Fire When Ready

Obama's targeted drone strikes -- even on Americans -- aren't illegal. In fact, there's a solid legal foundation and a number of checks and balances upholding his right to take out terrorists.

BY JACK GOLDSMITH | MARCH 19, 2012

Is Holder right? It is hard to say for sure because the due process clause has never before been thought relevant to wartime presidential targeting decisions. The system described above goes far beyond any process given to any target in any war in American history. Awlaki was not given a formal notice and opportunity to defend himself in court, but war does not permit such formal practices. One predicate for the killing was that Awlaki was in hiding -- beyond legal process or the reasonable possibility of capture -- and plotting and directing attacks on the United States. The U.S. government made clear that if Awlaki "were to surrender or otherwise present himself to the proper authorities in a peaceful and appropriate manner, legal principles with which the United States has traditionally and uniformly complied would prohibit using lethal force or other violence against him in such circumstances." And as Judge Bates noted, while Awlaki's placement on a targeting list was publicly disclosed in January 2010, Awlaki publicly disclaimed any intention of challenging his status or turning himself in.

It is hard to see how the executive branch could have taken its constitutional responsibilities more seriously while honoring its obligation to keep the nation safe. In light of Judge Bates's ruling and the analysis on which it rests, and until Congress thinks the president's approach to targeting requires change, the current system -- executive deliberation guided by judicial precedent and subject to congressional oversight -- almost certainly satisfies any constitutional requirement. In any event, it belies the claim that the president is not subject to checks and balances.

This conclusion will not assuage critics like Andrew Rosenthal who insist that "the president must receive judicial input before ordering the death of an American citizen." What Rosenthal and other krytocrats have not explained is how the Constitution permits, much less demands, such ex ante judicial input. These critics have not grappled with Judge Bates's analysis. Nor have they explained how a presidential request for judicial approval to target and kill a terrorist suspect is consistent with the constitutional limitation of judicial power to cases and controversies between parties in court.

It is also unclear whether judges possess the competence to assess and quickly act upon military targets, or whether they would welcome the responsibility for targeting decisions. Perhaps Congress could devise a lawful and effective scheme of judicial or administrative review of the president's targeting decisions. But it has shown no inclination to do so, and it appears to support the current arrangement.

The final and arguably most fundamental check on the president's targeted killing program is public disclosure and debate. Public congressional hearings have revealed a lot about the factual and legal basis for the government's program. At the same time, human rights NGOs, led by Romero's ACLU, have filed lawsuits and made Freedom of Information Act requests about the practice, and issued many hard-hitting reports. These efforts have pressured the executive branch -- in speeches, document disclosures, and leaks -- to make public more and more factual and legal details about its targeted killing program over time. The U.S. and global press have also disclosed many details of supposedly secret or covert targeted killing operations against White House wishes. In general, technological innovation in the last decade has made the press and public more adept than ever at scrutinizing the wartime presidency's secret operations, including its targeting decisions.

These disclosures have fostered a robust public debate about targeting killing in the United States and abroad, and the American public broadly approves of what it sees. According to a recent Washington Post/ABC News poll, 83 percent of respondents (including 77 percent of liberal Democrats) say they approve of the Obama administration's use of drones against terror suspects overseas, while only 11 percent disapprove. The approval/disapproval numbers drop to 65/26 percent when respondents are told that the targets are American citizens. As the Washington Post's Greg Sargent noted, "65 percent is still a very big number." Sargent added that "Democrats approve of the drone strikes on American citizens by 58-33, and even liberals approve of them, 55-35."

To say that the targeted killing program is embedded in a serious system of checks and balances, and is approved by the American people, is not to say that the government's public justification of the program has been optimal. It has not. The most glaring problem is that the whole world knows about U.S. targeting practices but the U.S. government cannot talk about them openly -- because the operations are either covert (which means they cannot be officially acknowledged) or classified (which means they cannot be discussed publicly), or both.

