After Obama said last May that the Green Line should be the border of independent Palestine, the US Congress under directions from Aipac grovelled at the feet of BIbi Netanyahu. And Netanyahu wants to keep most of the West Bank permanently.

I visited the Site and commented on the only comment as follows- Which was promptly flushed.

http://non-intervention.com/1035/slavery-in-america-you-bet-listen-to-obama-and-romney/

"Rhett1 97p · 2 weeks ago
Thank you for at least ONE voice of reason.

The groveling of our leaders to Israeli Firsters will only stop, I suppose, when the US has totally devolved into bankruptcy and division."

Maybe, maybe not.

One might better look for an answer to the question of how German Jewry went from sitting at the top of nearly every German Institution to Krystal Nacht in about one Generation.

Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com

German Jewry has a history going back to at least 321 BC when Jews were a very integral part of the Roman city Cologne in Germania. But even then, Jews were kept out of public office.

So why, after over 1,600 years of history on German land came the Holocaust? Because in 1922 Palestine was opened to free Jewish immigration and millions of Jews could have come to Palestine to create a Jewish state long before WWII. Alas, only few did so. My mother wanted to go in 1934, but my grandmother, later murdered by the Nazis in the ghetto of Boremel, did not want her dear daughter to face abject poverty and Arab attacks. Palestine was both impoverished and dangerous, and yet the Jews by 1931 had already created the nucleus of a future Jewish state that could have been realized by 1938 had most Jews come.

The Jews have one of two choices: to strengthen their own ancestral state, or face inevitable oblivion either through assimilation or persecution abroad.

"If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter—because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People.”

Ben-Gurion (1938).

(As quoted in Benny Morris’ Righteous Victims, p. 162)

anti-semitic morons jerking each other off.

A circle-jerk of stupidity, we shall say.

The McCain-Feingold bill of the early 2000's may have been the tipping point where the Lobby assumed control of US Mid-east policy.
In this article at http://www.momentmag.com/moment/issues/2011/08/Opinion_Guttman.html
the author believes 50% of Democrat campaign contributions & 33% of Republican currently come from Jewish sources.
He believes that those contributions effect may be diluted as the Citizens United ruling that effectively killed McCain-Feingold will again open contributions to coorperations & unions & therefore reduce Jewish influence.

Bravo. George Bush Sr. wanted Israel out of the West Bank and Gaza, and to see an independent Palestine. Clinton blundered badly by not immediately following up on Bush's achiements.

Wikipedia - West Bank

"The name West Bank, a translation of the Arabic term ad-difa’a al-gharbiya, was coined by the Jordanians after the territory, conquered by Jordan's Arab Legion in 1948, was annexed to Transjordan, forming the new Kingdom of Jordan in 1949–50. The term was chosen to differentiate the "West bank of the River Jordan", namely the newly annexed territory, from the "East Bank" of this river, namely Transjordan[citation needed]. Until that point, the area was generally known[12] by the historic names of its two regions – Judea and Samaria,[13] the term used by Israel today."

"They cling to the absurd idea that the Jewish people control the media, the economy, and the presidency and direct foreign policy to their whims."

Niiiice. And you erected that all on your own? Very impressive.

The that "the Jewish people" control the media, etc., etc., is indeed absurd, so I don't know why you are advocating it.

Everyone else seems to be advancing this: there is a lobby that exists within the United States of America that exists to pressure the US government to act in ways that are contrary to the USA's own national interest, and all for the benefit of a foreign country.

The further argument is that the actions of this lobby group produces outcomes that are not in the national interest of either the USA ***or*** Israel and, as a result, the policies being advocated by that lobby should be opposed.

The idea that this involves a push-back against "the Jewish people" is ludicrous, if for no other reason that a very large chunk of that lobby isn't, you know, Jewish.....

The fact remains that there are a number of countries in the world which are of equal size to Israel in population, have more of those natural resources valuable to America than Israel, have historically been more valuable allies to America or have the potential to be more valuable to America as allies, and which do not have the liabilities to America which Israel presents to America.

So, what really justifies the amazingly beneficent subsidies America grants directly to Israel and to other countries (subsidies to Egypt, etc., to buy peace for Israel) for the benefit of Israel?

I would like to see a more reassuring, more convincing, more realistic assessment of the balance sheet which, the author seems to assures us, is really more balanced than racists and anti-semites would have us believe.

I would also like to see less demonization of those who ask to see the balance sheet. One does not display the antipathies of a Nazi simply because one asks about the balance sheet -- but that is how one is portrayed and smeared if one does have the temerity to ask about the balance sheet.

It would be nice if Americans could talk openly and without fear of reprisal about America's foreign policy vis-a-vis Israel. That would be a better start to countering what the author claims are lies about the American-Israeli relationship. Only one side of the argument on this topic is acceptable, the other argument is so heinous as to be untouchable.

more important to the US than ISrael. Israel produces more scientific knowledge than the entire Muslim world put together. Yes, so they have oil, big deal. What else? They also have over 1 billion Muslim people who would love to see America fall and looted. Israel is one of the few countries that WANTS America to be strong and healthy and prosperous, because that helps Israel. The Muslim world wants America to weaken and fall so that can overrun and loot it the way the Muslims overran and looted the entire Middle East and North Africa and Central Asia.

Australia.

JAPAN for starters..

