FP: You've dealt with so many different U.S. ambassadors, within the United Nations and secretaries of the State Department. What is it that Americans get wrong about Russia? What mistakes do they make? For example, on Syria, I've many times heard back in Washington over the last year, "Well, the Russians are going to change their position this time" or "We really feel like they're going to change," and you have not changed your position. There was a misreading there perhaps.
Lavrov: Well, I cannot read people's minds, so I don't know why they were saying these things. By the way, when you talk to the serious professionals from the United States or Europe about Syria or about something similar in the Middle East, they all basically share the analysis which I presented to you. But somehow when they go public, they keep saying, "Assad must go; otherwise nothing will stop." They fully understand the dangers of spreading extremism in the region, and they fully understand the need for cooperation and to agree. And so I frankly -- United Nations experience is a very useful one for those who want to develop negotiating skills, because multilateral diplomacy is always challenging when you have to take into account the positions of so many players. In the Security Council there are 15 members; in the General Assembly there are almost 200 members. You have always to take into account the interests of so many, of so many states.
I mentioned Gorchakov, and one of his biggest achievements was the restoration of the Russian influence in Europe after the defeat in the Crimean War, and he did it without, as one of the Russian poets wrote -- Tyutchev wrote about him -- he did it without moving a gun. He did it exclusively through diplomacy, based on his wonderful and deep knowledge of the nuances of the politics of Britain, France, Italy, Prussia, Austria. That's an example. And I, yes, I even brought one quotation from Gorchakov regarding how to organize the world affairs. He wrote that "Universal peace is a basis for natural relations amongst states, and this basis ensures equality of all countries, big and small. Foreign intervention into the domestic matters is unacceptable. It is unacceptable to use force in international relations, especially by the countries who consider themselves leaders of civilization." I believe this is the first attempt to write a concept which later became the United Nations Charter. So I really admire this man, and he served great service to his country, and we are trying to promote his traditions.
FP: Your key experience professionally was your years at the United Nations. Many people are very critical of the United Nations today and suggest that it's lost a fair amount of its ability to help constructively solve problems. Do you agree that the United Nations doesn't play the role that it used to?
Lavrov: The United Nations is not, is not some animal which is on its own. The United Nations is the member states. And, first of all, the Security Council. It was not by just chance that the Security Council was created the way it was. Namely, these five permanent members. It was on the insistence of the United States that the permanent-membership institution was created in the United Nations, because the U.S. did not want to repeat the failure of the League of Nations, which did not provide for the special role to be played by big powers. The model which was chosen and endorsed for the United Nations, I think it is a working model and it is an efficient one. When people say that Russia, China veto a resolution and therefore the organization has been paralyzed, it is a distortion of the original idea of the founding fathers. The veto was introduced, again, by the American insistence to make sure that decisions to be taken which have direct influence on international peace and security, that these decisions are viable and implementable. It was clearly understood by those who wrote the U.N. Charter that if one of the great powers objects, then the decision would not really be made because it wouldn't work. That's basically the reason for this veto to be included in the charter. So when countries sign and ratify the charter, they accept this -- they accept the veto right. So the veto is not somebody's caprice. It's a part of the decision-making process, and if there is a veto, then by the charter the decision is not going to be effective and it is not going to be taken.
So when we speak about the efficiency of the United Nations, people normally mean only one thing: whether the Security Council supported the position of the West or not. That's basically it. Because the mass media is dominated by the West, and when a president of a Western country says, "This leader is not going to be running his country; that's my decision," and then the Security Council does not support a resolution on this issue. Then of course the media starts playing this theme of saying that the Security Council and the United Nations have been paralyzed and inefficient and so on and so forth. It is a game to a large extent, but of course the public attention is always given to some scandalous issues, conflicts, killings, murders, wars. Let's not forget that the United Nations is a system of almost two dozen organizations: electricity, civil aviation, maritime shipping, international health standards, international labor standards. So many things which we take for granted every day are being helped by the existence of the United Nations system in its specialized agencies. Unfortunately, it's not something which sells by the media.
FP: In recent years, Russia and China have increasingly voted together when there have been vetoes or the threat of veto. Does that make -- is China Russia's closest partner then?
Lavrov: Well, we are strategic partners with China. And I believe that the reason is -- I mean the reason why we see eye to eye on international issues is because we want the same things in international relations: democracy and the rule of law. The rule of law has been promoted by our Western friends exclusively for domestic policies -- at the level of nation-states. As soon as you ask them to discuss the rule of law internationally, they're not so eager.
FP: This is true, although many of them would say that Russia and China are working together at the Security Council because you have a shared mutual concern in making sure that you have the ability to impose authoritarian policies at home without any threat of intervention internationally.
Lavrov: Well, that's an explanation which probably suits the Western vision of Russia and China or the vision of those who would like to present Russia and China as a difficulty in international relations. We have been taking the position on the basis of our understanding of the situations and on the basis of the need to strengthen pluralism in international relations, to strengthen democratic rules in deciding on international issues and ensuring the supremacy of the law in international relations. And this is not liked by those who believe that they know better than anyone else how to qualify a situation in one country in the Middle East and the situation in another country in Africa and another country in Latin America. It is all from the past epoch.
We have to really get used to the fact that there are more than one center in the world politics, that the unipolar world never succeeded, that there are more growing, emerging economic financial powers and with economic and financial might also comes political influence. And that China has its independent view of the world and how it should be evolving. Russia has the same right and the same ability to be independent in its thinking, but independent does not mean isolationist. We want to be and will be independent in our foreign policy, but we are all in favor of promoting collective approaches to all these local threats and challenges. It is only on the basis of collectively developed decisions that we can find a sustainable way forward.
FP: So when people say you are our modern version of Mr. No because of this Russian use of the veto, you don't see that as a problem for Russia, the idea that ultimately the veto is a powerful tool but it is a negative tool?
Lavrov: On Syria we voted with quite solid partners -- not only China, India also voted with us. And Russia, China, and India, those are three players in the international arena which you can hardly ignore. You can also hardly ignore the United States as a player. And the United States did not shy away dozens of times to use veto alone with half of the voting members of the Security Council voting in favor of something. So -- and we are taking this quite realistically if you wish and philosophically.
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