There are good reasons why the government must be careful in its public discussion of particular targeting practices, even if aspects of the practices are publicly known. One is that the intelligence on which they are based is often fragile, and can evaporate if the means or methods of intelligence are disclosed. Another is that, as Abram Shulsky and Gary Schmitt explain, the government sometimes doesn't publicly acknowledge their involvement in covert action for diplomatic reasons:

It is less provocative and less disruptive to diplomatic relations not to acknowledge an operation even if the country adversely affected by it is well aware of one's involvement. The target country, either in the interests of good relations or because it cannot effectively prevent it, may ignore the covert action; it is much harder for it to do so if the government conducting it publicly acknowledges what it is doing.

In short, certain actions are covert because an agreement to deny U.S. involvement was a condition of cooperation from the host country.

Ethan Miller/Getty Images

 

Jack Goldsmith is a Harvard Law professor and a member of the Hoover Task Force on National Security and Law. He served in the Bush administration as assistant attorney general in charge of the Office of Legal Counsel. His new book is Power and Constraint: The Accountable Presidency after 9/11.   

JOHNBOY4546

9:40 PM ET

March 19, 2012

No mention of the elephant in the corner, I see.....

This article relies very heavily on the Laws Of War to legitimize these drone strikes.

This article (correctly) points out that those Laws Of War place a very clear onus on the combatants to make the effort at "distinguishing enemy soldiers from civilians".

But what this article doesn't mention is that those Laws Of War also place an onus on you regarding the corrollary i.e. you are to form an Armed Forces, and you are to make it clear who amongst you are members of those Armed Forces, and who are not......

So your Seal Team Six can go in 'n' shoot the place up good, no problem, but you don't send in the Sweathogs from Welcome Back Kotter to do the same thing.

And that has nothing to do with their relative skill-sets or effectiveness: it has to do with the former serving in the US Navy (one of your Armed Forces) while the latter are not.

Having said that, I will come to the point: this author nowhere mentions that a Very Large Proportion of those drone strikes are being carried out by the CIA.

Q: What is the CIA?
A: It may be many thinks to many people, but one thing it ain't is "one of the US Armed Forces".

Q: So is a CIA-led drone strike legal under the Laws of War?
A: Nope. It is as illegal as a drone strike by the Internal Revenue Service.

 

SDBG

12:32 AM ET

March 20, 2012

Not that simple...

I wouldn't go so far as to say that CIA-led strikes are per-se illegal under International Humanitarian Law/Laws of Armed Conflict. It is not so cut-and-dry that the CIA lacks combatants' privilege to take out these strikes. Under the Third Geneva Conventions, Art. 4:

"The individuals must be commanded by someone who is responsible for the actions of the subordinates; they must have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; they must carry their arms openly; and they must operate in a manner that is compliant with the laws and customs of war."

There is considerable debate as to whether or not the CIA could pass this test: 1) For one thing, CIA drone strikes operations take place subject to a command structure; 2) They involve the open display of arms (the drones themselves); 3) They are arguably conducted in accordance with the laws of war.

The requirement of "fixed distinctive sign" may be a harder sell, but is not impossible. If the US Air Force uses a drone, how do we know that the hellfire missiles they are using carry distinctive signs? What qualifies as a distinctive sign? For all we know, the CIA drones could have some sort of sign on them.

 

JOHNBOY4546

1:29 AM ET

March 20, 2012

GCIII has one purpose only......

.. which it so define who should be regarded as a Prisoner of War, and to define what the detaining power can - and can't - do with him should he become "fallen into the power of the enemy"

It has no role to play in determining who is - or who is not - entitled to go BANG! on anyone.

Having said that.....

Is a CIA remote pilot:
A) A member of the US Armed forces?
No, he is not; the CIA is not counted umongst the US Armed Forces.
B) A member of an armed militia or a volunteer corp?
No, he is not; the CIA is a civilian agency of the US govt.
C) "Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof"
No, he is not; he is sitting in a room at Langley.
D) An American who has "spontaneously" taken up arms on the approach of an invader?
No, he is not; he is employed to do what he is doing.