So how does the formulation of your fellow-traveler above who attributes the outcome of a congressional election to the mobilization of "all the Jews in America" fit into your thesis that ANON45 is pushing a straw man. Complaining about "all the Jews in America" mobilizing to defeat an anti-Israel candidate certainly sounds to me a lot like "the absurd idea that the Jewish people control the media, the economy, and the presidency."

As another author has written elsewhere: "Despite frequent mentoring to Palestinians by liberals in the West to rely on nonviolent tactics of resistance, these extraordinary hunger strikes (Palestinian human rights group Adameer recently tweeted that it was aware of 24 such hunger strikers) have been met with silence or indifference in both Israel and the West."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/03/201232082829104638.html#.T2uXBoa6pEc.

. . . and it is frustrating for some Americans to have to acknowledge that most Americans are ignorant, unaware, misguided and misled in regard to this special relationship.

Funny how founding fathers sound like Ron Paul, huh?

I wonder what the press would have said about them: "Nutters!"

because he cannot get past the rhetoric of America's Founding Fathers in the year of Our Lord, 2012. While the Founding Fathers were great men with extraordinary foresight, even they are behind the times on more detailed policy issues - and Ron Paul won't do anyone a favour by resembling them on that front.

A more comparable analogy would have had Ron Paul of the the late 18th century itching to burn some witches.

Does bibi speaks good English?

Its all part and parcel with the usual rehashing of anti-semitic conspiracy theories. Why bother coming up with something new when the old crap suits you just fine.

Instead of referring to "Elders of Zion" of old, now the same old cliches get new life by inserting AIPAC or Jewish Lobby. Of course anyone Jewish gets lumped into it as a form of guilt by association.

Why bother with facts, they have never serviced those people before. Why start now?

Alicja,

For Nasser and quite a few others to shed their prejudices would mean to open their minds, when it comes to them Jooz, Nasser and his ilk care liitle about truth. They are so blinded in their prejudices (even when they claim to have none!), that historical truth is just a bothersome inconvenient barrier that should be trampled at will.

A little knowledge of American history, a little knowledge of the State Department's Real Politik and the disasters it wrought, would soon convince anyone with an open mind as to is the more aggressive, who is playing the unfortunate victim AND above all... Why is it that the oil exporting Arab World, whose despots are pocketing Western billions are only paying lip service to the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank and it is Europe and the US who are pouring the billions into Palestine. What other country, autonomous region, etc. employs over 10% of its population in "government service?"

Even if the facts were presented to these fine specimens of mankind, their prejudices will still convince them that no Jew alive can be right. Israel started as a socialist country (hear that progressives?!?!?), it veered politically (but not economically) to the right when the left's tactics only resulted in further anti-Israel terror!!! Even now over 50% of Israelis favor a 2 state solution, less than 10% of Gazans accept it!

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, instead they got 1000 of rockets rained upon the border towns.

Now, you bigots, my blood is as red as yours, my life is worth not an iota less than yours, and if you come to hurt me or my loved ones I'll fight back just as you would if you are anything other than spineless, thoughtless, ignorant fools. The fact remains that there could easily have been two separate countries in 1947, when Ben Gurion accepted the UN's Partition Plan, THE ARABS DID NOT!!! Within hours of becoming a country in 1948, Israel was invaded by 5 Arab armies. Dem Jooz were outnumbered, out armed, but they fought back without American weapons and repelled five Arab armies, in 1956 the Arabists in the State Department were rooting for Egypt and in spite of the US State Department, dem Jooz defeated Abd'el Gamal Nasser. In '67, they won the war again and became a regional power. In '73 they were attacked again by their loving neighbors (outnumbering dem Jooz and armed with Russian, French and British weapons), the Israelis had American, French and '67 captured Russian weapons and again they repelled the aggressors.

Israel is sick of war, we want peace, but not at the price of our lives! We Jooz, have been conquered and scattered throughout history by the mightiest empires. Jooz are still here, the once glorious empires are mostly remembered by the beauty of their ruins...

Well done.
You show how dismantling Aaron David Miller’s arguments can be a thoroughly enjoyable exercise.
I hope Aaron Miller will learn from your post and have fun while reading it.

Charli12,

And who are "all these types of people?" Do you mean those nefarious Jooz?!?!?

Perhaps there is still some hope for America's future!

AIPAC is the least diverse organization on the planet. What really gets me is how you describe America as gripped by "malaise." If only it was malaise-- wait til this spring and summer, when the protestors hit the streets. I think the words you will be using are rage, anger, etc.

Last weekend, Barack Obama dutifully reported to the AIPAC meeting and pathetically begged his audience of wealthy and disloyal U.S. citizens to be patient with him as he needs more time to prepare to attack Iran. To protect his reelection chances, Obama in essence explained, he needs to keep pursuing sanctions against Iran to prove to his party’s Pacifist/peace wing that he has exhausted all non-military options. (This, in itself, is a certain sign of Obama’s innate duplicity as there obviously is no Pacifist or pro-peace wing in the Democratic Party — nor is there an American peace movement — unless there is a Republican president in the White House.)

“Please, please, please — oh, please!,” the enslaved-to-AIPAC Obama pleaded, give me a few more months to fool the American electorate with talk of effective sanctions and then I will go to war for you against Iran and provide as many of America’s soldier-children as necessary to be killed for the Israeli theocracy.

Like I said in the very first comment: Capitol Hill is not subservient to Israel.

Capitol Hill (and Admin.) are subservient to the right-wing militant Likudnik subset of Israeli polity.

How do you explain the pilgrimages to AIPAC?

