture racism and Islamophobia for that purpose.

It never seems to stop. No borders are good enough for this lot. They seem to want more and more. Pretty soon they'll be in "Babylon".

And if that weren't enough, they want to TELL the world WHOM TO BOMB and DESTROY,
when to do it. The WHY doesn't really matter.

IF THEY SAY SO, WE just GOTTA DO IT.

What do you have to say about Peres, Kelime? Absolutely nothing of value

He isn't addressing what you want to talk about or sinking into sloganeering and canned phrases, so you are disappointed. Boo friggin hoo.

Do you have anything to say in response to his answers in the interview? Not at all. Of course not.

All we have for the most part is the generic trolling whenever the subject involves Israel.

LOL. You of all people, as a white christian male should be talking.

Second, disposess the Palestinians? It's funny since they wanted to throw the Jews into the sea in 1948 and 1967. They were damn intent on "dispossessing" the Jews of everything, including their lives. Too bad for them, they lost. And, there are consequences to losing. Boo hoo. Go cry your crocodile tears elsewhere.

QUOTE: "just as the world comes to the historical point of rejecting the idea of ethno-racial purity and etc."

How many Non-Muslims are granted citizenship in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, or Pakistan?. NONE

Heck, Iceland, where no dark skin person is allowed to live there, so not contaminate the Viking race.

The very reason for which there are 192 countries, is to allow human race to live in communities which conform to their own ethno-racial standards, as Israelis do.

In reality there won't be one state solution. Not even 2. Rather 3 states.

State N. Palestine (aka West Bank)
State of S. Palestine (aka Gaza),
State of Israel. already exists.

Quote: "How much longer do they think they can go on like this? "

They will go as long as so-called Palestinians keep their effort to destroy Israel. refuse to accept it as homeland for Jews.

Read PLO's own 1974 10 step phase plan to destroy Israel. Then you will understand why Israelis have decided to spur PLO plan against them.

People also have more tendency to disdain mothers who wrap 22 lb explosives around their own teen ages boys, and send them to explode themselves to pieces, killing other innocent children of their own age.

What type of cultural or religion would allow a monstrous mother to do just that - yet receive honers from her communities. All for what, piece of land?.

Instead of whine and cry - 64 years later. blame and more blame for their own failures. whine and blame game is national pass time for few dysfunctional Arabs & Muslims

Imagine there would not be oil in the ME - where Arabs would have been today?. 4th world countries.

SPOOD wrote:

"Do you think the average arab outside of Israel or the occupied territories gives a damn about the Palestinians?"

Yes, I do, as evidenced at the very least by your own noting of their "sending arms" and etc. to them.

You can't have it both ways.

Otherwise however I think you make a point about anti-Israel sentiment being about the only form of dissent allowable in much of the ME.

Not that it's comprehensive (I doubt you think Israel is really *liked* by the ME street), but it's a good point with some validity no doubt that I didn't think of and should have.

On the other hand, what do you expect of the Arab Spring movement in terms of the different affected regime's attitude towards Israel? Per the implication of what you wrote shouldn't we see, for example, an Egypt as being more indifferent (at least) towards Israel?

That's kinda not what I'm seeing, and while I don't think it's entirely because of the opposite of what you say, don't you think in that case Mubarek was actually keeping a lid on a lot of genuine, popular anti-Israel sentiment there?

And if you agree, why do you think it's any different elsewhere in the region?

Do you think the average arab outside of Israel or the occupied territories gives a damn about the Palestinians? They are a hated, unwelcomed radicalized group everywhere in the Middle East.

It is a huge issue. Even in American foreign policy. We want to talk to Egypt about something, they bring up Palestine. Same with every other country. The conflict is perhaps the only thing other than language that unites Arabs of various nationalities.

I can also say from personal experience it's very important to many Arab-Americans. Go talk to a Palestinian who left the occupied territories because of the danger and fear. If you listen to their stories you won't be so blindly pro-Israel.

However I will agree that various autocrats often funneled dissent towards the Israelis to protect themselves. But that only works because of how important the plight of the Palestinians is to people across the Middle East. It wasn't a manufactured problem, it had preexisting concern they could use to their own benefit.

The jury is still out on Arab Spring. The parties who were the best organized in the aftermath are the ones who were the toothless official forms of dissent under the dictators. The Islamicist parties. These groups were thoroughly co-opted by the former leadership and don't represent much of a significant change. They are the ones most poised to grab power and political support while their rivals are still trying to get their bearings. Islamicism is not a true form of dissent in the middle east. Far from it. Once we see a situation where peace and democracy is the norm in the region, the attitudes will become far more honest and a lot less hostile.