He is a civilian, because he is an employee of a civilian agency of the government of the United States of America, so under the Laws of War what the f**k is that government thinking when it allows that spook to put his finger on that trigger?

 

JOHNBOY4546

1:40 AM ET

March 20, 2012

Just to stress this point, because I may have been unclear.

You quote Article 4 of GCIII, but you miss the all-important first sentence i.e. the part that says that what follows shall apply to:
"Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements,"

Is the CIA a militia?
No, you can not stretch the definition of a "militia" to include the Central Intelligence Agency.

Is the CIA a volunteer corp?
No, that's an even bigger stretch.

Is the CIA an organized resistance movement?
OK, this is just getting silly.....

If it is none of those things (and it isn't, it is a civilian agency of the US govt) then the paragraph that you quoted is completely and utterly irrelevent i.e. it simply doesn't apply to a CIA spook, and that remains true regardless of whether - or not - he has "fallen into the power of the enemy".

 

LIEBER

1:19 PM ET

March 20, 2012

well, yes and no

A hypothetical strike conducted by an OGA may fall outside of combatant immunity. That does not make it illegal under American (or international for that matter) law. Conducting hostilities while lacking in combatant immunity simply means that you can be prosecuted by someone with jurisdiction if they choose to do so (presumably by your target if they have a legal system). But it's not in and of itself a crime. It just means that you don't have combatant immunity.

Put differently, if an OGA were to conduct such a strike in Yemen, conceivably Yemen could prosecute for said strike. But that doesn't mean that a violation of American or international law occurred.

Got it? If you fight without combatant immunity you no longer have immunity from relevant criminal laws is all. It's not in and of itself criminal under the LOAC.

 

GOMER_RS

4:28 PM ET

March 20, 2012

Two Problems W/ CIA

The CIA was formed to break the laws of other nations. They beg, borrow, and steal information and conduct actions beneficial to the United States even when those actions are inimical to other nations, foes and allies alike, and against the laws in the places they are operating.

And do we know for sure that the CIA isn't using Air Force or Navy pilots for drone operations?

When the NSA needs a signals intelligence it is often a military asset, P-3 Orion, Navy listening ship, Air Force satellite that gathers the data.

If we did hold the position that CIA drone pilots were acting illegally, then were the intelligence agents that participated in the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001-2 also acting illegally?

 

JOHNBOY4546

8:12 PM ET

March 20, 2012

"Got it?" Yeah, I did. You, not so much.....

"Got it? If you fight without combatant immunity you no longer have immunity from relevant criminal laws is all. It's not in and of itself criminal under the LOAC."

*sigh*

That would be a fantastic argument if the Predator drone was being operated by Batman i.e. a lone vigilante working outside of any and all authority.

But he ain't: he is an employee of the CIA, which is a civilian agency of the Government of the United States of America.

So he isn't grasping that joystick because he is a billionare who can afford such toys, but because the US government has sat him down in that chair and said: kill this man for me.

This entire article is about how it is "legal" for the US government to kill people using Predator drones, and I am perfectly correct to point out that it is a gross violation of international law for the US government to turn to a civilian and order him to do that killing.

 

LIEBER

9:56 AM ET

March 21, 2012

which law? which convention?

all you've pointed to is a lack of combatant immunity.

you can't point to one cause there ain't

 

JOHNBOY4546

4:37 PM ET

March 21, 2012

Which convention?

The Geneva Conventions and the Hague Regulations tell you who states can use to wage war.

Who can a government use to wage war?
1) Members of the armed forces.
2) Members of a militia (provided they are organized like (1))
3) Members of a volunteer corp (provided they are organized like (1))
4) Members of an organized resistance (provided they are organized like (1))

That's it.

Anyone else THE US GOVERNMENT ITSELF insists is an "illegal combatant".

Are you suggesting that it is "legal" for the US government to employ "illegal combatants"?

 

MICHAELGERALDPDEALINO

1:55 AM ET

March 20, 2012

Too Much Ado for Something

So much brouhaha. When people are out to harm or kill civilians, they should be taken down, so they are valid targets. Period.