Furthermore, it ain't just our Politicos.

It's also the media: e.g., former Times executive editor Max Frankel acknowledged the impact his own pro-Israel attitude had on his editorial choices. In his words: “I was much more deeply devoted to Israel than I dared to assert.” He goes on: “Fortified by my knowledge of Israel and my friendships there, I myself wrote most of our Middle East commentaries. As more Arab than Jewish readers recognized, I wrote them from a pro-Israel perspective.”

Ref: Max Frankel, The Times of My Life And My Life with the Times (NY: Random House, 1999), pp. 401?403.

For more details see the view of this senior ex-CIA head of the Osama Bin Laden Desk:

http://non-intervention.com/1035/slavery-in-america-you-bet-listen-to-obama-and-romney/

Nah just overconfidence!

This is what G. Washington said -- and it contradicts Miller's view.

Where is the ad Hominem? You do not have an argument so are casting others' legitimate arguments as ad Hominems when they are not.

Do you have an argument?

=== President Washington said ====

"The Nation, which indulges towards another an habitual hatred, or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave.

It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests.

33 So likewise, a passionate attachment of one Nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite Nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest, in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter, without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite Nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the Nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained; and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld.

Which is why Washington was the finest mind of the EIGHTEENTH CENTURY. Three hundred years later, it doesn't fly.

I know you are just rehashing the stupidity of Ron Paul as your POV, but frankly it didn't really make sense back then (our first foreign conflict was under Jefferson) and it sounds even dumber now.

Alternatively, one could argue that we are the target of Islamofascism because of our support of Israel.

If we did not give Israel arms (with which they kill civilians, in contravention of our own Arms Export Control Act) maybe them muslim infidels would not attack us.

I think this is what Washington was getting at in the quote above.

Jefferson sent the US navy to fight the Muslim Barbary pirates in 1801. The first war the US was forced to fight after it got independence was with the Muslim pirate states of North Africa. Why do you suppose that was?

The US did not start arming Israel until it was in US's interest to do so, only after 1967 because ISrael had defeated the SOviet-backed Arab armies using French planes and British tanks. Today Israel makes its own tanks and missiles and UAV drones, and could make planes if it were worth doing, which it is not. Actually, the US arms the Arab states far more than it arms Israel! US arms sales to the Muslims states are at least 3 times greater than what it gives or sells to Israel! Israel is surrounded by states that have US F-16s and F-15s and M-1 tanks in Egypt for example.

What side are you on?

There is no more islamofascism than zionistofascism : the truth is that you have stolen a land that you had never owned...Israel mistreats the palestinian people, the real indigeneous one, and replaced it with immigrants coming from all over the world who according to common sense should never had been allowed to emigrate there...The terror Israel inflicts to civlians in both Palestine and neighbooring countries is unmatchable...

The Muslims believed that the Mediterranean was a Muslim lake and that they could shake down every ship, and take infidels captives. That went on until finally the US and the Europeans defeated the Barbary states and soon occupied the Maghreb (North Africa), which them became European colonies.

But the war between Islam and Christendom has gone on since Muhammad and his Caliph Umar burst out of Arabia with their new religion and conquered virtually all the lands between China and France, including Spain, SIcily and others. The Muslim side began to really lose in the 17th century and went into decline as the West rose in technology and power. SO now the Islamic forces have begun to rise, especially with the rise of Shia Iran to resume the struggle with the West. But this is only the continuation of a 1300 year old struggle for whose ideas will dominate, western or Islamic. The outcome remains to be seen.

Oh, sort of like France and Spain and UK thought of the caribbean as their lake?

Is this a muslim-only disease?

Check your racism.

So what do you think we should about all these evil muslims?

Maybe put them on trains and concentrate them? They seem to be sub-human from your description.

into the West and the US in the first place. It was LIBERAL JEWS like Senator Jacob Javits of my New York that pushed for the change in the immigration laws in 1965 that opened the floodgates of third world immigration into the United States. Now I am an immigrant myself, born in the refugee camp in Germany after WWII. We were waiting to go to Palestine, when Truman opened the door to some 50,000 of us, and so we came to Brooklyn instead of Beersheba instead. But we were grateful to the US. We were homeless. My parent's first families were murdered, and they were Holocaust survivors, and their own homes and properties were gone and occupied by others. Many surviving Jews trying to go back to what was left of their homes in Poland were killed or chased away. So about 200,000 Jews were in DP camps such as the one I was born in. And General Patton, now the Governor of Bavaria, hated JEws and loved Nazis, and kept barbed wire around our camps until the Jewish community forced Truman to get Eisenhower to fire Patton, who died in a hospital from a traffic accident in Gemany on his to the airport on his way back to the US.

I was born a refugee but the US gave us sanctuary and freedom, for which we were eternally grateful. To the Muslim immigrants in America feel the same way? They have 56 Muslim states, including 21 Arab states. Why are they here? Could the Palestinian refugees have gotten citizenship in Lebanon or the other Arab states? There was no Jewish state yet when I was born. There is only half of one now.

The Muslims in America are promotoing anti Israel and anti-Jewish propaganda and some of them are a menace. Not all, by any means, but their religion has an imperialistic bent which says that Islam must triumph using any means necessary. That is why Muslims pose a threat, IMO.