The diplomatic relationship with Israel was one kept by the prior regime. Of course Mubarak never really put a lid on anti-Israel sentiment, he just didn't express it from his own office. It served a purpose for his regime as did the Muslim Brotherhood. Anti-Israeli sentiment is a good way to appeal to the masses in the arab world without having to show any kind of responsible governance. It works, so they keep it up.

Of course these same Egyptians have an outright loathing of the Palestinians both within the country and outside. Bear in mind, the only reason Israel kept Gaza was because the Egyptians didn't want it back.

The problem with your POV is that it is inherently contradictary on its face. If the Arab world is so annoyed at Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians, why do they hate the Palestinians so much themselves? Why does the Iraqi genocide of Kurds and Marsh Arabs get a pass, or Black September get easily overlooked? The fact of the matter is most people in those countries don't have concerns which extend further than their own borders. Its all so very politically convenient to have an outside enemy.

You aren't refuting what I am saying about the genuine concern for Palestinians among arabs. What a Palestinian will say about their own people and what every other Arab nationality says are two different things.

No Middle East government wants them to be peaceful or even united. Their own representatives have more in common with foreign paymasters than the will of the Palestinian people. Arafat was bought and paid for from the moment he took the mantle of spokesperson of his people. Iran is paying to keep a civil war going on among the Palestinians. They have become pawns in the power struggle between Iran and the Arab League.

Well once again you make some good points and certainly aren't without some reasoning behind your conclusions. Indeed in fact I think one can't deny at least some validity to same just out of pure common sense: The Palestinians have been putting the arm on the rest of the Arab world for an awful long time now, and have certainly missed at least some opportunities for sure, so there's gotta be some decent amount of "brotherhood fatigue" there you gotta believe.

Still, "blood" is a pretty thick thing, isn't it? As evidenced no less by the degree of affection/devotion/what-have-you of the world's jewry towards Israel.

It's one thing to eventually tire of and turn away from the pleas of a stranger. Another to do so to one's brother, no?

The only people the Arabs seem to hate more than Israel is other Arabs. Internicine hatreds and rivalries run very deep in the region. Pan Arabism has been largely a joke.

Thanks largely in part from European colonialism, they have national borders which are much much different from actual ethnic divisions. But you also have petty national rivalries which frequently get violent within the Arab world.

You mistake the work of dictators for something resembling gripes which should be taken seriously. Its very tough to listen to Arabs with a straight face about their concern for Palestinians when it is obvious they could care less. They barely care enough about their neighbors or even their fellow citizens. Its a politically expedient act.

"Do you think the average arab outside of Israel or the occupied territories gives a damn about the Palestinians?"

Yes, I do, as evidenced at the very least by your own noting of their "sending arms" and etc. to them.

----The sending of arms to the Palestinians has been done largely by the Iranians, i.e. non-Arabs. Few if any weapons have come from the Arab states, unless by individual tribes or criminal groups looking to make a quick buck.

Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli army chief of staff during the war: "I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."

General Mattityahu Peled, a member of Israel's general staff in 1967: "[T]he thesis according to which the danger of genocide weighed on us in June 1967, and that Israel struggled for its physical existence is only a bluff born and developed after the war."

Menachem Begin: "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

This isn't to say that Israel didn't feel it was *basically* defensive in a long-term way, and there's no doubt Nasser was being provocative and couldn't cry much about getting what he had been somewhat sucking after anyway, but it wasn't the "defensive war of survival" that you see it as. And it didn't need to grab the land that it did in same either. Note again Begin's words about the primacy of Israeli decision-making in the whole thing.

much of that is post-victory bluster. Rabin actually collapsed from a nervous breakdown before the war, and Prime Minister Eshkol shook the country to its knees in fear prior to the war. Afterwards, following a tremendous victory, the typical middle eastern swagger came out.

The Old Testament may be the primary book of Judaism, but Israel is primarily Zionist. Zionism is a religion, based on demanding possession of a land based on fiat and violence.

what a psuedo intellectual bullshit comment.

Palestinians tried to "dispossess" the Jews, murder them, and throw them into the sea. They lost....sucks for them. And their own arab brothers barely feel bad for them. What a joke.

RR: I freely granted that Israel fundamentally acted out of a defensive impulse: So what do you want, some iron-like agreement with you as to every single fact, inflection, nuance and etc. possible down to the sub-microscopic level? Else I'm a "pukeboy"? Even when I'm quoting a member of Israel's general staff at the time to support the nuance I'm asserting? (Clearly talking about more than just Nasser?)

Geez, Dude, we're just talking here. Cool down.

"How much more BS can we take?"

Depends. How much more do you have?

Count how many threats Iran has made to Israel, its neighbors and rivals in the Arab world.

Add the number of provocative military exercises designed to cause as much mayhem to the oil producing states as possible

Then multiply it by the amount of money Iran spends on foreign proxy forces and terror groups.