 

JOHNBOY4546

2:31 AM ET

March 20, 2012

"So much brouhaha."

You believe in vigilante justice.

Fine: at least you are being honest.

Unlike the author of this article, who is attempting to be dishonest.

 

GOMER_RS

4:31 PM ET

March 20, 2012

Not Vigilante Justice

The congress of the United States in prusenant to the powers enumerated in the constitution, authorized the use of armed force and the making of war upon Al-Qaeda and the nations and governments that support it.

The United States is at war, that Al-Qaeda is effectively an evil NGO doesn't change that fact.

 

JOHNBOY4546

7:59 PM ET

March 20, 2012

A thoroughly nonsensical argument

"The congress of the United States in prusenant to the powers enumerated in the constitution, authorized the use of armed force and the making of war upon Al-Qaeda and the nations and governments that support it."

The Congress can not "authorize" the violation of international humanitarian law.

It can authorize the use of force, sure, but if that force is "used" illegally then it is used illegally, and you can not point back to the Congress and say "they told me I could".

The Congress simply can't tell anyone that, since it lacks the constitutional power to violate a treaty that has been signed by the United States of America.

MICHAELGP argued that the USA can designate anyone to be "a valid target to be taken down", and I (correctly) pointed out that this is vigilante justice.

Your argument is basically saying that the USA can "legally" apply vigilante justice if/when the Congress authorizes the use of force, and that argument is utterly nonsensical.

 

LIEBER

9:56 AM ET

March 21, 2012

wrong

Treaties have the full force of any other law passed by Congress. Consequently, where treaties and U.S. law conflict, the "last in time" rule prevails. Even if U.S. actions against al Qaeda violated IHL (which they do not), that would be irrelevant since the 2001 AUMF is the Congressional action latest in time.

 

JOHNBOY4546

10:24 PM ET

March 21, 2012

Such a ludicrous argument.

International Humanitarian Law tells you what you can - and can't - do once ya' got yer' war on.

A AUMF is a vote that says that as far as Congress is concerned the USA can get ya' war on! whenever the President feels like it.

If that AUMF "authorizes" the President to get ya' war on! in ways that are in violation of International Humanitarian Law then those methods of war would *still* be War Crimes if carried out by the US Armed Forces i.e. neither the President nor the troops that he commands can claim an "time-out" from IHL by arguing "But! But! But! The Congress said I could!!!!"

Look, Geneva Convention II says that you must accept the surrender of enemy troops.

Congress can pass a law that says as far as US law is concerned it is Okey-Dokey to Take No Prisoners.

Q: Would shooting prisoners then be "legal" under US Law?
A: I'll leave it to you to argue that brief.

Q: Would the USA be violating international humanitarian law by shooting prisoners?
A: Yeah, of course, and no amount of Congressional Authorization would change that.

A treaty is a treaty is a treaty is a treaty, and once ratified by the Congress then the terms of that treaty can only be amended by getting all the signatories back into the room to agree to those changes.

The Congress is not one of the signatories, and so it can't "amend" international treaties by passing domestic legislation that claims to keep that treaty but excises Article X and modifies Article Y.

 

NICOLAS19

7:23 AM ET

March 20, 2012

completely off the mark

Johnboy4546 above said all about international law governing these kinds of cases black and white. The argument simply shouldn't go beyond that point, but the article apologetically insists on finding some kind of justification.

Take the Awlaki case (page 2), which is full of misleading assertions.

- War did not permit him to be notified about the charges against him: We are talking about an American-Yemeni citizen. Was the US at war with itself of with Yemen? No. Then which war did not permit any kind of notification? The term "war on terror" is purely a fiction, it does not mean any special rules for criminal procedure. "Hey! You are an HR guy (a recruiter - this was the only charge against him)! The war on terror permits me to gun you down on the spot!"