It was Arab imperialism under the cloak of Islam, versus Western imperialism under the cloak of Christian civilization. I oppose all imperialism regardless of the source or whatever it cloaks itself under. But certain things should be considered "settled." The conquest of the Americas by the Europeans, Spaniards in the south, English speakers in the north, have created facts on the ground like the US, Canada, Argentina, Australia in the east, etc. But there are also 56 Muslim states. They are facts on the ground. And there is one very tiny Jewish state now, and it should be fully accepted as a FACT too! After 63 years you would think it would be, but go tell that the Muslims! And tell the Muslims that their Sharia cannot be extended beyond those 56 states nor will Israel be eradicated unless they want total war and destruction. At some point things have to be accepted as "settled law."

More or less agree -- only I think a theocratic state like Israel has no business expecting support from the US, a state based on separation of church and state.

Fine -- let Israel fight its own battles. Not my problem.

No US blood or $ for anyone.

secular western democracy that also happens to be the homeland of the Jewish nation. Jewish nationhood goes back at least to King David of Judah. Even Christians made a point of tracing the descent of Jesus back to a Judean king! He was a King of a state. A nation. In exile, the Jews were characterized as just another religion, but in fact, Jews are a tribal nation with a tribal religion, no different than the Apaches or Navajo or any other tribe.

But the modern State of ISrael is based on mostly British Common law, and makes use of residual Ottoman laws as well as British ordinances dating back to pre-state periods. Halacha or ancient Jewish law has only a very minor role in the life of the JEwish state. Too minor for the taste of the 20% or so who consider themselves pious (hassidic) or otherwise religious Jews. Most Jews today, like most Christians today, are mostly secular and give only lip service to certain mininal Jewish practices. Many don't even do that much.

in the halls of the UN in 1946.Once the USSR in the UN backed the idea of recognizing a Jewish state, because Stalin was hoping it would become a Jewish communist state, Truman and the US had no choice but to beat the Russian to the punch. How would it look after the Holocaust if the Soviets backed a Jewish state, and the West, including the US balked? As Abba Eban said, once he saw that the USSR in the UN Security COuncil had no objection to a JEwish state in Palestine, he knew that the Zionist cause had prevailed. The US then raced to beat the USSR to actually recognize the JEwish state after the vote in General Assembly was over. AGain, it was for US interests, not for Jewish interest. A Jewish communist state with a harbor in Haifa in the middle of the Mediterranean would have give the Soviet Union a tremendous base of operation. But, as it turned out, Israel chose to go western and democratic and then Stalin turned on the JEws and threw his support to the Arabs when he felt the Jews had betrayed him. Remember it was Czechoslovakia (thanks to Stalin) that provided the Jews with arms to defend their new state, not the US. The US had an arms embargo on both sides, and often stopped arms from being smuggled out of the US to Israel back then.

point?

This is what the Israeli Education Minister says about Israel:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/01/08/yes-there-is-apartheid-in-israel/

Jewish self-righteousness is taken for granted among ourselves to such an extent that we fail to see what’s right in front of our eyes. It’s simply inconceivable that the ultimate victims, the Jews, can carry out evil deeds. Nevertheless, the state of Israel practises its own, quite violent, form of Apartheid with the native Palestinian population.

The US Jewish Establishment’s onslaught on former President Jimmy Carter is based on him daring to tell the truth which is known to all: through its army, the government of Israel practises a brutal form of Apartheid in the territory it occupies. Its army has turned every Palestinian village and town into a fenced-in, or blocked-in, detention camp. All this is done in order to keep an eye on the population’s movements and to make its life difficult. Israel even imposes a total curfew whenever the settlers, who have illegally usurped the Palestinians’ land, celebrate their holidays or conduct their parades.

[............]

Apartheid is defined therein as an international crime that among other things includes using different legal instruments to rule over different racial groups, thus depriving people of their human rights. Isn’t freedom of travel one of these rights?

In the past, the US Jewish community leaders were quite familiar with the meaning of those conventions. For some reason, however, they are convinced that Israel is allowed to contravene them. It’s OK to kill civilians, women and children, old people and parents with their children, deliberately or otherwise without accepting any responsibility. It’s permissible to rob people of their lands, destroy their crops, and cage them up like animals in the zoo. From now on, Israelis and International humanitarian organisations’ volunteers are prohibited from assisting a woman in labour by taking her to the hospital. [Israeli human rights group] Yesh Din volunteers cannot take a robbed and beaten-up Palestinian to the police station to lodge a complaint. (Police stations are located at the heart of the settlements.) Is there anyone who believes that this is not Apartheid?

Jimmy Carter does not need me to defend his reputation that has been sullied by Israelophile community officials. The trouble is that their love of Israel distorts their judgment and blinds them from seeing what’s in front of them. Israel is an occupying power that for 40 years has been oppressing an indigenous people, which is entitled to a sovereign and independent existence while living in peace with us. We should remember that we too used very violent terror against foreign rule because we wanted our own state. And the list of victims of terror is quite long and extensive.

We do limit ourselves to denying the [Palestinian] people human rights. We not only rob of them of their freedom, land and water. We apply collective punishment to millions of people and even, in revenge-driven frenzy, destroy the electricity supply for one and half million civilians. Let them "sit in the darkness" and "starve".

Employees cannot be paid their wages because Israel is holding 500 million shekels that belong to the Palestinians. And after all that we remain "pure as the driven snow". There are no moral blemishes on our actions. There is no racial separation. There is no Apartheid. It’s an invention of the enemies of Israel. Hooray for our brothers and sisters in the US! Your devotion is very much appreciated. You have truly removed a nasty stain from us. Now there can be an extra spring in our step as we confidently abuse the Palestinian population, using the "most moral army in the world".