- The fact that he was in hiding automatically excluded any kind of ordinary procedure. So this means if a criminal is in hiding - basically anyone who is not turning himself in on the crime scene is in hiding - you can kill him without any further ado. Additionally, he was hiding in Yemen, a country run by a US buddy dictator, Saleh (who is currently a guest of the US), so he was hardly out of reach.

- The US made it clear that they want him to surrender, while he vowed not to. So he became free prey then? The author basically suggests that if a suspected criminal decides not to answer a summons, he is punishable by death. Note that he was not convicted of any crime whatsoever, so the assassination cannot be considered as punishment for his actions, but merely for hiding.

 

LIEBER

1:20 PM ET

March 20, 2012

Nicolas19 try reading the article

instead of making shit up. I refer you to the 2001 AUMF.

 

F1FAN

7:58 AM ET

March 20, 2012

It's all legal

The extra judicial assassinations of American citizens and Foreigners alike because the United States Government has officially declared war on both. I assume that is what Mr. Goldsmith meant to say but lacks the intestinal fortitude to actually say.

 

ERNESTPAYNE

8:36 AM ET

March 20, 2012

The Drone Wars

The US should remember that, while it holds a short term technological advantage, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Sooner or later the technology will become available to others who will target americans with the same care americans target civilians.

 

GOMER_RS

4:37 PM ET

March 20, 2012

The Point is They Aren't Civilians

We are targeting the operational and political heads of the organization that conducted the largest successful foreign attack on sovereign American territory in the 250 year history of this nation. More significant than Pearl Harbor, The burning of Washington, or the Invasion of New Orleans.

The only things comparable are Pearl Harbor and the battles of the Civil War.

And we would expect future actors to be deterred by our response to Al-Qaeda, that you can not make war upon the United States to no consequence.

 

JOHNBOY4546

8:22 PM ET

March 20, 2012

Still looks to me like the USA can be stewed in its own juices

"We are targeting the operational and political heads of the organization that conducted the largest successful foreign attack on sovereign American territory in the 250 year history of this nation. More significant than Pearl Harbor, The burning of Washington, or the Invasion of New Orleans."

Yeah, but you are targetting those people in countries like Yemen and Pakistan, and I'll be darned but I can't find any reference to the USA declaring war on either.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander e.g. both the MEK and the PKK operate openly in the USA, and so - according to Gomer-logic(tm) - the USA would have no reason to complain if one day Iran and/or Turkey sent some armed drones over Washington to blow up a few motorcades.

After all, both Turkey and Iran are also fighting their own War On Terror, and if those terrorists are tooling around Washington in big ol' chevvies then those two countries have every "right" to take 'em down.......

 

BROWNSHIRTSFORFAGS

8:49 AM ET

March 20, 2012

obama is bending the laws in ways bush never did...

can you say hypocrisy? and he gets away with it!

where are the mainstream media now????? when bush was in power, they were frothing at the mouth...

 

MIHAI MARTOIU TICU

11:51 AM ET

March 20, 2012

Machiavellianism

So, what if U.S. kills my family and I disagree with the U.S. legal argument? Where can I sue U.S.? Goldsmith’s argument permits the U.S. to do such thing with impunity, while denying me a fundamental right – the right to access to a court. This is dictatorship. It sounds like Machiavellianism to me, elevated to a new level of perversity. Let me illustrate this with a thought experiment:

Imagine that a cataclysmic catastrophe destroys much of the Earth. Most of the continents sink beneath the waters and a new continent arises from the ocean. You and a group of people from all over the world survive the catastrophe and colonize the new continent.

For a while, there is no state, there are no laws, no judges and no courts. People divide the land into farms and try to rebuild their lives as best as they can. We could call this the state of nature.

In this state of nature, a conflict arises between you and your neighbor. You notice that the fence between your farms is frequently moved, to your disadvantage, making your territory smaller and your neighbor’s larger. Mister S. Mart, hereinafter referred to as Smart, your neighbor, denies that he has anything to do with it, or, indeed, that it even happens. After a while, your stock starts dying out since there is not enough grass and hunger leads to the death of some of your children.

Then a new incident occurs. Mister Smart kills your twelve year old daughter and sells her organs; at least, this is what you are pretty firmly convinced is the case, especially since you have seen it yourself, together with several witnesses.

By chance, it was filmed from different angles. You also have similarly compelling evidence that he has sold her organs. You confront Smart with your argument, but he denies that he has committed a crime.
Confronted with your accusation, he replies using one or more of the following arguments:

1. “You are a little bit short-sighted, your cameras are flawed and all your witnesses are unreliable junkies who cannot discern the difference between a human and a cow.”

2. “Yes, indeed, I took her life, and I feel the pain very deeply, I feel compassion and I am empathic with you, but I could not do otherwise”. He then adds one of the following:
• “She attacked me with a weapon and I had to defend myself.”
• “I have suffered terribly unfortunate brain damage and lose control of myself sometimes.”
• “I didn’t sell her organs, but used them for seminal scientific research and have discovered a cure for a sickness that will save the lives of billions of children in the future, children who would otherwise die before they were ten. It is the same sickness that your other two children have, and thus I could save them.”

3. “The whole story is a mendacity intended only to destroy my magnificent self. You are just jealous of my freedom, my money, and my moral and intellectual superiority.”

Given the situation, and as the reasonable person you are, you try to remain tranquil. You propose to Smart that you take the matter to a competent, neutral and detached, third party with as few interests at stake as is possible; namely, to a judge or some kind of a court. This new, first-enacted judge should look at the evidence and decide who is right and what should be done. Her decision should be binding on both of you. If the judge decides that the fence should be moved to the old location, Smart should abide without reservations. The same should happen if the judge finds him guilty of the killing; he should accept the punishment and/or the payment of compensation.

It goes without saying that you pledge to resign yourself to any decision unfavorable to you.

Smart reacts with indignation at the accusation leveled against him and at the waste of his valuable time and says that he is not going to let a judge make the final decision, since he is good and certain that his argument is more than solid.

In short, he demands the freedom to be the sole arbiter in respect of his guilt.

This is precisely what U.S. does: she claims to be the sole judge of her actions.

This violates the most important rule of law: that nobody should be the judge in her own conflicts. It is because we all have limited cognitive powers, we are subjective in our conflicts. That is why we solve our conflicts through binding decisions of third persons (the judges), because they are in important ways more objective than we are.

In fact most of the world sees this. And technology empowers individuals from all over the world to commit terrorist acts. It is naive to believe that they will stop if there is no court where they can sue U.S. and challenge her legal arguments.

 

LIEBER

1:21 PM ET

March 20, 2012

no

It's no different than any time a nation declares war (which the 2001 AUMF essentially did).

 

GOMER_RS

4:43 PM ET

March 20, 2012

What you essentially describe is how nations actually act.

The only difference is the concept of reciprocity. If you attempt to steal the life and land of other nations, the other actors are more likely to do the same to you. The current legal framework was created to limit this behavior after WWII but it is by no means gone. And, how we are acting towards Al-Qaeda is very much in the precedent that if you take a shot at me I can and will kill you.

Self-defense is the right most universally recognized in international law. And unlike in say common law the government claiming self defense doesn't have to be at risk of destruction but can claim that right on behalf of any of their citizens.

So, when Al-Qaeda flew planes into the World Trade Center we had unlimited legal justification to hunt down and kill all members of the organization under international law. The only constraint was that in American law it required authorization from congress, which was provided.

 

JOHNBOY4546

8:48 PM ET

March 20, 2012

See above

"So, when Al-Qaeda flew planes into the World Trade Center we had unlimited legal justification to hunt down and kill all members of the organization under international law."

No, even during an armed conflict you can not do anything you please to hunt down and kill your enemies.

Heck, if that were true then the USA could have "won" the war on terror on the morning of 9/12 with, oh, less than half a dozen nukes: it certainly wouldn't have taken more than that to incinerate every important Al-Qaeda leader in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Pity about the collateral, sure, but even that could have easily been post-hoc handwaved away by a Congressional authorization......