[Translated by Sol Salbe]

SHULAMIT ALONI is the former Education Minister of Israel. She has been awarded both the Israel Prize and the Emil Grunzweig Human Rights Award by the Association for Civil Rights in Israel.

anyone can freely say anything, or write anything, and not get jailed, unless it is a military or national security secret. So ISraelis can crtiicize their government every bit as freely, and I would even more so, than can Americans criticize their gov't. Free speech is the hallmark of democracy. So you can quote to me basketfuls of Jews who criticize Israel or Jewry, etc., and all it means is that unlike in most Muslim countries, the Jewish state is a free and democratic country where anything goes as long as it doesn't directly harm national security.
In Israel, only criminals and those who are working to promote terrorism, and actual terrorists themselves, sit in jail. No one in Israel is in jail just for speaking against the state or even for being antisemitic! There is not even a law against Holocaust denial in Israel as there is in Germany and Austria!

the "indians" nor aborigenes of Canaan! Even the Canaanites were not indigenous. They supplanted a previous people after 3000 BC. And Hebrew is the only remaining Canaanite language, whereas Arabic is a foreign import brought in the by the Arab conquerors in 638 AD, along with their new Muslim religion. So please stop spreading these old discreditedl myths. They don't promote serious dialogue.

Jews and Arabs are really the same:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/25/medicalscience.genetics

to Israel because of self-interest, and also arms Israel's enemies because of self-interest. Next to Iran, the greatest military threat to Israel comes from the US F-16s, F-15s, Harpoon missiles, M-1A tanks that the US has supplied to the Arabs. Obama signed a $60 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia just last December, and a deal to sell Turkey, no longer a friend of Israel, some 100 F-35 fighters. So the US does what's in its own economic and geopolitical interests, and getting rid of Israel is not in the US interest, because in the final analysis, Israel is the only western democratic ally the US has in that region that it could count on if push comes to shove. Getting rid of ISrael would be like getting rid of Britain. It would be just be more surrending of allies to the Islamofascist enemies. Remember, the US is the TARGET; Israel is just barbed wire to be brought down or stepped over. It is not the end goal of the Jihad. The end goal of the Jidad is to bring down Western Civilization and turn it into a Muslim caliphate under Sharia law.

Looks like crazy Jihadi Zionists are no better:

http://jezebel.com/5871293/orthodox-israelis-spit-on-whorish-8+year+old-girl-for-going-to-school

An American girl attempting to walk to her Jewish school in Israel is subjected to daily taunting and physical intimidation so bad that she says it makes her afraid to go to school. Her tormenters aren't fellow children, but rather adult men upset by the presence of the "immodest" girls attending school in their ultra-Orthodox neighborhood. And now, the town's male residents are clashing with police and media over their the gender integration they say insults their faith. Eight-year-old girls can be such whores.

The case of 8-year-old Naama Margolese, who was born in Chicago, has upset some Israelis, and for good reason. She says she's afraid to walk to her all-girls school in Beit Shemesh, near Jerusalem, because of taunting from Ultra-Orthodox men. They spit on her, call her a whore, throw rocks, and shout at her. As a result, Naama says her "tummy hurts" when she walks to school.

Not that it should matter, but Margolese isn't full glitzing down the street in a Nicki Minaj outfit, gaily skipping off to Toddlers & Tiaras & Kippahs school during these impromptu stoning sessions; she's walking to an Orthodox all girls' school in her uniform, which consists of a long skirt, a high-necked, long sleeved shirt. But the clothing of Naama and her classmates, modest by nearly any other standard, are not modest enough for the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish men of Beit Shemesh. Parents attempting to escort their daughters to the school are also subjected to the same treatment.

In recent months, tension between the secular, Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Beit Shemesh have escalated, especially with the erection of an all-girls school the Ultra-Orthodox say is encroachment on their beliefs. The community has erected signs warning sidewalk walkers to remain separated by gender and deployed "modesty patrols" designed to make sure the natural sluttery of women is kept in check. (I feel like I've heard this one before...)

The Israeli government doesn't support segregation of the sexes or the agenda of the Ultra-Orthodox, but, according to MSNBC, they have "turned a blind eye" to much of the community's practices while awarding them generous government subsidies, as the minority fundamentalist population typically kept their hands (and rocks) to themselves. But now that the group, which comprises about 10% of Israel's population, is becoming more aggressive, police have stepped in, and they've also found themselves the objects of the group's derision. Yesterday, protesters pelted police with rocks when they attempted to remove illegal gender segregating signs, lit some garbage cans on fire, and called a news crew who attempted to film the signs "anti-Semitic." Talk about stoning the messenger.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has spoken out strongly against the conduct of Beit Shemesh, saying that those responsible would be stopped and arrested.

Fringe group responds to minor perceived trespass on their ideology with violent overreaction that escalates into something totally out of control that ends up harming everyone involved? People are called bigots because they dared identify something as bigotry? The world continues apace.

Germans and French are really the same. Irish and Welsh are really the same. Poles and Russians are really the same. Etc. Your argument is ridiculous. The Arabs have PLENTY OF Land. Tiny Israel is Jewish land, and the Arabs living on it are no different than Jews living on German land.