After all, all's fair in love and war, heh?

 

JKLFAIRWIN

11:18 PM ET

March 20, 2012

Outrageous

First check the resume. Goldsmith was either the direct supervisor of the infamous John Yoo and approved that horribly twisted piece of legal gobbledygook or else he came on afterwards and did nothing to correct that incredibly incompetent biased and pandering memo. Due process requires, at the minimum, that people have an opportunity to defend themselves. No one has ever claimed that Alawi was in any way responsible for 9/11. As for all Gpldsmith's nonsense about substance, deliberations , public information, etc. whati is he relying on? The New York Times - the same bastion of truth and accuracy that trumpeted Saddam Hussein' s WMD. Yeah, right. This is the most secretive administration in history. The only people it prosecutes are whistleblowers who reveal the dirty government secrets - no torturers, no fraudulent banksters- that would be looking backward. There is a reason they are so secretive. What they are doing violates the Constitution, international law, morality, and every standard of due process. Goldsmith hopes, no doubt, by these ridiculous claims to immunize himself for the gross illegalities he sanctioned under Bush which now continue, even increased under Obama.

 

LIEBER

10:04 AM ET

March 21, 2012

JKLFAIRWIN, I'd suggest you read up on Goldsmith

Apparently you're not familiar with his resume...or his status as a critic of Yoo and the use of torture etc...or the circumstances involving his interplay with the Bush administration. You might want to read up a bit more.

 

SIN NOMBRE

2:41 AM ET

March 21, 2012

Geez

F1FAN wrote:

"The extra judicial assassinations of American citizens and Foreigners alike because the United States Government has officially declared war on both. I assume that is what Mr. Goldsmith meant to say but lacks the intestinal fortitude to actually say."

No, that's exactly what he said, except, unfortunately but inevitably, it's surrounded with lawyer talk.

Look, folks, I agree that Goldsmith foolishly used some language that made it sound like he was agreeing with the *smartness* of the U.S.'s actions in this "war on terror" crap. And maybe he does even.

But he's a legal pro, and he—and F2FAN—are right: It's just beyond argument even that in any number of ways the U.S. has officially gone to war on those folks it is killing, so let's stop trying to pretend that the Constitution said that this country could only engage in *smart* wars.

I know that one of the problems is that we haven't actually seen Congress here "Declare" this war in so many words, and Goldsmith should have noted that the Supreme Court has long held there is no requirement that the Congress do so for the government to exercise its war powers.

But regardless of him not doing so, that's what the Supremes did, so blame them.

So stop whacking at Goldsmith for just bringing us the news. Just like ... you go to a lawyer and he can tell you whether what you've done is legal, but that's an entirely different question from whether it was smart of you to have done it. Indeed in fact it's an entirely un-related question.

 

JOHNBOY4546

3:31 AM ET

March 21, 2012

You can't do *everything* simply because ya' got ya' war on.

"It's just beyond argument even that in any number of ways the U.S. has officially gone to war on those folks it is killing,"

Indeed, but is the USA killing these folks in accordance with the Laws Of War?

Congress can't authorize anyone to do anything that violates a signed treaty, because any treaty that the USA signs instantly becomes The Law Of The Land.

So forget the domestic laws. Forget what the Congress has "authorized" the President to do.

The question is this, and it was always this: is killing these people via pilotless drones in accordance with the Laws of War?

Personally, I think there is no question that drone strikes operated by the CIA are in blatent violation of the Laws of War.

I have a more open mind about drone strikes operated by the USAF, but even there I have very grave doubts indeed that the rules of engagement being used by the USA is in accordance with international law regarding who you can - and who you can't - go BANG!!!!! on.

 

LIEBER

10:01 AM ET

March 21, 2012

a little learning is a dangerous thing

I'd suggest that you read up some more.

I already explained how a lack of combatant immunity is not a per se violation of the LOAC (otherwise by definition being a member of the Taliban would automatically make one a war criminal...which is not the case).