Let me see here. According to you, Arabs have been in Palestine for close to 2,000 years. But they are not yet indigenous. My current dictionary is obviously faulty. I wonder it AIPAC sells Israeli friendly dictionaries?

or 1700 years. Some even before. SO when do Jews become "indigenous" to Germany? Jews were in Iraq for 2,500 years, When do the IRaqis give them a Jewish state of their own? When does Germany give its Jews a state of their own? Why should Arabs have another Arab state on Jewish soil? What gives Arabs the right to claim any land outside of Arabia?

We have been saying that for over 1400 years. Arabs (and our holy prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him]) is from the lineage of Ishamael, the Jewish people are from the lineage of Isaac.

Muslims say Abraham had two sons, Jewish people have been denying this up till now and say there was only one. Now science proves Muslims to be correct.

After Abraham, all prophets came from his lineage. First from the line of Isaac e.g. Jacob, Joseph etc but when Jewish people corrupted their books and refused to obey the word of Allah, the final messenger came from the lineage of Ishmael (the elder son of Abraham).

There is no messiah to come. Only the anti-Christ. So don't be deceived. We do believe in the second coming of Jesus [peace and blessings be upon him] but he will come to reveal the truth.

other way around. Israel did not acquire any nuclear help from the US. QUite the opposite, the US opposed Israel's nuclear program, but was unable to stop it because there was no NPT at that time, and ISrael was not in violation of any treaty. But it was Jews who invented the atomic bomb FOR America in 1945, and so ISrael had plenty of Jewish physicists who knew all about it from day one. When the US refused to give Israel a treaty of alliance under Eisenhower, and after Khruschev threatened Israel with a rocket attack in 1956 for defeating the Egyptian army, Israel and France decided to collaborate for mutual reasons. France needed Jewish nuclear knowledge, and Israel needed French money and technology to build Dimona. The US was opposed and forced ISrael to submit to annual "inspections," from 1962-1969, until Nixon stopped the charade. As a result, the US pressed the UN to draft a Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty as a result of its failure to stop Israel, India and Pakistan from developing their own nuclear deterrents.

And American got Saudi Oil so Saudis should also be allowed to spy on us...is that your logic?

It's all part of the game.

It's a game that exacts consequences for those who get caught -- unless you happen to be a spy for Israel caught spying on the US.

I think they also feel that it is the natural and correct course for America, which -- were it the case -- would obviate the need for a Zealous powerful lobby.

It is the fact that what AIPAC spouts is unnatural and contrary to American interests that a powerful lobby is needed at all.

BTW, the original "Zealot" tribe were -- surprise -- Jewish. Wiki it

RespectableLady, you are truly moronic. Lobbying is what all organizations do when they want to get their agenda into the halls of congress.

You are truly ignorant as to the political process, your prior posts show you are more likely to swallow propaganda rather than discuss actual facts and you don't even bother to make a sensible argument.

I happen to think ALL lobbies skew democracy and are not needed, and sometimes harmful to most citizens. Including AARP and Teachers Union etc.

It's pretty crazy: I think our rep's should not get bribes for access.

Crazy old me liberal non-zionist Jew.

can join another tribe. Go to a Mosque and become a Muslim Arab. You won't be missed. Judaism without ISrael is like Christianity without Christ. Totally meaningless.

Really? If I am not a Zionist I am not Jewish? So no Jews existed before 1948?

just as there were Jews who could not live in their homeland because it was occupied by Arabs and others who resented and persecuted Jews living in the Land of Israel. It's still the reason why most Jews don't live in Israel, because 5.5 million Arabs are still occupying scarce Jewish land. Every day one reads in the Israeli press of Arabs attacking Jews living in Israel, Judah or Samaria. And being attacked from Gaza even though Gaza was totally cleansed of Jews over 6 years ago.

But sure, one can be an Arab living outside of Arabia, and one can be a JEw living outside of ISrael, but such people are called exiles in diaspora because they are living on other people's homelands.

Finkelstein and Silberman are wrong. Look up the findings of Devon and others for details. The "Bible Unearthed" should be burned and buried as that book is already out of date, just as is Arthur Koestler's "13th Tribe" book, which was proven wrong in recent years by genomic science and DNA analysis.

And if there was no Jewish presence, why does the Pharaoh Menerptah mention a people called "Israel" on his 13th century BC stele? There are a lot of anti-religious "JEws" in Israel making a living as renegades and minimalists, because the Arabs pay well for anti-Israel and anti-Jewish stuff, and these kinds of renegades will happily sell their people for money just as the brothers of Joseph sold him to the Ishmaelites into servitude in Egypt. But Israel is a democracy and you can write any pack of lies you want for the vast Muslim Arab audience, for money, and there is nothing the government can do about it. That's the price of democracy. It allows traitors and renegades to run wild. In Muslim countries, such people get their tongues cut out or their throats cut. That doesn't happen in Israel.

We have been saying that for over 1400 years. Arabs (and our holy prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him]) is from the lineage of Ishamael, the Jewish people are from the lineage of Isaac.

Muslims say Abraham had two sons, Jewish people have been denying this up till now and say there was only one. Now science proves Muslims to be correct.

After Abraham, all prophets came from his lineage. First from the line of Isaac e.g. Jacob, Joseph etc but when Jewish people corrupted their books and refused to obey the word of Allah, the final messenger came from the lineage of Ishmael (the elder son of Abraham).

There is no messiah to come. Only the anti-Christ. So don't be deceived. We do believe in the second coming of Jesus [peace and blessings be upon him] but he will come to reveal the truth.

Arabs are simply settlers and occupiers of Jewish land. Period.

CRESTTWO wrote:

"My personal favorite bits are where israeli 'defense' forces run an American girl over with a bulldozer, or where they shoot one of our citizens in international waters, and our politicians fall over themselves to apologize to the israelis for denting their equipment."

I never thought of this. Hell, if *France* did this to one of our citizens there'd be hell to pay.

Brilliant observation, if beyond pathetic reality.

So piercing in fact takes you beyond just laughing at Miller's article here to ... well, some actual anger at the bullshit. Those American citizens, after all, were Miller's *co*-citizens too.

Goes to the heart of it, really.

Does anyone dispute that American politicians roll over when Israel does something that if done by any other nation would send those same politicians stormin' the ramparts?

After all, Israel bulldozed Rachel Corrie into the ground and double-tapped Furkan Dogan to the back of the head, and..... the USA rushed to provide political cover for Israel regarding both of those deaths.

Heck, the Israeli Prime Minister at the time (Olmert and Netanyahu, respectively) received vastly more political cover from US lawmakers for those executions of US citizens than Obama himself received when he had Anwar al-Awlaki killed.

All I've heard about for the last decade has been "Rachel Corrie, Rachel Corrie." What was she doing in Gaza anyway? What business did she have there? She decided to become a martyr by standing in front of a moving tractor. Maybe if she'd been alive today she'd be standing in Toulouse, France in front of the apartment of that terrorist murderer who killed a bunch of children as well as muslim French soldiers. Rachel Corrie had no idea where she was or what she was doing. She was just trying to protect a bunch of terrorists who were happy to use to this idiot as a shield. Maybe she's in Islamic paradise servicing martyred suicide bombers.

JGARBUZ wrote:

"All I've heard about for the last decade has been 'Rachel Corrie, Rachel Corrie.' What was she doing in Gaza anyway? What business did she have there?"

For one, because as an American citizen she objected to Israel's pathological sucking of money out of the pockets of her fellow Americans so as to pay bulldozer drivers in what I suspect is your country to flatten Palestinian and Beduin houses.

But yes, the glee you find in the fact that you don't even have to pay your own bulldozer drivers to do so and can use our money instead, and your utter contempt for us being such suckers—to the point even of sneering at our deaths—is duly noted.

We have been saying that for over 1400 years. Arabs (and our holy prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him]) is from the lineage of Ishamael, the Jewish people are from the lineage of Isaac.

Muslims say Abraham had two sons, Jewish people have been denying this up till now and say there was only one. Now science proves Muslims to be correct.

After Abraham, all prophets came from his lineage. First from the line of Isaac e.g. Jacob, Joseph etc but when Jewish people corrupted their books and refused to obey the word of Allah, the final messenger came from the lineage of Ishmael (the elder son of Abraham).

There is no messiah to come. Only the anti-Christ. So don't be deceived. We do believe in the second coming of Jesus [peace and blessings be upon him] but he will come to reveal the truth.

You are indeed a respectable lady.I salute you.

the denial of the Bible too, and also means that Jews are to remain a landless, oppressed minority group forever until liquidated. Naturally, Arab Muslims are anti-Zionists because Muslim Arabs believe that only Ishmael has the right to rule over all lands. Islam is basically ARab imperialism under a religious cloak, just as Christianity was used as a religious cloak to conquer vast areas of land at one time. But the Jews never claimed any other land but this tiny land along the Jordan river.

Would oil prices go down? Would fewer Muslims emigrate to Europe and America? Would Jihad disappear? The only thing that happens if ISrael disappears is that a major ally of western civilization, what's left of it, will disappear along with it soon enough.

Islam without Muhammad. It means nothing. Judaism is totally pointless without the Land of Israel. The Arabs are trespassing on Jewish land while they have at least 21 other countries of their own. If they get off Jewish land, all problems will be solved.

It's also the Arabs' homeland -- It makes me so happy to hear that Jews and Arabs are really the same -- there is no master race --

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/25/medicalscience.genetics

JGARBUZ wrote:

"Judaism is totally pointless without the Land of Israel."

This seems to me to potentially be an incredibly consequential observation, very well stated, and to have a large following.

With all due respect then JGARBUZ I'd wonder if you'd expand on why you think thi is the case? And do you think it's following is indeed just large, or pretty much universal amongst the world's jews?

After all lots of other religions don't even consecrate any land at all, much less say that there's a religious "homeland."

And judaism was pretty fully formed before the Diaspora too, wasn't it? So didn't it just take for granted jewry could live anywhere and thrive? Or was it the opposite and it had been formed for so long in the Israel area that it became one with the land essentially?

At any rate, a powerful statement for sure on your part.

Cherokees are not the same! The Sioux have their lands, the Apaches their lands, and the Seminoles were totally deprived of all their lands. They may be "indians" but they are NOT the same! We Jews are related to Arabs ethnically, but we are NOT the same! SCots and Irish may be ethnically related but they are NOT the same. Israel is NOT part of the "Greater Arab homeland" as Arabs call the lands they occupied! Israel is Jewish land! Whether it is "holy" or not is irrelevant. I don't think ISrael is any holier than Hoboken, New Jersey, but it is still Jewish land regardless!

spirits. For whatever reasons, in the West, the Jewish books seem to have made a compelling argument for others to adopt the "single invisible God of Everything theory." It seemed over time to make more sense to many than having zillions of gods. Also the Jewish teachings of compassion, charity, better treatment of slaves, and hopes for eventual peace also appealed to the oppressed and downtrodden. Of course, the Hindus are perfectly satisfied with their having zillions of gods. So, the middle eastern invisible god of the Hebrews came to be adopted by hundreds of other tribes and nations over time including the Arabs with modifications made by their Arab prophet Muhammad.