And regardless, Congress can abrogate any treaty (which it has not done).

 

LIEBER

10:02 AM ET

March 21, 2012

Yup

Good post. (I'll note that an AUMF (the first one dates to 1799...this isn't a new thing folks) is essentially a Declaration of War...it just doesn't trigger certain laws that depend upon a formal DoW...that's the only difference.)

 

JOHNBOY4546

4:44 PM ET

March 21, 2012

"Congress can abrogate any treaty (which it has not done)."

LIEBER, but in another post: "Even if U.S. actions against al Qaeda violated IHL (which they do not), that would be irrelevant since the 2001 AUMF is the Congressional action latest in time."

Apparently the US Congress is in the habit of straddling stools i.e. Congress has abrogated the Geneva Conventions by voting the 2001 AUMF, but Congress still hasn't abrogated the Geneva Conventions.

How does that work, again?

 

JOHNBOY4546

4:46 PM ET

March 21, 2012

"that's the only difference"

No, it is not the only difference.

A AUMF does not violate Article 2(4) of the UN Charter.
A formal DoW does.

 

JOHNBOY4546

4:58 PM ET

March 21, 2012

A nonsensical straw man

"I already explained how a lack of combatant immunity is not a per se violation of the LOAC (otherwise by definition being a member of the Taliban would automatically make one a war criminal...which is not the case)."

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The trick should be obvious: LIEBER is obsessing over the "legality" of the individual, whereas I am talking about the "legality" of the decisions of the government that this individual works for.

An example: Afghanistain, circa 1999

Q: Is it illegal for the Taliban government to hire people?
A: No.

Q: Is it illegal to be an employee of the Taliban government?
A: No.

Q: Is it illegal for the Taliban government to form an armed forces?
A: No.

Q: Is it illegal to be an member of that Taliban Armed Forces?
A: No.

Q: Is it illegal for the Taliban government to order its Armed Forces into combat?
A: No.

Q: Can it order a Taliban militia into combat?
A: Not illegal IF they are organized along the same lines as the AF.

Q: Can it order a volunteer corp into action?
A: Not illegal IF they are arganized along the same lines as the AF.

Q: What about a resistance organization?
A: No, not illegal IF they are arganized along the same lines as the AF.

Q: What about Taliban tax collectors and street sweepers?
A: The Taliban must not order them into battle.

Q: Why not?
A: They are not members of the AF, an organized milia, a volunteer corp, or an organized resistance group.

 

KORVOSCOP

10:31 AM ET

March 21, 2012

Apparently you're not

Apparently you're not familiar with his resume...or his status as a critic of Yoo fashion wholesale and the use of torture etc...or the circumstances involving his interplay with the Bush administration. You might want to read up a bit more.

 

MICHAELTURTON

11:16 PM ET

March 25, 2012

Irrelevant

Korvoscop, it's a perfect example of what G Greenwald is constantly noting, that the critics of Bush cheerlead the same stuff when Obama does it that they opposed when Bush did it.

This article is a sickness. Its author is deeply misguided, at best. Note that Awlaki's son was killed as well in a drone strike that killed 9 others. Did Obama have the right to slay him as well?

The drone program, from start to finish, is one long war crime. Targeted extrajudicial killings are war crimes and profoundly anti-American and anti-democratic. Quite apart from this, given the drone program's political, fiscal, and social costs (among which are otherwise intelligent legal commentators arguing in national publications that Congress can overturn the Constitution and the President can simply kill people when he doesn't like their politics) they are also insane.

Michael

 

IRMGARD DAUZAT

9:01 PM ET

April 17, 2012

Obama's targeted drone strikes -- even on Americans

As for me, I have real conflicted emotions about this. I am against the war and want US troops to be out of the Middle East as soon as possible. But I also recognize that we have enemies, foreign and domestic that want to hurt us and if we ignore that, we are arrogant and naive. The drones are the better solutions to a situation with no good solution. I would not say I "approve" of the drone program but I prefer it to sending and keeping troops.