But the Jews remained more or less with their same tribal religion, though modified by rabbis to suit the new environment of exile and having to live in other people's countries while our own was occupied by all kinds of non-Jews. At least half of what is called "Judaism" or the religion of the Jews has to do with Israel, or coming to ISrael in Passover from Egypt, or the destruction of our capital city Jerusalem with our Temple, and the story of the Maccabee guerrilla fighters who briefly recaptured the Temple and lit the menorah with a little sacramental oil that lasted 8 days, etc. So much if not most of what we call the "Jewish religion" is basically a tribal, land-oriented religion as are most tribal religions. Ours is not a "universal" religion like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, whatever. It is the religion of one small tribe that caught on and influenced the religious ideas of other peoples that came into contact with us.

JGARBUZ wrote:

"Ours is not a "universal" religion like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, whatever. It is the religion of one small tribe that caught on and influenced the religious ideas of other peoples that came into contact with us."

Well thank you for this and the rest of your kind answering of my question. Very informative.

It's an absurd arguement but I'm a sucker for the truth. If the monolithic Muslim world owned 31 Monopoly properties in 1947 but they owned a third of the thirty first property would your smart Semitic counselor tell you this?, "Heh, a third is a third, which equals 99% of the truth if the UN matters. I can sell this." I didn't think so.

But what if we can control the truth and the UN? Maybe than a third of the pie is just as sweet as a nation on a hill with a lollipop in its mouth.

Sometimes it's hard to swallow just how unjust and wrong Israel is. Or maybe I'm just not good at math. Jews comprised one third of Palestine's population in 1947. I reversed the ratio in my previous comment.

time ago. What good are they otherwise? If you don't use 'em, ya lose 'em. Thanks to Jewish-American Admiral Hyman Rickover, he built nuclear submarines for the navy to hide America's nuclear arsenal under the oceans, to keep the Soviets from being able to wipe them out in a sudden, surprise first strike! What Iran intends to do is secretly build up a first strike capability to take out Israel's nukes before they can even be launched. Israel now has a few subs, but they only house a handful of cruise missiles with nuclear warheads that could easily be shot down. Most of ISrael's nuclear deterrent is concentrated and vulnerable to being destroyed before they can even be employed. Iran is smart and knows what it'd soing. It also knows the US and the EU will not stop it with their sanctions, which will crack apart soon anyway as sanctions always do. The West has no morale left to oppose a relentless and clever Islamofascist enemy who never tires and never sleeps.

Tel Aviv is just a business center, like New York in the US. Jersusalem alone is the sole Jewish capital in the world. It has nothing to do with Arabs, except that Arabs live there just as Jews live in New York.

I can't live on their tribal lands even if they are now part of the United States. I'm a citizen of the US, and a Navajo is a citizen of the US, but while they can live in New YOrk, I can't go live on Navajo land without their permission. The fact is that 5.5 million live on Jewish land today, while hardly any Jews are left in the Arab countries. That's an undeniable, easily checked out fact.

We have been saying that for over 1400 years. Arabs (and our holy prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him]) is from the lineage of Ishamael, the Jewish people are from the lineage of Isaac.

Muslims say Abraham had two sons, Jewish people have been denying this up till now and say there was only one. Now science proves Muslims to be correct.

After Abraham, all prophets came from his lineage. First from the line of Isaac e.g. Jacob, Joseph etc but when Jewish people corrupted their books and refused to obey the word of Allah, the final messenger came from the lineage of Ishmael (the elder son of Abraham).

There is no messiah to come. Only the anti-Christ. So don't be deceived. We do believe in the second coming of Jesus [peace and blessings be upon him] but he will come to reveal the truth.

He also had a third wife, Keturah, and other children as well. But Ishmael was given lands EAST of his brothers, but the land of Canaan was promised to the lineage of Isaac and not of Ishmael. In the Bible, Ishmael and his mother Hagar were sent away so that they could not take Isaac's claim. Of course, the Quran changed the story.

I think this may help for some info on native people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_civil_rights

Arabs and US aid to Israel. What AIPAC managed to accomplish was to get the US to promise Israel back in 1982 a Qualitative Military Edge (QME). What this means in plain words is, that for every 3 planes the US sells to Israel's enemies, it will give Israel 1 superior version of the same plane.

Otherwise, the US would be arming Israel's enemies without balancing Israel's needs. This would force Israel to rely on non-conventional means of self-defense, such as preemption. IT would also mean that Israel would then have no contraints on selling its own capable military products to countries America is not happy with, such as China.

So all AIPAC has done over the last 3 decades is create a balance that the US defense industries and the US military can live with. They can sell arms to the Arab while still posing as Israel's "ally" politically.

Israel violates the Arms Export Control act so should have aid cut.

No US $$$$ for other countries' weapons...we need the $$$$ here.

Go buy your own Israeli weapons you weasel.

then I would have no problem with an aid cutoff to ISrael as well.

Yes, cut all military aid to Palestine....oh, wait, there is NONE.

I don;t care: cut all aid to anyone.

And compare the billions given to Israel w. that given to Palestine Genius boy.